Bitcoin Forum

So, I've been working on this for awhile and I'm in the later (hopefully final) prototype stage of a new type of Cold Storage and Bitcoin Vault device. Like a physical bitcoin, but more of a personal vault. It is beautiful, solid, secure, wireless (NFC), durable, multi-sig compatible, very nearly counterfeit proof (The CIA can probably counterfeit anything), clone proof (again, the CIA probably could) and if all the kinks in the manufacturing process can be ironed out, provide a truly random source of entropy for creating secure bitcoin transactions. (Hopefully it will also be a little bit smaller)

So here's hoping. A lot of work has going into this baby, and I'm still not there yet but it's a work in progress.

http://i.imgflip.com/82y8a.gif

Small gif, hopefully will have a new round of prototypes in a couple weeks. The light is the sun glinting off it- i can only wish it could make that light itself!

EDIT: And you don't have to trust the manufacturer to use it!

Interesting; would their be a way to disable NFC if one so chooses? (Small switch or something...)

Looks like a cool product to store BTC!   :D

How soon do you think you'll have it available? I'd purchase as soon as you have it in stock (please don't do that whole pre-order thing!)

There would be a way to disable the NFC- but I wouldn't do it with a switch. It's really enough to just block the radio waves. Although really, for the purposes it's designed for, it's probably not necessary. The device is not intended (at the moment) to be reprogrammable or tradable. It's meant for long term storage, and once the NFC is locked, it's locked. But it's a good idea.

As for pre-orders. No, we've seen enough of that. I'll probably sell them in batches until I work up enough capital to make them in bulk. I still have to work on the software as well. :-)

Good to know; I look forward to seeing this develop.

Sounds nice cant wait to test it

Wow looks great kinds of reminds of the superman crystal, anyway would be nice to see bitcoin cold storage like that, let me know when u have it out.

The superman crystal was actually an inspiration. I'm glad someone picked up on it already.

Here is another shot of the current prototype. Next iteration should be a bit smaller, more uniform in the color (This is as tricky process- it's coated with a really special process using plasma lightning in a super hot vacuum chamber, using a badass technology that was previously used to coat warheads or other such military uses by the soviets. Indeed the factory is in one of the post-communist states. The coating is ultra hard. Seriously crazy/cool.)

https://i.imgur.com/P9pcCCc.jpg

The idea is for it to be a one time use only- you put your bitcoin inside, and you store it away for that one day when bitcoin hits $1 million. The idea came originally from my attempt to laser engrave bitcoin private keys inside diamonds. It's a fantastic idea, but there's no way to get away from the fact that you have to trust the manufacturer. These devices you don't have to trust the manufacturer (me) at all to use it.

But I wanted to pick up on the same sort of value and, nearly, durability of diamonds. A problem with paper wallets is they aren't necessarily obviously valuable to everyone. Nor are QR codes on objects. So I thought to make a device that if someone like your descent were to find, they would naturally protect the device and recognize that it has value, even if they don't know what it really is. Hopefully should help to prevent accidentally lost bitcoins, and because the device is not cheap, it's like a piece of sculpture or art, it should also make anyone tempted to panic sell think twice before destroying the device to get the bitcoin inside. Yes, to obtain the bitcoin inside, it must be destroyed. :-)

What if someone accidentally generate the same address from a private key that is stored in your device ? Can u stop that guy ? If a seed is coming from linear congruential generator, it may be traced back. I understand chances are very very veryyyyyyyyyyy low... but

Very cool! Looks pretty too! We should collaborate!

For those that have Android, GreenAddress.it Android Wallet app offers NFC login  (and soon NFC payment functionality).

The wallet is both multisignature and BIP0032 enabled.

You can save your mnemonic login on NFC during registration or from settings.

When the NFC card (or object ^__^)  is put close to the phone the App starts and autologins.

Is not perfect or uber fast but it does its job and we're working on improving it, as usual all feedback and suggestions are highly welcome.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I entirely understand, but in general- the idea that two seperate individuals might generate the same address, while possible, is so statistically low, you're more likely to win every lottery ever held in the course of human history. So, that's not really an issue.

There could be an issue if someone were to attempt to perhaps get ahold of any manufacturing documents, and then try to brute force every bitcoin address ever created using this as a way to increase the odds in the attackers favor.

Simply salting the encryption with your own person password solves this problem however.

That said, the possessor of all m-of-n devices has access to the bitcoins, so you still have to protect the device itself. But another one of the inspirations was that we already know how to pretty well defend things like gold, so you simply take the same precautions you would use for something of really high value (gold, diamonds, etc) and you should be okay.

Sure! PM me! I'm trying to see if Andrea's Andorid wallet can be integrated so that you can save your backups directly into the device. :-)

What about using a deterministic approach?
Random key pairs are more prone to random corruption and require backups regularly.

Actually I decided to stay away from any key generation myself. There are great utilities out there already and I don't want to reinvent the wheel with the possibility for error. Additionally it will work for any other cryptocurrency out there, as well as passwords themselves.

That is one sweet ass cold storage device.  Keep working on it, you got a price for that little thingy?

Thanks! No price so far, they won't be inexpensive though as there is a lot that goes into them. Also, I am thinking to sell them in packs of 3 to encourage multi-sig use for them. But we will see how it goes! If I get a high volume the price could go down, but I also plan to sell them with nice packaging and special container to (hopefully) make them EMP proof during storage and unreadable by nefarious 3rd parties.

I don't get how it works. I assume you will tell us in time but can you elucidate how it might be better than a usb stick?

Well it's better then a USB stick for a number of reasons, although it's not as multi-purpose as a USB stick. For one, to access your bitcoin, you have to destroy the device, meaning that it's one time use only. With my device you can be sure if you put it in your safe deposit box, and come back to it in 5 years, if it's still there and in one piece, then no one has accessed it without your knowledge. The same can't be said of the USB stick.

Also, once you lock the device, it is unchangable. Meaning that in 5 years time if your device is still intact, you know the data is also unchanged. The devices are also very, very, difficult to counterfeit in the details, so if you keep track of how the unique characteristics of the device look, you also know, within relative certainty that your device has not been substituted with a different device. You can't say that either of a USB stick. It's also very hard to say that of a paper backup. Yes you can encrypt your paper backups, but then you need to backup the password of your backup and now you have two things to keep track of. With this device, the idea is it's all self contained. You need only keep track of this device to secure your bitcoin.

Additionally with new NFC technology, you can be certain that the chip inside is exactly your chip- it has a unique authenticity signature, non-clonable, and most usefully, an access counter. Meaning that if your device has been scanned 5 times at the time you put it into your safe deposit box, and after 5 years you scan it an it says it's been scanned 6 times, then you know someone has illicitly gained access to it (edit: ATTEMPTED to gain access).

The idea is that it's a long term storage device. You set it, (multiple ones for multi-sig) and then you put it somewhere safe and you don't have to worry about it. My bank for example has some very specific terms governing the insurance on their safe deposit boxes and this device could help you set your terms regarding insurance if someone were to access your box.

Most the technological advantages of the device are available from the NFC chip right out of the box (access counter, etc...) but combined with a nearly non-counterfietable, secure device and it's a rather novel solution. The idea of making it an expensive, somewhat luxury device is intended to appeal to users who are looking for something a bit upmarket to hold their money, and something that can stand the test of time somewhat better. When I thought of making an expensive, aesthetic device it was with an eye towards a situation myself where my early bit address QR codes got thrown out as they were mistaken for trash. This wouldn't be mistaken for trash, even by someone who has never heard of bitcoin. It's also unique from anything else a person might have in their normal life. I have a pile of USB sticks in front of me for example, and I've never been so careful as to label them with what is on it. The price of the device, it's uniqueness and it's valuableness will serve to help users protect and care for their bitcoin in ways that are a bit easier to keep track of in normal life.

