Bitcoin Forum

To my knowledge, this is the first time that pictures of these coins have been released. I have been given permission to post these, so you guys looking now are the first to see them.

Look at this freshly minted 2BTC, 2oz silver coin with Adam Smith, father of modern economics:

Security Schematic: https://www.alitinmint.com/Images/Schematic.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/coin1.jpg

Heads:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/HeadsInCase.png

Tails (Simulated Bitcoin Address):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/TailsInCase.png

Feedback welcome!

well genius, you might want to upload the picture somewhere people without Atilin email addresses can access

Oops. Wrong link. Sorry about that.

Lol, no prob i figured it was probably an accident. good to see you are mature enough to handle sarcasm. i like you already.

Here it is:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104034666/photo%20%2810%29.JPG

thats pretty badass man. nice job

I didn't make it actually. A friend of mine did.

He made 600 of these. They will have 2 BTC embedded along with 2 oz of fine silver. He is a presidential sculptor and only makes limited editions.

The coins will have the private key engraved on the edge of the coin which will be hidden completely by a tamper-proof case. A proprietary cipher system allows verification that the case matches the bitcoin address engraved on the tails side of the coin. No more cheesy holograms. The case will ensure the private key is hidden. All coin cases are signed and numbered by the artist. Case is custom made and is similar to other clear/tamper-proof cases seen with other collectible coins. Bitcoins embedded will be cold stored. You do not have to trust a central authority with these. Bury it in the ground and in 1000 years it will still be good!

A portion of each sale will be donated to the Bitcoin Foundation as well. These coins will be available at the next Bitcoin Conference in 2014. A limited amount of them will be available in November 2013 so if you are interested let me know and I will pass your info on. Remember, only 600 of these will ever be made in silver and this is the first coin and is a first edition. The artist is planning 50 different coins to be made over the next 3-4 years prior to the block reward reducing to 12.5 BTC.

Are you suggesting you've successfully achieved unbreakable physical security?

When you engrave characters to metal, this changes the metal's shape, making the characters clearly readable with pretty much any sort of reflective radiation.  The tamper proof case may look great but what if tampering is unnecessary because any physician can take it to work and see through the case with medical imaging gear?  An engraved secret in a metal coin is also going to be vulnerable to magnetic imaging techniques.


Not even the maker of the coin?

The case is made to obscure any form of radiation. The artist is actually a physician and is fully aware of that concern. (I specifically asked him about that myself.)

As far as the central authority you are correct, there is an initial trust factor, but in general, I am referring to the practice of having to continue to rely on a central authority to grant access to the private key (TitanBTC for example).

By the way, I have great respect for your work Mike. Thank you for what you have done for the bitcoin community. Your contributions have been substantial.

The coin looks great and I'm looking forward to see what you (and the artist, by extension) achieve!

Quite an achievement.  Many industries would be interested in this material.

Just curious, what would happen if a sonogram/spectrogram was used on the case (or a similar device) to gain access to the private key on the edge?

BTW I love the artwork.  :)

Is the coin 2 oz or 2 troy oz?

Not being able to hold just the coin itself without revealing the private key will make it difficult to assay the coin for the claimed silver content in weight and purity (if I am imagining the case enclosing the coin correctly). This indeed may present an issue.

All forms of physical coins (that I am aware of) have the ability to be held, weighed, and tested for the claimed metal content. This may pose an interesting issue for someone wanting to verify this.

Good questions.

They are 2 Troy oz coins.

As far as weighing them, I am told there are excellent (and relatively easy) techniques to assess the weight even when the coin is in the case. Most collectible coins that are highly valued are encased in tamper proof casing and it is common practice to analyze them even while in their cases. With that said, the coins can certainly be removed from the case, but as with any coins, physical bitcoins or otherwise, doing so certainly diminishes the value.

My understanding is that the private key is obscured somehow. I don't know if there is a metal ring around the coin (inside the case) to block attempts to scan the coin or what. I am told that the private key is laser engraved to be very small and would not be readable with typical imaging equipment. I suppose it's possible that MIT or NASA has some device that could get past the protections, but for the purposes of coin security for the average person, this system seems very trustworthy to me.

