Bitcoin Forum

Let us first talk about the elephant in the room. Who am I? And why the newbie account?

Answer – There are many egos at work in BCT. These egos make fact based discussion difficult. The current topic in hand has two divided sides – XMR people (rpitelia et al) and the SuperNet supporting NXT people. I belong to neither of the camp and don’t want my post history to derail this conversation. I don’t want people to jump up and down and claim FUD.

Disclaimer – These are just facts followed by conjecture (you are free to have your own too). Not an investment advice. Read through; if you don’t understand ask and someone might be able to help you with the research.
In the end, do whatever you want with your bitcoin, it is yours and you should decide.

How it started:

I am a small time investor in the crypto world. One day while scanning the market for buys, I hit upon BBR. The coin was climbing up on a very-very thin market. In the trollbox, one person mentioned jl777 a supposedly known name in the NXT coin space. Then someone mentioned about SuperNet ANN thread on BCT and I hurried over.

Like many people, most of the things did not make sense to me. Zerosum game and what not, lots and lots of words were being thrown around. I started reading up on the thread when I came to this post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8696612#msg8696612

This guy, another newbie account, asked a very pertinent question. Now he was either unwilling or lazy, as jl777 said, to do some research. Finally either he gave up or was bought by jl777 as he ended up praising a guy whom he called a Ponzi scammer earlier.

Now, surprisingly, the same guy who quit came up with this gem later:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8781375#msg8781375

jl777 brushed aside his apprehensions by saying, and I quote, “I am not counting all the small things and just assuming the value for all the assets contained are encapsulated by the market price”.

“I like to underpromise and overdelivery. I find people are much happier with that approach than the reverse.”

A guy, who actually has been shouting over the hill about his 4 x gains in a fund (sharkfund0), wants to under promise. That was strange. So I set out to dig out things which trythisnow wouldn’t/couldn’t and the results are surprising:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rj9jc467wsazfe3/jl777.xls?dl=0

Explanation on the sheet,

It lists out each asset + sharkfund0 + jl777hodl and then breaks the holding into pieces, listing out all the assets. As jl777 has been a rather active asset issuer and collaborator, I just did not have enough time to go through all.

I am not part of the NXT community or have good navigation skills on the NXT AE. So there are bound to be mistakes and explanations. I request you guys to correct/add things and quote it in the thread. I will add them later.

So what is the final achievement of this research? Strangely or rather not so, jl777 holds quite a lot of his own assets, direct ownership or otherwise.

Biggest example is of sharkfund0, his feather in the cap. A closer look at the issue tells us that a total of 1379.4994 were issued. Remaining assets are still held by the issuing account. Out of which,

Jl777b - NXT-SQ9J-JCAN-8XVY-5XN7K – holds 521.9 - 37.83%
NXTVenture - NXT-XRK4-5HYK-5965-9FH4Z – holds 348 – 25%

A total 60% of the asset was held by jl777 directly or via proxy. You have to wonder which “investor” got the benefit of the 400% jump in prices.

Similarly, another called jl777hodl,

NXtcoinsco or tradebots - NXT-YNZ6-HE8K-TPF6-AV45K – holds 1850000 – 18.5%
NXTVenture - NXT-XRK4-5HYK-5965-9FH4Z – holds 1455131 – 14.5%
NXTsharks or sharkfund0 - NXT-ZWW7-PSXW-89TR-AA67Z – holds 1214205 – 12.14%
InstantDex - NXT-74VC-NKPE-RYCA-5LMPT – 800000 – 8% (a fact which jl777 glossed over when pointed out by trythisnow)

So a total 53% of the asset was held by jl777 directly or via proxy.

If one digs through there are several other cases too,

HRNXTpool – 44% held by InstantDex and jl777hodl
NXTGrid – 96% of the currently issued asset by jl777hodl – The idea is to sell 2.5 million at market. Only 517k sold out of which 500k held by one account
MIC – 40% of the issuance held by jl777hodl
NXTcoinsco (Tradebots) –   30% held by jl777b + 24.125 held by Supernet (ie held around 54% of the asset earlier)

Now imagine an exchange where you can trade with a flat fee, there are no percentage based charges. And then think you own 30-40% of a coin. How difficult do you think it will be to pump that coin by circular trading? Not much?

That is the problem with NXT AE, the 1 NXT charge on any transaction, means it is easy for someone to pump an asset or build a market easily. Especially when we tend to look for most traded market.

Putting all together, this is my conjecture of things. Depending on the grouping described above, you might or might not believe in it. If you are a jl777 supporter, stop now.

Profit sharing proposed by SuperNet ICO says some of the assets will be transferred over to the system, “free of charge”, while raking in 50% of the fees. Problem is jl777, by proxy asset or direct access, already holds majority of the assets, so this doesn’t really make sense. This rather seems a ploy to garner enough interest in the assets, which for now is majority held by jl777, to actually for him to slowly dump them out.

The secondary proposal put in days ago had the asset “donation” percentage increased. This asked for:
a. Fixed remuneration in case coin makes to top 5/10 in coinmarketcap - Again considering jl777 already holds the majority of assets directly or by proxy, this for me sounds like a plan to get a fixed return for assets which can’t be dumped or sold in an open market. 24% of any of those assets being dumped will surely cause a panic. A better way will be to pump the price (NXT and asset both) and then present it as a compelling case. 1500 BTC “worth” of asset being “donated” for 500 BTC return.

b. The asset given out free of charge – This follows the formula I think is happening above. Generate enough interest in the majority holding of jl777 to actually help him clear out his inventory.

For jl777 supporters, if you are reading till now, you were warned.

I am sure jl777 has a long, confusing explanation about cross section, horizontal, vertical assets and marketswaps (on the assets he owns, thats not even funny). I don't believe him and won't give 10k BTC to him. Do or would you?

In other words, he will invest ICO money in the assets that he already owns and use investors money to pump his own assets and dump on buyers.

Thanks for info. Now it makes sence for me.

Was already trying to figure out where the catch was. Couldn't lay my finger on it. Thanks.

The thing that kept me away from it was that it wasn't just coins, but also other assets. Just didn't seem right to me. There isn't any kind of open market for this assets. It is impossible to value them without more info than we can ascertain.

Have you ever heard of a term called "apples to oranges" comparison? I already explained my motivations, first thing in the post. Given the lack of refuting you can do on these facts, thats the best you can come up with, isnt?

Yep, I am a clone account with "6" activity, and NOW give me 10k BTC!! Oh wait! I did not ask for money. So yeah the great jl777 vs "6 activity account" is a fair comparison.

Now this is all conjecture, not facts (I know jl777 supporters jump up and down on facts) but it might as well be that he "owns" the majority of SuperNet money ie invest himself. So which money will he run away with?

I love the way you chastise vuduchyld about trolling. Refute a fact in the thread, then open your mouth. Till then you are a jl777 troll yourself for making a jl777 is not a "6 activity clone account" comment. Till then sell your NXT while you can.

You should know very well that there have been tons and tons of Hero Member Scammers, its just that you have a biased opinion since you Bought into the Supernet IPO and jl777's other Shit Scam Assets.

The informatiom the OP presented is all verifiable...(Not trolling)

It is true that jl777 controls over 50% of the funds of the assets that He created, so when the price goes up, he makes a ton of money. Same with "Supernet"(Which is a shit ass fucking concept btw)

jl777=possible scammer

Actually it is nothing at all like saying anything about Satoshi. The big difference is that markets exist for BTC. One can easily determine market value and one can easily move in and out of those markets.

I am not saying anything negative about jlhodl at all.  As for that token, or UNITY which the token becomes, it seems to represent assets that are not cryptocurrencies that are traded on open markets. I can't assign value to the non-cryptocurrency assets, so I chose not to invest. I think he refers to them as "other revenue-producing assets" or something like that. But I don't know how much revenue and I couldn't find enough info about those assets.  It is not a personal indictment against you or the dev...although its not really a coin with a dev, so it is more accurate to call him a curator.

jl777 seems to be a really smart theif. Stealing from his investor of all assets he hold.
I am glad I am on the "good" side. The only thing rpietila is pumping is Monero, nothing else from what I can tell by any of his post. He is not advocating any other altcoin, while this jl777 have 50 different pumps going on probably where he hold everything. It's like he built 50 castles of promises, while rpietila have 1 castle promoting financial privacy.

How easy it is to make money once you have a reputation. jl777 is going to take over the world (atleast he thinks) by having people buy all his crap assets. Compare BTCD, is it even working? Is the tech good? Are many people actively working on it? By my study, by going to check out the IRC channels I see nothing happening in #bitcoindark, around 21 people here, while there is 100+ in #monero-dev including core bitcoin developers.

