Read before investing in SuperNet ICO

[CryptoCarmen]

So the guy made 4000 posts on this forum in one year, but did not bothered to reply on this post?

There's nothing really to reply to, if you have any questions he seems to be answering them in the official superNET thread.

So the guy made 4000 posts on this forum in one year, but did not bothered to reply on this post?

I'd rather have him coding than posting, tbh.

So you two agree all is as it is written here and you like it how it is?

[Este Nuno]

So the guy made 4000 posts on this forum in one year, but did not bothered to reply on this post?

There's nothing really to reply to, if you have any questions he seems to be answering them in the official superNET thread.

So the guy made 4000 posts on this forum in one year, but did not bothered to reply on this post?

I'd rather have him coding than posting, tbh.

So you two agree all is as it is written here and you like it how it is?

Have you read the thread?

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

For people who weren't aware of how James structures his assets it's always good to do your own research before investing in anything. So if this thread caused some people to dive in more and attempt to better understand what they were considering investing in, then I guess it might have done some good.

Any specific points you feel need to be addressed? There's not much we can say about things like OP speculating that James manipulates the price of his assets by self trading them. There seem to be a fair amount of wealthy individuals buying them on their own in the NXT community so I would say that in general the evidence goes against that. But if someone can come up with some evidence that jl777 is in fact doing that then it would be worth looking in to. But it doesn't really seem like something he would do, or that is even necessary considering how people in the NXT community seem to value his assets currently.

[supranetico]

Sure I wish I owned both BTCD and BBR, but that doesn't make the gains in sharkfund0 an less true. Obviously the whole point of investing in something like sharkfund0 is to delegate the investing decisions and distribute risk. I wish I could just pick whatever stock goes up in the Dow Jones rather than just investing in the index too.

I don't own any jl777 related coins or assets so I'm not biased from any financial perspective. I try to look at the situation objectively. I like the idea behind superNET though as I think I've made clear. I think if it works out it's potentially a game changer for alternative currencies.

If you feel that someone saying "at least attempt to tell the truth" is equivalent to directly calling someone a liar then that's fine. My intention when writing that wasn't to brand you as some sort of serial liar, but it thought it was very suspicious that you had been researching all of this superNET stuff and happened to miss that part. But I thought we established that you didn't mean to intentionally mislead, so there's not much point in discussing it further.

Ok lets see if we can do this without the name calling.

First of all, gains in sharkfund0?
I don't think you fully grasp the situation. Here's the figure - 10k was issued. Total bought? 10k - 8617.8186 = 1382 were only sold ie 14% of the issue sold (a grand total of 3 asset sold since I posted the op). Out of the sold portion, 38% is held by jl777 himself (forget the what was held by NXTVenture - another 25%). If thats not a failure of an issues I don't know what is. I think it will make a much merrier picture if we can find the post and pre 400% gain announcement.
so fret not, you can still buy the asset though at the inflated price.

Secondly, you want a proof of the pump. I would rather ask you what proof, other than jl777's reputation, of not being any? None. Proof of one being in place? At least 2, one the majority shares being held by him and him alone, and secondly failure that is called NXT AE allowing large transactions to pass through at very low fees - 1 NXT.

Why not ask this question to jl777 and he can hire someone who could go through his account? I guess his stature is too tall and many will piss in their pants before they get this bold.

So the fact that 7 people in this thread did in fact "take statements of a "newbie account" as the gospel truth" seems to support what I said. Some people will believe what they want to believe and it doesn't take much for them to form an opinion. It's obviously easier to just say "oh fuck that superNET shit, it's just a scam" then to actually spend the time reading and researching what it actually is.

I said they were "his words" because I remember him saying just that in the thread. I didn't go to github to go count the lines myself. I'm not a programmer and to be honest I don't really care if there are 40k lines or not. I know enough that lines of code aren't any specific measure of work, but it tells me he's at least coding. Which is to me the reason I have any interest at all in superNET. Since he's not just talking about doing it, he's actually attempting to build it.

I certainly don't think he's "jesus", or anything other than just someone who seems to have a lot of motivation to get things done. He could stand to be more organized and more clear with his ideas. Also, I think he would benefit from slowing down a little bit and focusing on less things at once. But apparently that's not how he works. He's the one doing shit and I'm not, so I'm not one to argue.

Also I think you underestimate what he's trying to build. You keep comparing it to ripple or the MGW. I wrote this recently in another thread as an example of what you should be able to do from the superNET GUI that will be launched from any wallet that's a part of superNET:

-Ability to send BBR transactions with other currencies(which of course use CN's ring signatures and BBR's unlinkable outputs upgrade)
-Buy and sell assets with whatever currency you're using on the NXT decentralised asset exchange instantly with James' InstantDEX and MGW tech.
-Buy and sell crypto and fiat through the coinomat service. Which is apparently offering some sort of anonymous debit card which sounds pretty interesting(but I don't know much about it).
-It will be a platform where service providers will be able to integrate their service to be used directly from the superNET GUI. For example BTER exchange is planning on implementing their service to be fully usable from the superNET GUI.
-Integrating Bitmark's 'marking' reputation+trust system which integrates Martti Malmi's(sirius on here) Identifi. This will be helpful for using the asset exchange and to help rate any service provider on the network(or any object really).
-Decentralised peer to peer anonymous betting system via James' Privatebet tech.

