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Few months in the gambling industry and I've never seen anyone ever questioning: How am I supposed to be sure that what am I playing is based on pure luck?

The owners could have simply programmed the numbers in a way to always be profitable, but not 100% lucky. The problem is that even if the admins were honest and said that the numbers of their game are getting generated randomly, there's no proof that they do. You still have to trust them and since we're talking about entrepreneurs, we can't be sure they're not lying. By making the program open source, yes, you do have made a big step, but still, the client can't view the back-end's code to check that the files are the open sourced ones.

Lately, I'm building a keno-based (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keno) game that will prove its luck and I would like your opinion about that. I will leave an option to gamble with real bitcoins, but you can of course try it for free once it's done. It's just an experiment.
(Here's the game I'm building: https://youtu.be/RGGZ4Lgurhw)

Let me explain you the game. You choose 1-12 numbers from the range of 1 to 80. The machine then generates 20 random numbers between that range. If, for example, I've chosen 8 numbers and 7 of them are generated from the machine too I earn lots of money. So, we're talking about possibilities here. Every 5 minutes a new draw of numbers will begin, and the players that have submitted their ticket will see their results.

I've found a solution to convince everyone that the numbers will be generated randomly. Here it goes:

Let's take 20 random numbers between 1 and 80 that only the admin will know:

Then, let's perform SHA256 to that string:

That's all. That's the way.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The admin will generate thousands of these random "strings" and perform SHA256 to them. Then he will post on a new page of his gambling site all these hashes. Once a draw of numbers is shown, players will verify that the generated numbers produce the same hash posted on the hashes' page. Thus, they will see that the draws of numbers have already been generated and the admin can't change them for his own benefit. Players could save a copy of all the hashes so they ensure that the admin won't change the hashes.

I hope you found it interested.

This system, known as Provably Fair, has been known for years, and it probably greatly contributed to the growth of crypto gambling industry, since it solved the problem of trusting in the fairness of the game. But it didn't solve trust completely, a casino can still make an exit scam, they can refuse to payout the winnings, and this cryptographic commitment scheme doesn't work for investors, which means that casinos could be theoretically defrauding them.

Was the way I wrote known for years? I thought they made their packages open source.

The situation that you are saying here is I think happening. But how do we know that they are somehow manipulating the game or it is rigged? There's always provable fairness in most of the casinos here. So how can you verify that they are rigged if we can't see the backdoor. There's even tutorials on how to verify your bets. What if it always show that it is provably fair? Are you still going to suspect that somehow they programmed it the way they want it to?

People wont boggle their mind too much unless if you are really that picky or too sensitive when it comes to fairness issue.People or majority will just stick out to known or popular ones and presume out
that they havent been cheated by the house but actually no one really knows on whats happening on backdoor.Trying to prove out anything will really just give a headache, thats why majority
wont really bother that much.

Exactly!

I'm sorry but being provably fair doesn't mean being perfectly random.
With this system, you can still choose combinations less often played by users. For example it's well known people like to play dates of birth in this kind of games or figures deemed to be lucky numbers as 7, 1, 13, etc

and tbh, not many people are really bothering the provable fairness if they are known and reputable casinos here. as what dunfida is saying, it is just a headache if you want to investigate their backdoors.
 and how many people do you think are verifying their bets? i guess not so many. maybe one can check once or twice just to check the site.
but most of us are too lazy to verify the bet every time we roll. not practical esp if you are playing in a reputable casino.

Exactly, most of us will just trust on the reputation of the site. The logic is simple, if that site has thousands or 100 of thousands of gamblers, there are certainly few who are checking the fairness of the site, so majority of us will just leave it to them to do the job and we just bet and hope we got lucky.

No one really questions the provably fairness of the site as long as it's a reputable site.

As long as the site have good reputation, fast in withdrawal and have active support it is fine for me. If we have trust issue too much we will just suspect anything even it is already said that it is a provably fair casino. It's just a matter of believing what we only thought. Though gambling is already  a luck game but we're not guarantee too if it's just pure luck unless we don't think what to bet or what position of the card can make us win. More casinos now are putting in their  websites that they are probably fair as many still didn't want to base  their play only in pure luck, since it involves money and we all just want to win after all.

You can check by yourself. Most gamblers who only want to have fun in gambling will not check on that because they will think that it is a waste of time and can get headaches checking the result. They would let the result comes out to them without thinking if the game was cheating or not by the admin or not because they know that they need the luck to win.

As long as you can play gambling on the trusty website and that site is recommended, I think you don't have to think about cheating because the site or the owner will not try to do that. If you always check the result, I don't think you can enjoy the game because you will busy checking the result. That is up to you.

AFAIK authentic randomness can only be achieved with physical randomness like real dices, coins, card decks, nuclear activity, etc. But here we are talking about unbiased randomness, it's quite different.

Actually, if we talk of authentic randomness, as in random in the strictest sense of the word, there is no such a thing, not even in the physical roll of a dice, or flip of a coin, and so on. And so we are only settling on an acceptable amount of randomness, something which far exceeds our unaided human computation. I guess this is good enough for RNGs.

That is the number one problem for online gambling, you can't win big because someone might fuck you from behind by witholding your winnings. I think trusting strangers is a hard thing to do because people are different. In my opinion, this is the number one dilemma of gambling entrepreneur, making sure that their games balances between being trustworthy and profitable. You can't have imbalances because that will be bad for your business either way. If you open up your business too much, exploits will pop up and if you want to rake profit then you will do questionable measures.

In other to clear the air and make gamblers understand that game results are generated randomly despite the house edge of most gambling to be 1% was the reason why provably fair was introduced so that gambler can check the result of the game are fair and not rigged or fixed.


Providing the open source code or the back end code of a gambling site can cause future complication of the gambling site and the last time I checked every gambling site paid huge fund for the programmer that creates the code for them exposing it for others to emulate it won't seems good and not gambling site owner will ever do that.

It's a nice idea but this is what most casinos do as well which are provably fair! They give you a server hash which you can later verify by combining with your client seed and check if the results produced are the same or not. Am I missing something? Because technically it's the same thing as you have just proposed! Sites that offer keno games like stake, have the exact same mechanism to prove that they are indeed fair!