The reason why Bitcoin Core developers is in #monero-dev and not #bitcoindark or #darkcoin? You should be able to read between my lines, but I will tell you right here, it is probably because the anonymity tech provided is really good.

We work for free. The donations we receive cover hosting costs, testing equipment, and we pass a TON of donations on to contributors who commit code. Every member of the core team, at this juncture, works "for free". I'm aware that the core team is in a unique position, as we are independently financially ok / successful / whatever, and I know that many do not have such a privileged position (especially round these parts). Nonetheless, the Monero core team do not draw a salary, neither do we own a large portion of Monero. I'm certain that this will change in future as we receive more donations geared towards specific efforts, but that is the status quo right now and it has been that way for several months already.

I love the smell of Troll in the morning.

I don't give a shit if he is uber super duper jumper etc member. There are reasons for not going on NXT forums. You know why?Because it is a pool waste of trolls and shills who will die over NXT. It is a known fact that jl777 has lobbied for accounts being banned. So much for discussion?

So either you refute the facts, or go troll some where else.

Dude have the balls to stand up and identify yourself with your real nick if you set out to ruin another man's. Don't hide behind that pathetic logic you gave in your first post. Man up.

I have been thinking the same as OP since the dawn of Supernet but don't have the skills to state as clearly as he did.
The real goal of crypto in general should be mass adoption by the general public. Tbh these anonymous shitcoins are all a fu**ing waste, whether it be BTCD, XMR, DRk, whatever,.. These are only worth to people because they can make money out of them by PnDs.
Current state of the crypto industry is just like the early online poker industry. People used to take advantage during the early days and made millions. But there were also people who lost millions. Now you don't see that in the online poker industry because people have become smart and usually take a single step after measuring five steps ahead of them. In four to five years only genuine cryptos will survive and really bear fruits and all this anonymous craps will be long gone.

Look at Bitcoin, Guldencoin, Saffroncoin, Cannabiscoin and probably some others like NEM which are going to be released etc. Do you know what I see in them? I see real world use and adoption.

Just ask yourself why we need Supernet? If the Supernet core goes down, then all the coins and services related to it will go down. Altcoins in general will cripple and thereby affecting Bitcoin too. Why cant alts exist separately? If all of them merge into Supernet then we'll not see any new ideas or development. For example can you merge all the fiat under one network? Can you bring USD, GBP, Euro, Yen, Dinar, CNY, INR, under one hood? NO!!! Because each of them has their pros & cons. If USD takes a hit we don't see CNY or INR taking a hit. In fact in the current recession where the western currencies took huge blows CNY, INR have shown 4-5% growth. This whole idea of Supernet is hugely flawed. I will reiterate this "If Supernet goes down what will happen to the partner coins" ??? And history has shown us again and again that nothing is invincible in this tiny speck of a world.

In short Supernet is a huge fundraising by jl777 for jl777  himself. He has thought of a very long and time consuming con. He is not your usual small kind of crook. He's in for the biggest scam in crypto history. He's letting you invest in his own assets and coins which we owns hugely. And when the right time comes he will get rid of them. This is the reason I chose not to invest in this.
Again this is just my advise. Take this as a pinch of salt. After all it's your Bitcoins. Peace. :)

I might as well cross post this here. It has to be pretty clear to anyone reading this thread what's going on here. Short on facts big on rambling on and large text. Seems like a real intelligent group of people this thread as attracted. ::)



You've done nothing but make ad hominem attacks and unsubstantiated claims while linking to your post and spreadsheet. Here's a short list of the claims you've made with no evidence what so ever:


Not true as shown above in an eariler post.


Evidence? And as far as I know any coins held by superNET are to be held indefinitely. Certainly any sale of assets in the form of coins will go to a vote.


Again, evidence?


Now you're accusing him of falsifying volume and inflating the price of his assets. Evidence?


...


So now the voting on BTER where people have openly purchased ~3k BTC of TOKEN is rigged?


What are you talking about here? He's the one saying he owns the assets and he's often mentioned how much the total asset value of his shares of his assets are. Why don't you think it's a good thing for someone who's producing something that drives the price of an asset(technology, trading, providing a service, whatever) to own a large part of that asset? Isn't economic incentive a good thing?

All you've done is attacked James by accusing him of doing the things above but the only evidence you've presented thus far is your spreadsheet that outlines which parts of jl777 assets are owned by other jl777 assets.

Anyone who's read the superNET thread knows that James holds large portions of his assets and the all of his assets are cross owned in a multitude of ways. It says so right in the superNET OP. Where did he claim otherwise? And why is that necessarily a bad thing? He's the one developing the technologies or choosing what coins to invest capital in those assets, so owning the assets that he's attempting to increase the value of makes sense from an incentive standpoint.

Regarding the typos in the PDF, that document wasn't written by James. If you're trying to claim some intentional deception on the part of James you're going to have to try harder.

The latin word adequatio is both a word and a concept. As a word, it refers to the idea of adaquacy or being adequate. As an epistemological  concept it conveys the crucial realization that we can only see the things we are equipped to see.  Humans cannot see ultraviolet light, while some animals see it perfectly well.

So many of these trolling posts suffer from exactly this problem. The posters are either unable or unwilling to research what the supernet actually is. And thus they literally cannot see it. Which does not stop them in the least from pontificating about it. If this was the 16th century and there was firewood handy i imagine things would be interesting indeed.

This was a pretty reasonable post up until the point where you started calling superNET a con and James a crook with no evidence.

A couple of things though, if superNET goes down, none of the coins involved will go down. Each coin is still its own independent blockchain.

And any smart coin community will focus on adoption. I believe that's the most important thing. SuperNET shouldn't hinder adoption in anyway, just provide access to services and technologies that are available.

for everyone asking for my real BCT. Here's something to chew upon: Do facts need a face to be true? If yes, then you are truly someone I tip my hat to.


Now I am getting tired with your BS arguments. first you are a concerned "objective" observer now you are "SuperNet" defender. First of all, read the thread again you moron, it says things being said are conjecture based on facts. Thats how I interpret them, you are free to do one interpret them as you will. Still I get a moron like you who goes from calling someone a liar, then yourself as a do gooder "objective" observer to calling someone a liar again. Make up your damn mind. Whereas, you could have stated "I disagree and this my interpretation of events" and done with it, instead of calling liar (note, see how I did not respond to someone who said "I did not understand SuperNet" on the other thread...because that is fine by me. Everyone has their opinion and I don't need to go name calling because he disagrees with me.) The second post did try to reason with you but you came around again accusing me of lying. Hell, I have repeatedly said its your money, do what you want. I am not recommending another coin or stopping people from buying. See how the thread says "read before.....", not that "Supernet is a scam". These are facts and my conjecture, had I any mal intent the thread would have been "self moderated" ever thought of that? You are welcome to present facts or conjecture as you wish (and did towards the end of the post where you made own conjecture about people knowing of jl777's holding. Thats your belief and I can't be a moron like you and ask proof of that cause we both know that cant be proven).

In the end,  you even outdid everyone with your moronic postings. So how do you expect me to get "evidence" of pumps you dumb idiot. I don't have access to his accounts -- again conjecture....if it was facts it would have been filed in facts section. So if you want to deny facts or present your understanding as you did in the last para, its fine by me.  

Now this is getting tiring. Read the damn fucking post again -
Disclaimer – These are just facts followed by conjecture (you are free to have your own too). Not an investment advice. Read through; if you don’t understand ask and someone might be able to help you with the research.
In the end, do whatever you want with your bitcoin, it is yours and you should decide.

If anyone is as moron or challenged you are and can't look up the word "conjecture" then I can't help it. If I wanted to spread FUD, I could have put this on self moderated and let Monero folks have a field day. Think about that before you open you dumb mouth about FUD.

Didn't smooth have 20k XMR in April?
weren't you along with other core members buying in qtys of 2k, 5k etc back in the OTC days?. Doesn't seem like such a tiny portion. You can't prove or disprove for sure the current holding.
Not that it matters.. why should core team not be incentivized to drive the value up with a benefit to them, it's not criminal?

So what are you implying? You can see the UV radiation that jl777 is emitting or are you some kind of animal that just happens to invest in crypto?

Can you elaborate why you believe all of the above statements to be true in plain english without resorting to childish name calling?

If wanting to know the truth makes me a "do gooder" then so be it.