Again there you go with your broken comprehension. There weren't 7 people who took newbie account's words as the truth, rather made averse statement about Supernet ie the thread was a fairly balanced one. If you really want to count people who were convinced they are none. There were those who had perceived notions about it being iffy and then found some value in numbers I put out. Or do you think they all read and said "holy shit! 500 BTC for 2k BTC assets" and took off? I see you are promoting the fact

people who support jl777 had all the equations down to the number of how much jl777 held

vs

every other person who was against jl777 as a sorry person who looks at newbie account at gets convinced? Until you hold this notion, I have to call you a moron and ask you to get off your high horse.

There are people who are much smarter than you on bitcointalk and will not invest in supernet, even if it is not because of what I said.

Do you know the beauty of github? It tracks each line being changed, so if I change the date in a header file, it will show it as a line changed. Before you jump the gun, I am not commenting about jl777, rather how weak your "objective" look of things is. If past posts are an indication, I am sure you will change your tune now and say you and the complete jl777 junta understands this too.

How will SuperNet leverage BBR's ring signature or BITMARK feature? Just out of thin air? No, the coin you hold, say BTCD needs to converted to BBR or BITMARK to be able to use that feature. Supernet will charge a fees on that transaction. So basically building a BTCD to BBR and BTCD to BITMARK and BBR to BITMARK (by triangulation) market which is good, no doubt but...

it is similar to what ripple does which is...provide a way for people to leverage usage of different assets by allowing them to input USD to buy ripple and then convert it to metals (some gateway) , BTC etc. So in a way, the market is built for USD to XRP to GOLD or BTC and triangulation markets.

[supranetico]

Have you read the thread?

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

While I take no issues with you doing your own conjecture of the facts, you keep making statements which do nothing but make you foolish. OP wasn't aware? Really? And how do you know this?
Lets check the supernet OP, shall we? Media coverage, tweets, prediction market, after market.....ah yes NextVenture and the core (not cross) assets:

NXTventure
NXTventure is an incubator for revenue producing "companies" and an asset is created to encapsulate each new revenue stream. The NXT that is raised is allocated for this "venture capital" -> offering the asset on NXT AE. Already over 30 million NXT is available for investing. Privatebet is seeking casino game joint ventures for this, but any promising revenue making service is a candidate. More details: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8695499;topicseen#msg8695499

Core Assets
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8770928#msg8770928 has more details.
I will put into SuperNET a minimum of 241485 assets (24.15%) for all three core assets:

InstantDEX   241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   49   44.5   (has 30% of NXTventure) = 7.245%
Tradebots     241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   27   20    (has 18.5% JLH) = 4.46%
NXTprivacy   241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   40   39    (has 30% cryptocard + 60% Privatebet) = 7.245% + 14.49%

With 24.15% of each of the above three core assets, there is the following percentage that will be directly or indirectly owned:

InstantDEX 24.15%
Tradebots (NXTcoinsco) 24.15%
NXTprivacy 24.15%
Privatebet 14.49%
cryptocard 7.245%
NXTventure 7.245%
jl777hodl 4.46%

Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where.

For people who weren't aware of how James structures his assets it's always good to do your own research before investing in anything. So if this thread caused some people to dive in more and attempt to better understand what they were considering investing in, then I guess it might have done some good.

This I agree to.

Any specific points you feel need to be addressed? There's not much we can say about things like OP speculating that James manipulates the price of his assets by self trading them. There seem to be a fair amount of wealthy individuals buying them on their own in the NXT community so I would say that in general the evidence goes against that. But if someone can come up with some evidence that jl777 is in fact doing that then it would be worth looking in to. But it doesn't really seem like something he would do, or that is even necessary considering how people in the NXT community seem to value his assets currently.

Fair amount of wealthy individuals is it? So why is the 400% return sharkfund0 still with 14% of the fund sold till date? Or rather why the majority of the shareholding is done by the jl777 or his own assets? Its like motorola holding majority of google's share if they were so hot and then claiming oh! google shares are so hot!!
Something he would do? So while you think low of my conjecture (which maybe fair), your "proof" is - it doesn't seem like something he would do? Yep totally an "objective" fact based observer.

[rdnkjdi]

Monero please stop these nonsense accusation .. what are you a community of whine children ?

There's NOTHING wrong with negative or positive opinions as long as they carry substance.  I appreciated the "Monero is a Scam" thread just because it helped condense and wrap my mind around the baggage / issues that came with it.  If I was seriously considering the SuperNet ICO I would appreciate this thread and the OP's post.

What people don't seem to get is that facts actually matter.  Watching them being debated by both the OP and SuperNet supporters help people make educated decisions rather than buying hype/flavor of the month.  It also helps stabilize the price upfront.  When people know exactly what they're getting - finding out stuff later that they already know won't send them into a panic.   Also seeing accusations that aren't true come up again and again won't send them into a panic.

[supranetico]

Monero please stop these nonsense accusation .. what are you a community of whine children ?

