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Ezekiel chapters 36 through 39 have been the subject of thought and debate among many, and the source of some movie plots and books.

Here are some observations from one Joel Rosenburg from his blog.  I listed just the first three.  Bold faced, etc I added for emphasis; will include the link when I am done.
http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/what-is-the-war-of-gog-and-magog-part-three-the-good-news/

   1. The Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel lived in Babylon (Iraq) more than 2,500 years ago and the Lord gave him a vision of events that would take place in the future.
   
   2. Ezekiel 38:16 specifically tells us these events will take place in the “last days” — that is in the End Times before the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth.
   
   3. Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37 set the stage for the “War of Gog and Magog” by describing that Israel will be reborn as a country in the last days, the Jewish people will come back to the Holy Land from exile all over the world, the Jewish people will rebuild the ancient ruins and make the deserts bloom again. These things have all happened, and this suggests we are getting closer to the fulfillment of the next set of prophecies.

1. Ezekiel 38:2 tells us that the war will be led be someone known as “Gog.” This is not a personal name. We’re not looking for someone named David Gog. Or Ahmed Gog. Or Dmitri Gog. Rather, “Gog” is a title, like a “Pharoah” or a “Czar.” Through the prophecy, this Gog is described as a military leader, a political leader, and a coalition builder. In Ezekiel 38:10 he is described as developing an “evil plan,” we know this is an evil man, a tyrant.
   
   2. The Hebrew prophet gives us more clues. This “Gog” is going to be from the “land of Magog.” One has to do some historical detective work to determine what Magog is, but it is possible. Flavius Josephus, the first century Roman historian, wrote in his famous book, The Antiquities of the Jews, that the people of Magog are the people whom the Greeks called “Scythians.” This is a critical clue because we know from history that the Scythians were a people group that migrated from the Middle East northward and settled north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea in the region we know today as Russia and the former Soviet Republics.
   
   3.There are other interesting clues, as well. Ezekiel 38:15 says that Gog “will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north.” Ezekiel 39:2 says Gog will come “from the remotest parts of the north” and come “against the mountains of Israel.” The country that is farthest to the north in relation to Israel is Russia.
   
   4.Thus, we can determine that a Russian dictator will build a diplomatic and military coalition to surround and attack the State of Israel in the End Times.

The question then is what other countries will be part of the coalition?
   
    In Ezekiel 38:5, we learn that the first ally Russia will have is “Persia.” Until 1935, of course, Persia was the legal name of the country we know today as Iran. So we know that Russia and Iran will build an alliance in the last days to attack Israel.
   
    Ezekiel tells us that another country in the alliance will be what many English Bible translate as “Ethiopia.” The Hebrew word, however, is “Cush” and Cush is the upper Nile region that we now know as Sudan. While the current state of Ethiopia may also be involved in the war, the focus is really Sudan, which today, of course, is a radical Islamic Sunni state closely allied with Iran and Russia and deeply anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.

...it doesn't matter if this horseshit is prophesy or not...because they can make it self-fulfilling prophesy.  Scary shit.  The sooner religious zealots perish from the earth the better.

Yep, Christians are going out there and making those nations do all that stuff just to 'self' fulfill prophesy.   LOL.

I recognize that these verses can be difficult for some Palestinian Arabs and some Israeli Arabs to read, whether they are born again Christians or nominal Christians (raised in churches but without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ), and especially if they are Muslims. The Bible indicates that Jews will be a sinful people when they are brought back into the Land. Only after they return, the Bible teaches, will the Holy Spirit be poured out upon the Jewish people in an increasingly significant way (Ezekiel 39:29 and Joel 2:28-32 — or Joel chapter 3 in Hebrew Bibles). Then, a growing number of Jewish people will repent and return to a personal relationship with the Lord. Meanwhile, Jesus said in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that there would be “wars and rumors of wars” and “revolutions” and “lawlessness” in the last days. Certainly, the rebirth of Israel — while prophetic and God-ordained — has come with wars, rumors of war, revolutions, sins, and even crimes committed by some Arabs as well as some Jews. The Bible doesn’t teach this period of the last days will be easy, and the Bible is right.

That said, we would be not be honest to the Word of God if we were to ignore, deny or try to explain away the plain meaning of these verses. The Bible told us well in advance that Israel would be reborn and the Jews would come back to the Land, and this has come to pass. Genesis 12:1-3 tells us that the Lord will bless those who bless the children of Abraham, and He will curse those who curse the children of Abraham. Those who have cursed Israel have, sadly, found themselves facing great pain and suffering. Sometimes Bible truths are difficult to accept, but they are true nonetheless and we must accept them by faith.