I doubt there are 100% perfect security systems anywhere in the world, and current examples of physical bitcoins are far from foolproof. The intent of most security systems tends to be to dissuade counterfeiters or thieves from making the attempt in the first place. In addition, the expense of utilizing a sophisticated imaging modality to lift the private key will likely be cost prohibitive for a very long time, far outweighing the value of the coin in the first place (just a guess). With that said, I realize that anyone manufacturing coins like these should take into consideration that bitcoins could be worth tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in the future, and that what would seem to be good security now could be foiled in years to come with the right financial incentive.

The nice thing about these coins is the high end artwork and architecture. This is a coin that even the numismatists of the world would appreciate and love to own and that has been a huge goal of the artist. They will be some of the rarest and highest quality physical bitcoins made in this era of crypto-currency.

Thanks for the prompt response.

You addressed the weight issue (which I believe there are mechanisms for getting the weight with traditional coin cases). But with a non-standard/proprietary encasing which I presume is what is proposed to be used for securing this coin (given it is a different type of security that is needed from traditional coins in cases) I am curious to know how it is planned to verify weight with this different type of encasing. I trust that the creator of this coin would not go down that road of putting less silver than is supposed to be in the coin.

You did not address the point of purity testing of the coins. Do you know if the case will allow for direct contact with the coin to do purity tests? If not, this can be a problem as users/collectors will not be able to verify for themselves the actual purity and will need to rely on the printed/stamped assay on the coin or a COA from the mint itself stating that it is indeed .999 fine silver.

Traditional coins have always allowed for at the very least a purity test from my personal experience.

Any idea what the pricing for said coins will be?

The coins look nice, but I actually prefer cheesy holograms to engraved metal.  Will you consider switching at some point?

It called lead.  Not that novel.

I'm sorry but I do not know the pricing. I will see what I can find out and get back to you all.

PMed you. Please pass my info on.

Mahalo  :)

I am surprised people by these coins considering the considerable counterparty risks involved.  Especially to an anonymous seller.

When these coins are released, you will find that the company is reputable. The artist is a known presidential sculptor and would not risk his reputation over these. I will get back with more information as I have it and am given permission to say stuff.

What format is the private key in, and how to redeem it?

How is engraving done - what is the production cost?

Will there be a bounty for a succesful, non-invasive readout of the private key?

Also what would worry me is who is going the engraving. I engrave my own coins inorder to maintiain security. I also have put a photo copy of mty passport on my website :) You might want to consider doing this.

The artist engraves them. Again, when the coins are officially released you will have an opportunity to look at his vetting. They have been saying that the coins will be available at the next Bitcoin Foundation sponsored conference. They are doing this project partially as a fundraiser for the Bitcoin Foundation. I am a lifetime member and have known the artist for almost 40 years. He has impeccable character and is world renowned. As with many things in the Bitcoin community, irreversible transactions forces trust to come at a premium. Those that are willing to buy in to something like this in the beginning and take a risk will be rewarded commensurate to that risk. This is not just some guy selling stuff as you will come to find out.

i dont really understand how it is related to digital money ???

Bernie Madoff was very well respected also;)

Love your URL by the way (@bit.co.in).

Forgot to mention that they will publish all of the bitcoin addresses online and a status for each coin. Around 50 have been pre-sold. I am buying 5 myself.

The piece looks incredible. Honestly it reminds me of commemorative medals (not even coins) produced by the US Mint. Maybe I missed this, but what are these going to be priced at?

Looks awesome!

If you bought 5 then you should know the price ???

Haven't actually purchased them. Just spoken for 5 of them. I'm sure they will be in the 500-600 range depending on the price of silver and bitcoin when released of course.

Just got a pic of their next coin that will be minted too:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/JoanOfArc.png

I don't know what the tails side will look like.

Do you have an update on these coins?  Delivery date, availability, list of addresses on line, etc?

Yes, I would like to see a picture of the tamper proof case when you get a chance.

(Hi Goat - long time no see)

Watching this one  :)

Why place an English face on the coin. That sort gives off the impression that the English are responsible for the creation of BTC.
Hmm?

Who do you want to put? An American? :D

These are coins backed by bitcoins. A little like silver certificates are dollars backed by physical silver.