Fair or not, the possibility of the house defrauding will still be an existing threat to players particularly the high rollers. They could still run with the money just as it had happened in the past. The only thats is important I think is how long the casino had established themselves in the industry that had build the trust over time. When a casino had been around for years and have not gotten some accusations, will not run out of players whether they play out of luck or with a strategy implemented.

Interesting fact!

Proof of luck will always matter on the provably fair system that the gambling site has. Users always monitor the hash given to ensure the accuracy of giving the hash and it should always accurate to the result. This means that there is no manipulation of the sites between the operator of the site. OP was extremely right. Verifying gambling sites that have claim provably fair will always good even though dice site gambling.

because thats too common . thru the years gamblers already know how to clasify gambling games if its luck or skill based pretty easy by just looking on the game mechanics and i think there are now sites that categorized thier games . they put in the description that these games are skill based and that games are luck based . at the end of the day , it will all depend on the gambler if he will play the game based on how its clasified or if he will play the game the other way around  . thats possible like example me i play dice game the most and they say its luck based ? well not me because i implement a strat , i imposed my skills towards this game .

I'd agree with Darker with this, there are various arguments about what is truly random since the word random itself can be defined in various ways, or various levels, such as in simple layman terms or delving deeper into it. It can mostly be said to be a term that is just used to comfortably explain how numbers are being shown in a sequence, basically when we don't really have a basis upon to rely on. There's the idea that quantum physics provides real randomness, but it delves a bit too deep which is too much for me at this point.

Even if they were to truly show the back end code, would others even understand it fully? It's a matter of that not everyone can't fully understand everything, hence why most people rely on reputation. There are a lot of people that check out the fairness of literally everything, and not just gambling casinos, and once compiled? It provides a pretty trustworthy record, provided that the sample size is big enough that is.

Reading this hit me with a realization.

As long as we are gambling online, either slot, roulette or dice, we can't achieve that randomness that we all wanted unless we actually use a natural dice, roulette, I don't know about slots though. Then if you win, a casino could make an exit scam and won't pay the winners or even sometimes freeze the account, provable fair my $$$.

I regards to posting hashes on a seperate page of a *betting* site. I guess the "hash page" should be immutable to prevent the admin of the betting site from changing the hashes, or is it immutable?




I think they should bet with little bitcoins (what they can afford to lose) and not gamble(take big risk).



Anyway, I think you may be trying to do this to see bettors chances of winning games with high/low chances of winning.
I think the games with high chance of winning "big" should cost more or be more valueable while those with low chances should cost less. That is how I assume the betting sites owner do it.
This^ makes things not pure luck

Guess you finally stumbled upon provably fair and what it means. I learnt also that PF is not provably random, but at least if you can prove that the house and the gambler both cannot control the outcome,,, then it is fair for both (in some cases like if you RNG on blocks found on Bitcoin).

That's possible but IMO no casinos who are in right mind will scam people if they are already operating with a profit.

When they are making money from gambling, that means consistent for them as they will always win due to house edge, if they decide to scam, they will get the money once and they could be jailed if caught, so let's think about that, my answer is that sites with good reputation would not cheat their gamblers.

I do this on a regular basis, especially when I start playing at new casinos. At casinos that have been around for a long time - like Bustadice - I rarely do that and only when I have a run of bad luck :D

Sites like BTCGosu offer "Provably Fair Verifiers", with which it is really easy to verify your bets, you don't need any technical understanding:

https://i.postimg.cc/gkh6T9jS/screenshot-381.png (http://postimg.cc/D82ZSMqL)
Source (https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/)

So if I can only recommend to verify your bets regularly, it gives you the safety of not being cheated.

If an observer is able to view the randomly generated numbers prior to the hashing, then they can tip off an investor to select those specific numbers and win the pot.

That being said, applying something like this to the "random" selection of users who qualify for the DT1 each month would go a long way towards transparency when @theymos is making their selection each month.

=====================

@LoyceV

It's better that way, if both gamblers and house are unable to control the outcome then it's fair enough to continue enjoying the game.
Most of us always aiming and looking for some ways to take advantages within any luck based games but there's none, maybe just maybe if someone can take some decent benefits it's still not the majorities.

Definitely not because a luck based games always have the edge in favor or the house or the gambling sites, it's possible to win but only few will because the majority of us will lose in the long run, due to the "HOUSE EDGE", that's very important to understand, regardless of how small it is, it's still an edge.

Lottery is a pure luck-based game which is really hard to win. You need to combine a lot of numbers that has really a low probability of winning due to a lot of possible combinations that might come out. Let's say that you need to choose between 1- 50 and make a combination of 6 number in any order, that's really hard to do and to guess. That's the proof that pure luck can be experienced in playing lottery, roulette, and etc. It is obviously a pure luck gambling game if it make you lose a lot of money first until you win.

I agree with you, a lottery game is probably the closest we can get to pure randomness and also the proof of pure luck. Winning in the lottery is so unlikely that its more likely to get hit by a lightning than win any of the big lotteries
Casino games like roulette and dice are getting very close to such randomness
But the luck is not pure, because you can adjust your strategies and change your luck/odds with every round.

I'm wondering if the gamblers really check the fairness of the specific gambling site and I'm also wondering if they really care for this one. Honestly, I play easily and don't spend much time on checking the site if they are fair or not, as long as they said they are fair Its fine with me since I only gamble with my small money and very rare to play. If you doubt on the fairness of the gambling site then check it, or ask the other players about this one.

Regardless of the randomness of games, there is a probability for owners to control the system and manually operate it if they really want to but I think it will be obvious for players and gamblers to notice it if he or she would play there very often I think it is up for owners if they would do such things, and we gamblers would surely don't really notice such scams until a person working with its program confess they're wrongdoings,

I would love to try your Keno-Based game and make my opinion about it as well.

Provably fair is the foundation where Cryptocurrency online gambling is built, without this people will always have the allegation that they have been cheated, that is why Crypto gambling sites can stay online for many years because of the provably fair and the house edge, but still gamblers should always check the gambling site where they are playing, some of the issues and allegations are none payment and allegations of breaking the rules of gamblers.