Wow .. I really liked what you wrote

But while the Bible clearly explains that the Lord will bring the Jewish people back to the Land of Israel and allow them to reclaim their God-given ownership of the Land, nowhere in the Bible are Jews (or any group of people) given a license to commit injustice. To the contrary, the Bible teaches Israel to love her neighbors (Leviticus 19:18 and Matthew 19:19). The Bible also teaches Israel to love her neighbors and pray for those who persecute them (Matthew 5:44). The Jews do have rights to the ownership of the Land, but they also have responsibilities to govern justly and compassionately, in accordance with the Scriptures. In Leviticus 19:33-34, for example, the Lord says: “When a stranger [non-Jew] resides with you in your land,  you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to  you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.”

Now, back to the prophecy and its analysis: It could be reasonably argued that Israel is living more securely today than at any other time in its 63 years. The Israeli Defense Forces are widely considered the strongest and most effective ground fighting force in the Middle East. The Israeli Air Force is widely considered dominant in the skies. Israel has peace treaties with two major neighbors, Egypt and Jordan (though the future of the treaty with Egypt is increasingly in question). Yasser Arafat is gone. Saddam Hussein is gone. Osama bin Laden is gone. Palestinian suicide bombings are not a daily part of Israeli life since 2004. Rockets are occassionally fired from Gaza at Israeli civilians living in the south, but this is not nearly as bad as it was prior to Operation Cast Lead in January 2009. Moreover, Israel has just deployed a short-range rocket defense system called “Iron Dome” that is very effective. Meanwhile, Israel has submarines, ballistic missiles, and first rate intelligence services in her defense. Israel has also enjoyed decades of a close strategic partnership with the United States, has a strong and vibrant economy, and is widely believed to have defensive nuclear weapons, though the government maintains a policy of “strategic ambiguity” on the subject, neither confirming nor denying the existence of those weapons.

    Could Israel currently be secure enough to fulfill this prophetic prerequisite? Honestly, I am not sure. Perhaps events soon will lead Israelis to being and feeling even more secure. But there is no question that even with emerging new threats on the horizon, Israelis feel more secure today than ever before its their modern State’s existence.
    .
    Given the fact that the major End Times prophecies of Ezekiel 36 and 37 have essentially come true in our lifetime, does this mean that we will see Ezekiel 38 and 39 come true in our lifetime as well? To me, it is too soon to say so definitively. Certainly we are seeing geopolitical events unfold in recent decades and in recent years that are strikingly consistent with what the Bible describes as preparations essential for the “War of Gog and Magog.” So we should be ready. We should be prepared — not caught off guard — if events accelerate in the near future. But we must also remember that the Lord in His sovereignty could also decide to delay events for quite some time for His own purposes.
    .
    That said, it should be noted that when the Russian dictator finishes building his military coalition in Israel and begins to move his forces to surround Israel in the “last days,” Ezekiel gives us no indication that any country will come to Israel’s defense. There are not indications that the United Nations, or the European Union, or NATO will defend Israel. Nor is there any indication that the United States will defend Israel. Rather, Israel will be — and will feel — all alone in the world.

Next, I will describe what the Bible tells us will happen to the forces of Gog and Magog.

Carry on talking to no one but yourself rigon.   You're like the little girl having a tea party with her stuffed animals....except she knows that her playtime is full of fairy tales.

The Bible does not tell us exactly how this will happen, but it clearly describes a supernatural judgment. This is not a war started by the Israeli Defense Forces. These are not missiles from the Israeli Air Force. There no evidence in the text of Israelis defending themselves. Perhaps they are engaging in diplomacy. Perhaps they are hoping for the U.S. or the U.N. other nations to intervene. Whatever the case, the God of Israel steps in and defends Israel Himself, raining fire and brimstone down on the enemy forces and utterly destroying them.
As the forces of the Russian dictator (Gog) and his military coalition — including Iran, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Turkey and other key Islamic nations — converges against the State of Israel in the last days, the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel tells us that at the last moment when there seems to be know hope for Israeli Jews the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is going to supernaturally intervene.

As the forces of the Russian dictator (Gog) and his military coalition — including Iran, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Turkey and other key Islamic nations — converges against the State of Israel in the last days, the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel tells us that at the last moment when there seems to be know hope for Israeli Jews the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is going to supernaturally intervene.