In short, protecting your passwords and bitcoin is quite difficult for regular people, and to be done comprehensively needs specific training and procedures to ensure the integrity of your secrets. It's not really quite as simple as saving them on a USB stick.

That said however, if you're the type of person that can handle your security on your own, and you don't have any people in your life who know nothing about security who might need to access your bitcoin to pay for your medical care in the case where you get into a car crash and are in a coma, then yes- USB sticks could probably work just fine for you. But with this device you could give one to your lawyer, one to your wife and one in a safe deposit box- and assuming your Lawyer and Wife don't gang up on you, you can rest fairly sure your bitcoin are safe. Indeed, even if you wife and Lawyer gang up on you, in a court of law you could prove they did it simply by demanding they produce the device intact- which if they did gang up on you, it would be impossible for them to do.

You can't say that about a USB stick.

But it's not for everyone. So lets see. Maybe down the line I'll make a more affordable version if it's possible.

all u need to do is AES 256 encrypt the private key and store the encrypted data on your google drive

That is the same situation as your USB key however. In this case however, you are actually giving a copy of your data to the NSA to try and crack. Not everyone has strong passwords (very few people do) and not everyone is good at not reusing passwords, and then you still need to backup that password as well. You're not going to google drive that as well, right? So what does a regular person do- write it down? On a piece of paper? And then put that where? And inform their next of kin of it's existence how?  It's entirely doable for some people, but not all people, and this product is for them.

Not to mention, 2FA for google is a smart idea, but what do you do in the event you are in a car crash that has left you in a coma and your phone with Google authenticator destoryed? Now you're wife is looking at you in the hospital bed trying to convince google of what- that they should give her access to your Google drive?

I'm not saying it's not possible, or realistic or doable, just that when bitcoin gets to regular people, it becomes more complicated. For most people that use "1234" as their password, AES encryption and storing it on servers they don't control, isn't exactly a solution. (Or it's a solution just until Google gets hacked, sold, or malware sniffs it.)

This is a KISS product. Keeping it simple. :-)

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/k8LqlMzEe-I/maxresdefault.jpg

Almost Human's version. Before I really knew what bitcoin was, I saw this episode where they used this device, scanned it and were able to see how much bitcoin the owner had in his account.

 ;D

It doesn't need to be cheap. This device, in my mind, is for people storing more wealth than they can afford to lose.

In that light, a price range of $100-$200 each would seem reasonable from my perspective. Is that in the ballpark of what you were thinking of?

Have you thought of mass producing it when it is ready ?

I'm not sure if I will go the "all-out" mass production route when it's ready. Mass production would reduce the non-counterfeitable properties of the devices by making the manufacturing process a little bit too similar between units. There will always be small differences that could be used to tell your device apart, but it's important that they aren't TOO small to be clearly noticed. In the current design there is a manufacturing 'flaw' that works as non-forgable fingerprint of each device. Mass production would all but eliminate this.

Also, I'm not sure if I want to go that route anyway. I work in the luxury sector for my day job as is, and there are a lot of exciting touches you can add to things in a bespoke way. But lets see!

Does it have a tracker function? It would suck if someone loses it, I've lost my wallets before (actual wallets)

No it does not. But I don't think someone would really want something like that. If you can track it, (a la iphone "find my phone") then the government/hackers/anyone could track it. Rich people don't exactly put their gold in a box and then transmit it's location so it's easy to find. Even if it is stored in a bank, they still keep that information secret.

One of the purposes behind this device is privacy. You store your own bitcoin, yourself. It simplifies this process, but it lets you have control over it. You don't have to trust anyone else to use it.

Well this is a physical storage, it can be lost, broken, or stolen, but I guess that will be the owner's worries

Indeed it can, although it should be used with multi-sig meaning that you can spread access to your bitcoin across as many devices as you think is feasible to protect, thus protecting you from breaking, losing or having a device stolen. If it's 2 of 3 for example- you can keep one at home, one in a safe deposit box and one with a lawyer. In the event you die in a house fire (lets hope not) your lawyer could still ask the court to open your safe deposit box, and with his own device, get access to your bitcoin to distribute to your estate.

The device really isn't intended in this incarnation to be something you carry around with you or trade with friends. Maybe a future device, but this one is for long term planning.

Im really liking this. no one will casually toss it out when going through ones estate.

reminds be of the data storage crystals from babylon 5.

a question, and probably a stupid one at that. its one time use and user programmable (right?) and one is not able to check the key without destroying it.  so when programming it is there a checksum or md5 or whatever to verify it took the key? sure would suck to transfer a fortune to it and have it wrong.

Thanks!

I'm working on the software, which is turning out to be the hardest part. Indeed I'm thinking to maybe approach other people about integrating it into their products, as software dev isn't my strong point and I need to outsource it. Otherwise perhaps I will seek some sort of investment to handle this part. The tech inside is standard NFC so theoretically you could buy one and repurpose it for anything.

Something I had thought about was an "escape transaction": something like a transaction you pre sign in advance that transfers everything to another address in event something goes wrong. These devices are storing your private keys only, so theoretically you could sign a transaction to another address, an address that does not yet exist on the blockchain for example, and keep track of that private key separately. The escape transaction is worthless without having the receiving private key so it could be kept around in a less secure environment, (or encrypted online) as a fail-safe. Not sure yet.

I'm looking forward to see what people think about it!

This looks really cool  8)

Great work!

...

@ crazy_rabbit

Your device looks like it will fill a hole in BTC storage options.  Good luck!  Once you are in reliable production, keep us informed!

I like very much your idea of EMP-proof packaging.  Make your device very tough too!

I saw a little bit of chatter on IRC about the device and wanted to clarify something- It is not made from plastic, it is made from glass. :-)

To me the primary attribute for cold storage is durability.

If I print out a deterministic wallet seed key on multiple copies of acid free paper and laminate and store them, this is guaranteed to last centuries (with the exception of theft or destruction). If there is a problem with one copy, others exist. If there are problems with all copies, advanced methods exist to read old paper and extract the information.

So how durable are these things? Do they rely on physical hardware chips? Hardware fails all the time. Additionally are there multiple storage elements inside in case one or more components fail? If all hardware components fail, how can you extract the keys?

My point is cold storage needs to be durable and remove any central points of failure. Without this there is a lot of risk. With paper backups risks are much lower. (Yes there is theft and fire, but these issues exist for this device as well)

looks stylish!  :D

http://i.imgflip.com/82y8a.gif

Whether there's bitcoin in them or not, everybody is going to want one of these!

Ok so... in 3 brief sentences or less, can someone explain how this works?

It also doubles as a dildo.

All valid points- this device is based off NFC technology which is quite durable. That said however, the idea is to use them in multiples where each one holds the key to one of the private keys required of some m-of-n Multisig transaction. So in this case you can plan for the possibility of failure: a possibility that does exist for paper as well (fire, etc....). The method of failure may be different, but statistically, it's still failure.

 The Multiple storage elements in each case is a good idea though, and should be technically possibly with the newer NFC chips. That would increase reliability although one has to consider what the percent of failure would be related to just the hardware failing versus the whole device being somehow compromised/destroyed/lost/etc....