As what other said the winning lottery number can be solve by just getting the probability of an event of wins and a probability of lose and of cours with the help of mathematical method called the probability and statistics. But to be honest i didn't believe in this maybe i'm not just good enought by solving this probabilities but i am used to believe in a pure luck. Yes lottery was one and maybe first in list of a gambling that was a proof pure based luck of game. I didn't ever tried betting in this game i am not that type of a person who has a good luck.

It shouldn't be that hard to achieve 100% randomness since there are many built-in functions and libraries that programmers can use to generate random numbers.
Collaborating few of the random output to create a string of random of numbers should not be that difficult. But if all the gambling sites start using this then they might not be able to generate profits out of their site. This is risky for their business which is why many gambling sites fake their data so that their users only win a limited number of times.

I believe it's vice versa. I've seen articles about people rolling physical dice to their advantage, coins being rigged with one side slightly harder than another and things like wind or surface playing their role. So I think that only a virtual dice can fall to one of the six sides with exactly equal probability and thus truly randomly. And of course many games offer not random results, but with the special outcome probabilities that a player chose (which can also be done only virtually).
As for the specifics of a provably fair system, maybe it doesn't matter that much, as long as there's no way a casino would cheat.

You mean the cloutbet issue and the other sites who did not pay their gamblers, they are out of the business and some of them will eventually out of business, the best decision for a gambler to make is to pick the right gambling site to play, once they find it you will have no issues as long as you are following the rules.

You're right, personally as a gambler, i don't care about the cracks to find the actual lucky numbers while i gamble but doing this without the mindsets of getting pick-up the right numbers saves my stress. Just pick to hang-up a number is my best wishes becasue most of my gambling activities are done becasue of fun and entertainment seeking. Those who gamble solely to earn from their gambling will definitely end-up going through tough means to choose the right number.

And even then you are never going to be completely sure a physical casino is not cheating you either, slots could be programmed to not payout until you play for a duration of a time, the die could be loaded, there have also being cases of roulettes being modified to allow the casino to influence the results, the cards of a blackjack dealer could be marked allowing him to know which card is coming ahead of time and then perform a second deal to avoid that card or to avoid a player to get that card.

So at the end we still need to put some trust in the casinos we are playing but if the casino has been around for a very long time then the chances that is cheating are lower as there is always the possibility someone had realized their cheating and then exposed them to the public for what they really are.

Except I don't, and a lot of the gamblers currently in the scene wouldn't care that much especially if they are playing in a trusted platform with years of interaction and good standing in the community. Provably-fair is a concept that let's you check whether a platform is being true to you or not, and if it doesn't, even just for a single instance, you take your business elsewhere. Though of course you will never do hash checking all the time when you are gambling. That'll be time-consuming and might lead you to lose your elements and focus in the game. Besides, there are more ways that a platform can cheat to you than one, so why bother on a single aspect that most in the industry have been checked by other players than you all the time? I mean it's good, but checking it every single bet is just really taking away the experience of gambling IMO.

What do you mean "they made their packages open source"? And cryptographic commitment schemes have been a thing for nearly as long as modern cryptography exists, this is just an example of a practical application of this. This is a fairly simple thing, so there's even no need to start an open-source project for that, any programmers with a little bit of experience could implement it in a few hours.

Also crypto casinos, especially lotteries, sometimes use things like Bitcoin block hashes as a source of randomness, because in case of a lottery it's not enough to just commit your numbers, a casino could simply register as a player, and since they know the results beforehand, they would create a fake winning for themselves and steal all the bets that aren't winning.

What do you mean? Provably fair system is well documented for a long time and their are many ways to prove a site that they are fair in generating random number. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provably_fair_algorithm

The game in my signature let players guess the last digit of a future block hash. That is provably fair as well.

I think cloudbet is a good gambling site before but its just suddenly change when they start scamming their players. Although open scam accusation is already made, people should practice doing the "do your own research first" before trusting something. It wouldn't hurt that much if you know something than just blindly guess this is a good casino site but it turns out they were shady from the start.

I disagree with that. A computer can easily generate outcomes with a specific probability value but it doesn't mean the outcomes will be really random.
For example 123456 123456 123456 is an outcome with an equal occurrence of all sides of a dice, but it's not random.  

Being active here in forum will let us know whether it's a good casino or not, we we're able to see the positive and negative part of many casinos here as we are updated whether there is a scam accusations, pending withdrawal and even bugs and support problems. Through this we minimize the chance of being scam or wasting our time in not deserving casino. Though it's saddening that cloudbet didn't resolve yet their issues as they used to be a good popular casino site before, so we really need to be updated in what casino we're playing.

I agree with you but I was talking about "authentic randomness" with the meaning of being the opposite of pseudorandomness...
I agree with you perfect randomness is really hard to achieve and maybe not even reachable. But there is also randomness in the choice of your not perfectly random dices...

^ Definitely right, if there is no provably fair system on each online casino that has a house edge, I don't how to trust gambling casino since there is evidence of how they generate the exact number of results. Just like dice, lottery, keno, and many others that players will fight the house edge. Even though their house edge uniformly 1%, but still they had different results.
Nevertheless, for me, this provably fair mechanism of each gambling sites was an identification to prove that your site is not manipulated by the owner.

Lottery is a pure luck, but there are several ways to win it, because usually before the Lottery is drawn there are several clues to the numbers that will come out,
because the lottery maker usually gives that clue, it's not all lottery but it can be tried to analyze it,
You can analyze the previous lottery results, sometimes there are several clues to the numbers that often come out.

note: that not all lotteries are like that, just a few, I've done them and were successful.

The lottery is one of the hardest game we could possibly play but there is a chance you win with your old ticket, right here in my country there are a lot of people join in a lottery supported by the government and there is a chance only like a small probability that you will win, still there is a chance why not right?. Also, there are a lot of stories right there that a man always wins a lottery ticket with just a random number but still, he is a greedy man and wastes all of the money in just a single week those funds AFAIK are approximately $10,000, If I were that man better to invest and keep those funds instead of spending on beer and party all night. Pure luck but no pure skills.