Very attractive coin.

When will these (the first coin) be available?

Just added a schematic of the security of the coin to the first post...;^*

Looks like the first ones will ship sometime in November, first come first serve. I may be able to hook a few of you up for pre-orders.

No one. Satoshi has yet to be discovered so why associate BTC with anyone else?

incredible! i just need one

Looks like they will be taking pre-orders very soon. I'm excited to get mine.

I know some people have expressed concern that some mints are being shut down in that they have not been registered with FinCEN.

Alitin Mint is a registered money transmitter with FinCEN and is also licensed in the State of Missouri. I believe they are doing everything above board.

Goat and I want our coins!  We want coins!  We want coins!!!  ;)

What happens when one bitcoin is worth double the amount of that coin?

I can make them myself and collect the profit?

One bitcoin (about $1000) is already worth more than the silver (2 oz, about $40) in the coin.  You can make your own coins now if you are so inclined.  What the heck are you going on about?

The coins cost 2 BTC + a premium for the silver and profit to the creators.

Story:

Back in the day someone bought a one ounce gold coin with 1000 BTC pasted on it with a sticker.  IIRC at that time the value of the gold and the value of the 1000 BTC were about the same.  Now look at it!  The value of the gold has gone down and the 1000 BTC is now worth about one million dollars (give or take a few $100,000)!

Realize too that this is an art piece. JBA has pieces in high-end galleries and on display in museums. It is a limited edition of only 600, hand signed and numbered by the artist himself. I don't care whether its the art world, numismatic world, or the crypto-currency world, that is an extremely small edition! I suspect that these could be considered to be the "Honus Wagner" of physical bitcoins someday.

And for those that have difficulty with trusting a coin maker that is new or unknown, I know JBA personally and he would NEVER risk his reputation on coins that could be tainted or participate in any type of scam. He is a wealthy man already and has no need for any of that. This is going to prove to be a very rare opportunity for those that are able to obtain these coins.

What i am going on about, is the fact that you are saying this is backed by BTC. It is not. If it is an art piece, go for it. Sell the 600 to people that want a piece of history, but don't expect to be spending these at walmart a couple years down the road.

I'm worried a scammer is going to make 100,000 coins and sell them on amazon and ebay to people expecting them to be "that new bitcoin that everyones been talking about"

Fast forward 5 years and we have mini federal reserves printing physical bitcoin out of thin air.


Edit: Just decyphered the hand writing on the pic and realized they have a private key to redeem the actual bitcoin. That i am okay with, because someone cant just print 200 of them out of thin air.

3BTC

www.alitinmint.com

2.903btc for a 2btc coin if i'm not mistaken

so markup isn't incredibly off casascius's, plus this one seems to cost more to produce.

i might buy one. still waiting to see other people's reactions to it first.

Ah, I see why you were concerned.  If it does not have actual BTC engraved on it then yes, it would be a total sham.  Luckily each coin comes with 2 BTC of value engraved right on it so it can never be worth less than 2 BTC.  Given that, the 3 (or so) BTC price seems reasonable to me.

Can you provide more info on the details of their MSB registration?  I can not find them in the database by name or location.

They are licensed and owned by Ambicash, LLC. Pretty sure.

Looks beatiful, great piece of art!

Got mine.  They are beautiful!

Got mine. Here is one of them...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/2013AdamSmith.jpg

I am very pleased.

These looks nice, but I agree about the physical engraving - as 'cheesy' as a hologram sticker can look, I think it is still the best method to date. I think a lot of people who are into coins and collectibles will be fine with keeping it in a tamper-proof case and leaving it on a shelf, but many other people will be interested in a coin that they can physically handle - a neat token of bitcoin history, even if handling it does diminish value.

It seems your goal is to create high quality collectibles, that is fine in itself, but many highly collectible pieces become collectible after their inception. It feels less authentic to make this a business plan right from the start.

Honestly though, I don't mean to be negative, just my two cents! Obviously you've put in a lot of time and effort creating these pieces, best of luck with the project!