I don't have anything against paper backups, I think they are a smart and reliable way of storing your bitcoin. That said, I think paper backups have some human disadvantageous that can in themselves lead to loss of bitcoins unintentionally. For one- it's going to be very hard to protect your acid free paper from prying eyes. Even if you put it into a bank vault it will be hard to be sure no one has seen your private keys. Paper wallets have no system to guarantee the integrity of their 'secrets'. Sure you could do things like sign over the envelope opening or use a hologram/wax seal, but these are all pretty easy to defeat in terms of security measures. Additionally, it's going to be very hard to be sure, when you do go to redeem your bitcoins, that you are actually redeeming your original paper wallet, and that it hasn't been swapped out for a decoy at some interim point. An attacker could swap out your encrypted paper wallet for a decoy with some small error in the private key, trick you into attempting to redeem your keys (and observe you entering your password- or even more sneakly, set themselves up to be the person you ask to 'try it themselves' while you freak out that it's not working) take your password and redeem the real copy of the backup.

I've got lots of scenarios like that in my head. :-)

Additionally, paper wallets don't particularly look valuable to non-bitcoin people. I've had paper wallets accidentally thrown out because they looked like trash. A really well done paper wallet should ideally just be a sheet of paper filled with seemingly random characters. That looks like trash to most people, and could get your fortune shredded or trashed without much of a second though. I'm not sure about your bank, but at one of mine, the safe deposit box I have has insurance stipulations attached. This device could help to develop an insurance condition regarding when they consider that your deposit box has been compromised. It's not insignificant that the device is virtually impossible to counterfeit. If your device is intact, in one piece, then you know it's secure. The NFC technology has its own layers of security- you can check to see exactly how many times the device has been scanned. So if your device is in one piece, if it's scan counter is unchanged, if the authenticity stamp inside the chip is correct, then you know with pretty high certainty that your device is still secure. It's hard to say that of a piece of laminated paper.

This device is not only durable in terms of hardware (not as durable as paper, but you have to compensate for that with numbers) but it's also durable itself. It's glass, designed to break when you really intend to break it (IE: with a hammer or something) and looks valuable in-and-of-itself, meaning people are highly unlikely to trash if they just stumble across it. Despite the fact that it has a somewhat familiar "shape" to some people, the device looks unlike anything probably anyone has in their normal life. Meaning it will stand out in any situation.

My device is not a Trezor, offline signing wallet, or piece of paper. It's a device that is intended for a small segment of bitcoiners who would like to add a durable, secure and luxurious addition to their security planning. It looks *really* good. You buy three, keep one at home, one with your lawyer and one in a safe deposit box. Or buy five, and put them on all the continents. If you are paranoid about device failure- you presign a transaction to an escape address and then protect the priv-key of that transaction and escape address in some different fashion. If the device fails, you broadcast the transaction, and the bitcoins move onto your escape address. Of course, the more complicated your security procedure, the more prone to error it might be, but it's doable. Indeed you could encrypt the presigned transaction with the serial from inside the device, meaning you only need the physical remains of the device (not the NFC chip) to decrypt the presigned transaction. This way you keep all your 'secrets' with the devices and need only keep track of them.

Hahaha. Unintentional similarity, although it is solid glass, and thus easy to sterilise, and I suppose there are a few nasty borders you could cross with this hidden........

Not that I'm advocating anything.  ;D

EDIT: Try that with your paper wallet.

I would love this as a backup of my private keys

Used In conjunction with something like trezor, you should make two versions  ;)

A Trezor with a NFC reader would be very exciting indeed.

EDIT: there is no reason why you couldn't/shouldn't store your Trezor seed inside this device.

For people who aren't familiar with cold storage, can we get a brief explanation of what purpose this device serves?

Yes! My first thought was: "Holy cow! Antimatter now available for recreational use."

Amazing! Following this.


ya.ya.yo!

Really hope it will be commercialized one day . But need to wait for the price to drop tho.

Like smartphones when it first came out

Has an estimated price been established yet? Someone asked if 100-200 was in the ballpark but I don't think that was responded to.

Just to quickly answer a few questions:

It is intended as a long term bitcoin storage solution. It uses NFC technology to hold your data: wireless and no batteries. It is intended to be used in multiples so that a person uses it with multi-sign or duplication to avoid the possibility of electronics failure. It should be completely sealed, and made from glass. Thus waterproof, relatively heat proof, submersible, etc... The glass is fairly durable, but not so durable that you can't break it. The idea is that once your data is written to the NFC chip inside, you lock it permanently, and then to redeem the data inside you must break the device open to obtain the main password to decrypting the device NFC chips which is kept on the inside.

There is still a bit of design testing to do with the device, although this 3rd generation prototype is functional, there are still manufacturing things that need to be solved. So it's back to the foundry! I have one of the most talented product designers for glass in the Czech Republic as the designer, so it's really high end. As for price, not sure yet, but definitely the 100-200 range for a set (min 3) of them is likely, but there is still a bit of work to be done as it's not so simple as I originally thought so I would rather not quote prices.

I am unlikely to mass produce them for a specific reason: These devices are hand made, and a specific part of the process ensures that each individual device is unique and counterfeit proof. It would be next to impossible to make a duplicate device. This is important as it ensures your device is truly yours, meaning that if left alone for 5 years and you come back to find it intact, you can be sure no one has had access to your bitcoin in the meantime. I discuss below why this is valuable. Of course, when it's ready I will make a nice website with product info, etc....

The device is intended to be a bit upmarket and luxury- the first truly luxury bitcoin device. It's beautiful. And by doing in small batches it's also possible to do a fair amount of personalisation.

Packaging will also be important, as they should be shipped shielded so as to be impossible to read by NFC tech in transit, as well as in storage. A proper container would also make it EMP proof by creating a good faraday cage around it. Beyond just solid function, it should also be beautiful.

So, still a number of plans to make before I can really lock down prices or full functionality, but I wanted to start seeing what people were thinking.

This is very cool, I just dont see how we can be 100% sure that the chips or whatever electronics will still work in 5 years ect, cds, usb sticks, memory cards, are not exactly "long term" in lifetime, why should this last longer?

Well it 'should' last longer, but it's true- any sort of device like this has it's own limits. NFC is pretty durable however, especially if you don't use it very often. If in doubt, sign an 'escape' transaction prior to committing your BTC to the devices, and that should cover you. That said though- i suspect there will have been some big changes in the next 10 years for bitcoin that will probably require some sort of update anyway though.

Looks like a dildo.

Only if it vibrates although duly noted since I did note the sheen it had
(But I guess that is one of the safest ways to hide it ...)

Anyways it should be very durable as crazy_rabbit said unless you use it that way then ...
On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?

Cold storage that can be accessed wirelessly sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me. That it's shaped like a dildo doesn't help.

>>On that topic is it water proof or water resistant ?

Yes, it should be completely sealed in glass, thus waterproof. A few small challenges remain in doing this, but that is the plan.

>>Cold storage that can be accessed wirelessly sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.

It's not really a contradiction. It's wireless only in the sense of there aren't any 'wires', but it can't communicate without a NFC reader directly near the chip reading it. Also all the data stored on the chip is intended to be encrypted, with the decryption information inside the device and *not* accessible wirelessly. So once the chip is encrypted and locked, there is no worries about 'wireless' theft. So no, it's not a contradiction.

>>That it's shaped like a dildo doesn't help.

The next version will be smaller and thus perhaps less reminiscent of your fears. That said, the shape is irrelevant to the function beyond the practical considerations of sealing a microchip in glass.

Yeah that's another thing. Glass isn't exactly durable now is it? What happens if I drop it? Or it gets run over by a lorry? It needs to survive being run over by large moving objects before I consider it durable and long lasting.

Looks like a neat idea. Good luck CrazyRabbit.