There's NOTHING wrong with negative or positive opinions as long as they carry substance.  I appreciated the "Monero is a Scam" thread just because it helped condense and wrap my mind around the baggage / issues that came with it.  If I was seriously considering the SuperNet ICO I would appreciate this thread and the OP's post.

What people don't seem to get is that facts actually matter.  Watching them being debated by both the OP and SuperNet supporters help people make educated decisions rather than buying hype/flavor of the month.  It also helps stabilize the price upfront.  When people know exactly what they're getting - finding out stuff later that they already know won't send them into a panic.   Also seeing accusations that aren't true come up again and again won't send them into a panic.

You are talking to the wrong person. Mr. Stealthcoin here has done nothing but shout FUD, FUD, FUD all over the thread. He has yet to debate any of the facts, other than lashing out on anyone who even remotely tries to agree with me. You might also get a fair share once he comes around.
Cryptos nowadays is more about intolerance into the coin you have bought into.

[supranetico]

Edited.

[Este Nuno]

Ok lets see if we can do this without the name calling.

First of all, gains in sharkfund0?
I don't think you fully grasp the situation. Here's the figure - 10k was issued. Total bought? 10k - 8617.8186 = 1382 were only sold ie 14% of the issue sold (a grand total of 3 asset sold since I posted the op). Out of the sold portion, 38% is held by jl777 himself (forget the what was held by NXTVenture - another 25%). If thats not a failure of an issues I don't know what is. I think it will make a much merrier picture if we can find the post and pre 400% gain announcement.
so fret not, you can still buy the asset though at the inflated price.

Secondly, you want a proof of the pump. I would rather ask you what proof, other than jl777's reputation, of not being any? None. Proof of one being in place? At least 2, one the majority shares being held by him and him alone, and secondly failure that is called NXT AE allowing large transactions to pass through at very low fees - 1 NXT.

Why not ask this question to jl777 and he can hire someone who could go through his account? I guess his stature is too tall and many will piss in their pants before they get this bold.

Maybe I missing something but I don't really see how the amount of shares issued in an asset like sharkfund0 really matters. The assets are listed to raise capital that gets invested back in other currencies/assets that the fund manager decides are acceptable for the fund. At least that's the way I think it operates, I'm not an expert on jl777 assets at all. But from my reading and learning about superNET and his assets I have never gotten the impression that he's attempting to deceive or hide information from people regarding them. That's where me and you differ I think, you seem to think that he's intentionally attempting to deceive potential investors about the nature of his assets.

Again there you go with your broken comprehension. There weren't 7 people who took newbie account's words as the truth, rather made averse statement about Supernet ie the thread was a fairly balanced one. If you really want to count people who were convinced they are none. There were those who had perceived notions about it being iffy and then found some value in numbers I put out. Or do you think they all read and said "holy shit! 500 BTC for 2k BTC assets" and took off? I see you are promoting the fact

people who support jl777 had all the equations down to the number of how much jl777 held

vs

every other person who was against jl777 as a sorry person who looks at newbie account at gets convinced? Until you hold this notion, I have to call you a moron and ask you to get off your high horse.

There are people who are much smarter than you on bitcointalk and will not invest in supernet, even if it is not because of what I said.

I don't think we're really disagreeing here. I've been saying that people who want to believe that superNET is a scam will read what you wrote and use it to further cement their opinion that it is such. Like you say, they already have perceived notions about it.

And yes, I'm sure thousands of people if not tens of thousands of people on here who are smarter than me who won't invest in superNET.

Do you know the beauty of github? It tracks each line being changed, so if I change the date in a header file, it will show it as a line changed. Before you jump the gun, I am not commenting about jl777, rather how weak your "objective" look of things is. If past posts are an indication, I am sure you will change your tune now and say you and the complete jl777 junta understands this too.

How will SuperNet leverage BBR's ring signature or BITMARK feature? Just out of thin air? No, the coin you hold, say BTCD needs to converted to BBR or BITMARK to be able to use that feature. Supernet will charge a fees on that transaction. So basically building a BTCD to BBR and BTCD to BITMARK and BBR to BITMARK (by triangulation) market which is good, no doubt but...

it is similar to what ripple does which is...provide a way for people to leverage usage of different assets by allowing them to input USD to buy ripple and then convert it to metals (some gateway) , BTC etc. So in a way, the market is built for USD to XRP to GOLD or BTC and triangulation markets.

This is where I don't think you're understanding me. Before when I qualified the lines of code statement with "(his words)" you perceived that I meant that as some sort of praise towards him and thought that was some sort of statement of deference to him(your "jesus" comment before). I meant it to mean that I haven't independently checked that fact out at all so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I know how github works and I know how meaningless lines of code are as a metric which is why I was trying to convey the fact that he could simply be saying that as something that's 'technically true' but doesn't necessarily mean much.

With regards to Bitmark marking will be integrated in to superNET, but each marking adoption does all the marking transactions locally and then hashes them in to a merkle tree and records them in the Bitmark blockchain a specified times.

(ready for a shocker? I'm part of the Bitmark core team(not a dev yet though) and we decided not to join superNET, but superNET can still integrate marking as anyone can since it's free software and we will assist them in implementing it.)