That happened in 1973. Are you saying that Nixon was God?

Oops!

Really?  Russia, Turkey, etc attacked Israel?   Turkey was even on friendly terms with Israel at the time; that has only been changing recently.

I am not sure which objection paid less attention to what is being posted

And to finish (to the joy of some no doubt):

  1  While we know these events will all happen in the “last days” (38:16), we cannot determine whether the “War of Gog and Magog” will happen before the Rapture (when the Lord suddenly snatches born again believers in Jesus off of the earth, prior to the Tribulation) or not, because the text does not tell us one way or the other.
   
  2  That said, I believe it is very possible — not certain, but very possible – that these events will unfold within this generation, and possibly quite soon. We are certainly seeing geopolitical events unfolding in a way consistent with Ezekiel 38-39.
   
  3  Therefore, the most important question we must ask is this: Since the Lord in Ezekiel 38:7 told Gog, the enemy of Israel, to “get ready, be prepared,” then what should Israelis themselves and friends of Israel be doing?
   
  4  Shouldn’t we, too, get ready and be prepared — spiritually, emotionally, physically, financially, and in every other possible way?
   
  5  These prophecies are some of the most interesting and important descriptions of End Times events in all of the Bible. Unfortunately, too few people in the world are aware of them, or have read them, much less studied them carefully.
   
  6  May the Lord bless you and reveal Himself and His heart to you as you get yourself ready for the prophecies coming our way.

I'm not so sure all this pans out with the current countries we see. In the book of Daniel the vision he saw in the kings dream was made up of 4 powers reinstating themselves in our day. Babylon, persia, greece and Rome. The last one Rome which was made of iron, and feet of iron and clay, would be a world empire made up of secular and religious power which would be the beast and false prophet lead by the anti-christ given power from satan
This evil trinity so to speak makes war with the saints. Powers from the north i believe is symbolic to represent evil, such an example would be when the south of Israel was the last standing, as northern part drifted toward idolatry

There's others examples of this north and south representing good and evil that i can't remember right now, if i have time i'll look for it  

That is interesting - are you saying that conflicts with what Joel is suggesting above?

In the sense that he believes Israel becoming a nation plays a major role then yes in conflicts. The bible says when the fig tree is in leave, however they are not bearing fruits, or believing in Jesus. They are just a sign the time is near, because Jews have a homeland thats all, but they play no major role.

God's church is still scattered with believers all over, not the churches themselves so much because which denominations or sect leads? I think the larger churches, in particular the papacy, is where the false prophet may arise. This coupled with an alliance with other large denominations and political powers

Where does Daniel say that Israel does not play a major role as suggested by his fellow prophet Ezekiel?

I'm not an expert i just mix and compare what i read and understand. The term "Israel" has been defined in different ways not just as a nation, same as the word Jew. So just looking at this from the point that the nation of Israel will turn to Jesus as a national policy seems far fetched. They seem a combination of secular as well as old school. On the other hand Paul speaks about the Jews being grafted back into the tree or body, with the Gentiles and even warned the Gentiles the Jews could be favored again. I'm rarely dogmatic when i discuss scripture 

Ah, ok.  Yeah, you are right, one does have to look at the context when the word 'Israel' appears - true for anything, really, though alot of things will mean what they say when isolated.

But, context does add flavor - sometimes alot - to a passage (and not just scripture).

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

just wonder which passage, but it still could mean something other then a blood jew

Romans 2-25-29
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Some speak about a new Jerusalem

Romans is referring to a believer; Zachariah is referring to someone who has not accepted the Messiah.

In this case, Jews who have not (many have of course, even in Israel, but still quite the majority).

On top of it, since even Paul refers to physical Jews in his writings, and thus context helps, the Zach passage also refers to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the House of David. Zach is referring to the Jews themselves.

I'm not real familiar with Zechariah, but i take it you think Israel will turn to Christ as a nation? Some say a new temple will be built but thats from Old Testament

As a nation?  I do.  At least, Zachariah is talking about the Jews turning to Him who they have pierced and mourning over it.

The temple - I dont remember if it is mentioned in Revelation.  But, you see in the epistles the writers referring to the Old Testament - they accepted it as the Word of God, as did Jesus.  So (and I am not familiar with the passages), if it does refer to a rebuilt temple in the future, I would not discount it simply because it is in the OT

Of course you don't "remember". It was never a part of your religious brainwashing Sunday School class.