If you look back to an earlier point in this thread I think you will understand why it's glass.

If you are expecting that maybe it might get run over by a lorry, then this product isn't for you. Yes you could drop it and it could break. The same can be said for your mobile phone. Don't drop it. The device isn't intended to be handled on a daily basis. You get it, set it, and forget about it: Preferably somewhere safe other than your pocket or on the road.

The reason it is glass is that it NEEDS to be breakable. It's a one time use only device. You break it open to get the decryption password inside. You can't put it back together in a perfect way so you know it's genuine and untouched. I couldn't find a way to do that with plastic or any other material that is anywhere near realistic to manufacture. Glass is one of those few special materials.

Actually yes- you can make a glass device that is nearly unbreakable, that would survive lorries, etc.. But then what would the point be? You need your decryption password inside and not even a sledgehammer will break it open? Glass is a good balance for durability. The device will be think enough to hopefully survive small drops, but not so thick as to be unbreakable.

I suspect this is something I'm going to have to clarify many times in the life of this product: It is not intended for everyday use. It is INTENDED to be broken. It ASSUMES you will take care of it and protect it. It is not a sock draw/pants pocket/toss around foot ball product. If you need something to sign keys: I would recomdend to buy a trezor. If you want to store you bitcoin seed for your trezor, but this product, but the seed in it, encrypt, put it in your bank vault, and sleep easy.

Please don't leave them around in the street for lorries to run over it. :-)

The term NFC doesn't tell much about the type of IC you're using or even the encryption/protection technology employed.  I'm assuming you're using an off-the-shelf RFID IC.  If you tell everyone which IC is used in the design, everyone can go fetch the datasheet and observe the data retention spec and what the protection scheme employed is.  If you're not willing to say which actual IC, even the frequency (125kHz? 13.56MHz?) and protection technology (MIFARE DESfire/EV1/EV2?) would at least be something.  From there, everyone will be able to better assess (a) how long the data is likely to be (accurately) retained by the device, and (b) what the strength of the encryption/protection scheme employed is and that it isn't designed around an NFC solution that has already been compromised (like, say, MIFARE Classic).

Not sure there's much use not disclosing which RFID IC is used.  As soon as people have them, someone's going to probe it with an RFID reader or Proxmark and fingerprint the IC (assuming it's an off-the-shelf IC), and then everyone will know anyway.

Off-the-shelf RFID IC's don't have unlimited data retention (same situation with most EEPROM and flash technologies).  As an example, the MIFARE DESfire line of RFID IC's spec a minimum data retention of 10 years.  They'll probably still be readable without flipped bits for some time beyond that, but that is not guaranteed.

this look realy good!!!

I understand most of this but one aspect is a bit fuzzy to me.

it must be broken to redeem. the password to decrypt the NFC data is etched inside in some fashion? on something that is not destroyed by breaking the glass but not visible or scannable (say by a CT scanner)?

just how unbreakable is it. I mean I can swing a hammer really hard :) could one break it "too hard" to the point the password is not recoverable? or the NFC chip is broken? or do you read the chip data before breaking it?  perhaps (brief) instructions should be somehow visible when looking at the thing by eye? 30 years from now it may not be easy to figure out what this is if a decedent of mine finds it with no instructions.

that is a pretty sharp looking gizmo.  I'm intrigued but also anxiously awaiting more details even thought this seems to be in the R&D stages.  I was just thinking I wonder what crazy_rabbit is up to these days and now I know.   ;)

The only reason I haven't said is that I haven't decided. I started with the DesFire 4K but NXP has new, potentially more exciting models out and now I'm going to be testing with the NTAG216. There is no secret behind the IC itself. The technology is secure enough to work for this product, being able to 'sniff' the data, or steal the data, does nothing to alter the integrity of the device. All data stored on the chip is intended to be encrypted by the user.  So if you really did let someone sniff your chip somehow, then you're still just as secure as before. Bruteforcing the encrypted data would be the same as brute forcing your bitcoin public key. Makes no difference.

Memory retention is the only issue here that should be worried about- indeed minimum 10 years is a pretty good start. Once again though, you could just print out the encrypted data from the chip and store it with the device if you were really worried about this. Still doesn't change the integrity of the device.

I am not engineering a custom NFC device. There are too many security issues that would crop up from somehow designing my own security system and chip. This is off the shelf, standard components. No tricks, no surprises. I may even offer a choice of chip to users: Desfire 4K or NTAG216.

Oh, it's not unbreakable. It IS breakable. How resistant it is to breaking is still to be determined. I'm still thinking about the "breaking too hard" problem though. Obviously pulverising the device would be a bad idea, but it's hard for me to quantify how much force someone might put into breaking it. Thus far the designers and myself have concluded that the device should be relatively easy to break so as to not encourage anyone to over do it in trying to break it and thus destroyed the password inside. The compromise however is that we need to expect users to treat the device with care and not, as someone else mentioned, leave it around in street to be run over by trucks. It is really intended to be handled like a valuable object, where it's value is contingent upon it not being broken. People seem to do a pretty good job of this in general: Expensive jewels, expensive vases, expensive pieces of art. Sure things get knocked over once and while, but if it's in a safe deposit box or your home safe, it should be pretty okay. Even paintings by great painters get dug out of the trash by automechanics who then go on to protect them without knowing their true value. Hence the idea of making it looks REALLY special. People will be inclined to treat the device well.

As for CT scanning it. At the moment I'm limited in how thoroughly I can test this. But there are a few ways to mitigate the threat of some exotic method of scanning a device: Multi-Sig and Salting. Simply salting the password with something that's not contained in the device can make it impractical to attempt to scan (although now you need to protect your salt). The other thing is, you can simply require more then one device to access your bitcoin- Multisig. Meaning as long as you can do a good job ensuring that at least some number of your devices can't fall into the hands of someone who might scan them, you should be okay.

The device is intended to simplify storing your bitcoin securely, but of course, the greater the resources of your potential attacker, the greater lengths you will need to go to thwart their efforts.


Also, this device doesn't have to be just for bitcoin. You could store your gmail password, or any other short string of data in it.

Given the choice, I'd tend to steer well toward the "new, potentially more exciting models" of the MIFARE line that are available.  Even if you're not relying on any security in the NFC solution at all, and you're using it as effectively an openly read/writable storage device with security equivalent to just using a USB thumb drive, there's still going to be a public perception issue in that DESFire's security mechanism was cracked 2.5 years ago and exploits are readily available.  If you meant DESFire EV1 or EV2, that perception problem might not exist (yet), until someone develops a similar attack for EV1 or EV2.  If it's the original DESFire you're targeting, the EV1, EV2 and MIFARE Plus would tend to be viable alternatives.  The original 4 variants of the DESFire IC have actually been end-of-lifed by NXP due to publication of exploits to bypass the DESFire security.



Actually, if you're not going to use the security features and access control of the RFID chip at all and are just going to use it as read/write data storage, you could probably safely homebrew a solution as well without compromising security relative to a DESFire 4K.  Effectively the security of a DESFire 4K IC is currently equivalent to an open-access EEPROM.

You have me curious about the security model you're planning to use.  If arbitrary ability for anyone to read the EEPROM off the RFID IC (even from quite a few feet away if you've seen some of the fun antennas people have come up with for the Proxmark) isn't important to the security model, are you planning to make the hidden key stored within the glass be the private key for an asymmetric cipher, with a public key otherwise available to the user (printed?) external to the glass (and/or visible through it), and all the actual cryptography will just occur in software external to the device with the user entering the public key?  Or have you designed it such that the user generates their own private key, prints it, then somehow seals it within the glass capsule after the device is already in the user's possession?  The concept of storing the private key to decrypt the data on the RFID tag within a break-once glass capsule is a neat idea, though I haven't quite grasped how the execution of the crypto is going to work here.  All of the ways I've been able to imagine interpreting your description so far result in the private key existing outside of the glass at some point in time in advance of the final glass breaking ceremony when the device fulfills it's purpose.

