rpietila Altcoin Observer

[OrientA]

My latest thinking is a coin with the same parameters as Bitcoin. Verified turn-taking replaces proof-of-work. Block rewards are shared among high-availability full node operators, who must join the Bitcoin foundation, ultimately as voting members, or local equivalent in order to support Bitcoin Core developers.

Membership of Bitcoin foundation costs money. If the rewards are shared among full node operators, then it is similar to PoS. We can allocate some proportion of the block reward to Dev.

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[Ultros]

Interesting choice of logo.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

The more I think about it, the better I like the idea that emission curve should be linear with a constant block reward.

Yup. I've been repeating it like a broken record. A non-decreasing block reward from day 1 would probably have the best long-term distribution because there would be less work/reward variation (except in difficulty, which could also be adjusted on-the-fly).

[OrientA]

Can someone show me a viacoin emission graph?

Put one together quickly:

source

This graph is misleading. It is better to use the proportion to the total coin supply, not the absolute numbers.

[rpietila]

The avenues that have not been adequately treaded as regards emission...

...first that comes to mind is demand-based supply.

If we posit that Bitcoin exists, it is easy to construct a trustless oracle that offers Newcoin against Bitcoin at ever-increasing prices.

Suppose we have a small IPO that defines the initial price. Some of the funds would go to developers and the rest would be eternally loaded in the trustless oracle to take care that it can buy back the Newcoins it has sold for Bitcoin. So it would be a two-way barometer that anyone can enforce to sell or buy Newcoins at the fixed price points.

But that would not have much volume, barely enough that the market participants are interested of keeping its price in line with the actual market rate.

The interesting part is that the trustless oracle can be used in the emission function (difficulty adjustment) such that the higher price climbs, the more coins per block will be created. And vice versa. This mitigates the swings, and provides coins when the market is in demand of them. Without needing a committee for determining the need, it is all hardcoded.

Mircea Popescu has used the similar construction in his stock offerings long back. I also had a proposal for a business network with unincorporated shares trading as a currency back in 2000-2001 (this carries much similarity to SuperNet btw. except that this very component is afaik not present in SuperNet). Disclaimer: mine did not work and I don't believe this (SuperNet) will either. It is a certain level of economic understanding that breeds those ideas.

[Este Nuno]

The idea behind superNET is not that complicated really. The technical implementation of all of it may be, but the result, or at least what it intends to offer is pretty simple.

For the end user it will be a GUI that offers access to all of the different services that are connected to the network. The GUI will be accessible from wallets of coins that are part of the network.

As far as what services will be accessible from the GUI at some point, so far it sounds like it will be something like this:

-Ability to send BBR transactions with other currencies(which of course use CN's ring signatures and BBR's unlinkable outputs upgrade)
-Buy and sell assets with whatever currency you're using on the NXT decentralised asset exchange instantly with James' InstantDEX and MGW tech.
-Buy and sell crypto and fiat through the coinomat service. Which is apparently offering some sort of anonymous debit card which sounds pretty interesting(but I don't know much about it).
-It will be a platform where service providers will be able to integrate their service to be used directly from the superNET GUI. For example BTER exchange is planning on implementing their service to be fully usable from the superNET GUI.
-Integrating Bitmark's 'marking' reputation+trust system which integrates Martti Malmi's(sirius on here) Identifi. This will be helpful for using the asset exchange and to help rate any service provider on the network(or any object really).
-Decentralised peer to peer anonymous betting system via James' Privatebet tech.

