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Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Oh really?  As one of the few shipping ASIC vendors, I think that makes me qualified to speak on the subject, unlike you.  What have you done to bring a new product to the market from scratch?  Oh that's right... nothing at all.

People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.  Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Oh really?  As one of the few shipping ASIC vendors, I think that makes me qualified to speak on the subject, unlike you.  What have you done to bring a new product to the market from scratch?  Oh that's right... nothing at all.

1) create product [check]
2) bring to market [....uh....check?]
3) fulfill all pre-orders and sell from in-hand stock [i guess in two weeks...right now you are shipping preorders 2-4months later than initially 'promised'/suggested]
4) take preorders on next-gen product that is rediculously overpriced by today's standards, and promise to deliver it before the 110nm preorders are filled

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Can you point to a vendor that's doing number 3 now?  Are you seriously complaining that because demand is exceeding supply, it is somehow the vendors fault?

As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it?  If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics.  If you think it's over priced, don't buy it.  The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect. 

So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.

If it was overpriced (ed: the Monarch), people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics.  If you think it's over priced, don't buy it.  The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect. 

Oh really?  As one of the few shipping ASIC vendors, I think that makes me qualified to speak on the subject, unlike you.  What have you done to bring a new product to the market from scratch?  Oh that's right... nothing at all.

you cant be serious? asicminer, bitfury, and avalon are all selling units that are available immediately.

How loose your definitions are. ::)  By shipping, do you mean shipping stuff today for items that were ordered almost a year ago?  Shipping items in variations much different than what was ordered?  Shipping out hardware that mines for 2 days and then dies and have to wait 8 days for someday just to issue an RMA even after requesting in email, forums, shoutbox, etc?

There are no orders being shipped that were ordered a year ago, please stop spreading false information.  Our failure rate on hardware is less than 1%, much better than industry average, so again, your argument is invalid.  

There are no orders being shipped that were ordered a year ago, please stop spreading false information.  Our failure rate on hardware is less than 1%, much better than industry average, so again, your argument is invalid.  

Sorry, but if you consider 400 - 1000+ units shipped per day in this industry to be "few devices" you need to have your head examined.

Huh, Avalon, really?  Last I checked, they had imploded.

 Bitfury shows out of stock on all products.

ASICminer was order and wait last time I looked, but perhaps that's changed, I don't keep up with them much.  Please provide links otherwise?

Sorry, but if you consider 400 - 1000+ units shipped per day in this industry to be "few devices" you need to have your head examined.

For somebody who purports to ignore the prattle on bitcointalk you responded very quickly.  Please read carefully.  I said almost a year, not over 1 year.  If you're going to nitpick (which you do play semantics all the time) get it right.  My order was shipped with over a 1 year delay BTW.  I ordered in June 2012 and it shipped a few days short of 13 months.  Minirig owners did not see their full purchased hashing power for almost 14 months.

I doubt your failure rate is less than 1%.  Most computer hardware has rates exceeding that failure rate and admittedly no ASIC vendor would make such ridiculous claims.  I'm sure those ASICminer USB sticks are close to 2-3% and BFL is probably closer to 5% judging by what is said on the forums.  I can't fault the company or it's employees for having something break since we are human and the devices were assembled by human hands.  I can justly rail all I want for not getting a reply for 8 days for my RMA - the downtime cost me over 10BTC which is roughly $2k right now.  That is inexcusable.

I did choose to purchase from BFL willingly - it was my choice.  I choose to stick with the company and by the time I decided to ask for a refund your company redacted their refund offering.  I do like your product, but I have lost quite a bit of BTC (I paid in BTC) by buying it seeing as how I was suckered in believing the devices would ship sometime in October.....2012.   I believe you are currently the face of the company - if you can sleep with that at night...

Endless, repetitious, unsubstantiated bullshit...

So for an update on shipping times... As you might imagine, we get this question a lot. It seems like it would be a simple question to answer, but it's not. Let me describe the process so people can better understand why.


If you look at the current FPGA board in a Single or MiniRig, you'll see lots of capacitors, resistors, etc... about 350 little tiny parts attached to the board. Contrary to some of the conspiracy theories out there, all our boards are completely custom made, they aren't purchased from another manufacturer, etc... they are designed by us and made for us and us alone. As such, we are required to volume source every single part that goes on the board.