Piefoot is correct in mentioning  that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple. That's Jewish tradition.

 Is just making this up as he goes according to whatever Christian bullshit artists he happens to be listening to at the moment.

Zolace do understand that Rigon's version of Gog & MaGog carries as much intellectual weight does Winnie The Pooh getting his nose unstuck from  of a honey jar.

I guess i lean more toward a spiritual Israel, but i don't think i have much more to add right now. I never heard of Joel Rosenberg but have heard this idea. I don't think its wrong to study from people or denominations who have been down the roads one is currently driving on, just don't listen to one only, and stay objective seeking your own answers
I'll probably visit this forum more often 

That's the thing about obscure, unspecific, nonsensical "prophesy", you can make it say anything you'd like.

That is not unusual (spiritual Israel), both in prophecy and application.  I think (I am not sure though) that it also somehow applies to how some Christians view the US (how they approach the Old Testament).


As far as Joel Rosenberg, he has written some interesting and popular fiction - fiction that seems even some political leaders have taken an interest in (it being fiction based on biblical prophesy).  But, it is only recently that I am reading a non fiction book by him, a quite interesting one, on today's Moslems, and the struggles going on between three main groups.

That is what is so interesting about several of his points - many of the prophecies he points to are far from obscure, etc.  Which is why several political leaders have found them of interest, given today's current events.

Considering the same thing has been happening ever since anyone ever heard the words "Gog and MAGog" even when it was thought the Scythians (oddly enough who were Iranian!) Then the Romans; Attila the Hun; etc...etc.....  none of those came true either.

The current confrontation with Iran does not seem to fit in with the scenario described by Ezekiel (though it may be one of the steps along the way).

And, on a related note, Rosenburg wrote a fctional book called the 12th Iman - some of the overlapping themes with the news lately is interesting.

some ideas you might want to look at as far as this thing about Israel being the center of attention in the last days. The basic idea i'm putting forth is national Israel was only one aspect of the spiritual Israel, and parallels Christ and His church as the New Testament (and in some cases the Old too) point to that as the new Israel. I'll post those parallels and give a link i found that explains further. Also if you ever did word searches such as 'fig tree' which is identified with national Israel these verses are then interesting

Matthew 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Any time it looks like Israel is going to war, everyone screams "Gog & Magog!!!"

And what's so stupid is that's it usually the idiot Christians who scream the loudest, especially since they think they know more about Hebrew scripture and prophecy than the Jews do.
Pretty silly that ingorant people reading the English translation of the greek translation of the Aramaic translation of a Hebrew scripture think they know more about the Hebrew scriptures than the Hebrews themselves do.

Talk about the epitome of hubris and arrogance!!? But, that's what Sunday School will do to you. You get the quality education you pay for.

Notice the fig tree is withered by Christ and He says no fruit will grow on it forever, yet in the other verse its said it will be in leaf again, and then summer is near (meaning the last days)....1948 Israel becomes a nation

anyway on to those parallels of national Israel and Christ

In the Old Testament, a young man named Joseph had dreams and went into Egypt to preserve his family alive (Genesis 45:5). In the New Testament we find another Joseph, who likewise had dreams and then went to Egypt to preserve his family (Matthew 2:13).
When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.
When Israel left Egypt, the people went through the Red Sea. The apostle Paul says they were "baptized unto Moses ... in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2. Jesus was also baptized "to fulfill all righteousness," and immediately afterward God proclaimed Him, "my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:15-17).
After the Israelites went through the Red Sea, they spent 40 years in the wilderness. Immediately after His baptism, Jesus was "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days (Matthew 4:1, 2).
At the end of their 40-year wilderness wandering, Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, He resisted Satan's temptations by quoting three Scriptures-all from Deuteronomy!
In Psalm 80:8, God calls Israel a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt." Yet Jesus later declared, "I am the true vine." John 15:1. In the Old Testament, the name "Israel" first applied to one man, to Jacob. It represented Jacob's spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the beginning of the New Testament we discover that Jesus Christ is the new Israel who came "out of Egypt." He is the one victorious Man who overcame all sin!
http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/topics/israel-in-prophecy.aspx

Ancient prophesy ?That is just a lame excuse for continued hatred and prejudice.
I don't see the Jews declaring a holy war. No one really give a flying fuck about ancient prophesy. There are people with stone-age intellect with their fingers on nuclear weapons.

Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Niether do I, and i agree people will use their interpretations of prophesy to not only gain political power, but guide foreign policy. Israel isn't powerful enough on their own to do that, nor do i think they want to  .

I would disagree with you, about God having no more plans for the actual nation of Israel - he has some unfinished prophecies otherwise.  Including what Jesus says in Acts about restoring the kingdom of Israel, and Paul in Romans.

That does not negate God have a dual purpose to some of the passages.

But, either way, yes, one would want to exercise great care in foreign policy in seeking to bring about any such.  Nor do I think anyone generally has.

OK, in Israel you have the Orthodox Jews who do nothing except study the Talmud and breed.  They don't work and live on money devoted to them by the state, ie taxes paid by non-Orthodox  members of society.  Nor do they figure in the armed forces.

Ok I think I need to revise that.   The nation of Israel coming into being - Truman recognizing it may have been influenced by prophecy, I dont know.  It was influenced, from what I understand, from the Bible, but also from what the Jews went through in Europe, etc.

And I was commenting on US foreign policy - Iranian foreign policy may very well be influenced by Shia eschatalogy.

I don't think the invasion of Iraq, or support of Libya, or giving bunker bombs to Israel recently (whatever the merits of those actions), were due to giving heed to any prophetic understanding.

What is happening is because they breed like dogs with litters of more than a dozen per family, they are out-breeding the secular and other non-Orthodox citizens. There is pressure on the secular to emigrate which will further increase the Orthodox as a percentage of the population.  Remember, they won't don the army uniform and defend their state so the onus remains with a steadily decreasing number of non-orthodox Jews. There will come a time when there won't be enough taxpayers to fund the Orthodox lifestyle.  Will American taxpayers take up the task?

  Israel won't last long as a state as envisioned by Zionists under these circumstances.

That is pretty interesting, and probably has alot of merit.  Why wont the orthodox not fight in the army?

Romans speaks of Israel being "grafted" back into the olive tree or body, putting back what was natural to begin with, but included back into the new, not the old. I take it to mean a natural Jew, someone familiar with the old laws.

Not sure what you mean by prophecies still needing to be fulfilled by the nation of Israel, i see no clear language for that. I don't see a turning to Christ as a nation, or the boarders we call Israel....unlikely don't you think? with all the hardcore tradition and secular nature of the nation

Christians are people who are christ like.  No man going about and killing others is truly a christian, stop letting their facade deceive you.

Religion is originally about love.  It has been severely basterdized over the years.  Those that practice fear and hatred in the name of peace and god are no more than satanic beings weather they are concious of it or not.

It is clear, in Romans 11 for example, that he is talking about Israel the nation - as it was (when he wrote) rejecting Jesus.

It is not Christians here below that are experiencing the hardening.  Israel here below is not symbolic.

25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;
26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

In Daniel 9, Daniel hears in response to his prayers concering the captivity of the Jews and their restoration the folowing below.  Only 69 weeks of years has passed.  The rest below has already been fulfilled.  Jesus, the annointed one, is cut off after 62 weeks of years (which came after 7 weeks of years in the previous verse).

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.

I can't use Daniel as firm evidence. No where in the new Testament is there clear evidence that points to the 'nation of Israel' in our day, yet plenty of clear evidence that Israel is defined as His people. See i look more closely at what the Bible points to in clear language as better evidence

The verse I gave from Romans clearly shows that Israel is not referring to Christians.  Are you disagreeing with that?  Or are you meaning something else there?

I am not disagreeing that Israel can refer to other than the nation elsewhere, depending on context.

when the state of Israel started Ben Gurian et al made it law that orthodox could study the Talmud and not be required to work or serve in the army.  So they don't and they breed so prolifically that they are beginning to register as a majority.  

When the youth qualify to vote their party (parties) will be most influential.

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

Well, then as you point out, things will have to change for them to survive.

In fact, given the scripture posted somewhere on this thread (would have to go look), the attack on Israel that is being referred to comes when Israel is not expecting it, and certainly beyond anything they can do about it.

One of several reasons why this current crisis is not the crisis referred to in this passage.

There is next to no evidence that the Jews were ever in servitude in Egypt.  And absolutely none that Moses existed at all, let alone he picked up the ten commandments.

i would disagree as far as what i think "Israel" refers to. I don't have time now to expand maybe later tonite. I don't disagree the nation may be part of something just as any nation could, but see a danger in dogmatic beliefs on what that is .

If you mean as a nation with land boundaries, etc, at the time of Exodus, sure, no disagreement there.