Even if the lottery is one of the hardest gambling games to win, people tend to buy the ticket in a large amount. With the cheap price for one ticket, they can use some money to buy the ticket many times. That doesn't stop them from buying another ticket on other days because the prizes tempt them to dream of winning it. That is why the lottery that is supported by the government will always attract many people interest in buying the ticket because they can win those prizes if they have a large number of tickets.

The lottery is one of the pure luck of gambling games, making people like to test their luck. No matter if they need to buy a large amount, they still enjoy the games.

Well it's really provably fair because it's transparent and you cannot change the outcome of the hash, provably fair is already well documented like what you stated and those who are playing for a long time are not questioning it anymore only those new players and who just come here without any knowledge about provably fair.

Well, there's that type of risk everywhere in the world isn't it? We can't then trust anyone. Casinos make money off the house edge, which guarantees them profit in the long run, and they really make huge money like that. If a casino runs away by stealing users money, then that's a foolish thing they are doing, by destroying their good-will and losing on the opportunity of making much more money off the house-edge than just running away with some bucks. The high-rollers or anyone who's gambling addicted even after winning lots, will continue to play and lose in the long run because of house-edge ;)

I think that provably fair is great in itself but I am still not convinced in slots gameplay that all the spins are completely independent of each other.Why for example we don’t hit the bonus round 5 times in a row?Because the game is still software comtrolled and they have predetermined what is the amount they will give out.I know this is called house edge but still I want to link it to the provably fair mechanism.

Hey, your  luck is easy to check. Instead of using centralized platform that can be manipulated by owners try p2p ones for betting. I wrote the simple guide explaining in pictures how to bet on sport events using smart-contracts developed by Obyte that  offers truly  p2p betting. Anyone is welcomed to test his/her own luck:   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5278618.0

They even launch a signature campaign and hired one of the best manager here it took them a long time to build their reputation only to lose with the so many bad reports from gamblers, we can say that we should always check for bad reports on our favorite gambling, if they scammed their players you could be the next.

Well that would be part of their plan on launching a signature campaign but I think probably that project had been acting not good is because of their management. We know that money is very hot and tempting and this could be the reason why they got bad reputations after the implementation of the project.

Anyway, gambling site with provably fair on their gambling site description is really fair. As other users had mention that this is the way to get the gamblers in their platform knowing how they have done in their business. But this provably fair is not really an assurance that gamblers will going to win. Still this design is in favor of the Gambling site and since this is business they don't need that pure luck to earn. They had just some advantage on it and this is their business are always doing good. Provably fair could be a good way to attract gamblers but the real essence in gambling sites is for them to earn.

Probably fair concept exist here for very long time and most of the casinos promote themselves with such name so people no need to worry about the luck because its actually a random string produces their results.

Well, we can simply ask those who are already into this for a long time and ask them if they sense something different with the system that they play on. Surely many would have accused them of cheating, but there is no evidence. It is really random system that this works on. I don't think there is cheating involved. Maybe I am wrong but without evidence we can never be sure. Just simply trust in the system and continue playing.

and they tell you that you are using multiple accounts thats why they are freezing your winning lol.
common style of scam casinos and even those big casinos got involved in this at some times.
But luck is what people needs in gambling with those games,not unless you have a great skills in a certain game then things will change.

no need to ask them because there is already a feature to knew if a site or the game you play is based on pure luck and those feature can also be found on the game or on the site your are betting  . asking random people can be inacurate because they can lie and say that sites lie or they cant simply tell the truth theirselves   . theres a guy before that came with his own evidence and accuse the platform but i didnt follow its thread , i  have no update on thier discussion but i can still see the platform continue operating till now .

I have seen several accusations regarding freezing account or accusing of multi-accounts, even known casinos here in the forum. That's their common reasoning whenever a particular player has huge winnings. And you can't do anything about it as a player, but to publish your situation if they will not be amenable to your demands. If you can prove that you are not in anyway involved in violating their terms, you can get the support of the people here and they will give negative trust to that casino unless they resolved your situation. That is one good reason why it is better to play in casinos who have their threads and accounts here. Because people can help you whenever you got in trouble. But when it comes to provable fairness, I guess better stick to reputable and known casinos.

Are you building some kind of lottery? Can anyone of us has the oppprtunity to try that one out? I'm excited, I guess I can use your project to compare the results of casinos that I'm currently playing to that project. Honestly, I thought it's always the house edge that makes me lose, I never thought that some of these businesses will try to cheat through programming their games beyond their house edge.

Same thoughts here. Although we cannot access the back-end, I don't think there is manipulation or cheating there. I am talking of the leading crypto casinos. So fairness provability which could be verified with the use of third parties is good enough. I am not talking of all casinos especially those which are not licensed and are not yet very trusted by many crypto gamblers.

Of all my losses, I also think they are mainly due to house edge and not cheating on the part of the casinos. I am always playing at the most popular casinos.

Yes I'm building a keno-based lottery. Not a casino, just a game. The game will be available to play it with real bitcoins or for free without gambling, but you won't have any profits. You can see your win rate this way and gamble with your calculations.

1 round will cost $0,50 and it will be a browser game.

That is something to find if cheating is less possible or no chance at all.
Well, that finds it more interesting to know how casino openly uses this strategy just like in the lottery. If that is proven that there is no such issues arise, it possible that most lotteries have used this one or there is another strategy similar to this. Then we can say that this a pure base luck game and only a lucky person wins with any behind-the-table activities.

I hope you could find a way to also put some prizes there.
That way, it could be more inviting to the testers or maybe even hardcore players will join the club.  ;D
You are already making a game so why not go forward into putting some fun in it.
It won't need to be that much but something is still fun, right?

Regarding the provably fair discussions, I don't really look deep in it as long as I know the gambling site is trustworthy.
The good part is we have a lot of those sites in this forum. Also, I appreciate the lookouts if ever something bad is going on with gambling sites.