I said you weren't telling the truth in the post where you claimed that "he has asked for 500 BTC for "2000 BTC worth" of his own assets." when you know that isn't what is happening. Do you feel that your post that I called out as not truthful was a honest post that attempted to portray the situation accurately?

I think the thread has proven one thing. While jl777's dealings and association are questionable at best. SuperNet supporters are a bunch of morons. My initial post, says:

"Disclaimer – These are just facts followed by conjecture (you are free to have your own too). Not an investment advice. Read through; if you don’t understand ask and someone might be able to help you with the research.
In the end, do whatever you want with your bitcoin, it is yours and you should decide."

Conjecture - "an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conjecture

ie the OP, me, understand I don't have all the cards or information. Claims about pumps are at best claims. Instead I get people calling me liar, having mal intent, FUDer, credibility of "6 activity".  This to me shows they are either morons with zero comprehension or people who turn into blind army when they read something negative about their "favourite" coin.

If it was not for the shady dealings, I think people should be weary of being lumped with such morons. Next thing you know they will overwhelming vote 100% release to jl777 if he decides so.


(Edit: Another conjecture from the thought flow process. Ripple also had these so called gateways. doesn't it? Gold, and some btc gateways too ie 1 (ripple) *n (number of coins/assets) gateway. So basically jl777 is using a trick he learned with ripple, applied to NXT with NXT gateway (another 1*n gateway) and now Supernet which will be an m*n gateway (m and n representing number of coins). He is totally not a "one trick" pony).

I only had them because mining was fairly easy the first 1-2 weeks, and I sold a lot since that was my intent at the time. (I have mined and sold many new coins.) Once the difficulty shot up (I guess when dga got involved), I stopped mining, and I don't think I have ever bought any XMR, but it is possible

Given the lack of instamining, the rapid rise in difficulty, and the relatively rapid (though somewhat slower) rise in price, it wasn't possible for anyone to accumulate a large amount of the coin without buying them. And while most of the core team are comfortable enough to work for free (though only part time), we're not that well off.


No but large insider holdings are a necessary ingredient of a pump-and-dump scam. Since we don't hold a lot we can't be a pump-and-dump scam.

And no, I don't think a few thousand or even 10K are really a "large" portion. 1% of the coins is now over 30K. I certainly don't own anywhere near that and I doubt the rest of the team does either.

Honestly don't believe that nobody in the core team owns any sort of significant amount.

0.3% is not that much no, but bear in mind we have seen claims XMR can/will surpass bitcoin, will reach a market cap of 35 + billion USD, is the only contender for global dark liquidity etc, This is coming from senior established members, not just newbie pupers.  Unless the core team is not quite as optimistic as those particular XMR proponents and disagrees with some of those particularly vocal supporters. (hopefully) 0.3% will be plenty.

But I understand the importance of trying to make it appear that none of the early members managed to buy in a large amount early, or that they somehow 'control' fair percentage of the total supply between them.

Things like core team members going for lunch at one of the biggest whales home really do not do favors for perception so it makes sense to try and cultivate the image of equal footing and not some kind of monero cabal ala bitcoin foundation carefully going forward.

Personally I would think the opposite. It makes total sense for you to be investing in something you believe and are helping to shape.  I much prefer knowing the core team has put their money where their mouth is. Doesn't necessarily mean because they hold big stacks a pump n dump is in order.  

 To know that nobody out of the team believes strongly enough in the project they are so fervently advocating to invest any significant amount in seems quite strange.

Define signficant. If you mean thousands, yes we own thousands. If you mean hundreds of thousands (~10%+), we certainly don't. If you mean tens of thousands (~1%), I would guess it is probably within that range, but where exactly I have no idea.


We'll have to agree to disagree. In this space where 99% of coins are obvious pump-and-dump scams, avoiding such scams is more important to smart investors than people investing enormous amounts in something you believe in.

There are other motivations available that can't be gamed by scammers. In particular we are all working on the project because we find it interesting and has long term potential to turn into something important and valuable (which likely would, or at least could, enrich us personally, but not particularly through direct holdings of large portions of the oustanding coins).


You are assuming we have both the net worth and the investment philosophy that would make investing more than we have a prudent step (or that we don''t care about such prudence). This is false.


You have not heard that from the core team, at least not other than fancifully. In fact you've probably heard that it could very well fail and be worthless more often from us.

What others believe or say or do with their money we have no control over.

In reply to anotheranonlol, specifically (and smooth/fluffypony) - IMO there is nothing wrong with someone holding a percentage of what is their brainchild. IF I do a start up, even the VCs understand this. If I am not vested, I don't think I can give it all to an idea. Its rather how jl777 will hold 10% of SuperNet (a very huge amount in itself - we balk at 1% pre-mine), get public money for funding and performance linked bonus on top of it.

Of course people own portions of startups, even very large portions. This happens in a context where there are safeguards against abuses. Shares can't be sold to unsuspecting investors, and indeed usually insiders can't sell shares at all, except under very limited conditions.

Coins are not startups, and crypto lacks the safeguards that make investing in ventures with concentrated insider ownership (sometimes) viable in the conventional business world.

I don't really understand supernet, but it seems more like a startup to me than most coins. Still the safeguards that exist outside of the crypto world are not present. I take no position on supernet specifically though.

If he is a thief then i am fully supporting a thief. If he is a scammer then im happy earning from the idea of a scammer. By the way  have you earned from btc? Do you think you are not a thief or a scammerr that you bought something low and sell it in much higher price? Do you think its fair? So all of us are just scammer Nyahaha This is not a fud post. Just  bored and wanna post :)

I don't think theres anything wrong with that


Up to around 130k is what I had assumed. Certainly could be more or less.  It can't be proven or disproven really so it's irrelevant. Just odd to hear the announcement that in fact they barely own any XMR.


I like the altruistic statements, but feel they are somewhat naive/unbeilable. However not surprised or unexpected for them to be said if you wish to perpetuate the idea XMR is as far removed from your traditional clone coin pump/dump as anything that has ever come before it (not that I personally have an issue with any of the core members holding large amounts as mentioned earlier or imagine that owning 'large' amounts between them automatically dooms the project to be seen as a pump n dump - not at all ).

 I find it strange to imagine that a random observer such as myself, who tends to overwhelmingly post negative sentiments towards XMR would have invested a larger amount than those such as yourself who spends a significant amount of time in XMR related threads contributing positively to the ecosystem (amongst other contributions). I'm fairly confident it's not simply a case that I have more to spend. Agree to disagree is something we will have to do.


I know that 20k XMR which you said you owned before the coin hit the exchanges, adds up to 75+ BTC at todays prices, already above what many could afford to throw at at an alt.

If you believe the words of many XMR supporters, it's only a matter of time before that 75 is turned into 7500 or even 75000 BTC.

I can't see why any of the core devs would not have decent net worth to invest into this project to maximize their gains, assuming they believed there was an opportunity to do so nor do I see that as a problem. I can't see how anyone could invest more than they have either.


I'm certainly glad nobody from the core team has said such a thing.

As I said it I don't really know but it is likely more than thousands less than hundreds of thousands. Perhaps there is a question of termonology. When we say "don't own a lot" that is generally by comparison to premine/instamine coins where there developers generally own much more than a tiny single digit percentage. If you think something very roughly in the range of 1% is "a lot" then we own a lot!


If I remember correctly I sold a lot of it in the range of 0.0001 to 0.0005, which made it worth around 2-10 BTC. Given the relatively little effort I put into mining it, that was a reasonable return for me. I mined more and made more from mining BCN, in case that matters.

I think fluffypony indicated that we are likely more well off as a group (though certainly not all of us) than many on this board (also likely far less well off than others), and that is indeed why we can afford to work on the coin at all. So yes our positions that I call small will certainly appear large to some.


I don't particularly pay much attention to investment advice from random people on forum sites, trollboxes, etc. whether or not they happen to be XMR supporters or detractors.

All received OK. Thanks for answers.

This is the usual propaganda from the Monero Truthers...
Unlike James Hoodle, these guys are really, really fucking good liars.

They are all loaded down bagholders of MRO/XMR since the early days...
McRisto claims he bought in at 0.002, which seems like total bullshit...
Just like the catastrophic silver crash of 1847...
But think about the logistics of McRisto accumulating a large position at 0.002 in April-May?

As for James Hoodle and his NXT House of Cards...
It's ridiculously easy to manipulate the volume and prices of NXT assets...
If someone like Jimbo tells you, "I don't care about money"... run for the hills.