Yes, BBR will have to be converted like you say. And that part of superNET does serve a similar function as ripple, but as you can see in my list it's quite a bit more than just a collection of gateways.

I try to be objective, but I also have come to like the idea behind superNET. Doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the truth.

Have you read the thread?

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

While I take no issues with you doing your own conjecture of the facts, you keep making statements which do nothing but make you foolish. OP wasn't aware? Really? And how do you know this?
Lets check the supernet OP, shall we? Media coverage, tweets, prediction market, after market.....ah yes NextVenture and the core (not cross) assets:

NXTventure
NXTventure is an incubator for revenue producing "companies" and an asset is created to encapsulate each new revenue stream. The NXT that is raised is allocated for this "venture capital" -> offering the asset on NXT AE. Already over 30 million NXT is available for investing. Privatebet is seeking casino game joint ventures for this, but any promising revenue making service is a candidate. More details: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8695499;topicseen#msg8695499

Core Assets
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762346.msg8770928#msg8770928 has more details.
I will put into SuperNET a minimum of 241485 assets (24.15%) for all three core assets:

InstantDEX   241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   49   44.5   (has 30% of NXTventure) = 7.245%
Tradebots     241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   27   20    (has 18.5% JLH) = 4.46%
NXTprivacy   241'485   1'000'000   24.15%   40   39    (has 30% cryptocard + 60% Privatebet) = 7.245% + 14.49%

With 24.15% of each of the above three core assets, there is the following percentage that will be directly or indirectly owned:

InstantDEX 24.15%
Tradebots (NXTcoinsco) 24.15%
NXTprivacy 24.15%
Privatebet 14.49%
cryptocard 7.245%
NXTventure 7.245%
jl777hodl 4.46%

Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where.

Those are the relevant assets for the proposed deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you've made people aware who were not aware that James holds significant portions of his own assets. It makes sense to me for someone operating a fund such as sharkfund0 or jl777hodl to own a large percentage of them in order to maximize your own profits and incentives.

I think it's somewhat obvious that James would own a large portion of his own assets, but if that's not obvious to people then that's fine. What you've done here is good information for anyone who was unware, but I think it could have been presented in a better manner.

Fair amount of wealthy individuals is it? So why is the 400% return sharkfund0 still with 14% of the fund sold till date? Or rather why the majority of the shareholding is done by the jl777 or his own assets? Its like motorola holding majority of google's share if they were so hot and then claiming oh! google shares are so hot!!
Something he would do? So while you think low of my conjecture (which maybe fair), your "proof" is - it doesn't seem like something he would do? Yep totally an "objective" fact based observer.

The wealthy individuals comment is just my perception based on a bit of reading on the NXT forum where people tend to speak of investing large amounts of NXT and BTC in these type of assets. I could be wrong, I don't know enough about the NXT community to say definitively, which is why I said there "seem to be". Just what it looks like from what I can tell.

I can be objective and still have opinions too, right? Based on all of my readings thus far and watching how he's handled manners related to money, I personally think it's unlikely that it's something he would do. Again, this is where we seem to differ because you've drawn completely different conclusions than I have and seem to think he's some sort of scam artist. Nothing we can do here but wait to see how things play out.

[Nxtblg]

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

You're right. I'm trying to get away from my former life as a pedant, but I still have enough pedant power to chip in here. To be more than, the OP's surmise (might as well call it that) requires - at a minimum - documentation of the complete trade records of said assets plus either a well-reasoned argument or a standard algo that demonstrates why the trading pattern of these assets - over their lifetime of they being traded - is suspicious.

And that would require a lotta work plus some hard research & thinking. Frankly, I'm not going to blame the OP for punting away all the work it would require; he has a life and it's plainly unreasonable to expect him to put in a lot of work for free. Suffice it to say that I'm at least vaguely aware of the pitfalls and hidden responsibilities awaiting anyone who tries to play securities regulator on the Internet. The SEC's job is actually much more straightforward because the stock market is aged and there's many terabytes' worth of trade records that can be used to infer a reasonably tight set of statistical quirks that indicate malfeasance.

As of now - I'm guessing here - the total number of trades of all Nxt assets doesn't comprise a large enough statistical universe from which to draw reasonably solid inferences about trading patterns that clearly indicate something on the sly has taken place. So instead, and thanks to the time pressures we all have, we have to fly on opinion, supposition, conjecture and - yes - surmise. When flying blind's all you can do, you fly blind if you must. Or, you don't fly at all and learn to live with being ground-bound.

DISCLOSURE: I own 100 TOKENs, but it's far from the majority of my portfolio.

[supranetico]

Maybe I missing something but I don't really see how the amount of shares issued in an asset like sharkfund0 really matters. The assets are listed to raise capital that gets invested back in other currencies/assets that the fund manager decides are acceptable for the fund. At least that's the way I think it operates, I'm not an expert on jl777 assets at all. But from my reading and learning about superNET and his assets I have never gotten the impression that he's attempting to deceive or hide information from people regarding them. That's where me and you differ I think, you seem to think that he's intentionally attempting to deceive potential investors about the nature of his assets.