The ASICs are similar in so far as they also have nearly 350 components on each board. With the FPGAs, we sourced parts in the hundreds or low thousands at a time. For some of the ASIC parts, we are sourcing hundreds of thousands at a time which requires direct ordering & lead time dependancy from the respective manufacturers. However, for this first batch, we're mostly able to depend on available distribution stock from places like Mouser and DigiKey. Shortly after we get the first batch of everything in, we'll have our larger mega stockpiles arrive from other vendors and/or direct from the distributors, it's just the first batch that's going to be rough.


So, we've got he myriad distributors shipping thousands of little pieces to us, the PCB manufacturer sending us the bare PCBs, the HSF manufacturer sending the HSFs to us, the PSU manufacturer sending the PSU's to us, the case manufacturer sending the cases to us and most importantly, the fab sending the ASIC chips to us. All of these must arrive on time and as expected for everything to go off without a hitch. So far, so good.


When we made our announcement for shipping dates, we padded in some extra weeks in case of delays, and as we try to herd all these cats into one corral, our padding is slowly eaten up with mostly minor problems, but they all add up. With the bump in specs, we spent some time ensuring the power subsystem is over powered to accommodate the new and future power requirements - our chips are capable of higher speeds than what we initially intended to send out in the first batch, and they still have quite a bit of headroom; We decided to go ahead design the power subsystem to handle the maximum theoretical load of the chips. This means we can now crank the board up with some minor tweaking. Each chip is theoretically capable of operating at 1 GHz, we are running them at 500 MHz with the new specs... we will likely never see 1 GHz operations, simply because of heat density issues and a few other factors, but we have at least another 25% of headroom we can play with, if not more. Again, we built in a lot of padding into the specs, just in case something went wrong. We have basically padded everything we could in terms of estimates and that padding is what has allowed us to bump specs on short notice and keep our shipping times in line even in the face of delays.


Ok, so we have the cats herded, the specs staked out, now we have to actually build these things. As many of you know, we've purchased SMT machines to allow us to manufacture our own boards - and I have mentioned this before, but many have not heard it - we will not be using the SMT equipment to process our first batch of boards; we will be using the same house that did the pick and place for our previous generation products, which means we're still at the mercy of someone else for our first batch shipments. There has been some delays at that stage, but we have the padding, so it's not been a critical issue. There has also been some delays at the foundry, but again, we have padding, so it's not been a critical issue. We are also paying for an expedited run at the foundry (which does not come cheap) to keep our timeline up. All these things have to work out perfectly and our timeline is still looking good. However, if something does not work out perfectly, our timeline is going to slip, plain and simple. We've used up most of our padding at this point and we are still ironing out a few little wrinkles here and there. This has been a long explanation for a simple answer: I would like to tell you we are still on time or pretty close to it, because we are. However, I would also like to tell you that we are going to slip a couple weeks or so if anything goes wrong, and given the complexity of the issues facing us, I would say it's almost inevitable something will crop up between now and the beginning of November that we are not expecting; What that is, I don't know yet, but I would rather error on the side of caution, say the timeline is going to slip a little bit and then surprise everyone with an early delivery than promise an early delivery and not meet that promise. So that's what I'm doing and there's your answer. When I have more information, I'll let people know as soon as I can.

This thread starting good....and BAM !

Trolls come back again with BFL rage  ::)

Come on...

Um... yeah.  So this turned into a bit of a hate-fest.  Serious replies still appreciated, curious why the vendor pool, if mining is such a good investment, has basically dried up after early next year?

Um... yeah.  So this turned into a bit of a hate-fest.  Serious replies still appreciated, curious why the vendor pool, if mining is such a good investment, has basically dried up after early next year?

People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.

I think Avalon is working on something big

YiFuck's ego chi, maybe?

Anyway, I'm having the same thoughts that the next few months will decide which ASIC companies will be left standing. The race to the bottom has already started and soon we'll see how low $/GH will go.

Maybe we won't see so much "next gen" ASICs but just more energy-efficient respins of older designs. There seems to be a sweet spot between the 130-110 nm and 20-28 nm designs that is efficient enough, and cheap enough to make... just stick more of the chips on the same PCB, and they might still be cheaper to churn out en masse than the ones made with 20-28 nm process.

The next half year should prove to be interesting.