If by "all" you mean all of the members of the core team, and if by "loaded down" you mean individually holding more than a tiny (well under 1%) fraction of the coins then you are 100% wrong. You also have zero evidence for your statement, which says a lot about the credibility of things you are willing to spout off about.

If you mean a certain subset of loud investors who talk a lot about their holdings on the forum, it might be true. I really have idea, I don't follow what they say very carefully and I don't know if what they say is true.

Supernet is NOT a coin.  It is not even a basket of (only) coins.

Ok missed this one. I have already posted the facts from my side and my belief stems from that.  Facts about how he holds most of his own assets, and how his claim of 4x returns for "investors" in sharkfund0, considering there weren't many investors (he holds nearly 60% of the issue) are enough.

If you feel that no it doesn't then thats your prerogative  ....

and this has been clarified over time again and again. You still ask me "can you elaborate" making me repeat it again makes you a moron - call it childish name calling if you will.

I dint call you a "do gooder" rather I called you a moron and a SuperNEt supporter who is trying to act like a "do gooder". It just goes to show that your comprehension skills need work.

Now with the last para, I have to ask this. Do you not understand english or follow logic in your land where you belong?

English-wise, that is called an omission, though it happened unintentionally, it is just an omission. Not a lie.

Logic-wise, anyone who is going to read "asking 500 BTC for 2000 BTC worth of asset" is going to get curious and check jl777's post. There he/she will come to know about the "performance" string attached? Or do you think people in BCT are such idiots that they will take statements of a "newbie account" as the gospel truth? If you think that, then yes you are a moron (forgive me again for the childish name calling ;) )


Edit: And then there is this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=780833.0
Let me count the number of projects under "jl777 banner" (banner cause no one should call me a liar for omitting that he has a "team" :P) or how many pies he has his finers in:
Working/worked on

Privatebet (part of NXTPrivacy)
cryptocard (part of NXTPrivacy)
SuperNet
InstantDex
Tradebot
BTCD Teleport
subatomic?
MGW -- only thing which is currently live

Managing/giving advice:
sharkfund0
Atomic
jl77hodl
NxtVenture

Yep nothing can go wrong.

I don't know much about sharkfund0 but if I remember correctly I think it was mentioned that it held 10% of BTCD and 10% of BBR. And considering BTCD has gone from nothing to top 10 market cap crypto and BBR recently went up over 10x it doesnt' sound too unrealistic that sharkfund0 did in fact go up 400%. I wish I was one of the people who had a part of that 40% of sharkfund0 to be honest.

I didn't call you a liar, I said you were not being truthful with your statement. If you're saying that you omitted that because you misunderstood what James was offering then that's fine.

And I do think think that people will take the statements of a newbie account at face value without investigating the truth behind them. This thread is a perfect example of people doing just that. People will do that when it's what they've wanted believe all along anyway, and as soon as they see someone else writing the things they want to believe they form an opinion based on that. If everyone on here took the time to investigate what was true and what was false we probably wouldn't have thousands of altcoins and scams going on every week. But people just believe whatever makes them feel better about themselves.

SuperNET sounds too good to be true when you first hear about it. And it's possible that it is too good to be true and it never works out the way it's supposed to. Nothing is guaranteed. If James hadn't created the MGW and written 40,000 lines of code(his words) since spring I wouldn't be interested in the idea. But this seems to be an interesting case where you have someone with both the ideas and the apparent technical skill to make them happen. Lots of people have ideas, but it's rare when you have someone who can actually build things as well.

Anyone who wants to invest in superNET should do their own research. It's more akin to a start up company as someone had mentioned earlier. Its intention is to generate revenue and profit. What ever incentives people feel are best suited to them getting the largest return on their investment are what they should vote for with their TOKENs or UNITY shares.

Ok, let me stop calling you names and answer this.

Lets talk point by point. BBR and BTCD were simply "pumped" because they were participating in a "super duper secret" project. I cant tell but are you being serious about "being part of the 40%"? I rather wish I held more BBR and BTCD - they wud have given me 10x returns than 400? See why I say you are biased? You would rather wish for a route to suck up to jl777 than take the most profitable route.

Secondly, "not telling the truth" = lying. God whats with your english? And read again, I said the omission was unintentional, not the fact that I did not understand jl777's grand plan. I think this is the easiest defense of a SuperNet support - you don't understand jl777's vision, well so be it.

Now I have to give props to you. So you reach a conclusion that "everyone in jl777's thread" has understood that he has fingers in all the pockets and owns most of his own assets. But you don't believe people can do their own research? See again why I say you are a biased observer? Everyone who supports jl777 is a maths genius who knows all his dealings + understand "his vision" but rest of bitcointalk people are fools.

This thread you say? Lets count for and against people (other than me):
Against SuperNetico:
50cent_rapper
Mrrr
vuduchyld
Come-In-Behind
Skinnkavaj
nakasat
Zer0Sum

For SuperNetICO:
Stealthcoin
Hotmetal
torshammer
noashh
Este Nuno
positivehigh
Zer0Sum

ie 7-7. Number of posts? Well you do the maths there. So, I see where you are going with this...making me use the childish insults again....cant control it...you moron, get off you high horse. You are no causal observer with no leanings. You are free to state your opinion on the matter but stop trying to make yourself look foolish.

Again, last two paras are your opinion, specially with a weak reasoning - his words. eh? So I guess jl777 is Jesus for you. But I am not going to ask "show me the proof" thats your belief and let it be.

How many is the total supply of the token?

Supernet is a kind of fund. It comprises of coins which is illiquid and activities are difficult to value. jl777 owns a lot of them, which cannot be sold to market easily. By having this Supernet, jl777 can pump the NXT and sell some of NXT at hypered value. As Supernet is a kind of investment, there might not be any dividend from it in the future. If you own 1 BBR and do not convert it to Token, you will have 1 BBR at the end of the day. If you convert that 1 BBR into Token, it might not worth 1BBR later.

The price of BTCD, NXT and BBR is higher at the moment is that if you pay for Token with those coins, you get 5% discount. So people are buying those coins, which increase the price of them. If superNET goes down, or ICO finishes, then the price of those coins will come down.

how's that possible to manipulate the vol and price?If it was easy than why don't other devs manipulate the vol and price of their coin?

... and hes anonymous....

I wonder what ripple gateways do? Hmm, let me check....oh they do exactly the same thing just that their curency is xrp and here.......oh well, I am surely misunderstanding jl777's grand plans.

For anyone who is wondering jl777 first appeared wanting to create a ripple gateway for NXT and since only project he has actually released has been MGW - multi gate way - which functions as............oh yes, a gateway to move NXT and BTC. His first announced project? InstantDex , an exchange to instantly exchange BTC to NXT and vice versa......which, oh again is like gateway. Supernet is? a gateway for any currency to any currency using the tokens ...which is? again like ripple. Yep lets burn money where you could have got stellar for free.

Sure I wish I owned both BTCD and BBR, but that doesn't make the gains in sharkfund0 an less true. Obviously the whole point of investing in something like sharkfund0 is to delegate the investing decisions and distribute risk. I wish I could just pick whatever stock goes up in the Dow Jones rather than just investing in the index too.

I don't own any jl777 related coins or assets so I'm not biased from any financial perspective. I try to look at the situation objectively. I like the idea behind superNET though as I think I've made clear. I think if it works out it's potentially a game changer for alternative currencies.

If you feel that someone saying "at least attempt to tell the truth" is equivalent to directly calling someone a liar then that's fine. My intention when writing that wasn't to brand you as some sort of serial liar, but it thought it was very suspicious that you had been researching all of this superNET stuff and happened to miss that part. But I thought we established that you didn't mean to intentionally mislead, so there's not much point in discussing it further.


I said that the ownership percentages are listed in the OP. I'm sure lots of people still don't understand the extent of cross ownership between all of his assets.

Of course I beleive people can do their own research. You said this:


So the fact that 7 people in this thread did in fact "take statements of a "newbie account" as the gospel truth" seems to support what I said. Some people will believe what they want to believe and it doesn't take much for them to form an opinion. It's obviously easier to just say "oh fuck that superNET shit, it's just a scam" then to actually spend the time reading and researching what it actually is.

I said they were "his words" because I remember him saying just that in the thread. I didn't go to github to go count the lines myself. I'm not a programmer and to be honest I don't really care if there are 40k lines or not. I know enough that lines of code aren't any specific measure of work, but it tells me he's at least coding. Which is to me the reason I have any interest at all in superNET. Since he's not just talking about doing it, he's actually attempting to build it.