I can only say Huh? and offer you something like this. Say ethereum team offers 10million coin for sale (ethereum cause they call themselves DACs rather than coins), out of which only 1.4million is sold. And it is such that, 0.532 million of coins is held by Vitalik. Now tell me what is wrong with the picture? (hint distribution)

I for one having been saying that its fine if you want to invest in Supernet ie"agree to disagree". But you kept piling on "op doesn't understand" or "what proof you have of a pump?" whereas it was already stated. So thankfully, that got through you that I am fine with you not agreeing but please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts.

This is where I don't think you're understanding me. Before when I qualified the lines of code statement with "(his words)" you perceived that I meant that as some sort of praise towards him and thought that was some sort of statement of deference to him(your "jesus" comment before). I meant it to mean that I haven't independently checked that fact out at all so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I know how github works and I know how meaningless lines of code are as a metric which is why I was trying to convey the fact that he could simply be saying that as something that's 'technically true' but doesn't necessarily mean much.

With regards to Bitmark marking will be integrated in to superNET, but each marking adoption does all the marking transactions locally and then hashes them in to a merkle tree and records them in the Bitmark blockchain a specified times.

(ready for a shocker? I'm part of the Bitmark core team(not a dev yet though) and we decided not to join superNET, but superNET can still integrate marking as anyone can since it's free software and we will assist them in implementing it.)

Yes, BBR will have to be converted like you say. And that part of superNET does serve a similar function as ripple, but as you can see in my list it's quite a bit more than just a collection of gateways.

I try to be objective, but I also have come to like the idea behind superNET. Doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the truth.

Ok my bad on the comment then. Its difficult to read motives when you are throwing things like "op doesn't understand". Though I am scratching my head, whats so shocking about Bitmark not deciding to join and you being part of it? hm....you mean how I called you an unreliable "objective" observer? Read the first line of this para.

As for the long list, its basically gateway for crypto + fiat along with intergrated exchange (how many coins have that in their wallet?). Maybe bitmark's reputation system and privatebet will be something new. And what is that exactly worth? 10k BTC?

Those are the relevant assets for the proposed deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you've made people aware who were not aware that James holds significant portions of his own assets. It makes sense to me for someone operating a fund such as sharkfund0 or jl777hodl to own a large percentage of them in order to maximize your own profits and incentives.

I think it's somewhat obvious that James would own a large portion of his own assets, but if that's not obvious to people then that's fine. What you've done here is good information for anyone who was unware, but I think it could have been presented in a better manner.

Relevant assets for the proposed deal?

what you say now and said earlier are in clear conflict. First you say "OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP." meaning jl777 has highligted all his dealings and people on his thread are aware of it that too in the thread op and I was in the wrong., now you say only what is relevant?

As I said, you flip flop so often its quite clear (IMO ) where your sympathy lies.

Lets say even if those are "relevant" actually do some maths and see if the calculations he gave hold up (now before you ask me for proof, for once be an objective observer and do some digging).

The wealthy individuals comment is just my perception based on a bit of reading on the NXT forum where people tend to speak of investing large amounts of NXT and BTC in these type of assets. I could be wrong, I don't know enough about the NXT community to say definitively, which is why I said there "seem to be". Just what it looks like from what I can tell.

I can be objective and still have opinions too, right? Based on all of my readings thus far and watching how he's handled manners related to money, I personally think it's unlikely that it's something he would do. Again, this is where we seem to differ because you've drawn completely different conclusions than I have and seem to think he's some sort of scam artist. Nothing we can do here but wait to see how things play out.

Yes you can be objective and have opinions but not present them as facts.

The whole wealthy thing is your perception, and if you follow the "facts" - the largest owners of sharkfund0 (again to rake this up, why I am mentioning this is because of the 400% returns) - is that the largest "wealthy" owner of sharkfund0 is jl777 himself. The largest holder after his fund are:
 NXT-G9WM-6HNW-FMF2-6T8M2 @ 12.5%. Though this account holds most of the jl777 assets only, I still refrained from making a wild guess and saying this was his too
NXT-3R28-ZBCB-E8GT-C34JC - @ 10%

rounding up more than 85% of the issue. So I am still finding the whole "largest owenrs" of nxt part unbelievable.

You know, again in the realm of "agree to disagree", it could also mean that NXT AE is full of shitty assets no one wants to hold. Anyone wanting to utilise AE needs to depend on jl777's asset. Something like cryptsy on cryptostocks.com  

Edit: Anways I am tired of debating this out with you. But if you think reputation and "not showing any signs" is good enough, do read up on Allen Stanford - his name was synomous with Standford university even when he was not associated with it.

[supranetico]

Do I agree with OP's conjecture? No. I don't think it follows from the evidence he presented. Even on as loose speculation it doesn't hold up because OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP.

You're right. I'm trying to get away from my former life as a pedant, but I still have enough pedant power to chip in here. To be more than, the OP's surmise (might as well call it that) requires - at a minimum - documentation of the complete trade records of said assets plus either a well-reasoned argument or a standard algo that demonstrates why the trading pattern of these assets - over their lifetime of they being traded - is suspicious.