I agree. I want to commend you for making this thread and for the game that you have created, it will sure add fun if there are benefits from it.
I also do not want to overthink the provably fair of these casino websites in the forum, as their strategies cannot be really disclosed to the public.
While it is something that we cannot really determine, it is important to be vigilant and do not be too trustful with anything in the gambling industry.

Most of the part you wrote is actually in existence. I mean each time a bet is placed, each time someone wager a coin or take an action on the gambling site then a SHA is generated for it on the exact nano seconds! The only question is how do we trust the process of generating these SHA is not carrying a loose end? Though open source, they could always have an opportunity to break the rules.

However they do give out the payouts of winnings, and on each board they always carry portion of profit since number of wagers is always higher than the rolled number.

I know that, that's why I call it experiment. My money are in a little danger, but I believe in the power of randomness. The possibilities of not winning a game are on my side.

This is how the game will look like: https://youtu.be/RGGZ4Lgurhw

That's true and I agree with you 100% but then the problem of trust is bigger than the problem of knowing the provably fair system because often I am playing and I see players blaming the casino for rigging their rolls which makes me feel strange as gamblers can verify their rolls always but they still blame the casino because they feel there is still a way that the house is cheating on them.

I agree that even if the casino is not cheating in one way there are still numerous other ways by which they can cheap which can be blocking withdrawals or asking for identity proofs and forfeiting all the winnings from users.

As you say it is foolish to do such a thing but at the same time human beings are not known for being logical all the time, for example a casino that is having a bad season and that lost a lot of money to a whale knows that they will eventually get that money back as long as they remain in business but the owner may decide that he does not want to wait that long and decides to begin to cheat their customers.

But people are not dumb for the most part people form communities and once they begin to compare results they will see no one is winning. Such a thing will be very suspicious and they will sooner or later find out they have been cheated and at that point that casino will lose any chance of recovering the money they have lost.

Blocking withdrawals after asking for the KYC is the lowest type of scam that a casino can come up with but it had been posted here as scam accusation before. The casino  eventually said that the user had been cheating the casino many times before and so the reason they ask for KYC. It can be hard to beleive which side are saying the truth since its a he said she said type of argument.  But one thing is sure is that the odds are always for the casino, luck is luck.

Despite the fact many people above called it provably fair method, it's not like that. At least, not complete. There must be something from user side, to make it really random (as real provably fair algorithm works (https://dicesites.com/provably-fair)).

Because without it you can't be sure what exact "string" of numbers admin used. More clear:
In pure provably fair, player will get hashed seed, to compare it later with the original one, which is used with player seed (which player gives to casino) to generate some result. Without player random seed, admin could provide anything he want to you (because only he is responsible for results generation).

This is how we gamble and we always look for a good combination so we can finally win the game and its fine to play randomly, really depends on the risk tolerance of the player. Gamble is pure of luck, we can’t win if we didn’t take the risk and have fun always, good luck to you OP and I want to see the result of this one.

This makes me realize though in every game we encounter because some players don't check if the casino truly offer a provably fair system. The provably fair system has been well known for many years so this post is truly an eye opener to the players that some casino possible may rigged but even we played a lot, gambling is just pure of luck and we should know the risks that we may win or lose.

In many case that gamblers become blind to see it because of bonuses. "Okay, I'll go for thissite because they offer us huge bonuses, a lot of free spins", but they haven't notice that they got into the trap.
We don't need to chase those luck, it comes to us momentarily. And this is a reason why I've often to choose skilled-games which we could apply our knowledge and skills just like card games and sports. It never needs luck, unlike lottery which is purely a luck-base game.

My initial goal was to play gambling as entertainment, so I didn't want to bother thinking about whether gambling was cheating or not.
In my opinion, as long as we choose a trusted gambling site with a good reputation, there is no need to worry that gambling sites are
cheating. Because it is impossible for them to sacrifice their long-established reputation by cheating, but it is up to each person. There
are people who do not feel bothered by regularly checking the fairness of gambling sites to make sure they are not fraudulent. But for me,
it is a troublesome job if I check gambling sites too often, so I can't enjoy playing gambling.

Gambling is not all about luck because other gamblers are very skillful and can manipulate the card well, they can memorize which card is already thrown away and which card is still on the table. But even if they do that, those gamblers still having a problem and also needs even a little bit of luck because even if they memorize the whole game, if they cannot get a good card they won't win a single round. Gambling is really a complicated game where you may win and lose but will give you a good entertainment.

Gambling is 90% of luck and 10% skills on all types of game whether poker, blackjack and other games that requires analysis because during initial stage of the game. You don't know what will be your cards(in card game) or team roster condition(sports) before the game start so your luck is the one will take effect and not your skills because there's no way to predict what will come.

Many players are claiming that some gambling type requires more skills especially on poker. But what if the skilled player faced a very lucky person. Even if the pro player do cartwheel while his cards was bad as hell. He can't change anything about unless risk some money for bluffing(talking about poker).

Yes, many gamblers will think like that because they see that they will get so many amounts in their account if they join on that website, and if they deposit some money, that amount will be bigger. That can make them play longer than usual, and they can enjoy and have a chance to win some money. I guess they will not think about provably fair or other things, especially if they see their balance become bigger because of the bonuses.

But still, card games and sports betting needs the luck to win ;D
You will never know if the situation will be the same as what you predict because we don't know if the team or player conditions will be changed or not in the middle of the match. Always be wise in gambling games, so you don't have to lose too much money.

What you have said mate is right. When you play gambling you need a lot of patience, faith and luck to win the game because you can't win always and there are times that you will also experience loses. This is one of the reasons why I don't see gambling as a part time job or job itself because you can't always win and your lucky day doesn't occurs frequently so you have to take the risk always in order to test your luck.

I agree with you. It is better to use gambling as one of the entertainment, which can give us a fun thing than trying to use gambling as a part-time job because that will be difficult. No matter how much money we use, if we don't have luck, and we will not know when the luck will come, we will not win the games easily. Besides that, the risk of losing all money will always big as we don't know how big our chance to win.

If we already test our luck and can't win on the games, perhaps, it is better to stop gambling for a while and leave the place. We can try to play other gambling games the next day to test our luck again.