But, Israel was a nation of people, were the descendants of Abraham that, through Moses and Joshua, went to the land promised to Abraham over 400 years ago, and thus began a nation with boundaries (no king at the time).

On a related note for others that may read this, since the question comes up regarding how they treated the people of the land during Joshua's time, God had told Abraham over 400 years earlier that the time of reckoning for their sins was coming.  They were pretty depraved by the time Joshua led Israel there.

the question is not whether the Bible is the Word of God, but what it is teaching.To your point, there is no evidence contrary to what the Bible records as history.

Yes Israel was a people chosen of God first and foremost who was given land, called a nation. See where the word nation is used again and for who; His people, not just Jews but Gentiles

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

His people His church a Holy nation without boarders, 2nd peter is addressed to Gentiles in this context

There is no disagreement there about the calling out of Gentiles there, but, that is not saying either that God is done with Israel as a nation in the future.  Does not say he is thus suspending the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

After the things talked about in Matt 24 verses 1-31, also read peter 3;10

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So, you believe the church will be going through the tribulation?

Anyway, either way, once gone, there is no longer the concern about two holy nations at the same time, yes?

The nation comes together, and in time, becomes spiritually alive again (culminating in Zech 14).

Its seems to be what Jesus is saying in Matt 24, along with other supporting verses. I think in Revelation a seal is put on Gods people before all the trouble starts, and they are protected

There isn't any evidence that there is one holy land, let alone two.

 Mesopotamia is a much better land to live in than the Levant, so is the Nile Valley, yet we are expected to believe that god gave Abraham the "promised" land.

 Both areas were leading centres of civilisation while the patch between the Jordan and the sea was often a battleground between the two superior empires.

 Egypt keeps getting bad-mouthed in the bible because the Persians influenced the records of the Talmud.

I never thought there were 2 holy city's, i pointed out there can only be one. I would make a speculative guess that Zech 14 is just a larger picture of Rev 21 in post 96, where the new city comes down to earth. I won't discount your belief about today's nation of Israel somehow playing the main role in all this. I just think there isn't enough hard evidence, just speculation. I tend to lean more toward a spiritual Israel, which is attacked by spiritual counter forces, not what we currently see with the middle east troubles. It could be a mirror reflection however to some degree

Well, the promises that God has fulfilled from the OT were physically, not spiritual, regarding the nation of Israel (and the advent of the Messiah, etc), so I am not sure why it would be any different going forward.

We will have a physical fulfillment of Jesus' return, judgement, etc.

I know you mentioned you rather not involve the OT, but, that is the primary source, and it is what Revelation builds on.

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel  .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy?  Most of them don't even buy into it.  They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

Actually looking over the thread it looks like the second time i mentioned politics......oh well

Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding.  I thought you were thinking my thread here had a political motive.  Which I don't think is an issue as far as the Free Speech board, but, was not my intent.

I have been asked on it in the political forum, what with the several threads on Israel (including mine) and the potential for war.  I have not advocated for war against Iran (though I think folks underestimate Iran's danger) since I don't know really what the overall outcome would be.    But, I have said my thoughts there that my support of Israel is not due to some belief in an apocolyptic end.  In fact, in the past, due to what the Bible teaches, I have stated that we probably need them more than we need us, and that God will take care of them, as you mention above.

Which will involve repentance on their part - which is sorely needed.

But, here in the religious forum, I thought it be good to have such a thread for future reference, as mentioned due to when it happens, it will be a clear testimony to the Creator (and folks will still find reason to not see that - Bible has many examples of that).

But also as a reference in case the subject does come up elsewhere in the forum.

Because there were no "fulfilled prophesies" from the OT.   The OT was written AFTER ....
The OT is like "prophesying" the attack on Pearl Harbor on June 10th.....
Plus the OT is fulled with stories that never happened ( Exodus, etc...) .

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there.  Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it.  Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq.  But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

I don't see how we need them more than they need us.


Just to get a better idea, in brief do you think Israel as a nation becomes Christian? What about a new temple? and the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy place, is that the temple to be built or something else?

I don't mean that as it is usually meant.  As in some sort of trade agreement or military alliance.  Rather, I am referring to the below passage from Genesis 12.

I think the US has been blessed in supporting the Jews, both here in the US, and in supporting them having a nation.  Which is not to mean supporting them in whatever they do, of course.  But, we do not persecute them.  They have had freedom here that was many times missing in Europe at various times.  We have been, overall, during our history, a haven.