I certainly don't think he's "jesus", or anything other than just someone who seems to have a lot of motivation to get things done. He could stand to be more organized and more clear with his ideas. Also, I think he would benefit from slowing down a little bit and focusing on less things at once. But apparently that's not how he works. He's the one doing shit and I'm not, so I'm not one to argue.

Also I think you underestimate what he's trying to build. You keep comparing it to ripple or the MGW. I wrote this recently in another thread as an example of what you should be able to do from the superNET GUI that will be launched from any wallet that's a part of superNET:

-Ability to send BBR transactions with other currencies(which of course use CN's ring signatures and BBR's unlinkable outputs upgrade)
-Buy and sell assets with whatever currency you're using on the NXT decentralised asset exchange instantly with James' InstantDEX and MGW tech.
-Buy and sell crypto and fiat through the coinomat service. Which is apparently offering some sort of anonymous debit card which sounds pretty interesting(but I don't know much about it).
-It will be a platform where service providers will be able to integrate their service to be used directly from the superNET GUI. For example BTER exchange is planning on implementing their service to be fully usable from the superNET GUI.
-Integrating Bitmark's 'marking' reputation+trust system which integrates Martti Malmi's(sirius on here) Identifi. This will be helpful for using the asset exchange and to help rate any service provider on the network(or any object really).
-Decentralised peer to peer anonymous betting system via James' Privatebet tech.

The basic point of SuperNet/UNITY is really a technical one, and that seems to be getting lost in the number crunching.
When this works, it won't matter how the assets are structured, SuperNET will create a linked system of crypto-currencies (NXT, BBR, BTCD+ others) and services (such as Coinomat, or BTER) that will be able to offer pretty much every imaginable function of crypto currency from within one unified interface.

It makes a lot more sense to integrate the coins with the best implementations of a particular feature into a network, than for one currency to re-invent the wheel for every feature. As Este Uno says above, SuperNET will offer the best of the current crypto scene, in one package.
This could, very possibly, be the 'killer app' for crypto, bringing crypto into the mainstream.

I'm not saying that I have total, 100% blind faith in this project, but I have a lot of faith in jl777 and the community that is forming around SuperNET, I think they have the ability to make this happen, and if it works, its going to be massive.

Even if it fails, it'll still break new ground for crypto in general, so it's definitely worth a try.

Too much controversy to invest.

For me, this is too easily a realistic theory:

A respected and intellectual guy decides one day that he can make enough money to essentially last him a life time. Although the project is revolutionary, they still stand to make so much money that they wouldn't have to work a day in their life ever again. Personally, how can anyone not see this as the primary source of motivation? Not only that, but once they have the money there is absolutely no reason why they can't just sell of the BTC and never ever return to the cryptocurrency community. Sure there would be rage from a lot of people, but would justice ever be done? No. So how the fuck can people think it's legit to invest a size-able amount of money into this.

If someone well known for their intelligence came along tomorrow and was also well respected and they offered a similar such service, however for cheaper. They'd just do the exact same, collect the BTC and run. That's what a smart person would do, not a honest one, but a smart one.


Although the above theory cannot be proved, neither can the latter. Do you really want to give a guy 10k BTC for a project like this? IMO, I'd work 20 years solid if I was promised that amount of money in the end. Do you really think in less than a year, whatever work, is deserved on that much money? Moral fags clearly have no place on the internet. Shame for me!

this

Because it's such a diverse topic and quite large, it's hard for me to convey how much I actually do understand about this whole SuperNET project. Monero for me is something I really don't care about, or ever have for that matter, so I won't bother going into that. I have seen the vast team behind it (SuperNET), it all sounds  very convincing indeed. But even with all of that to back it up, don't underestimate the greed of people. No-one for sure knows what jl777 will do with that BTC once he has it. My bet says he'll never return, but that's just my opinion, of course I wish good luck to anyone that does choose to invest within it, I just do NOT value the project (which it could potentially be worth one day if everything is legit, but at start-up, get real!) at 3 million GBP (Yes I'm English, so whatever that is in USD). :)

He's never going to have access to all of the BTC. It's all going to be held in multiple escrows.

And he's been holding a massive amount of NXT for a while now and he hasn't run yet. And this amount of money is currently more then he's ever likely to hold again during the course of the project. So if his plan was to scam a large sum of money he's either going to do in with in the next few days or he's not going to at all. I think it's pretty clear that he's not going to do it at this point. The window of opportunity for him to scam is closing rapidly.

Ethereum already spent some of the BTC they got from IPO
And as for supernet, funds are available as buyers got what they paid for

Complete bullshit, the scammer jl777 has over 27000000 NXT (that's 2100 BTC or 1 MILLION US DOLLARS) from selling those TOKEN assets in his NXT account to that only he, I repeat, ONLY HE HIMSELF has access.

http://www.nxtreporting.com/?ac=NXT-MRBN-8DFH-PFMK-A4DBM

He has this amount and can run away at anytime. He said his aim is 10000 BTC so don't expect him to run away before that date. Mark my words, once 10k BTC is full jl777 is going to be vanished. You guys will all cry like little babies then mourning for your losses that will never come back because the smart one took it. People never learn. If you don't believe then you'll have to feel, it was your brainless decision after all.

This reply was rude and unnecessary. I didn't slate the guy, I simply said that is this kind of system really worth that much money? Unless you are jl777 then you don't really know what his true intentions are so anything commented on is speculative. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even be commenting on these forums if I didn't know what Escrow is. However there are too many ways for getting around Escrow now, with certain clauses allowing the collection if minimal effort is met, etc. Bittrex is a prime example of a Escrow service (fair enough not the most reputable one currently) that fails on their Escrow terms and will just hand over BTC because they get some also. At the end of the day, like I said, it's too high risk for me. Maybe not for you and your masses of intelligence...

Which you clearly display here:


Only just realised also your name is 'Stealcoin'. Made me laugh, have a nice day!

Oh and keep talking, We still don't understood you.



EDIT: Just like to add, your still saying at the end that people have more in their 'brains' than to just steal bitcoins. It doesn't make sense by the way, but I understand what you are trying to say. You're still not considering the idea that smarter people simply know how to make money in smarter ways. Just because someone does something cool doesn't mean that they don't want to earn a shit ton of money for it. Don't be so damn naive.

It's a very good and well presented post. Thank you for this! Would like James to address it.

I am carefully invested in SuperNET and I wish I could invest more but I have indeed concerns too. James makes it hard to get a clear picture of what he is really up to.

I know one thing thought and this is that if the SuperNET comes to live than this will most certainly become a Gamer Changer for Crypto and I don't want to miss that oportunity to have my share of it. I see it as a high risk but high future reward investment. I really like his idea of a SuperNET.

In a twisted way your post supports an investment into SuperNET or more exactly his various assets at this point of time to me:

If we assume he is after money (people with a lot of money often want a lot more so not to fully exclude) and is pumping his assets then he will also pump the assets I am invested in (I made sure not to invest all in Unity alone). It's a pump and dump scenario then and we are at the early stage imo which means a lot of profit for one that can play this game.

However I really hope he is genius and honest and the SuperNet will be a success. It would help crypto a lot. You know we still have to make crypto mainstream and a crypto backbone net is a big ticket to it.

That he will make a lot of money doing this is to expect. That's not something negative to me as long as he will deliver.

I'm not sure there is much to address to be honest. He's always been upfront about the nature of his assets. I don't think he's hiding anything. He owns large shares of his own assets and all of his assets are cross owned.

I was passing by and happened to see the thread, it was of interest as I had recently read the SuperNET one also. I clearly state in all my posts that I am not hating on jl777 or calling him a scammer but that it's still high risk and there is always the possibility of that in the future however unlikely. How is a business supposed to attract investors when upon questioning anything you are shouted down your neck at by it's loyalist of supporters? I call you "rude", due to the way you tend to insult me in every post rather than contribute something worthwhile to talk about.


I haven't created a single 'FUD' thread in my entire time here, nor have I contributed to it. Check my post history if you like, I simply took interest in this after reading the SuperNET thread.


I've never taken part in a 'pump and dump' and nor do I ever plan to either, I'm not the smartest guy ever and have very little money of my own to even 'invest' into the cryptomarket. Now who's making assumptions without any facts?


I'm not stating anywhere it's a pump and dump, I'm not sure if it is the language barrier because you're English obviously isn't perfect, but you're really not understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm not really sure why I'm even replying to you as your reply is likely going to be ridiculous.

So the guy made 4000 posts on this forum in one year, but did not bothered to reply on this post?

There's nothing really to reply to, if you have any questions he seems to be answering them in the official superNET thread.