Not that I'm questioning your design or anything, just playing devil's advocate to help make sure you've contemplated the attack vectors and how the crypto side of things is going to work out, and arrive at a product with superior, well thought-out-security.   :)

Thats dense- I'll do it step by step:

I'm skipping the MiFare line as I understand they aren't fully compatible with Samsung/Android phones and other makes of phone. That said, I'll be making them in small batches, so if someone wanted something custom inside, it wouldn't be a problem. Precious Metals or Diamonds (or Diamonds with laser engraved private keys) are all possible things, but I'm trying to keep it simple to start. I had not planned on using the Desfire 4k's built in cryptographic functions. But you're right on the perception thing. The security isn't relevant, but yeah, people will probably react before really reading how it works, so that might be a good idea.

As for engineering a custom type of chip- I guess it's really just necessary at this point. I thought about sticking something like an arduino inside, but then, I don't quite see the point. The more complicated the device, the more complicated it will be to bring to market- regardless of how simple. It's hard enough trying to figure out how to seal the glass properly without destroying the chip and keeping structure intact. Like this users can use standard NFC software from NXP to encode the chip and work with the chip as they please. The novelty is the combination of these elements in the device in this fashion, not really the technology.

As for the Security model:

Basically you've got it exactly right. There is a bitcoin private key inside the device (NOT INTENDED TO HOLD FUNDS) and a public key which is given to the users. The user then encrypts their own secret with the public key, or public key+salt and then stores the encrypted data on the chip. To get decrypt the encrypted data, they break the container open, get the private key, regenerate the public key, optionally add their salt, and decrypt the encrypted data on the chip. (Or I may have more then on chip inside where the salt could be stored, etc...)

I've put a lot of thought into it, and it seems to be one of the simplest solutions I could think of. Even if the user chooses not to salt their password, they need only to a) keep it secure and protect it (as they would any other physical object of value, like gold), b) use multisig c)store the different multisig devices separately, and they have a very secure solution within the realm of reason. 

To protect the device from unauthorised scanning, you simply slip it into it's protective container (essentially a metal tube) and it can no longer be scanned, and should be even safe from EMP.

You still have to take care when first encoding the device and transporting the device, but the new NXP chips have access counters, so you can keep track of the number of times the device has been scanned- an easy tip off to knowing if something sneaky is going on.

It's a clever mix of low-tech, high-tech and human support.

What do you think? I'd love to hear criticisms as I'm still prototyping.

you made it for yourself only or?

No, no, I'm going to sell them! Just have to fix a few things, get packaging, etc....

Couple thoughts:


I've never tried with a Samsung Android device.  But if that combination of hardware + Android causes trouble with the MIFARE line, you'll have problems with the DESFire 4K since it's part of the MIFARE line (it is literally the "MIFARE DESFire 4K").  NXP pretty much calls their entire line of 13.56MHz RFID IC's by the MIFARE trademark.  I have no experience with interacting with MIFARE from Samsung devices though so I can't say one way or the other which chips in the MIFARE line are compatible.



Random thought here, which country are you in?  This security model means you'll have the private keys (at least at the time of manufacture).  Just as an example, if you were in the US or are a US citizen, you could be compelled to produce the private keys to the US government via an NSL (National Security Letter).  If you didn't retain the private keys, at that point you're pretty much stuck in legal limbo unless you have a definitive way to prove the private keys are not in your possession (been there, but NSL's carry with them a gag order so details will not be forthcoming).  I'm unfamiliar with the regulations in other countries but wouldn't be surprised if similar regulations exist.  Given the libertarian bent of much of the Bitcoin adopter population, there's likely a good portion of them that actually see their government as one of the parties they're trying to guard their BTC (or other data) against.  Particularly over the last 10 months as views have started shifting to the possibility that various governments are actively acting as an aggressor and will stop at nothing to obtain data you hold dear or to seize your property (or as the IRS likes to put it, to "take your rights to own property" if anyone has received one of those love letters).

On the other side of it, the user will have to have trust in you that you did not retain the private keys.  I think if there is some way this could be structured such that you actually don't have the private keys, you'd have a really elegant solution.  Implementing such would probably depend on utilizing the security features of the NFC IC you select however, and trusting that access control of that IC will not be compromised (multiple members of the MIFARE family have already fallen to exploits, after all).  It would be a rather slick product if you arrived at a zero-trust solution in which you as the manufacturer never actually possess the private key (or at least the private key that actually encrypts the stored data).

I really liked the concept until you explained the details.

The user has to supply a "secret" or "private key" if you will. They need to keep it private, yet it has to look valuable enough that it won't be thrown in the trash.

I understand that the user needs to supply their own secret to avoid trusting the manufacturer, but that also implies that the device(s) are no longer self-contained.

For (Paper) "Bitcoin checks" I wanted to develop (but have been too lazy to): I instead focused on ways the manufacture could prove they printed a document. This, combined with the manufacture trying to prove to themselves that they or their employees can not inadvertently record the private keys, should be secure enough for transient storage.

I'm not in the US, and not manufacturing them in the US, but I am American. And for emphasis: The Key Pair in the device is NOT FOR STORING BITCOIN (emphasis for anyone reading this in a cursory manor)

You have a very good scenario- but I'm not so sure it's applicable to this case as a simple procedure will protect you from the government strong arming me as the manufacturer. The device is not intended to protect you from someone in possession of m-of-n devices. It is up to you to hide the devices from the 3rd parties. If you are really rich and really worried (I'm looking at you Karples) you put them in safe deposit boxes around the world. Or you bury them under apple trees. Or you drop one to the bottom of a lake. Etc... The government still has to posses m-of-n devices to make any use of any data they might force from me.

If this is a serious concern of a user- the solution is to make sure your encryption is properly salted. If you want, you can use another set of devices to protect your salt. If you trust the security of the NFC chip, you can leave it all inside the chip.

Security is always a significant trade-off. This device is to make estate planing easier, to ensure your spouse has access to your bitcoin in case you're in an accident and are in a coma and can't enter your wallet password.

Either you leave a way for the people you care about to be able to access your bitcoin in the event of an accident, you trust electronic technology completely, or you memorize the password in your head and take your chances. I like to think of this being a nice compromise between all these things. And if used correctly should keep people far safer with their bitcoin storage then they are now.

Well I hope I haven't lost you just yet.

There are still a few ways around this that I am experimenting with and I think it depends on what users are looking for. The lowest tech solution to this is simply writing with permanent marker on the device. Again, I can't protect users from a 3rd party that has the ability to seize all your devices (or m-of-n) devices, because if I could- that would defeat the purpose of allowing you to do things like estate planning or "you are in a coma we need your bitcoin to pay your medical bills" situation.

The market for this device is to protect you from yourself, more or less and the regular thieves that in the future will one day be after bitcoin too. The ability to which it protects you from the government depends on your ability to hide it from the government. Which is a reasonable trade off for most people. If this is a serious concern for you, and you don't mind your bitcoin going with you to the grave, there's no reason to not memorise a really exceptionally long brainwallet and leave it at that. If you want to access your bitcoin on a daily basis, and be secure, then Trezor is a better option.