Can someone explain to me how this coin protects against me making a similar coin (for 2oz of silver = $40), placing it in a plastic case, slapping some holograms on it, and then claiming I have a 2BTC coin? It would appear that the physical value of the item is less than $100, but the BTC value is over $1500. Therefore if I can spend $1000 to forge a $100 coin/case, I have just made $500.

When buying items like this you must totally trust the source of the item.  I have to trust that in fact there is a private key on the coin.  If it is not there I am screwed.  This is true for the holographic sticker coins as well.  If you put out fake coins all you have to do is get people to trust you and then rip them off.  Yep.

We do need at least one wealthy individual, goat?, to pick one at random, break it open and report back the results here.  I say wealthy because they will destroy about 1 BTC in value just to test the seller.  

In this case, it means that it will be impossible to resell these. Because say "John" buys a valid coin (containing the 2BTC) and is perfectly honest, when he tries to resell it to me, I have no idea if John is selling a real coin or a fake coin. Therefore these are only useful for personal cold storage and can never be resold.

Very difficult to resell, probably.  I know people that will buy them from me because they trust me.  But then they might have a harder time because the chain of trust gets longer.

Received the remainder of mine...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/CoinsArrayed.jpeg

Again, I am related to the artist so passing these on to my children will have personal meaning for me.

Has anyone cracked open a random one to see if it has the private key?

I'm sure some of these coins will be redeemed.  If the private key isn't there, it will become public news pretty quick.  Why does everyone trust Casascius coins?  Since so many have redeemed, it is logical to assume that Mike Caldwell did defraud anyone.
   I bought an Adam Smith coin.  I can tell you that this would be difficult to counterfeit, so the chain of custody is far less critical for resale than other physical bitcoins.  Furthermore, making a custom made case such as they have would cost literally thousands of dollars for a mold...not to mention they have a very unique method of sealing the case that they haven't disclosed. Also, they have a proprietary cipher system for each case.  This means than you can take a photo of the case and coin, email it to the company... And they can determine if its legitimate vs counterfeit.  I seriously believe that if bitcoin reaches a value of $100,000, these coins would still be fairly safe from counterfeiting. 

BTC4.4008 each as of today

Where did you get that price?

15TJRaPX9zpBA8LVnbrCYPzrVzN3ixHNsC

Nothing comes up on blockchain

Hi,

I'm wondering if the OP or someone from Alitin Mint can help me. I am failing to see how this is much of an improvement from tamper proof holograms. I am not trying to cause drama, I simply am wondering if I am thinking about it wrong. I know since I also make physical cryptocoins this will likely look like an attack of some sort, but I am genuinely worried about the security of your product and the claims you are making of how they are more secure than original physical Bitcoins with tamper proof holograms. I have spent many hours lately doing different experiments on how to improve security on the original design of physical Bitcoins, but I don't see this as a very good solution.

I think you guys protected the coin from the obvious... radiation techniques due to the engraved private key, but it seems to me the only line of defense against retrieving the private keys of these coins is the hologram on the coin case. Which as we know can likely be removed showing no to little signs using acetone, just like the older coins that you claim are inferior to yours. That defeats the whole sales pitch here.. minus the very attractive coin artwork. The process a bad actor could take is:

1. Have a replica of the plastic coin case made in China for $1-5 each
2. Remove the coin from the packaging and retrieve the private key from the edges of the coin.
3. Remove the hologram from the original coin case using acetone showing no to little signs of intrusion.
4. Print new labels, QR code, whatever is inside the coin case and put them in the new replica case.
5. Place the coin back in the replica coin case you had made and seal it.
6. Place the hologram on the coin case back where it should be like nothing happened.

I know Alitin says "you can send a picture by email and find out if it is counterfeit or not". However, I have a hard time believing that they do not do this by checking a certain security feature they added to their hologram. This is something that can be easily implemented in the old design of physical cryptocoins.. just a coin and a hologram.

I am just failing to see how this is any better. It would require a little more work to tamper with than a normal physical cryptocoin, but it is still doable IMO. Even at today's prices there is likely enough incentive (cost versus reward) to do this... imagine when Bitcoin really goes to the moon. Please prove me wrong, the reason for my post here today is purely academic and I wish Alitin Mint all the best. I hope I can make it to the Texas Bitcoin Conference to talk about this with you guys face to face and in depth. I only live a couple hours away so I think I can come.. I just have to see if I can get off work.