Where is the official Supernet thread?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.0

I'd rather have him coding than posting, tbh.

So you two agree all is as it is written here and you like it how it is?

Have you read the thread?

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

For people who weren't aware of how James structures his assets it's always good to do your own research before investing in anything. So if this thread caused some people to dive in more and attempt to better understand what they were considering investing in, then I guess it might have done some good.

Any specific points you feel need to be addressed? There's not much we can say about things like OP speculating that James manipulates the price of his assets by self trading them. There seem to be a fair amount of wealthy individuals buying them on their own in the NXT community so I would say that in general the evidence goes against that. But if someone can come up with some evidence that jl777 is in fact doing that then it would be worth looking in to. But it doesn't really seem like something he would do, or that is even necessary considering how people in the NXT community seem to value his assets currently.

Ok lets see if we can do this without the name calling.

First of all, gains in sharkfund0?
I don't think you fully grasp the situation. Here's the figure - 10k was issued. Total bought? 10k - 8617.8186 = 1382 were only sold ie 14% of the issue sold (a grand total of 3 asset sold since I posted the op). Out of the sold portion, 38% is held by jl777 himself (forget the what was held by NXTVenture - another 25%). If thats not a failure of an issues I don't know what is. I think it will make a much merrier picture if we can find the post and pre 400% gain announcement.
so fret not, you can still buy the asset though at the inflated price.

Secondly, you want a proof of the pump. I would rather ask you what proof, other than jl777's reputation, of not being any? None. Proof of one being in place? At least 2, one the majority shares being held by him and him alone, and secondly failure that is called NXT AE allowing large transactions to pass through at very low fees - 1 NXT.

Why not ask this question to jl777 and he can hire someone who could go through his account? I guess his stature is too tall and many will piss in their pants before they get this bold.

Again there you go with your broken comprehension. There weren't 7 people who took newbie account's words as the truth, rather made averse statement about Supernet ie the thread was a fairly balanced one. If you really want to count people who were convinced they are none. There were those who had perceived notions about it being iffy and then found some value in numbers I put out. Or do you think they all read and said "holy shit! 500 BTC for 2k BTC assets" and took off? I see you are promoting the fact

people who support jl777 had all the equations down to the number of how much jl777 held

vs

every other person who was against jl777 as a sorry person who looks at newbie account at gets convinced? Until you hold this notion, I have to call you a moron and ask you to get off your high horse.

There are people who are much smarter than you on bitcointalk and will not invest in supernet, even if it is not because of what I said.

Do you know the beauty of github? It tracks each line being changed, so if I change the date in a header file, it will show it as a line changed. Before you jump the gun, I am not commenting about jl777, rather how weak your "objective" look of things is. If past posts are an indication, I am sure you will change your tune now and say you and the complete jl777 junta understands this too.

How will SuperNet leverage BBR's ring signature or BITMARK feature? Just out of thin air? No, the coin you hold, say BTCD needs to converted to BBR or BITMARK to be able to use that feature. Supernet will charge a fees on that transaction. So basically building a BTCD to BBR and BTCD to BITMARK and BBR to BITMARK (by triangulation) market which is good, no doubt but...

it is similar to what ripple does which is...provide a way for people to leverage usage of different assets by allowing them to input USD to buy ripple and then convert it to metals (some gateway) , BTC etc. So in a way, the market is built for USD to XRP to GOLD or BTC and triangulation markets.

While I take no issues with you doing your own conjecture of the facts, you keep making statements which do nothing but make you foolish. OP wasn't aware? Really? And how do you know this?
Lets check the supernet OP, shall we? Media coverage, tweets, prediction market, after market.....ah yes NextVenture and the core (not cross) assets:
Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where.

This I agree to.

Fair amount of wealthy individuals is it? So why is the 400% return sharkfund0 still with 14% of the fund sold till date? Or rather why the majority of the shareholding is done by the jl777 or his own assets? Its like motorola holding majority of google's share if they were so hot and then claiming oh! google shares are so hot!!
Something he would do? So while you think low of my conjecture (which maybe fair), your "proof" is - it doesn't seem like something he would do? Yep totally an "objective" fact based observer.

There's NOTHING wrong with negative or positive opinions as long as they carry substance.  I appreciated the "Monero is a Scam" thread just because it helped condense and wrap my mind around the baggage / issues that came with it.  If I was seriously considering the SuperNet ICO I would appreciate this thread and the OP's post.

What people don't seem to get is that facts actually matter.  Watching them being debated by both the OP and SuperNet supporters help people make educated decisions rather than buying hype/flavor of the month.  It also helps stabilize the price upfront.  When people know exactly what they're getting - finding out stuff later that they already know won't send them into a panic.   Also seeing accusations that aren't true come up again and again won't send them into a panic.

You are talking to the wrong person. Mr. Stealthcoin here has done nothing but shout FUD, FUD, FUD all over the thread. He has yet to debate any of the facts, other than lashing out on anyone who even remotely tries to agree with me. You might also get a fair share once he comes around.
Cryptos nowadays is more about intolerance into the coin you have bought into.

Edited.

Maybe I missing something but I don't really see how the amount of shares issued in an asset like sharkfund0 really matters. The assets are listed to raise capital that gets invested back in other currencies/assets that the fund manager decides are acceptable for the fund. At least that's the way I think it operates, I'm not an expert on jl777 assets at all. But from my reading and learning about superNET and his assets I have never gotten the impression that he's attempting to deceive or hide information from people regarding them. That's where me and you differ I think, you seem to think that he's intentionally attempting to deceive potential investors about the nature of his assets.


I don't think we're really disagreeing here. I've been saying that people who want to believe that superNET is a scam will read what you wrote and use it to further cement their opinion that it is such. Like you say, they already have perceived notions about it.

And yes, I'm sure thousands of people if not tens of thousands of people on here who are smarter than me who won't invest in superNET.


This is where I don't think you're understanding me. Before when I qualified the lines of code statement with "(his words)" you perceived that I meant that as some sort of praise towards him and thought that was some sort of statement of deference to him(your "jesus" comment before). I meant it to mean that I haven't independently checked that fact out at all so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I know how github works and I know how meaningless lines of code are as a metric which is why I was trying to convey the fact that he could simply be saying that as something that's 'technically true' but doesn't necessarily mean much.

With regards to Bitmark marking will be integrated in to superNET, but each marking adoption does all the marking transactions locally and then hashes them in to a merkle tree and records them in the Bitmark blockchain a specified times.

(ready for a shocker? I'm part of the Bitmark core team(not a dev yet though) and we decided not to join superNET, but superNET can still integrate marking as anyone can since it's free software and we will assist them in implementing it.)

Yes, BBR will have to be converted like you say. And that part of superNET does serve a similar function as ripple, but as you can see in my list it's quite a bit more than just a collection of gateways.

I try to be objective, but I also have come to like the idea behind superNET. Doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the truth.


Those are the relevant assets for the proposed deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you've made people aware who were not aware that James holds significant portions of his own assets. It makes sense to me for someone operating a fund such as sharkfund0 or jl777hodl to own a large percentage of them in order to maximize your own profits and incentives.

I think it's somewhat obvious that James would own a large portion of his own assets, but if that's not obvious to people then that's fine. What you've done here is good information for anyone who was unware, but I think it could have been presented in a better manner.


The wealthy individuals comment is just my perception based on a bit of reading on the NXT forum where people tend to speak of investing large amounts of NXT and BTC in these type of assets. I could be wrong, I don't know enough about the NXT community to say definitively, which is why I said there "seem to be". Just what it looks like from what I can tell.

I can be objective and still have opinions too, right? Based on all of my readings thus far and watching how he's handled manners related to money, I personally think it's unlikely that it's something he would do. Again, this is where we seem to differ because you've drawn completely different conclusions than I have and seem to think he's some sort of scam artist. Nothing we can do here but wait to see how things play out.

You're right. I'm trying to get away from my former life as a pedant, but I still have enough pedant power to chip in here. To be more than, the OP's surmise (might as well call it that) requires - at a minimum - documentation of the complete trade records of said assets plus either a well-reasoned argument or a standard algo that demonstrates why the trading pattern of these assets - over their lifetime of they being traded - is suspicious.

And that would require a lotta work plus some hard research & thinking. Frankly, I'm not going to blame the OP for punting away all the work it would require; he has a life and it's plainly unreasonable to expect him to put in a lot of work for free. Suffice it to say that I'm at least vaguely aware of the pitfalls and hidden responsibilities awaiting anyone who tries to play securities regulator on the Internet. The SEC's job is actually much more straightforward because the stock market is aged and there's many terabytes' worth of trade records that can be used to infer a reasonably tight set of statistical quirks that indicate malfeasance.