This is for long term storage and planning of your bitcoin that doesn't require trusting me, the manufacturer, but also assumes that you can take care of protecting the device relatively well yourself, within reason considering whatever your situation might be. If at the very least, this eliminates the systemic threat that physical bitcoin manufactures pose. For all the people minting coins or printing plastic cards- the manufacturer has the ability to steal all the bitcoin of all the people who have ever purchased their products all at once. If I were to somehow get compromised, a 3rd party would still have to hunt down every user individually AND hunt down every m-of-n number of devices of very person AND still have to break whatever extra encryption or security strategy they may choose to employ. It's orders of magnitude more secure for the entire physical bitcoin ecosystem.

So I hope viewed through that perspective, you can keep your mind open. If you are so valuable that someone would commit themselves to hunting you down, and hunting every instance of this device that you own down, then you need to really consider some other options. If you're like many people coming into bitcoin now, investing 10K that might go to your kids college fund and you don't want to have to worry about Maleware getting it for the next 5 years, or getting married (like myself) and would like to have a joint "bitcoin savings fund" that you don't have to worry getting Goxxed, then this might just be perfect.

I get the impression the slug in the middle is hard to duplicate. What about the glass sleeve? is that marked somehow? Perhaps with an integrated marble?

BTW: I fear the greatest threat of Bitcoin loss is people loosing their encryption keys (assuming they are using some kind of sane cold-storage). M-of-N keys in multiple locations can really help protect against physical key destruction.

Thanks for the detailed response to my questions above, look forward to hearing more as this moves forward.

One thing to consider is support to backup not just a private key but also a deterministic wallet seed. For those of us that use deterministic wallets this would be more useful IMHO.

I know you said you don't want to get too specific on price but what you alluded to sounds more than fair to me. Can the glass be colored or does that complicate the process too much?

The way the device is closed is hard to duplicate, we seal it in such a way that there is a unique pattern that develops.  It's a tricky balance to get without thermally shocking it, and without heating it so much as to damage the chip. It should be nearly impossible (although perhaps the CIA could do it) that you could break the glass in such a way that you could put it back together without it being noticed. The outersleve is uniform in the glass 'flow', with special ribs, so tampering or attempting to 'reassemble' the device after breaking the device would be very obvious.

The middle slug/tube is hard to duplicate as well, but not nearly as hard as the outer construction as one piece. This part though is more mechanically functional in terms of the device appearance and less about security as the user won't really ever interact with the interior until it's broken.


I'm thinking to leave the NFC chip open for users to do as they wish and rather offer a guide as to how to potentially program it. I am developing some software, but there is such a variety of ways that a one might want to use the device that it seems perhaps more appropriate to let users work with the chips directly if they please. So yes- Deterministic wallet seeds would be supported as well.


Yeah, I'm hesitant to talk more about price until I've gotten the device design more clearly set.

Unfortunately, no the glass can not be colored. When I got started with this project, I imagine coloring glass was as easy as adding fruit coloring to jello. Turns out with glass if you get the ratio of color to glass wrong by even the smallest number of molecules the glass becomes extremely brittle or simply shatters.  I'm considering other processes- for example the glass tube on the inside has a really special coating to give it the nice color, although it's not colored glass itself. It's much harder to do then I had originally thought. Much more trial and error. :-)

Ah, but it's so pretty. If I bought it I would want to show it to everyone. What's the point of buying a shiny, expensive thing like this only to have it sit in a deposit box somewhere?

A bit like some Casascius coins!

You are supposed to use them with multi-sig and in a group of at least 3. Meaning at least one or two should be sitting somewhere safe. The third you can take out with you and show around no problem. But walking around with Titan Mint or Casacius coins is asking to get jumped and lose all your money, no? With this you can walk around with one, show it around no problem. Even if it's stolen you're still good. :-)

Walking around with a shiny glass phallus is asking to get jumped too.

You know  your idea is quite close to an idea I had myself the other day, but I am not in a position to realize that idea so I'll just share it.

My idea was to have 1oz gold or 1oz silver coins with a sort of chip in it with an encrypted private key and an unencrypted public key. With a standardized amount of bitcoin in the wallet when the coin is initially purchased. Of course the public key can be easily read because it's not encrypted.

The owner of the coin can read or (even better) use (without ever knowing the key) the private key using a decryption (possibly inside a ring or mobile phone or something) so the coin itself without the 'key' to decrypt it is only worth the precious metal. But once you have both the coin and the key to unlock it you have the value of the PM and the value of the bitcoins in it.

Not sure if it's feasible or even wanted but I thought it is an idea worth sharing.

the main problem with any kind of chip being used is the lifetime of the chip, nobody knows exactly how long they will last. Would you trust a usb stick to last 5 years?

Well, sexual innuendo aside. If you are robbed with a physical bitcoin like the commonly minted coins, your funds on that coin are lost. If you are robbed with this device, your funds are still safe.

Yes I would trust a USB stick to last 5 years. Unlike the many hard drives that have given up the ghost on my watch, I've been using USB sticks and other solid state media since their inception and never once had a problem that I can recall.

This problem can be partially mitigated by using multisig. It can be further mitigated by pre-crafting an 'escape' transaction that is not broadcasted but when used can transfer all the bitcoin stored onto the device to yet another address. It can be even further mitigated by printing out your private keys, encrypted with the private key that is physically inside the device.

There are a lot of ways to handle this scenario. It all depends on your ability to manage your secrets. This device should go a long way in helping you to do just that.

about the life of the chip.. when I think "long term" I think 30, 50 years. as in bury it in the ground or something and my myself or my descendants dig it up  and can use this device alone, with no other info, and recover the coins (assuming the technology to read it still exists).

having it with a lawyer as part of the traditional estate isnt an option if youre hiding it from *everyone*

if Im reading the specs right, this device alone then will not be suitable without some external object (printed keys as a backup to the data in the chip say). or can all that info be in the device itself, perhaps some printed on a slug inside thats not visible till broken? but then how does the user get that printed slug inside?

just thinking on possible uses as the glass enclosure itself should last for centuries, even if the chip itself fails or the tech to read it fades to obscurity.

EDIT: CT scanners are not exotic tech; we have one in the office (smallish multi provider medical practice). they are (relatively) common nowadays. point being that if a CT scanner can read the slug or whatever the physical media is in the device, just having it unbroken may not in itself be a guarantee its not compromised.

So as you say, physical security is important too.

A lot can happen in 50 years, and as happy as I would be if bitcoin is still around then and we are all wonderfully rich, it might be impractical for us to be thinking that the nature of the protocol as it exists to day will still be fundamentally the same in the next 50 years, if existing even at all. At the moment I am thinking for the lifetime of existing technology which I believe to be reasonable.

As I mentioned before- there are many different levels of hiding from *everyone*. You can't beat writing a novel in your head, memorising it word for word, and using that as the seed for your brain wallet. That my friend, is SECURITY.

But tradeoffs are tradeoffs and if you're hit in the head by a falling piano and laying in a coma, such security will more likely work against you rather then for you. After all, unless you really are a criminal, the chances you fudge up your cold-storage solution are much higher then being hunted for each of your m-of-n hidden devices.

Of course, I can't help but reference:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2SRtORS4qrI/UYV36voSuXI/AAAAAAAAAMQ/aR-HAYd0RtQ/s1600/xkcd_crypto_wrench_security.gif

EDIT: If you have a CT scanner, any chance when my device is ready I could send you one to scan? :-)

Looks like good, hope can develope

Yes, like they said, don't drop it, and I am sure you will be able to find some takers, what a great conversation piece, right?  ;D

Thanks! I'm on yet another round of prototypes. Basically trying to figure out the best way to solve a few tricky problems, also slowly starting to build on the 'business end' of the business. It's exciting though. I've decided I'm probably going to for sure stick with tried and true NFC tech, the latest being the NTAG216 series. It's just to risky to try and develop anything custom in terms of the electronics when it comes to storing funds. This way people can also develop around the device on their own. I'm hoping to have an initial version of software that allows you to save your Android Bitcoin Wallet backup directly into the device. We will see!