People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.  Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Oh really?  As one of the few shipping ASIC vendors, I think that makes me qualified to speak on the subject, unlike you.  What have you done to bring a new product to the market from scratch?  Oh that's right... nothing at all.

Can you point to a vendor that's doing number 3 now?  Are you seriously complaining that because demand is exceeding supply, it is somehow the vendors fault?

As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it?  If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics.  If you think it's over priced, don't buy it.  The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect.  

So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.

Huh, Avalon, really?  Last I checked, they had imploded.

There are no orders being shipped that were ordered a year ago, please stop spreading false information.  Our failure rate on hardware is less than 1%, much better than industry average, so again, your argument is invalid.  

Sorry, but if you consider 400 - 1000+ units shipped per day in this industry to be "few devices" you need to have your head examined.

Well schooled, Tehfiend. Excellent point by point refutation and good real world examples.

Expect to be labelled a troll by the boy in a bubble.

For those looking to buy hardware off the shelf, Black Arrow was contracted to do a Bullet Run by bobsag3 and a custom hardware mfg. that sells his miners on the GB forum. bobsag3 is the exclusive official US Reseller for Black Arrow and has put a lot of money down to get hardware in miners hands sooner rather than later.

I was offered exclusive pricing on this by bobsag3, a DZ MC co-op member/leader/admin/vetted miner host and GB Coordinator.

BA is guaranteeing shipping by November 1 or we get our money back.Thomas S. and I are holding onto the GB funds to make sure that refund funds are available, if necessary. In fact, we have an update from the factory that they expect to be shipping tomorrow night and bobsag3 expects delivery in Missouri by Wednesday/Thursday. If they fail to meet this Nov. 1 deadline we all get refunds but get to keep the hashrate.  :)  :)

These boards will be considered to be on the shelf and available for immediate sale/shipping by Wednesday/Thursday. I should have some more recent pictures to share on this shortly.

===

I'm offering fractional ownership of these boards to be hosted at a pro colo facility by bobsag3. I'm just the GB Coordinator and I'm truly hardware neutral as a longtime IT vet (except for BFL/Avalon; they're permabanned from our co-op). I'm not officially affiliated with BA, but they have stopped by to confirm that they're working with bobsag3.

To summarize: 15TH/s Black Arrow Bullet Run with Bitfury chips now instead of BA Minion chips in February.

$123 = 8.34 - 10GH/s + 1 month free hosting in Missouri + World's Lowest Hosting/Management fees at 2.75% every 2 weeks + UPS / Gas Generator backup protection + 3 remote admins + 1 local admin (all IT pros, including 2 Network Engineers and an EE) + custom built cabinet with extra Air Conditioner just for our co-op. This facility was designed by bosag3 and myself, a pro network engineer who's designed 4 different Research Lab server rooms.

Miners guaranteed to be shipping by November 1 or your money/BTC back.

Please see the 11th GB link in my sig for more details.

I keep seeing this spammed everywhere and have one question that keeps me from participating. Why would you sell these if they are profitable?

I was just replying to the question.

He was looking for a new Custom Hardware vendor, and we have one in our midst: a miner just like us that put his money where his mouth is and paid to get 15TH/s made to be delivered sooner, rather than later.

These are always at-cost or even below-cost deals I structure for GBs. I don't make a single satoshi from immediate GB share sales as the extra funds go into UPS protection and co-op facility improvements. I'm trying to pool buying power so us little guys can get Institutional Pricing and exclusive deals like this.

I was once scammed by ASX Project (see the #4 sidebar FAQ at: http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmining ) and I fell for BFL's BS when I was a noob. I'm here to help others have better experiences than I did when I started.

For me: personally, I eventually receive 0.25-0.37% of the 2.75% hosting/management fees once the miners arrive and are running, for coordinating all this and running the co-op. I would definitely say that is a very modest fee for the value of my work. I actually have no skin in these particular Rounds myself as far as shares but that's just because I have so many pre-orders in already, all over the place.

Because I have more than enough for myself to make a tidy profit, and I still make money on having all the boards hosted with me. Just because I am not as greedy as others does not mean I am doing this at a loss :)

Yeah and I was asking a genuine question :D. I'm looking for the catch and can't find one which of course most people would find alarming. I'm not saying "true believers" don't exist but they are very rare and the number #1 choice of clothing for wolves :P.

This just raises my alarm but I think I will look into this more and maybe throw a few BTC in to see how it pans out since you guys have been pretty tenacious in defending any accusations or concerns...