As of now - I'm guessing here - the total number of trades of all Nxt assets doesn't comprise a large enough statistical universe from which to draw reasonably solid inferences about trading patterns that clearly indicate something on the sly has taken place. So instead, and thanks to the time pressures we all have, we have to fly on opinion, supposition, conjecture and - yes - surmise. When flying blind's all you can do, you fly blind if you must. Or, you don't fly at all and learn to live with being ground-bound.

DISCLOSURE: I own 100 TOKENs, but it's far from the majority of my portfolio.

I can only say Huh? and offer you something like this. Say ethereum team offers 10million coin for sale (ethereum cause they call themselves DACs rather than coins), out of which only 1.4million is sold. And it is such that, 0.532 million of coins is held by Vitalik. Now tell me what is wrong with the picture? (hint distribution)

I for one having been saying that its fine if you want to invest in Supernet ie"agree to disagree". But you kept piling on "op doesn't understand" or "what proof you have of a pump?" whereas it was already stated. So thankfully, that got through you that I am fine with you not agreeing but please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts.

Ok my bad on the comment then. Its difficult to read motives when you are throwing things like "op doesn't understand". Though I am scratching my head, whats so shocking about Bitmark not deciding to join and you being part of it? hm....you mean how I called you an unreliable "objective" observer? Read the first line of this para.

As for the long list, its basically gateway for crypto + fiat along with intergrated exchange (how many coins have that in their wallet?). Maybe bitmark's reputation system and privatebet will be something new. And what is that exactly worth? 10k BTC?

Relevant assets for the proposed deal?

what you say now and said earlier are in clear conflict. First you say "OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP." meaning jl777 has highligted all his dealings and people on his thread are aware of it that too in the thread op and I was in the wrong., now you say only what is relevant?

As I said, you flip flop so often its quite clear (IMO ;) ) where your sympathy lies.

Lets say even if those are "relevant" actually do some maths and see if the calculations he gave hold up (now before you ask me for proof, for once be an objective observer and do some digging).

Yes you can be objective and have opinions but not present them as facts.

The whole wealthy thing is your perception, and if you follow the "facts" - the largest owners of sharkfund0 (again to rake this up, why I am mentioning this is because of the 400% returns) - is that the largest "wealthy" owner of sharkfund0 is jl777 himself. The largest holder after his fund are:
 NXT-G9WM-6HNW-FMF2-6T8M2 @ 12.5%. Though this account holds most of the jl777 assets only, I still refrained from making a wild guess and saying this was his too
NXT-3R28-ZBCB-E8GT-C34JC - @ 10%

rounding up more than 85% of the issue. So I am still finding the whole "largest owenrs" of nxt part unbelievable.

You know, again in the realm of "agree to disagree", it could also mean that NXT AE is full of shitty assets no one wants to hold. Anyone wanting to utilise AE needs to depend on jl777's asset. Something like cryptsy on cryptostocks.com  

Edit: Anways I am tired of debating this out with you. But if you think reputation and "not showing any signs" is good enough, do read up on Allen Stanford - his name was synomous with Standford university even when he was not associated with it.

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

Water under the digital bridge. :)


Let me be more precise - this time briefly. :) All you have at this point is evidence that there's cross-ownership. In and of itself, all you've shown is that James' assets are indistinguishable from a collection that in part serves as a set of holding companies. Holding companies are 100% legitimate in the outside world, and have been so for ~ a century if not more.

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing. Hence my admittedly strict use of the word "surmise."

But before I go, I did compose that "unreasonable" part as a disguised warning to you. There are some people around here that are demanding, and you might find yourself feeling obliged to work a lot for free without quite knowing why. "Know When To Draw The Line."  :)

Except that Ethereum is not an investment fund that uses capital raised to invest on behalf of shareholders where as sharkfund0 is as far as I know. Distribution of an investment fund?

If I created my own investment fund named fishfund0 tomorrow and issued 10000 shares at 1 BTC each and only ended up selling 20 shares then I would have 20 BTC in capital to invest with. And if 10 of those share were either bought by me or issued to me through the terms of the fund then it wouldn't make any difference what so ever in how the fund operates. 9980 outstanding shares or 100000. It's not a cryptocurrency or anything like Ether, or even XRP.

"please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts." I have no idea what you're referring to here and if you'd like to give me an example of me claiming something to be a fact that's not just my supposition, please do.


I thought you might be surprised that we decided not to join superNET considering you've been portraying me as a "kool aid drinker" this whole time.

The speculative value of superNET comes from the potential profits that are expected to be paid as dividends to shareholders. The intention is to become a portal for every user of crypto. To the point where people won't need to use any other wallet than the one they have that has the superNET GUI integrated in to it. If crypto continues to grow and superNET works out how it's intended to it's not too hard to imagine that having a share in a service such as this might be profitable. It's definitely risky like every thing in this space, and no one is making any guarantees.


I don't understand what you're getting at here. You said specifically: "Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where."

He's putting in his assets, one of which include 4.46% ownership in jl777hodl. He owns the assets he's putting in. I don't see what sharkfund0 has to do with this exchange considering there's no purchase of shares as far I know. Only a transfer of asset between James and UNITY.

Where's the deception?

I don't think I flip flop. You've implied from the beginning that there has been some sort of intentional deception on James' part regarding his ownership in assets related to him. And you've also accused him of doing much worse than that based on absolutely nothing that implies any of the things you've accused. I've maintained from the beginning that I have not observed him to be deceptive at all in his communications regarding his assets. If you want to show me that I've been misreading or ignoring his posts feel free to show me where I'm wrong.


Again, please show me where I've used language that implies that I presented that as a fact. I try to specifically make sure that I don't do such things, so if you have an example please quote it. In this instance I said "seem to", but you keep insisting that I presented that as a fact when I think should have been fairly obvious that I was just making an observation that is probably right based on the amount of money that gets invested in these assets, but isn't something that I would ever try to pass off as anything more than 'likely'. The "wealthy" part comes from the fact that there are many holders of large amounts of NXT in the NXT community and the market value of their NXT is often significant. You can claim that you think that James is the on who holds all those other accounts that hold significant percentages in sharkfund0 or any other asset, but from what I can tell there are real people in the NXT community who do actively invest in the AE(and presumable some of James' assets as well considering their market caps). Someone more involved with the NXT community can elaborate more on this perhaps.

Thank you


Um, no, I have more than enough evidence and its all there in the op. They say "devil is in the details" and it would get an astute thinker to go through whats been presented and what I am getting at. I think the op already says something along the line that - "you might interpret what has been written in your own way. but if you need help get someone else to help you". most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

I like that you admit to the colored glasses but then in a similarly expressed opinion, I would say I am not pro or anti anyone, but then people find it difficult to believe as I am obviously spreading FUD (it is a newbie account right? so why bother).

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

I think NxtBlg said it best here:


If you think the accusations that you've made logically follow from the evidence that you presented, even in a loose sense, then no one is going to convince you otherwise. Because if you go from the spreadsheet to thinking that James is literally running a long con scam in which he intends to bilk massive amounts of money from people who invest in his assets, then you're obviously deriving that based on the assumption that his intentions have been bad from the beginning.

Where as I've come to believe that it's fairly unlikely that his intentions are bad in anyway(and are likely to be good), based on how I've seen him conduct his business dealing thus far and how he's dealt with people in matters related to money. That's my opinion of him at the moment, subject to change if I observe him doing things that might conflict with my current judgement of him as a person.

As time goes on we will see what happens and how James acts in relation to his business dealings. At this point all eyes are on him now in the crypto community. Not just the NXT community. So I'm certain this will not be the last of people accusing him of doing wrong. Everyone will be watching, everything is recorded on public ledgers for all to see as you've shown here with your break down of the asset cross ownership. So far i'm unconvinced of any of the claims that multiple anonymous accounts have made against him thus far, but I'm watching just as everyone else will be.

I just wanted to say, explicitly, that the warning didn't result from any bad experience here - you might say I came in "pre-burned" ;)


In your opinion. Really, that's all you have with respect to that unorthodox set of assets. It's fishy to you, but that's a value judgment on your part. My own value judgment is, "that's the man's style." Believe it or not, I actually spent a full day doing due-diligence on Supernet - and at the end I plunked down only half a Bitcoin!