We've been talking about how important the network effect is now for ages, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I've noticed that technological process in this space seems to happen incrementally with new cryptos coming out that usually solve one problem, or come out with one new improvement at a time. Recent examples being CN's ring signatures and Cryptonite's miniblockchain. The idea that the end user won't have to continually switch currencies in order to take advantage of any new and useful improvements is something different. It would seem that it offers a mutually beneficial situation for both the superNET and the creator of the technology: the network provides the demand and the users, and the technology creators provide just the services(supply). Taking away the fact that anyone creating new technology is currently forced to go and create a whole new currency on their own with no user base to start out, and forced to compete in a sea of shit, sounds like it could be a better environment to help foster innovation. Yes, they will still be creating a new currency, but if this works out the way it's intended to, the technology itself will be able to be judged on its own merits and be on an even playing field.

I wish the trolls and people in general would focus more on the idea and the tech behind the idea rather than the constant 'it's all a big scam' posts. If if superNET isn't it, the theory behind the idea is interesting. A meta network of cryptos actually solves some of the issues of the altcoin scene. Fractured user bases, lack of network effect, constant need to 'pump' currencies. If this actually works technologies will succeed based on the demand for them. If you provide a useful service that people use which results in people using your currency via the network, then the demand part of the equation is solved if the network has a sufficient amount of users.

Maybe it's too good to be true and something like this will only ever be a dream for non-Bitcoin currencies. The idea itself still has a lot of merit I think.

[paratox]

Suppose we have a small IPO that defines the initial price. Some of the funds would go to developers and the rest would be eternally loaded in the trustless oracle to take care that it can buy back the Newcoins it has sold for Bitcoin. So it would be a two-way barometer that anyone can enforce to sell or buy Newcoins at the fixed price points.

But that would not have much volume, barely enough that the market participants are interested of keeping its price in line with the actual market rate.

The interesting part is that the trustless oracle can be used in the emission function (difficulty adjustment) such that the higher price climbs, the more coins per block will be created. And vice versa. This mitigates the swings, and provides coins when the market is in demand of them. Without needing a committee for determining the need, it is all hardcoded.

Sounds like eMunie's supply-demand model.

[rpietila]

Maybe it's too good to be true and something like this will only ever be a dream for non-Bitcoin currencies. The idea itself still has a lot of merit I think.

As a quite idea-rich person myself, I am sorry to say to you: idea is worth zero, without chances of implementing it to a paying audience.

Here both the qualifications lack for all I know. I am also a business angel, so this is a no-go for me.

Scamming? Let's leave that to the judgement of history. I mentioned that this type of things have in the past been scams with high probability, but even this was too much for jl777 (I sent PM). I wonder if he has ever been in credit check. They don't pronounce you a scammer but evaluate the risks, and if the formula says "too risky", they don't give a loan.

[Este Nuno]

Maybe it's too good to be true and something like this will only ever be a dream for non-Bitcoin currencies. The idea itself still has a lot of merit I think.

As a quite idea-rich person myself, I am sorry to say to you: idea is worth zero, without chances of implementing it to a paying audience.

Here both the qualifications lack for all I know. I am also a business angel, so this is a no-go for me.

Scamming? Let's leave that to the judgement of history. I mentioned that this type of things have in the past been scams with high probability, but even this was too much for jl777 (I sent PM). I wonder if he has ever been in credit check. They don't pronounce you a scammer but evaluate the risks, and if the formula says "too risky", they don't give a loan.

Like I've said before, the reason I find this interesting is that it's not just someone writing ideas on a message board. There's actual code behind it. If this were simply someone posting ideas it wouldn't be worthy of discussion.

The best part about this is that there's no risk just to watch and observe and possibly help where needed. That's what I'm doing myself and that's what other people I know who are more capable than I are planning on doing.

[rpietila]

The best part about this is that there's no risk just to watch and observe and possibly help where needed. That's what I'm doing myself and that's what other people I know who are more capable than I are planning on doing.

Exactly this +1. 

Good ideas, such as cryptocurrency, benefit everyone - holders and non-holders alike!