Current prototype history- working on new ones now to fix various issues. Trying to make it smaller, more svelte, higher manufacture quality, etc...

https://i.imgur.com/STfbVAK.jpg

I look forward to seeing how this develop will work. Good luch and patience!

That is SWEET!

Many years ago I went to the Lalique factory in france. As others have pointed out, this is very pretty and some would want to show it off. In addition to an NFC model, you could also make an empty device which people could insert an encrypted paper wallet or small flash drive/chip into. They could then keep one or two backups in a safe place and one on display (empty or not) without having to worry too much if it gets stolen. That might also allow you to get off the ground quicker and get some income to keep developing the ultimate model. It may also give you access to a wider audience than just the BTC community.

As to the dildo comments, have you seen the number of womens' deodorant sticks that look phallic? That is definitely a marketing plus.

That's a very interesting idea- Although I'm not sure how you could insert anything into it. The design like this is supposed to be entirely sealed making it water proof, but also making it nearly impossible for anyone to access the inner contents without it being obvious to you. If there is a way to put something inside of it, then you can probably take something out as well, or stick a really small camera inside, you know?

Actually the NFC tech isn't the bottle neck for this project. The bottle neck is working the glass surprisingly enough, something we hope to have sorted out soon.

Also, you can always show one off without worry if you use it with multisig, or if you split your private key. But I see what you mean. :-)

The first time I really read about crypto was a WWII novel called The Key to Rebecca when I was in my early teens. In that book, each of the parties had the same copy of a book called Rebecca and the code for each character in the encrypted message would list the page number, the line number and the letter. Horrible for a long message but not bad for a password. Impossible to break unless you knew the book. 

After having a look at the onename project,  https://onename.io/ (https://onename.io/) I am thinking to define a NFC standard for working with cryptographic applications and NFC.

NFC uses NDEF standard, but I was thinking that for universal compatibility with devices that might not even be NFC related, it might be a good idea to developed a JSON style standard for saving data on NFC chips (Or 'mini' json standard to save space).

This would allow multipurpose use of the device I am developing but also maybe could standardize this sort of thing for other devices as well. For example, originally I was thinking to store bitcoin wallets on the device itself (ones with limited number of keys) however HD wallets are slowly becoming the norm, so it would be more practicle and space saving to only save the seed, which depending on the NFC chip could leave room for other things like a OneName seed as well.

I hope you made more than one copy of cold storage. For example of you made a paper Waller have a hand full of copies. Wouldn't want to find out your "secure" copy got destroyed.

Please read the thread. m-of-n keys are the key here. Can be done with a Pay to Script Hash (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0012.mediawiki)

Small Update, still working on the prototype. I've decided to call the product a "KeyVault" and it's cryptoagnostic meaning it doesn't have to be for bitcoin. I envision it working with onename.io, mastercoin smart properties, bitcoin, bitmessage and many other crypto projects.  I have a new logo for the business as well- I hired the guy who made the "bitcoin logo" featured on Coindesk as I liked the look and wanted to hire a bitcoin fan. The company name is "Aeternum Cryptographic". :-)

https://i.imgur.com/7eTBHrb.jpg

I'm sure someone's probably suggested it already but isn't there an option for you to set up a crowdfunding/kickstarter campaign to generate funds and wider interest?

PS those protos are awesome. I'm definitely watching the progress.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. I'm very supportive of crowd funding, as I think it allows you to do some fantastic things, but it's a bit tricky at the same time. I've been talking with some mastercoin people about crowdfunding a-la MaidSafe with the mastercoin protocol. It seems more 'bitcoin' then doing a kickstarter after all, but what should I promise people in exchange? Devices? Shares in the company? Coupons redeemable at some future point? The bitcoin community can be very supportive, but I think people at this point will want to actually get something in return- it's hard to know what that should be.

Sounds like a quality product, no doubt it would benefit Bitcoin market security and will add another dimension of security to people who are not confident about Bitcoin.

Good luck mate, for sure I will try it when it comes out

Discounted products? A smaller lite promotional version? Or early buyers?

Update though if you decide to go that direction.

Yeah, like does it come with free lube?

You know, the shape might seem sexual, but functionally it's also the most secure shape. The fewer seems in the device, the more difficult it is for someone to find a way to open the device in a way you might not notice. This is the easiest method for being able to visually inspect the device.

>>>Discounted products? A smaller lite promotional version? Or early buyers?

I might consider this for the first run for example, "beta testers" as you will. Or maybe if I go the crowdfunding route at the start, a discounted version for the crowdfunders/early buyers.

Nice work :). The appearance is very futuristic. I can't quite think of what the look of it remind me of at the moment, but it looks really nice so far :)

You could always take that unwitting correlation and run with it - call them vibrator wallets...and I guarantee you'll have added an additional layer of security because NOBODY is gonna touch somebody's vibrator  ;D

It's two things that women want: money and dick.

At the risk of taking this down a darker road - just an addition to the above, there are very sweet little vibrators shaped like a tube of lipstick. Any sort of camouflage style wallet, be it a vibrator, a tube of lipstick, or some other innocuous design similar to the way they're doing usb sticks (even saw a little rubber bracelet that's a usb stick) would be a good concealment for additional security of just being overlooked as a useless thing.

I like this prototype because they're shiny and cool and interesting looking...and while I'd totally support you and buy one eventually, I can see the theft value in it also - we love awesome sci fi shiny tech gadgets.

Just a consideration for future "expansion" maybe :)

As a side note- I have registered aeternum.in for bitcointalk. I'll confirm it via my crazy_rabbit account later in my signature. Just as a FYI.

As for the 'womens pleasure products' angle. It's not really something I'm going after as it's not really related at all. The final device will be smaller then this, so the resemblance might be less. (I hope) :-)

I can confirm. It's me. :-)

Interesting. Never thought of it that way. Have you considered a hockey puck shape? A flat circle. Easy to pocket and likely will have few seams. Also you can lay it flat on a surface without it rolling about and potentially breaking.

I did consider the hockey puck shape, it really is a good idea and indeed one of the early prototype designs was exactly this sort of shape. The catch is that the physical process we use to weld the glass and thus create the unique "finger print" for each device is very, very difficult to build into a hockeypuck shape as we are limited with the diameter we can work with. Also, certain amounts of glass layers are needed to protect the NFC chip from the extreme heat of Glass welding. The Hockey Puck shape just didn't work out for these reasons. The idea is the same though- a cylinder of some sort. Once the final prototype is done though I will explain one thing that is very special about the glass in this device which would be hard to implement on the hockeypuck. :-)

Just for the record I wasn't seriously suggesting pleasure device shapes either way, that was horsing around...but the fork from there to various innocuous object shapes was more serious if you decide to expand down the road.

I'd like to see it in real world use without NFC, the rest of it is alright.

When are you looking to launch this?

Oh, just came across this and thought of you!

https://www.aromatools.com/v/vspfiles/photos/DT520-3.jpg

If you could work out something similar as a storage container for the wallets...even cooler!

Actually you can get small Peli cases like this, I already have one. It's small but it's too big for one device. Maybe for the kit of device in shipping it might be interesting, but it's not so cheap, but it's a good idea!

>>>>When are you looking to launch this?