But God will take care of Israel with or without us.


 

1 Now Jehovah said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee:
2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and be thou a blessing;
3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind.  The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout.  There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns.  So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes.  The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture.  So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

but according to dispensationalism thinking (which i take it describes you) the nation of Israel itself will become a Christian nation, and it can be something we witness. Its something that finds its way into politics because some may think they have the calling to make this come about. Therefore politicians regardless if they really believe it or not will say they do for the voting block. I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread, and whether my interpretation as opposed to yours (or what you read) is correct,or not, it could matter. It could matter because if the dispensationalists are wrong they are influencing foreign policy, and in a way that takes away the objectiveness needed when forming a foreign policy. That alone could suggest its not Biblical because it advances the idea that Israel doesn't stand alone, assuming these believers feel they have a role in helping them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Nah, this is interesting, and actually related.  You bring up a legitamate concern.  The dispensational approach has its merits, and the churches I have attended have taken that approach to one degree or the other.  And yes, they so see Israel becoming a nation as part of that.

Nor would I say there is a problem with acting with a view towards prophecy - as long as the end does not justify the means.  I think what Daniel did is valid.  He sees that the number of years of exile for his people are soon to be over, and he starts praying about it.  No indication that he goes talk to the king about it.

But, Nehemiah actually gets help from the king (a latter one) in help restoring Israel.  There were objections by others regarding this, interestingly.  But both men were working with the known will of God - and, Nehemiah did not gloss over Israel's sins just because of prophecy.

(Glad I saved this part - certain set of key strokes and I lose what I am typing).

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated.  But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible.  That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed.  And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution.  If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism.  In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know.    You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Ok, i figured you were into that because it matches what you been saying, and there is different types of it. I also don't see how any Christian can be anti-semitic since its basically a Jewish text they follow

You would think - but unfortunately.....(we still have our sinful nature seeking to do its thing even after faith in Christ).

Of course, not everyone belong to denomination is really a Christian.  A particular problem (I think) with having a national church.  So, that might be part of where that came from.

During Jesus' first coming, one of the things he rebuked was how the leaders (and thus many folk) ignored the prophecies that spoke of that time.

So, we are not expected to be ignorant of future events that are foretold.  But, there is that flip side, where too many times folks have gotten ready for his 2nd return, and/or the rapture, only to find they were looking at just one piece of the puzzle (or get discouraged and fall away).

Because your ignorant and arrogant. You believes the Jews can't read their own scriptures, and only brainwashed Christians can understand them.
After all, Christians are the one who believe virgins can give birth to man/gods based upon their mistranslation of Hebrew scripture.

I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible.  But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God.  So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it.  I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

I don't see Rev 4 telling us anything about when the rapture is, but we do see it is when Christ returns and everything is pretty much burned up and laid to waste. Don't see anyone hanging around after that for anymore tribulation. It bold relates to the last part of your post

2 Peter 3;10;11;12;13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

To use an illustration overall -a fork may prove better than most tools for handling one's food, but, it aint gonna work for soup.

Anyway, a thought - what is the 'Word of God is the Bible, not the systems imposed on it, is my point.  Ultimately, it is best to be able to talk to the Author about it, and test it where applicable also (with future prophecy, that is harder).

Fortunately, most is rather plainly understood regardless of what approach one takes -  as far as what we need to do to be saved, and what pleases the Lord in our daily walk.

My thought for the day, LOL!

No, I agree, which is my point.

It is one thing finding a pattern in the Bible that leads to developing an explanation (convenant theology, dispensational theology, whatever),  it is another to then make that the Standard (not the Bible) to the point of reading into Scripture that theology.

Here is the verse in Rev4 that I have read that some (not all) dispensationalists say reference the rapture:

1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Usual words of wisdom on the subject, LOL.


As noted, the current Iranian crisis is not what is thought to be referenced by the passage here in question.  It may an event that eventually leads up to it.

But, it is interesting that, in the book of Esther, permission was given by the Persian king to annihilate the Jews.  In his defense, he had no idea what people he had signed the death warrant for (such was the arrogance commonly found in such high office), but was done at the behest of Haman whom the Persian king had advanced, and who was extremely anti semitic.

An aside to the biblical predictions regarding the future attack on Israel - but related, and given current events, worth considering.

Not familiar myself, and I hope to review the passages, but for now, it was noted in piece by Joel Rosenberg that Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 foretell the utter destruction and annihilation of the city of Damascus in the End Times.