[Este Nuno]

One thing I want to point out quickly regarding the chance that jl777 is pulling some sort of scam(I posted something similar in another thread):

The superNET funds are going to be held in distributed escrow. And it's actually worked out right now, due to the quickness of the launch that James currently holds a very large amount of NXT. And this amount of money is currently more then he's ever likely to hold again during the course of the project. So if his plan was to scam a large sum of money he's either going to do in with in the next few days or he's not going to at all. I think it's pretty clear that he's not going to do it at this point. The window of opportunity for him to scam is closing rapidly.

I've done a fair amount of reading in to the project and watched the way he handles issues related to money and I'm pretty confident that he's legit.

The biggest issue is finding people that can be trusted to escrow large amounts of money. I believe he intends to make extensive use of multisig so that might help in that regard.

It seems like a lot of people tend to get the impression that he's running some sort of con when they first encounter him and his writings. And I can kind of see why considering the amounts of money we're talking about and the causal way he talks about it(edit: his approach to securing the money though isn't casual). But I've also not encountered anyone yet who's spent the time to fully familiarize themselves with what he's doing and still hold that opinion. If this thing was intended to be a scam then he's failed miserably at it because I'm fairly certain that he could have easily arranged the situation to be one where he held nearly all the funds raised for the project. It doesn't really add up so far.

It's still possible of course that we're dealing with some sort of ultra-intelligent sociopath who's planning on pulling a Gox level scam down the road and this is just him laying the ground work. The thing about that is we would never be able to tell the difference anyway at this point and you could say the same about anyone who appears to be honestly running any large project. I doubt that is the case though personally.

[devphp]

Too bad there is no multisig in NXT yet, it is scheduled for later this year.
Yeah, if his plan is to run, he will do it very soon, won't take long to wait what happens.

[rdnkjdi]

It seems like a lot of people tend to get the impression that he's running some sort of con when they first encounter him and his writings. And I can kind of see why considering the amounts of money we're talking about and the causal way he talks about it. But I've also not encountered anyone yet who's spent the time to fully familiarize themselves with what he's doing and still hold that opinion. If this thing was intended to be a scam then he's failed miserably at it because I'm fairly certain that he could have easily arranged the situation to be one where he held nearly all the funds raised for the project. It doesn't really add up so far.

Based on my (very limited) understanding on all of this.  The angle here is that jl777 owns many / most of the assets being aggregated into the SuperNET fund.  By combining and selling the assets in a single commodity - he's creating much more demand for his assets that had a much lower demand and price previously.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this.  Just that that seems to be the "angle" to me.  The term "network" has created a demand for assets he held that previously didn't have much demand.

People are rapidly learning in crypto that the shortest route to big bucks is controlled supply + increased demand.

[Moneroman88]

One thing I want to point out quickly regarding the chance that jl777 is pulling some sort of scam(I posted something similar in another thread):

The superNET funds are going to be held in distributed escrow. And it's actually worked out right now, due to the quickness of the launch that James currently holds a very large amount of NXT. And this amount of money is currently more then he's ever likely to hold again during the course of the project.

Complete bullshit, jl777 has now collected over 27000000 NXT (that's 2100 BTC or over 1 MILLION US DOLLARS) from selling the shady TOKEN assets in his NXT account to that only he, I repeat, ONLY HE HIMSELF has access.

http://www.nxtreporting.com/?ac=NXT-MRBN-8DFH-PFMK-A4DBM

He has this amount and can run away at any given time, unexpectedly and suddenly. Don't dare to state fairytales. He said his aim is 10000 BTC so don't expect him to run away before that date (I don't). *Mark my words*, once 10k BTC is full jl777 is going to be *vanished*. You SuperNET cult members will all cry like little babies then mourning for your losses that will never come back because the smart one took it. Do people ever learn? Do they ever learn? It's horrendous...

[rdnkjdi]

One thing I want to point out quickly regarding the chance that jl777 is pulling some sort of scam(I posted something similar in another thread):

The superNET funds are going to be held in distributed escrow. And it's actually worked out right now, due to the quickness of the launch that James currently holds a very large amount of NXT. And this amount of money is currently more then he's ever likely to hold again during the course of the project.