And that would require a lotta work plus some hard research & thinking. Frankly, I'm not going to blame the OP for punting away all the work it would require; he has a life and it's plainly unreasonable to expect him to put in a lot of work for free. Suffice it to say that I'm at least vaguely aware of the pitfalls and hidden responsibilities awaiting anyone who tries to play securities regulator on the Internet. The SEC's job is actually much more straightforward because the stock market is aged and there's many terabytes' worth of trade records that can be used to infer a reasonably tight set of statistical quirks that indicate malfeasance.

As of now - I'm guessing here - the total number of trades of all Nxt assets doesn't comprise a large enough statistical universe from which to draw reasonably solid inferences about trading patterns that clearly indicate something on the sly has taken place. So instead, and thanks to the time pressures we all have, we have to fly on opinion, supposition, conjecture and - yes - surmise. When flying blind's all you can do, you fly blind if you must. Or, you don't fly at all and learn to live with being ground-bound.

DISCLOSURE: I own 100 TOKENs, but it's far from the majority of my portfolio.

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

[Nxtblg]

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

Water under the digital bridge.

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

Let me be more precise - this time briefly. All you have at this point is evidence that there's cross-ownership. In and of itself, all you've shown is that James' assets are indistinguishable from a collection that in part serves as a set of holding companies. Holding companies are 100% legitimate in the outside world, and have been so for ~ a century if not more.

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing. Hence my admittedly strict use of the word "surmise."

But before I go, I did compose that "unreasonable" part as a disguised warning to you. There are some people around here that are demanding, and you might find yourself feeling obliged to work a lot for free without quite knowing why. "Know When To Draw The Line." 

[Este Nuno]

Maybe I missing something but I don't really see how the amount of shares issued in an asset like sharkfund0 really matters. The assets are listed to raise capital that gets invested back in other currencies/assets that the fund manager decides are acceptable for the fund. At least that's the way I think it operates, I'm not an expert on jl777 assets at all. But from my reading and learning about superNET and his assets I have never gotten the impression that he's attempting to deceive or hide information from people regarding them. That's where me and you differ I think, you seem to think that he's intentionally attempting to deceive potential investors about the nature of his assets.

I can only say Huh? and offer you something like this. Say ethereum team offers 10million coin for sale (ethereum cause they call themselves DACs rather than coins), out of which only 1.4million is sold. And it is such that, 0.532 million of coins is held by Vitalik. Now tell me what is wrong with the picture? (hint distribution)

I for one having been saying that its fine if you want to invest in Supernet ie"agree to disagree". But you kept piling on "op doesn't understand" or "what proof you have of a pump?" whereas it was already stated. So thankfully, that got through you that I am fine with you not agreeing but please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts.

Except that Ethereum is not an investment fund that uses capital raised to invest on behalf of shareholders where as sharkfund0 is as far as I know. Distribution of an investment fund?

If I created my own investment fund named fishfund0 tomorrow and issued 10000 shares at 1 BTC each and only ended up selling 20 shares then I would have 20 BTC in capital to invest with. And if 10 of those share were either bought by me or issued to me through the terms of the fund then it wouldn't make any difference what so ever in how the fund operates. 9980 outstanding shares or 100000. It's not a cryptocurrency or anything like Ether, or even XRP.

"please abstain from stating things emanating out of it as facts." I have no idea what you're referring to here and if you'd like to give me an example of me claiming something to be a fact that's not just my supposition, please do.

This is where I don't think you're understanding me. Before when I qualified the lines of code statement with "(his words)" you perceived that I meant that as some sort of praise towards him and thought that was some sort of statement of deference to him(your "jesus" comment before). I meant it to mean that I haven't independently checked that fact out at all so it should be taken with a grain of salt. I know how github works and I know how meaningless lines of code are as a metric which is why I was trying to convey the fact that he could simply be saying that as something that's 'technically true' but doesn't necessarily mean much.

With regards to Bitmark marking will be integrated in to superNET, but each marking adoption does all the marking transactions locally and then hashes them in to a merkle tree and records them in the Bitmark blockchain a specified times.

(ready for a shocker? I'm part of the Bitmark core team(not a dev yet though) and we decided not to join superNET, but superNET can still integrate marking as anyone can since it's free software and we will assist them in implementing it.)

Yes, BBR will have to be converted like you say. And that part of superNET does serve a similar function as ripple, but as you can see in my list it's quite a bit more than just a collection of gateways.

I try to be objective, but I also have come to like the idea behind superNET. Doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the truth.

Ok my bad on the comment then. Its difficult to read motives when you are throwing things like "op doesn't understand". Though I am scratching my head, whats so shocking about Bitmark not deciding to join and you being part of it? hm....you mean how I called you an unreliable "objective" observer? Read the first line of this para.

As for the long list, its basically gateway for crypto + fiat along with intergrated exchange (how many coins have that in their wallet?). Maybe bitmark's reputation system and privatebet will be something new. And what is that exactly worth? 10k BTC?

I thought you might be surprised that we decided not to join superNET considering you've been portraying me as a "kool aid drinker" this whole time.

The speculative value of superNET comes from the potential profits that are expected to be paid as dividends to shareholders. The intention is to become a portal for every user of crypto. To the point where people won't need to use any other wallet than the one they have that has the superNET GUI integrated in to it. If crypto continues to grow and superNET works out how it's intended to it's not too hard to imagine that having a share in a service such as this might be profitable. It's definitely risky like every thing in this space, and no one is making any guarantees.