Originally I had thought June, but now it's looking more like September to have everything put together properly.So start of the 3rd quarter. I might do a "Beta tester run" at reduced price to get feedback before then though, to see what the response it. But generally I'm looking at September. I will probably launch with a limited software support- a basic application that completes the basic features, as the device can be access and used by other NFC writing software. So Beta testers can see their own best way to use the device.

>>>>I'd like to see it in real world use without NFC, the rest of it is alright.

I suppose you don't HAVE to use the NFC chip, besides reading the initial hash of the internal decryption key that is stored on the NFC chip. I could for example perhaps send each device with the decryption hash written on a piece of paper (rather then stored already in NFC memory) under a hologram. Is that something you would be interested in? Using the device just as a protected password holder? 

You know, you might have just solved my packaging problem. I've been thinking about the best way to package the device, and this might just be it. :-)

For storing my Casascius coins, they go in one of these..... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lipo-Safe-Charging-Bag-Safety-Fireproof-Charging-Sack-/151300990888?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item233a3de7a8

Maybe you could hollow out some fire-proof foam to fit inside the bag.

Just a thought.

Why not both? Or give someone the option to choose? I would choose for both.

Anyway, you have a great project going on and I have been following it for a while. Always has been on my watchlist, because I was to lazy to reply. I can't wait till the test run. I might even buy one if I have the BTC for it. Keep up the great work dude!

New Prototypes are in! And they are starting to look even more beautiful. :-)

Discovered a few tensions issues with the glass though, so this won't be the final prototype as I originally hoped. On to version 6!

https://i.imgur.com/Qdq0UXy.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/ofcft1V.jpg

EDIT: Interesting thing we figured out: The KeyVaults *float* despite being made of metal and glass. Nice huh?

Totally gonna match my Vision spinner!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NHMfxwH2v7U/Ui4V2nwVT6I/AAAAAAAAFCA/laOqdf19mSg/s2048-no/vision-spinner-rainbow.jpg :P

Beautiful as hell!!!  ;D

I want one!

wow

I gave a short presentation of the device and showed around the 4th Generation prototype last night at a small Bitcoin Cocktail here in Milan, Italy. It went really well and had a chance to speak with a number of people doing some very interesting things in the Italian Bitcoin (and world) community. So, here's looking forward! :-)

its nice.. its sleek.. its pretty.. 

that said.  i printed out a paper wallet.. folded it several times and put in in an envelope.  i then sealed the envelope and signed across the flap.  i figure i'm just as secure with my coins as in this device.

That method doesn't use multi sig so no. It's not as safe as this device.

for multisig you need several devices stored at different locations.
i hope i can find a few envelopes

i will say it looks better in a safe than envelopes.

Those do look fantastic. Beautiful and functional, like a good woman.  ;D

I wonder, assuming someone else gets access to it.
Is the chip used to store the key temper resistant comparable with the hardware lever of security used for smart cards?

Think of it like this- I'm not advocating using only one method of cold storage. Indeed, I think people holding bitcoins today at $600 are crazy with only one Cold Storage method when perhaps in 10 years one bitcoin could be worth $100,000 or pie-in-the-sky Million. Who in their right mind would put 1 Million dollars in an envelop and sign across the flap? (You could steam that open WWII spy style no problem by the way).

But you're not crazy for doing it- it's smart, smart, smart. What I'm saying is that it's a little crazy to sleep well at night with ONLY your signature across the flap. I'm not sure how many bitcoins you have or what you think they will one day be worth, but security is about planning for as many possible scenarios as possible, and this product helps you to do that- with style. :-)

Here are more 5th version prototype images. The thing on the far right is the design for the internal capsule. Which I know is going to get a hell of a lot of 14 year old comments. :-) Like I said, it just happens to be the simplest secure shape. So, take that as you will. :-)

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/5th-Version_small_grande.jpg?286

Yes and no. The chip is a standard NFC chip so technically depending how you encode it you COULD enforce smart card level security, but it's not really necessary for most users. It's more important to use it with Multi-Sig so that if someone gets ahold of one, they still don't have your bitcoin. You could make possession of all of the devices more difficult to use, if that was really your goal, but I had created the device with the idea that once you have all the devices it's easy to get your bitcoin in safe reliable way. People are better at protecting physical goods then they are digital- hiding something someplace secure or putting it in a vault is a more reliable and intuitive way of protecting something than encrypting it in fancy ways. The casual user is more likely to mess up the encryption part, not the putting it in their safe part.

Darnm, this is cool. Give one of those ability to alert it's owner when it's broken and you have hell of a piece of hardware. Superman crystal resemblence cant be bad  ;D

Thats an interesting idea- although I'm not sure exactly how one could do that- radio signal? GPS? all of these things would can be blocked, and would be blocked by any serious thief. Although I suppose the device you put it in could be protected in some way.

I didint give it much tought really...only cool idea  :)

Put the aeternum in a floor safe, before you install the safe, install wires for power (one off main, one off an UPS) and Ethernet (one yours, one your neighbours or a 3G dongle) through the floor and through the back. That way it is not visible once it's all finished. Then put an RPi in the safe as well, have a switch on the door that opens / closes a circuit if the safe door opens. If that happens the RPi sends out an email / SMS to alert you or sounds an alarm or calls your friendly neighbourhood watch. Additionally have a script on the RPi that pushes a "dead man handle switch" every so often on a remote server. If it doesn't (your safe got nuked or power / internet failure etc.) you'll get an alert too.

Problem solved :-)

It looks like I will be at CoinSummit in London the 10+11th of July. So if anyone is around interested in talking about the device, I will be there!

:-)

I have to say that these are some pretty damn cool "Gold Pressed Latinum" looking tubes!!  Great job!

I had a chance to show the Aeternum KeyVault around today at La Maison du Bitcoin in Paris. What a cool space! Not only do I wish I lived in Paris because it's so beautiful, but because La Maison du Bitcoin is such a beautiful Coworking with cool energy!

Also check out the new case for the devices- a high impact resin case. I'm thinking about selling the devices direct in this case as well.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/masiondubitcoin_6_large.jpg?310
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/masiondubitcoin_2_large.jpg?310

I will be at CoinSummit tomorrow and Friday, so if you spot me walking around with the Black Case and would like to check out the KeyVault in person, by all means- please say hi!

And update: We've begun developing the system for 'fingerprinting' the unique identity of every device made, and are currently working with Storj.io to create a system where the fingerprints are stored in a distributed disk system on a blockchain, with the hash of the fingerprint attached to the manufacturer code on the inside. Very exciting! Take a look and see:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/fingerprint_grande.jpg?311

Good luck trying to counterfeit that- it's not only a scan of the physical internal structure, but the internal molecular structure as well. :-)

More images from the factory working on the latest prototype.

I'll be taking August off, but in September I think we are going to go ahead with a crowd-funding campaign to raise funds.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/IMG_2303_grande.JPG?314
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0505/3357/files/IMG_2295_grande.JPG?314

Look nice is perfect for daily use  ;)

I still love the design mate. They look so slick! Well done and keep up the good work ;)

I'm thrilled to see the new Apple Iphone 6 has NFC support! Looks like the Keyvault will potentially be available to both ios AND Android users!

I am not sure it would be a good idea to trust the iPhone with this kind of technology. The fact that their phones are sandboxed makes it essentially impossible to verify the exact code that is being installed on your phone.

looks really good!

Wow Rabbit! This is exciting. I'm definitely keeping up with this. I hope it's an enormous success. Can't wait to get mine!

reserved. ^^

it looks very nice :)

Sign me up!

bump!
can we buy them yet?