No, it's not possible. It's at most pseudo randomness, you couldn't even call it truly random due to the fact that the programmer himself was able to create it. Is randomness something that could be tampered or altered with? If it was, then is it still called random? Also I doubt casinos would even bother fake their data, scammy and fake ones for sure, but legit ones? There's absolutely no need to. Especially if their reputation is already well known, there's absolutely no need to fake numbers.
Thing is, a skilled person could capitalize on his cards and decide whether to quit early or not. A lucky person? He'll just believe on his luck blindly till the end, possibly acquiring more loss compared to the amount he actually won. The difference between a skilled and a lucky person is a skilled one knows whether to play or not, that's basically it imo.

The programmer creates the code that is necessary to generate the random string not the random string itself.
Basically the code much have higher integrity of generating the random string in such a way that it cannot be tampered/altered while behaving truly random.
Even the legit sites would definitely have a code that invokes the provably fair algorithm to generate the random string.
This doesn't mean that the programmer can tamper the provably fair algorithm and if he does then he is just faking the data anyway.
And yeah, I agree with you that the reputed sites do not have the need to fake their data because they can still be in profit while being provably fair.
I just meant that there are some sites that fake their data just to gain money from their users.

Well, in genuine casinos, they don't really need to cheat to make huge money. Just like any genuine good company, there's no need to cheat at all when it's guaranteed that you will make money in the long run!

It's very much in the interest of the casino to stay fair because then players will wager more, and the more they wager, the more profit casinos will make because of the house-edge that gives the a mathematical guarantee of profit in long run all the time ;)

House edge is the way in which casino do make money and since they are running a business so they need to have an advantage as well since they have to pay salary to staff, security , rentals etc which all involved cost. And for gamblers they try out their luck by playing and thinking that they may win some big money or maybe win a jackpot money etc and due to which they wager it. But only some may make money in the end this needs to be understood by players.

Thats it because Casinos are sure profit in all aspect as long as you will run it legitimate and fair,you are willing to spend money for advertising and willing to pay winners even if you are at losses,that will make the casino popular and successful .
each game favored the fairness for the casino operators meaning gamblers is at either 60/40 winning chance or much lower.
in this case the longer player bet is the biggest profit owners gain.

60% losing chance while 40% winning chance, well, not bad at all.

We already know how casinos have run this business and it is their part also to take profit otherwise, they won't survive. That is why if we think about gambling, LUCK is very important. We have the skills and knowledge but this neither be enough to win. And this implies that gambling is not to be considered as a source of income (as a player) but this is a great venture for the owners.

I guess players don't depend on fairness. It's all about the character of the management they always check.
Why? What would you do or how would you take advantage of a gambling site where yes, you might be winning more. The question is, will they give you your prize without any problems in the process? Are they reputable enough to make the commitment?

I would rather play to a casino that has a provably fair system than with a casino/gambling site where you can win but can't even pull up funds to pay their players.

Well, my thought is I don't think changing the system will make you luckier. I think it is more of you will feel lucky but not so lucky at all.
People tend to look for a perfect scheme however, there is just none. This system has been known for years but still, --players are looking for more. Perhaps it is because they consider gambling as their way of living even though gambling is only made for recreational players. It's really pure of luck if you will fight against the house edge.

Well said, I agree with you. The assurance of being able to withdraw winnings after playing matters more than having fun for many winnings throughout playing but will be given a hard time withdrawing. After all, fun and profit is what we want in gambling.

I think the chances of winning on playing gambling is based on how lucky you are and sometimes on the strategy that you are using. In some instance there players who are playing for the long time but still unfortunate to win but there are also players who are new but because they are lucky, they already experienced to win a big prize on playing so I bet that sometimes it is indeed based on how lucky we are.

The concept is good but I am curious on how the players can bet to your game like how the winning amount will be distributed. Will there be more than one winners?

I guess, it will be good if we can just test your platform once you are finish in building it so we will know how it work and after that we will just ask whatever
questions or problems that we will face upon using your platform. I love the idea of pure luck.

After a little break, I still work on this project. I haven't implemented the proof of luck yet, but I want you to just tell me if the game looks friendly enough.
Link: http://playkino.cf/ (firefox recommended)

Game was created with unity.

Ha ha  :D

I would say that this is impossible, in fact. The same as "to achieve 100 % efficiency of heat engine". Especially if we are talking about built-in libs in programmer languages. I would say more, only few of this libraries (like urandom or random which used by openssl) can provide strong pseudo random number. And randomness still depend from seed and entropy, whatever.

And yeah, for online casino it's impossible to do, because good libs (like urandom) are very slow, and it can't be used for online gambling.

You should add this update to the OP for more visibility IMO

I'm using Chrome and I get this message

It's not ready yet. Once it is, I'll announce it. I just wanted to post this beta version to whoever is interested on testing it. I've already seen some important bugs that must be fixed, though.

That's a serious issue, because I don't know anything about html5 (in which most internet casinos are based on). I only know programming and building for WebGL (if we're talking about browser games). From what device are you trying to visit it? Smart TV? Because I think that all PCs that run chrome have pre-installed webgl.

Browsers that can't run webgl are usually those that don't have access to hardware acceleration. On chrome://settings/system be sure that the checkbox is checked.

No I'm using Chrome on a classic PC laptop and the hardware acceleration seems to be correctly checked in the browser.
But it should be just a little bug because now I don't get this box anymore. ✔️

Exactly the point. Casinos knows what they do. If a gambler discovers a strategy, it will only work for a short period. It stops working once the casino discover that there is a strategy that is being used to collect money from then. Next thing they do is to change the way the game is programmed and it will only favour the first set of gamblers that discovers the strategy.

Yes, I already know this thing and casinos won't let this thing happen, they don't want someone to make the best strategy that will let someone bags all the money, so they will change the odds, the tricks and algorithm for them to win over the gambler. And luck is true in gambling, I believe in it and sometimes me myself is winning a game because of luck only, I didn't expect anything but luck. I love lottery because odds are big and difficult, so the only thing I have is pure luck.