Those are the relevant assets for the proposed deal.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that you've made people aware who were not aware that James holds significant portions of his own assets. It makes sense to me for someone operating a fund such as sharkfund0 or jl777hodl to own a large percentage of them in order to maximize your own profits and incentives.

I think it's somewhat obvious that James would own a large portion of his own assets, but if that's not obvious to people then that's fine. What you've done here is good information for anyone who was unware, but I think it could have been presented in a better manner.

Relevant assets for the proposed deal?

what you say now and said earlier are in clear conflict. First you say "OP was not aware that jl777 has been open about his asset ownership and the asset cross ownership and has not made any attempts to hide those facts. It's listed in the superNET OP." meaning jl777 has highligted all his dealings and people on his thread are aware of it that too in the thread op and I was in the wrong., now you say only what is relevant?

As I said, you flip flop so often its quite clear (IMO ) where your sympathy lies.

Lets say even if those are "relevant" actually do some maths and see if the calculations he gave hold up (now before you ask me for proof, for once be an objective observer and do some digging).

I don't understand what you're getting at here. You said specifically: "Where does it talk about him about sharkfund0 or jl777hodl's holding? No where."

He's putting in his assets, one of which include 4.46% ownership in jl777hodl. He owns the assets he's putting in. I don't see what sharkfund0 has to do with this exchange considering there's no purchase of shares as far I know. Only a transfer of asset between James and UNITY.

Where's the deception?

I don't think I flip flop. You've implied from the beginning that there has been some sort of intentional deception on James' part regarding his ownership in assets related to him. And you've also accused him of doing much worse than that based on absolutely nothing that implies any of the things you've accused. I've maintained from the beginning that I have not observed him to be deceptive at all in his communications regarding his assets. If you want to show me that I've been misreading or ignoring his posts feel free to show me where I'm wrong.

The wealthy individuals comment is just my perception based on a bit of reading on the NXT forum where people tend to speak of investing large amounts of NXT and BTC in these type of assets. I could be wrong, I don't know enough about the NXT community to say definitively, which is why I said there "seem to be". Just what it looks like from what I can tell.

I can be objective and still have opinions too, right? Based on all of my readings thus far and watching how he's handled manners related to money, I personally think it's unlikely that it's something he would do. Again, this is where we seem to differ because you've drawn completely different conclusions than I have and seem to think he's some sort of scam artist. Nothing we can do here but wait to see how things play out.

Yes you can be objective and have opinions but not present them as facts.

The whole wealthy thing is your perception, and if you follow the "facts" - the largest owners of sharkfund0 (again to rake this up, why I am mentioning this is because of the 400% returns) - is that the largest "wealthy" owner of sharkfund0 is jl777 himself. The largest holder after his fund are:
 NXT-G9WM-6HNW-FMF2-6T8M2 @ 12.5%. Though this account holds most of the jl777 assets only, I still refrained from making a wild guess and saying this was his too
NXT-3R28-ZBCB-E8GT-C34JC - @ 10%

rounding up more than 85% of the issue. So I am still finding the whole "largest owenrs" of nxt part unbelievable.

You know, again in the realm of "agree to disagree", it could also mean that NXT AE is full of shitty assets no one wants to hold. Anyone wanting to utilise AE needs to depend on jl777's asset. Something like cryptsy on cryptostocks.com  

Edit: Anways I am tired of debating this out with you. But if you think reputation and "not showing any signs" is good enough, do read up on Allen Stanford - his name was synomous with Standford university even when he was not associated with it.

Again, please show me where I've used language that implies that I presented that as a fact. I try to specifically make sure that I don't do such things, so if you have an example please quote it. In this instance I said "seem to", but you keep insisting that I presented that as a fact when I think should have been fairly obvious that I was just making an observation that is probably right based on the amount of money that gets invested in these assets, but isn't something that I would ever try to pass off as anything more than 'likely'. The "wealthy" part comes from the fact that there are many holders of large amounts of NXT in the NXT community and the market value of their NXT is often significant. You can claim that you think that James is the on who holds all those other accounts that hold significant percentages in sharkfund0 or any other asset, but from what I can tell there are real people in the NXT community who do actively invest in the AE(and presumable some of James' assets as well considering their market caps). Someone more involved with the NXT community can elaborate more on this perhaps.

[supranetico]

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

Water under the digital bridge.

Thank you

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

Let me be more precise - this time briefly. All you have at this point is evidence that there's cross-ownership. In and of itself, all you've shown is that James' assets are indistinguishable from a collection that in part serves as a set of holding companies. Holding companies are 100% legitimate in the outside world, and have been so for ~ a century if not more.

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing. Hence my admittedly strict use of the word "surmise."

But before I go, I did compose that "unreasonable" part as a disguised warning to you. There are some people around here that are demanding, and you might find yourself feeling obliged to work a lot for free without quite knowing why. "Know When To Draw The Line."  