Im more than happy to answer any questions or concerns, as is zombie. We try not to have too much of a life outside the forums :)

One quick question, is the $123/share price tied to the exchange rate or fixed? I guess I probably should post this in an appropriate thread but oh well O:)

For those looking to buy hardware off the shelf, Black Arrow was contracted to do a Bullet Run by bobsag3 and a custom hardware mfg. that sells his miners on the GB forum. bobsag3 is the exclusive official US Reseller for Black Arrow and has put a lot of money down to get hardware in miners hands sooner rather than later.

I was offered exclusive pricing on this by bobsag3, a DZ MC co-op member/leader/admin/vetted miner host and GB Coordinator.

BA is guaranteeing shipping by November 1 or we get our money back.Thomas S. and I are holding onto the GB funds to make sure that refund funds are available, if necessary. In fact, we have an update from the factory that they expect to be shipping tomorrow night and bobsag3 expects delivery in Missouri by Wednesday/Thursday. If they fail to meet this Nov. 1 deadline we all get refunds but get to keep the hashrate.  :)  :)

These boards will be considered to be on the shelf and available for immediate sale/shipping by Wednesday/Thursday. I should have some more recent pictures to share on this shortly.

===

I'm offering fractional ownership of these boards to be hosted at a pro colo facility by bobsag3. There is also a sales outlet if you just wanted to buy boards outright, but I'm not involved with that deal.

I'm just the GB Coordinator for this deal and I'm truly hardware neutral as a longtime IT vet (except for BFL/Avalon; they're permabanned from our co-op). I'm not officially affiliated with BA, but they have stopped by to confirm that they're working with bobsag3.

To summarize: 15TH/s Black Arrow Bullet Run with Bitfury chips now instead of BA Minion chips in February.

$123 = 8.34 - 10GH/s + 1 month free hosting in Missouri + World's Lowest Hosting/Management fees at 2.75% every 2 weeks + UPS / Gas Generator backup protection + 3 remote admins + 1 local admin (all IT pros, including 2 Network Engineers and an EE) + custom built cabinet with extra Air Conditioner just for our co-op. This facility was designed by bosag3 and myself, a pro network engineer who's designed 4 different Research Lab server rooms.

Miners guaranteed to be shipping by November 1 or your money/BTC back.

Please see the 11th GB link in my sig for more details.

I believe that I mentioned that these Black Arrow Bullet Run boards were available for sale outside the co-op, but I wasn't involved with that. If someone wants to run the miners themselves they can buy them outright at higher prices.

As a co-op with greater numbers/buying power we get access to Institutional Pricing & Exclusives outside the range of normal deals. We even get approached for at-cost and below-cost miner buyout offers from members, which has happened in 3 rounds. It's just a fact of the world that buying concerns with more purchasing power always get better deals. However, deals like these don't normally just fall in our lap, I'm actively always looking for the best deals for miners out there.

I think this is the perfect place to mention this GB as it's the least expensive/best value access to custom hardware that will be "on the shelf" in Missouri by Wed/Thursday, which is what we miners have been complaining about for so long. This isn't the first time a GB has bled over to the CH forum as they're often interrelated and you sometimes see GBs or GB-type listings posted outright by others on this CH forum.

Here's a couple examples of entire threads that probably belonged in the GB forum alongside Canary, SSB, and company: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309918.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292433.0

If someone wants to buy boards elsewhere and run them themselves, they also have that option.

Options are good! Our co-op option is the no muss/no fuss option at smaller price points then manufacturers can typically offer customers, which is why we've also gotten support from various mfgs. that we work with.

ok so you got this gb for arrows.. 100 shares @ $123 each for 20 boards..

say I buy 20 shares.. that's equivalent to 4 boards.. I can have the 4 boards just sent to me and absolve the GB of any liability etc for my shares?

(Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures)

(a) Practices prohibited
Except as authorized by chapter 119, title 18, no person receiving, assisting in receiving, transmitting, or assisting in transmitting, any interstate or foreign communication by wire or radio shall divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning thereof, except through authorized channels of transmission or reception,
(1) to any person other than the addressee, his agent, or attorney,
(2) to a person employed or authorized to forward such communication to its destination,
(3) to proper accounting or distributing officers of the various communicating centers over which the communication may be passed,
(4) to the master of a ship under whom he is serving,
(5) in response to a subpena issued by a court of competent jurisdiction, or
(6) on demand of other lawful authority. No person not being authorized by the sender shall intercept any radio communication and divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such intercepted communication to any person. No person not being entitled thereto shall receive or assist in receiving any interstate or foreign communication by radio and use such communication (or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not entitled thereto. No person having received any intercepted radio communication or having become acquainted with the contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such communication (or any part thereof) knowing that such communication was intercepted, shall divulge or publish the existence, contents, substance, purport, effect, or meaning of such communication (or any part thereof) or use such communication (or any information therein contained) for his own benefit or for the benefit of another not entitled thereto. This section shall not apply to the receiving, divulging, publishing, or utilizing the contents of any radio communication which is transmitted by any station for the use of the general public, which relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress, or which is transmitted by an amateur radio station operator or by a citizens band radio operator.

So in summary it seems worthless to try having A CONVERSATION on this forum because people are here for the bitch-fest, not the decent content and engaging conversations.

Use that "ignore" button, and you'll have a much more pleasant experience here. Start with Inaba.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Huh, Avalon, really?  Last I checked, they had imploded.  Bitfury shows out of stock on all products.  ASICminer was order and wait last time I looked, but perhaps that's changed, I don't keep up with them much.  Please provide links otherwise?

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

The KnC offer looks pretty good. They've got a working product, and if they can deliver the next batch in November as promised, I think there's a high probability that it'll pay for itself in BTC. Part of that is due to the recently runup of BTC value. Two weeks ago you'd have had to pay too many BTC for a KnC order.

This doesn't give me much faith...

So Bitmine is selling Coincraft, on which you'll be losing money within three months of the optimistic December ship date at current price.  Will never return price paid.

AsicMiner has decided that offering massive USB hubs is an incentive to keep buying their bitsticks.  Doing some math, right now the 1.75 BTC price will net you 50 sticks + hub.  Running this through the next 180 days will likely net you less than 1BTC, so you'll never get back your 1.75BTC as after that estimate the per difficulty earnings are just plain sad.

BlackArrow isn't offering anything worth buying unless BTC rises in price dramatically.  Hedging hopes on a future price increase is optimism I can't afford anymore.

Anyone marketing to only China is basically useless to the rest of us who are stateside (which I think was part of the BFL appeal) since that means we'll likely see a markup between that market and ours.

Inaba was indeed right to say this is a complex process and it appears most who enter the field do not succeed

Seriously, because I can't find one, can anyone realistically point me towards anyone selling hardware that will at least pay for itself, even removing exchange rates and going purely on a BTC-for-BTC basis?  Because I don't see that - anywhere.

People can stick to their altruism, good of the network, believe in Bitcoin mantras until they are blue in the face - nothing in the mining part of BitCoin looks like anything more than a bunch of greedy kids who keep getting burned and then back in bed with the same one liners and pre-order promises.  I'm all for BTC expanding, but much like I object to country clubs I see no valid reason to pay into a system where my effort to "support the network" is leading towards someone with newer hardware making cash at my expense.  Better to buy and spend BTC at businesses, which in the end will do a ton more for the cause than buying another piece of hardware, lining the pockets of vendors who look like a group of one hit wonders who will walk away from BTC with a pile of cash and no regrets.

  Even being optimistic, mid-November delivery offers only 4, maybe 5 months before the machine costs more to run than it produces, in that time span making back 70% of the price I'd have to pay today isn't that appealing. 

*open-source cant be difficult, since most designs are based on FPGA code, right? I would imagine it cant be difficult to make chips for $1 a peice that are a basic design (exactly what avalon and asicminer did IMO)*

License - no any restrictions - do whatever you want both commercial and non-commercial.

Well - to make great announcement of bitstream - there's some docs should be written, porting, etc. really not much people can understand, maybe even some license notice if taken so seriously. I don't remember exactly to whom (but can look on skype) - but I gave it I think in Feb 2013 to people who appeared to be skilled in FPGA. and till today no results and no announce. I doubt they really wished to spend effort required :-(

People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.  Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.

Can you point to a vendor that's doing number 3 now?  Are you seriously complaining that because demand is exceeding supply, it is somehow the vendors fault?

As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it?  If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics.  If you think it's over priced, don't buy it.  The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect. 

So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.