With the trends in cryptocurrency gambling, most of the casinos are having provably fair games, in this way, users are able to extract and scan the codes by the casinos whether the games are really fair and having a 50/50 chance of winning. If users are also familiar with coding, they can easily determine if the game is honest or not. But one thing I noticed is that, casinos are programmed in a way that they will win in the long run, which should be understood by the gamblers. But that doesn't mean that gamblers, in the long run, doesn't have a chance to hit the jackpot or win big.

IMO, the very proof of pure luck in a platform isn't really visible to the code, but the testimonies and experience of the previous winners. Though there's no way we could see and verify it from the platform itself, we can always ask here on our forum about those things as there's a lot in here who actually gambling.

Gambling chance of winning is so low, luck for me is random, or if you ever find the strategy it will be reset by the casino or by the banker, they have studied everything before they establish it, so more likely that whenever a technique is discovered they will immediately find a way to counter it, if not they will bleed for money, this is why the casino is successful they always have a counter to the player, every game has a different combination, they have 90% of winning leaving every player slight chance of winning with lots of combination.

That is what happens in the casino. The casino will not let you win, and if you can win, that is because of your luck, and the casino can't do anything. But they will make sure to get their money again, which is easy for them because they own the games.

The lottery is one of the gambling games based on luck. Many people like to test their luck, so that makes them play more and more. Related to the lottery, people can buy a lot of tickets because each ticket's price will not be too expensive. People are willing to use some money to buy that ticket hoping that one of the tickets will be out as the winner.

Not sure if that is really interesting or not as it was still a pure luck-base game. We know that participating in such kind of gambling has a very low percentage of winning as we only need luck.
Well, that could be our choice but it won't make help me and think about going to the lottery. And that is also because I wasn't convinced about how the system generates the result and I've decided to choose those things that I can maximize my knowledge.

Lottery is completely based on luck, but with casinos it is a part. We can't say gambling sites doesn't allow us to take money from them. Soon the gambling house will try to get it back from us. This is not the reality, reason for every loss is the gambler himself. They don't have the limitations and always greed of making more. This makes them go even after winning out of luck.

but pure luck gambling is more entertaining than others because you don't expect anything but chances and this adds excitement being a bettor.

sometimes depend on our mood is what the outcome of our paying.

When we are in good mood and wanted to enjoy the game?no pressure and expectation?even if we lose our feeling wont hurt .

But when we are in longing for win?each bets seems like super heavy that the outcome will always favor us,if not failure is what we always felt.

Well, the amount we would win scales with the chances so it's natural that it's very low since the amount you can possibly win can change your life (depending on your status of course). That's why luck-based games are quite famous after all, I mean who would play a luck-based game that has a high chance of winning, but only a small amount, possibly an amount that is even below what you spent to enter that game right?

Well, without that kind of business plan, casinos wouldn't really profit or even become a stable business so it's actually understandable. Not to mention that lottery is an easy way for people to actually change their lives, plus as you said the tickets are cheap, so casinos would only need to calculate the minimum amount and set a cash prize that would still net them quite a hefty profit. And besides, it's almost a natural idea that casinos would always win, no matter what.

We can win on the lottery games, but the chance will not too big because the casino will win most time. Perhaps we can win for some money, but we can win the jackpot if we have big luck. If we still play the lottery or other gambling games after we win, we can lose that win money and our initial money. It is natural if a gambler has greed after they win because it wants more than what we already got.


Indeed. The casino will have their plan to get their profit, and no matter how hard we tried, the casino will win big. People like to play the lottery, especially in real-life, because they can buy many tickets with very little money. They hope that they can be one of the winners who can win the prizes. That is happening in the casino, which has a lottery game. In any gambling game, the casino will take the win, and of course, they will have much money from the losing gambler.

Yeah! I heard someone has agreed to settle the amount than getting his total winning amount because it's easy to their money like that and safe from refuse payment. Because if that luck really hit you, the amount of money you gonna win is million dollars and that is hard to transact.

Though it is the best solution yet if i were the gambler?i will fight even if this cost of closing of that specific gambling site.

This has been always the outcome that the gambling site wins and the claimant will agree to what the site offers,so this is happening still.but if we will be a better man and won't let them fool the system?for sure in time they will never act like that again.

What's this a case of better than nothing at all? Very possible to happen as casino can easily
freeze your account and accuse you with something that they can not allow you to withdraw
your funds, and about to such amount of winning money you are also correct that with such
huge amount of money, transactions will be  questionable and the possibilities being hold is
very much higher than enjoying that huge amount of winnings.

But you will still be the owner of your account and it's your money. The casinos needs to actually proof to you that you did something wrong. Otherwise you can just go to court and get your money back. If someone is cheating the casinos are definitely going to keep the money and not pay you out. However if a casino would start to just block their biggest winners the reputation of casino would go downhill fast. Such red flags would stop other gamblers from playing on the casino.

In the end, gambling is always related to pure luck, since you cannot control things yourself and you are always dependent on a machine or a player (s).

You can of course optimize your chances based on research. But luck is always a big factor in gambling and betting.

If the gambling site is Legit and legal but what if not?just like those existing but long running casino online now?you cannot bring them to court for the reason that the casino did not pay you because why playing in illegal gambling when there are legal site that safer to deal with?

But yeah you can make a scam accusation here and let the community urge the owner to do necessary action.

But remember that this is not the only platform in which these casino advertising and luring players so Bitcointalk alone may nopt bring them down for accusation.

Luck base on the house edge, gambling works like this and we cannot change that one. That's why you have to understand the risk of gambling and gamble only if you have extra money and if you are willing to lose money. I do gamble to have fun, and I depend most of the time on my Luck and unfortunately gambling is not my thing and I don't want to gamble in long term because I might get addicted to this.

Someone calls it luck and carries a variety of talismans or prays to the gods to increase the chances of winning. But in my opinion, winning is an accident, which can not be a pattern, no matter what talismans the player is carrying with him and whatever gods he prays.