Both sides are killed in 99% of cases only innocent people, so  I do not support this war  , and all those "leader" responsible should be punished strictest possible! Because we are all brothers and sisters!

http://hrexach.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/calm.gif

Isaiah 17 does refer to Damascus - I don't know the context overall, don't know if Damascus has been a ruinous heap in the past.

Jeremiah 49 notes Babylon, so not sure what the writer had in mind today.

I did see an article heading about some concern that this Syrian conflict could trigger a world war - it could, but I don't think it will.  Ugly situation, and kind of a damn if you do and damn if you do not type of situation, it seems.

One thing noted about the end times referred to in the Bible is the lack of reference to the US.  The common thinking is, on this, is that it is because the US is no longer the major player during this time, that it has been.

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

Thanks.  That is a bit long, so I will try and look after work tomorrow.As an aside (you probably know) - there are also seventh day Baptists.   Usually do not hear much about them.

I refer to them a lot, but not sure about their obsession about the Saturday Sabbath since the NT doesn't mention it much  .

It seems a bit forced, though, it does note the downward spirituality and morality of the US, which we have been seeing.  We as a nation have turned from God.

On the Baptists - I am not referring to them overall, but sub group of Baptists that are 7th day folk.  Focusing on Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of worship (as do most Baptists).  Not sure how big a group they are.

They back what they say with scripture, According to what they tell the US will be the power that supports the anti-Christ, but unknowingly, and it will have no more effect on what directions individuals take personally anywhere, in this or any other country. The US simply supports the first beast which comes from the papacy, and Europe, in an alliance between Church and state 

They use scripture - not sure the scripture they use back what they say.  Not comparing scripture with scripture in general (as seen on the main forum) can lead to some interesting conclusions - with prophecy, it seems this can happen even more so.


I know, for example, there are those who argue that the events of Revelation have already happened.   I even read a short fictional serious by one of its proponents (similiar to the Left Behind type of thing, except from their view that it happened inthe 1st century).  Enjoyed it, very interesting, and included some interesting historical data.  And they also bring up scripture to support it.

So, got one set of folk (Left Behind, etc) having scripture and the other (1st Century type of folk) with their scriptural quotes.  And, the quotes by themselves - in both cases can make sense.

Yeah, well it's all about what makes most more sense to the believer, but this source doesn't force it's beliefs, it simply states them. They'd be the last to want to impose govt in any way to apply their beliefs in any way, from what I see.

The ones who think revelation has already been fulfilled has a name, just can't think of it, but it's an old belief, around the time of Luther I think

Thought since you brought up the subject of the US in prophecy it might interest you .

Oh, it does, and as I said, I need to again review it.  Nor can I say that they are wrong.  Just that, my first impression is that it seemed a bit stretched.  Thanks again.

And, unlike other sections of the Bible, prophecy seems like it can be harder in general to decipher.  The illustration that comes to mind is giving someone directions.   Many times, several of the steps in the directions do not make sense till you get to that point.

Another interesting thought - if the rapture is to happen prior to the most of Revelation (as many think), then some countries will be affected by the population loss and chaos than others.
The US military has a large number of Christians, I have heard - if so, it would be crippling, though not necessarily a death blow.They do not believe in that kind of rapture (obviously) or as you say it wouldn't fit .

They?  Meaning the 7th day Adventists?  Actually, I don't know what they think in that area - I know if someone is post tribulation rapture that would not be a factor either.  As a young Christian I tried focusing on all that, but, too much, I think, at least for the wrong reasons.  So, I have just accepted that Paul refers to such an event, but, I don't know for sure when.

 On that note, regarding whether passages in Revelation refer to the US - I have also heard some say this refers to the US (because of the mention of eagles).  I think it is reading into it, but, given the interesting question  of the future of the US on this type of thing......

From Rev12:

14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

As past prophecies (from the Bible) have come true, so will those yet future.

One is this upcoming war involving Israel, Iran, and Russia (or whatever nation is in the uttermost north of Israel - currently and for sometime Russia), and other nations noted.

Now, this Crimean crisis actually can open the door to this - one thing Russia assumes is that Europe is dependent on its gas.  But, Israel may be able to start exporting gas to Europe - and this may alleviate the leverage Russia has.

Till then - how the US handles the current crisis may flag the end of our leadership in the West - to be replaced by a European organization that realizes the US cannot be counted on as in the past.