Essentially, I'm trying to think like a lawyer (which I'm not) in a way that I hope proves to be to your benefit. You do stick out from the usual gang of critics because you're not bullheaded about what you write. :)

At least not to me... ;)

Meh, I am not going to do the numbers for anyone who doesn't want to do it. shout as they may.  Frankly dont care cause its people's money to burn.
 
I hope you do understand how holding companies are structured and supposed to work when you made the unorthodox holding comment. Not just a wiki page definition as to what they actually are. I remember jl777 giving a keiretsu comment and he was taken to the woodshed.

I have been quite clear with my intentions early on, people are free to not believe me and invest, convincing was never intention of this thread. The title set was - "Read before investing in SuperNet" not "Supernet is a scam, run run run!!". So I feel attempts by some supernet people unwarranted and concerning -- that alone is enough for me to not invest - aside from my concerns about jl777, I am not going to be part of any coin community which thinks shouting down a person trying to present a contararion view is the way to go about. Yes that means I have hardly got coins into which I invest in but I am happy with what I got.

Cool...but the people who are at least apparently shouting you down are "pre-burned" too. Sadly, the typical critic 'round here is someone who seems impervious to counter-arguments; that's why they're pegged as FUDsters and trolls. They're pegged that way because they act that way. And you were lumped in with the rest of them; that's the reason for the shouting. FYI if you're baffled. 

Not really baffled, rather sad over the period of time. Normally there are ANN threads where I say something, people start FUD, FUD, FUD, and I keep my mouth shut and move on. Then there was winning proclamation that "oh, we chased the guy away!" and lot of chest thumping. I don't really mind it.

But this was not SuperNet ANN thread and neither this was not an all-out attack. I thought people would read properly and have better sense which obviously they dint, this was not something which went down well with me about Monero and now not with SuperNet.

In any case, nice discussion with you on this. Thanks.

I was going to lock this thread but have decided against it.

Anyone wanting to crunch the numbers you can start with
1. "share of the total" is basically how much a particular price adds to the "holding company/asset total". Normally, value should reflect the constituents + a premium or a discount on the future prospect. Example - Nxtprivacy is priced at 9% discount over the holding, jl777hodl is at 8% premium, whereas sharkfund0 is at whopping 35% premium.


2. If you invest 10000 NXT into jl777 or sharkfund0, what will you finally buying and what cost? example - NXTPrivacy holds 40% cryptocard and 60% private bet, investing in NXTPrivacy and privatebet at 10% both means you buy 10% privatebet + how much more %age of privatebet + cyrptocard?

3. From above if the holding company pricing = constituent asset + premium or - discount, how would buying a constituent affect the asset price? or how would buying the asset affect the constituent price? Where does the money flow to?

No problem & glad to. :) Happy trails.

Do not lock this thread.

Doesn't really matter with fewer people interested in digging and less newer discussions not happening; this will anyways die off.

A way for nxt holders to cashout? As laura@@ said?
I know that there are several whales holding millions of next..

I also think so as it put a buying pressure on NXT.

It might be an ideal way for NXT whales too but I am not going to comment on that. I have been trying to follow the supernet thread for sometime but the constant addition (or BSing) is making my head spin. Best of luck to any one investing in it. I hope you guys make it out safely :)

That said I have been watching some of the coins on the forum, and god there is so much shit to shovel through. These shitcoins make jl777 ipo seem like a diamond.
These include Umbrella backed and insured coin - wtf are those?
Then there was a new 50 BTC ICO for Volatility coin, track volatility and do what exactly? I am not even sure and people bought 50 BTC worth. If they paid me that much, I would have finished the digging and prepared a report instead. I have to say, so many morons on this forum.

Yep, there are far, far, worse things out there than SuperNET.

Couple of other points....I don't really see SuperNET as an 'exit strategy' for NXT whales. SuperNET is going to bring a lot of extra services and traffic into the NXT eco-system, so holding either NXT or SuperNET will give good returns over the long term. Never forget that NXT (and SuperNET) are not about short term pump 'n' dump action, but about building stuff for the long term. NXT is barely a year old, and is very, very successful so far, so I don't think any whales are looking to exit just yet.

https://i.imgur.com/nrcbhkg.png
Just in case some of you guys haven't seen this yet, this diagram gives you an idea of what SuperNET is going to become.
I am pretty sure that jl777 can pull this off (he's already got a massive team of devs/helpers from all the SuperNET communities helping out, btw) so the only question I'm asking myself (and others) is whether this will be the 'killer app' that finally takes crypto mainstream, or just a very cool system of united alt-coins ?

Either way, I'm prepared to put about 10% of my net crypto worth into it, and then see what happens...... 

That was not meant as a praise  ;D

Again like many things said in this thread solely your opinion - long term returns etc.

Well for things to become a killer app they need to be noob friendly. Unfortunately for crypto majority of things don't even come close. Given that supernet explanation is confusing (or as some supernet supporters say - you don't understand jl777 vision), I don't see it becoming killer app (IMO ;) )

Well, I don't want to sound like an arrogant wanker, (probably will, though) but so far I'm very happy with the investment choices that I've made over the last year.
So far the only crypto I've actually lost any serious amount on has been BTC, I'm pretty good at spotting opportunities, and have managed to not get badly scammed/burned yet (except for 0.1 BTC of assorted crapcoins on CryptoRush.....bye bye!). So, I trust my own opinion/intuition, and am putting my money where my mouth is.....


Yep...n00b friendly is nice. Hopefully, as SuperNET/Unity develops, most of the complicated stuff can be hidden 'under the hood', letting people concentrate on the functionality and use. Good software development always takes time, but SuperNET definitely has the resources to create something amazing.

I don't see how SuperNET can be all that confusing (unless you try to follow jl777's complete asset and funding structure  :o ).
SuperNET is a very simple base concept: take a selection of the best alt-coins and join them together. The result is a system that can offer a wide range of functionality from within one interface, and the synergistic effects of pooling resources benefits all currencies in the system. We all win.....

Anyhow...SuperNet ICO is about to close, and the UNITY assets will be issued towards the end of the week:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8916442#msg8916442
So, yeah, let the games begin !

Can someone tell me how many is the limit supply of supernet token?

Good question.....SuperNET tokens are not limited, but the ICO is ending TODAY, round 14.00 GMT.
So there will  be TOKEN available on both BTER and the NXT AE until then.

Or wait to see what happens to the price after ICO closes, but I have a feeling it's gonna remain fairly stable.

The supply is not limited. The ICO should finish when the daily intake is less than 3% of existing total intake.

So if its not limited then the price wont go high and if its all about having some percent from the earning of supernet then the dividends will also too small because of the unlimited buyer of the token? I'm sorry if i didnt understand clearly the supernet.

Supernet is not just a coin. It is a kind of close end investment fund. if the initial investment amount is high, the earning might also be high.

The sales are over so it's now limited. How ever many were bought is the amount of shares that there will be.

SuperNET isn't a coin at all in fact. There is no superNET cryptocurrency, only the asset which holders can trade and receive dividends from.

Yeah i understand that its a share but for example if theres a 100 dollar earning then theres a 50 token then they will divide it to 50 but  because theres no limit of the token then the 50 can become 10k or more so the dividens will become much lower. Please help me to understand. thank you

There are ~800k tokens or so in the available supply. Look in the SuperNet own thread to see the exact number.

Great thread, I thought this sounded fishy from the start but now it all makes sense.

Will the average user profit from Supernet? Possibly.
Will JL777? Most certainly.

The amount of TOKEN was only unlimited during the ICO. Now that the ICO is over the amount of TOKEN(which will be converted to UNITY 1:1) is limited.

He only really profits if the share holders profit though. His bonus structure is based on him multiplying the price by either 3x or 10x. Otherwise this is actually a massive net loss for him.

So I think you got that wrong.

Somehow I doubt that.

Ok?

Have you read the agreement that was just voted on by shareholders? That's what the agreement was.

Just want to note here briefly the NXT project and jl777 have been embroiled in scandals lately and possibly even a lawsuit.

I had recently contacted New York Department of Financial Services regarding them.  Ive made a number of submissions to this site recently regarding them (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=103159;sa=showPosts).

Also the cryptocurrency promoter Edward DeLeon Hickman was outed as a shareholder in SuperNet.

Joshua....don't wanna blow your tiny little mind, but lots of people hold SuperNET, including me.
Is this evidence of a world wide Reptilian conspiracy using crypto to sap the vital juices of human males ? 

The truth about Joshua Zeidner (http://cointelegraph.com/news/112643/the-mystery-of-the-missing-1000000-nxt)

Ha, this SEO game is fun....