Complete bullshit, jl777 has now collected over 27000000 NXT (that's 2100 BTC or over 1 MILLION US DOLLARS) from selling the shady TOKEN assets in his NXT account to that only he, I repeat, ONLY HE HIMSELF has access.

http://www.nxtreporting.com/?ac=NXT-MRBN-8DFH-PFMK-A4DBM

He has this amount and can run away at any given time, unexpectedly and suddenly. Don't dare to state fairytales. He said his aim is 10000 BTC so don't expect him to run away before that date (I don't). *Mark my words*, once 10k BTC is full jl777 is going to be *vanished*. You SuperNET cult members will all cry like little babies then mourning for your losses that will never come back because the smart one took it. Do people ever learn? Do they ever learn? It's horrendous...

Shut up and go away. 

Thanks.

[Ultros]

I beg you to use the almighty ignore button and stop quoting that troll. Please.

[dnaleor]

What about an emission based on the s-curve of adotion?



1) very few coins exist and can be mined. the devs maily mine to test the coin. If they want, they can choose to not make this phase public. The coins mined in this phase are the reward for the devs.
2) coin goes public. people try the coin and learn about the new technology.
3) people know that the inflation will go up soon and try to anticipate the coming monetary inflation by creating awareness of the coin. Big (professional) miners jump in
4) more and more people learn the existance of the coin, buy some, maybe mine some. only 50% of the total coins are in existence
5) the people who are risk averse now adopt the coin, they buy small amounts
6) the new coin is adopted by the community
7) coin is now mainstream. No more inflation

This emission will ensure, in my optinion, that the coin will have a relatively stable growth in exchange rate.

[arnuschky]

The idea behind superNET is not that complicated really. The technical implementation of all of it may be, but the result, or at least what it intends to offer is pretty simple.

I think that is my main issue (I probably explained it badly before): all explanations either high-level and very broad, or descend into irrelevant technical details.
I haven't yet seen a usable explanation (whitepaper or the like) on how this coin-connecting network will work.

[arnuschky]

Este Nuno, thanks for your posting btw.

Like I've said before, the reason I find this interesting is that it's not just someone writing ideas on a message board. There's actual code behind it. If this were simply someone posting ideas it wouldn't be worthy of discussion.

Code is easy to produce. Good code is hard to produce. Good code is useless if the concepts behind it are flawed.

Let's reduce the case of superNET to a simple example. Two altcoins, alt1 and alt2. SuperNET claims that I can use it to send coins from alt1 to alt2 and vice versa, right?
A few questions regarding this:

• how are the ledgers between alt1 and alt2 linked?
• how is the exchange rate of alt1 vs. alt2 determined?
• how do they prevent flaws from alt1 influencing alt2 (or the whole network)?

So, what I miss is a clear description of the cryptographic concepts behind it. And everytime I ask about it, people either answer "the idea is so awesome!!!" or "we use JSON/REST and Teleport whatever!". 

The best part about this is that there's no risk just to watch and observe and possibly help where needed. That's what I'm doing myself and that's what other people I know who are more capable than I are planning on doing.

That's true.

[Jungian]

Anoncoin is releasing their implentation of Zerocoin in little over a month

As I promised two weeks ago, here is an estimate for completion of Zerocoin-in-Anoncoin that I feel has a very high chance of being met (a "hard deadline").

By October 15, I'll have Zerocoin integration in "alpha" state, and on a testnet for anybody to try.

By November 1, I'll have Zerocoin in mainnet, which means you can use the ANC you have now to mint and spend zerocoins. It will still be in "beta", meaning you should pay attention to our website, IRC, and our bitcointalk.org thread for security updates to the wallet and anoncoind; this is especially important if you are a miner or running a relay node.

There have been some price action following this announcement

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/anoncoin/#charts