Agreed that no matter how hard you pray to a variety of saints, gods and/or any higher entity you believe in, and even having any kind of charms, and talismans on you, it will never increase your chance of winning. Some believe by obtaining some kind of charms and/or after praying to god is the reason that they won on something but rather it's just a coincidence.
For me, gambling is all about luck and just as you said winning is an accident but so is losing even if the odds are on you. You're just lucky if you win whether the odds are against or on you.

Everything related to gambling and betting comes with a great deal of luck. Whatever strategy you have, you always depend on others.
Being lucky with gambling is something you always need, but you can enforce it as best you can.

Both of you are right. When it comes to gambling, no matter what the gambling game type, it will need luck to win, whether it's a small win or a big win.
Getting lucky in gambling will be needed for every gambler who wants to win, but unfortunately, not many of them can win easily.
Some of them can win the games after spending some money, but others need to spend too much money to win.
And if that is what you got, it might not be worth it because, in the end, your win will be small than your loss.
But maybe you can increase your chances to win in the skills gambling games such as sports betting because I think that type of gambling game needs to have more information about the team that can be the winner.
Although you still need to have luck in that game, you can hope to win the game.

So nothing really is fair in an online casino?
or offline casinos can also commit fraud such as manipulating cards or whatever.
although it seems that offline will be difficult to implement. So is there really fair gambling?
it may be holding a tournament and the casino doesn't have to go far because it has already benefited from holding the tournament.

Luck alone wouldn't be sufficient you need to have strategies as well. I know strategies won't work for too long since once the owners discover it will be over. Still, this is one of the special factors to increase the odds of winning. But of course this will still depend on the games you were playing with, if the game was lottery then I guess you don't need a strategy for this one coz this game is considerably a pure-luck based game. Strategies can be only applied to a game like card games, dice game, sports betting, and more. The thing is don't rely too much on luck, you must do something to increase your chance of winning.

That means its the machine that generate the option of number, so I'm trying to understand that if the machine refuses to rotates the total number needed that means their is chance of losing the game, so in these aspect, what method are we using to play the game, is it by cryptocurrency such as bitcoin or physical money that will be use for playing such game, because we need to understand the rules and regulations of the platform. Shall it's obvious that in gambling the possibility of winning gamble is based on prediction and luck because no one predict game and call it  sure game, the success of game is luck.

---

There is the trust left on FortuneJack's account:
Here is the explanation of why FJ's "Provably Fair" system isn't fair (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5097164.msg49253796#msg49253796).

Also check the Wixiplay provably fair system (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5211370.msg53399770#msg53399770).

Personally, I don't know the backend and can't really say sure whether website is really provably fair or not. In this case, I think like you OP but at the same time there is no need to fake that system because they already have a house edge that guarantees that casino will profit on long-term.

I suggest you to check this thread too: "Provably Fair": How Fair & Provable is it? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5184988.msg52468289#msg52468289)

Well, that depends if you are playing on a provably fair platform game or not. Surely, in any way, there is no 100% proof that a game isn't manipulated but in a system of provably fair where you can verify your bets by client and server seed along with nonces, you can actually prove the legitimatecy of a platform to a great extent.

To an extent only. A casino claiming fairness provability does not automatically mean it is consistently fair and even the gamblers themselves will not verify each result for its fairness. I think no gambler verifies each of his bet.

Aside from that, it is also possible that gambling sites will cheat their gamblers in other ways. As already stated, it is possible for the casino to lock withdrawals for no reason at all. They could end up not paying the gambler. And more reasons. So fairness provability is not really a guarantee.

When playing gambling, I rarely check provably fair gambling sites, because before using gambling sites, I'm always read
reviews of gambling sites, and make sure the gambling site I use has a good reputation too. So there's no need to prove
my bet is pure luck or not. And if I feel uncomfortable with the gambling site I'm using, I'll look for another gambling site.
Because now there are so many choices of gambling sites that we can indeed use.

Without having luck, it is not possible to win the game. Before he loses his money, which he can't accept, it is better to realize that the gambling site can take all of his money, no matter if that site is provably fair or not. We know that the gambling site can do that, but I don't think that the reputable gambling site will cheat their members because that can ruin their members' reputations. So the gambling site will manage their reputations to be trusted by their members.

I don't really believe on that, sorry.

So if you are betting on a certain game, and you believe you are not lucky, would you know you will lose?

I think probability is more realistic than thinking of luck.

You must Learn first what gambling will you playing and which site has a higher rate of fairness though w already knew that Gambling site will never let us win over them but at least the gaming is with fairness and not pure losing.

And also there are gambling that Needs knowledge and experience and that is from Sports betting,Like boxing if you are familiar with both fighter then you'll have a capacity to estimate and evaluate the out come of the game.

Though this is not 100% accurate but at least 50% and up we may Hit the game but surely most of them is with lower odds.

Luck cannot be measured by any means, it is just a mentality every person I think can say to justify their losses and winning in a non-skill based games.

You can also say that this is a concept made to simply explain what probability is. luck and probability can have the same meaning depending on the usage, and they are both needed by a gambler depending on the point of view of the user. Ergo, Luck is just a simplified version of probability but turned into a characteristic.

I used to belive in luck that's why i am not that so engaged in gambling because i am a type of a person which a term luck isn't always on my side. I believe that there is some people who has a lucky day but it is not mean that this lucky would always happened. And yes gambling can take what we have because in gambling we have a 50/50 of probability of chance of winning and losing that why from this I can't take the idea of taking the risk that someday might take of what i have earned.

I do the same it's time-consuming, I do that when I have a suspicion about the way things are coming out, the gambling site I'm playing and going to play has zero complaints about the results, what's important to me is how they end payout to their users, what's a provably fair if it has a bad reputation to speak of.

Got it there mate because whats the sense of high Fairness in game but when comes to withdrawal there will be always an issue.it doesn't matter how the game flow as long as there are no clear or obvious in cheating because in the end of the day gambling is still Luck base and what is the outcome will depend on that so we must always look at the reputation in payments ,that is what most gambling sites fail as they did not anticipate the chance of players hitting jackpot orat least huge amount.and since they are not prepare then what they do is either banned the user or just get away and forget about the business reputation.