Thanks

They said on there that was a simulated address for display purposes.

Exactly they need some type of authentication on the coin, otherwise anyone can just contract one of hundreds of coin makers and have this made.

Also 2 btc premium over intrinsic is very high. I see this as purely a fun collectible/gift, not investment grade product.

Actually they are just 2.92 BTC.

These are beautiful! I am about to order a few myself.

THat BTC quote came up in my browser. I refreshed couple hours later and it went to BTC2.92. Weird

I spoke with the CEO of Alitin Mint today.  He explained that their biggest concern has been the ability for someone to open the case, steal the private key, and reseal the case.  The case is virtually impossible to open without breaking, because the "braided seal" is stronger than the surrounding acrylic case.  The second consideration is the possibility of a thief breaking the case open, stealing the private key, and replacing it with a new case.  He said that in their attempts to break into the cases without destroying them, they almost always ended up marring either the insert, hologram or signature.   The creation of a new case, at least in the US would cost at least $4,000 - $5,000 for the mold.  I have some personal experience with plastic injection molding, and it not cheap.  The case has the Alitin logo on it, and anyone making a copy would have to go to considerable effort to get it exact.  I know it would be substantially cheaper in China, but a lot of their discounts are for large quantities of product.  Either way, it would require considerable effort and expense to get a duplicate case.
   Even with a duplicate case, a thief would need to figure out how to duplicate that seal, which is unlike any I have seen.  They said that it was a system they developed within their company, and they are not publishing how it is done. 
   Finally, they have a proprietary cipher system that is three layers deep.  They would not say what it is, because they think that if they divulged that information it would weaken their system.  They just reassured me that they could definitely determine if a case was theirs vs a counterfeit.  Maybe if you speak with them in Austin they will give you more info.
   The other question is whether or not the coins themselves could be counterfeited.  That would be a big challenge.  There are not very mints in the US that could make such a coin. If you took a coin like this to a mint and wanted to duplicate it, I doubt that any mint would for fear that they would be an accomplice to counterfeiting. They have strict protocols If you wanted to do it yourself, it would require substantial skill and many thousands of dollars of equipment to do so.  I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt that any thief would go to such extraordinary measures.  These coins are struck with dies and are not cast out of liquid silver.  If someone tried to cast one, it would look a lot different than a struck coin.
   If you contrast this to the security of physical bitcoins with holograms, I think there is no comparison.  It has been clearly demonstrated that solvents can lift off the hologram, and that it can be replaced with minimal effort and very minimal damage.  Also, the coins themselves are generally much less complex in design and would, I suspect, be less challenging to counterfeit.
   I feel really good about the security of these coins...particularly by the cipher system that they have in place which they claim is practically bullet-proof.

I don't think you would have to worry much unless the price per Bitcoin was $100,000. Even then it is not likely to happen. If you don't feel comfortable with it then just pass on it. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Can you elaborate on what Smoothie does. Ive bought coin from him.

ditto what did smoothie do?

Just in case any of you are going:

Alitin Mint is going to be an exhibitor, selling coins at the Texas Bitcoin Conference this week:

http://texasbitcoinconference.com/exhibitors

If you would like to see the Adam Smith coin in person.

Are these coins still for sale? I checked the website and it says limited edition, but it doesn't have any mention if they're sold out or not. Has anyone tried redeeming their coin yet? I'm considering buying a 1btc coin if this company is legit.

I logged on and it looks like they still have some of the 2013 Adam Smith 2 BTC coin (for 2.92 BTC) still available.

You can also order the 2014 Jeanne D'Arc 1 BTC coins right now.

And the 2014 Isaac Newton 1 BTC coins are not being sold yet.  

 

it's an ugly ass coin and does not represent a new standard

I think they are some of the most pretty coins I have ever seen. I have 2 Joan coins and they are stunning. Everyone I have shown them too loves them.

Personally I think it would look better without the antiquing around the design.  I personally like the Jeanne D'Arc better than the first coin, and its cheaper too.  I bought one of these. 

I hope the next coin has the non-antique look.