Um, no, I have more than enough evidence and its all there in the op. They say "devil is in the details" and it would get an astute thinker to go through whats been presented and what I am getting at. I think the op already says something along the line that - "you might interpret what has been written in your own way. but if you need help get someone else to help you". most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

I like that you admit to the colored glasses but then in a similarly expressed opinion, I would say I am not pro or anti anyone, but then people find it difficult to believe as I am obviously spreading FUD (it is a newbie account right? so why bother).

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

[Este Nuno]

Really appreciate this post even though I even called you suspicious on the Simgate asset and jl777hodl having majority of them.

Water under the digital bridge.

Thank you

The evidence is clearly from the fact that cross asset holds in cases exceeds 50% which should be suspicious in itself but I guess we on BCT are so blind with "reputation only" that it requires empirical evidence from me and not from jl777.  It is at best a "surmised" explanation.

Let me be more precise - this time briefly. All you have at this point is evidence that there's cross-ownership. In and of itself, all you've shown is that James' assets are indistinguishable from a collection that in part serves as a set of holding companies. Holding companies are 100% legitimate in the outside world, and have been so for ~ a century if not more.

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing. Hence my admittedly strict use of the word "surmise."

But before I go, I did compose that "unreasonable" part as a disguised warning to you. There are some people around here that are demanding, and you might find yourself feeling obliged to work a lot for free without quite knowing why. "Know When To Draw The Line."  

Um, no, I have more than enough evidence and its all there in the op. They say "devil is in the details" and it would get an astute thinker to go through whats been presented and what I am getting at. I think the op already says something along the line that - "you might interpret what has been written in your own way. but if you need help get someone else to help you". most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

I like that you admit to the colored glasses but then in a similarly expressed opinion, I would say I am not pro or anti anyone, but then people find it difficult to believe as I am obviously spreading FUD (it is a newbie account right? so why bother).

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

I think NxtBlg said it best here:

Sorry, but to someone who uses Occam's Razor in my admittedly pro-James way you've only demonstrated that James has a liking for a complex cross-ownership structure whose assets are a hybrid between operating and holding. In my opinion, that's all you have. As for anything that would demonstrate shenanigans with respect to valuations, I saw nothing.

If you think the accusations that you've made logically follow from the evidence that you presented, even in a loose sense, then no one is going to convince you otherwise. Because if you go from the spreadsheet to thinking that James is literally running a long con scam in which he intends to bilk massive amounts of money from people who invest in his assets, then you're obviously deriving that based on the assumption that his intentions have been bad from the beginning.

Where as I've come to believe that it's fairly unlikely that his intentions are bad in anyway(and are likely to be good), based on how I've seen him conduct his business dealing thus far and how he's dealt with people in matters related to money. That's my opinion of him at the moment, subject to change if I observe him doing things that might conflict with my current judgement of him as a person.

As time goes on we will see what happens and how James acts in relation to his business dealings. At this point all eyes are on him now in the crypto community. Not just the NXT community. So I'm certain this will not be the last of people accusing him of doing wrong. Everyone will be watching, everything is recorded on public ledgers for all to see as you've shown here with your break down of the asset cross ownership. So far i'm unconvinced of any of the claims that multiple anonymous accounts have made against him thus far, but I'm watching just as everyone else will be.

[Nxtblg]

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

I just wanted to say, explicitly, that the warning didn't result from any bad experience here - you might say I came in "pre-burned"

most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

In your opinion. Really, that's all you have with respect to that unorthodox set of assets. It's fishy to you, but that's a value judgment on your part. My own value judgment is, "that's the man's style." Believe it or not, I actually spent a full day doing due-diligence on Supernet - and at the end I plunked down only half a Bitcoin!

Essentially, I'm trying to think like a lawyer (which I'm not) in a way that I hope proves to be to your benefit. You do stick out from the usual gang of critics because you're not bullheaded about what you write.

At least not to me...

[supranetico]

The only person, I actually engaged was Este Nuno, because he wanted "proofs", I even called him a moron for doing that. If he is happy with what is there in front of him and wants to invest, it was his prerogative. This has been repeated a large number of times. People who want details can dig and find out. I for one, frankly don't have the time to spoon feed the details. Hence giving up on replying to him. Hell I might even lock this thread for good cause there is no more discussion required. Anyone who wants to know more can do their own research.
Still thanks for the warning.

I just wanted to say, explicitly, that the warning didn't result from any bad experience here - you might say I came in "pre-burned"

Meh, I am not going to do the numbers for anyone who doesn't want to do it. shout as they may.  Frankly dont care cause its people's money to burn.
 

most of the assets from jl777 are holding companies and holding companies holding another companies holding another companies are fishy even in the real world - in a "ponzi" kind of way.

In your opinion. Really, that's all you have with respect to that unorthodox set of assets. It's fishy to you, but that's a value judgment on your part. My own value judgment is, "that's the man's style." Believe it or not, I actually spent a full day doing due-diligence on Supernet - and at the end I plunked down only half a Bitcoin!

Essentially, I'm trying to think like a lawyer (which I'm not) in a way that I hope proves to be to your benefit. You do stick out from the usual gang of critics because you're not bullheaded about what you write.

At least not to me...

I hope you do understand how holding companies are structured and supposed to work when you made the unorthodox holding comment. Not just a wiki page definition as to what they actually are. I remember jl777 giving a keiretsu comment and he was taken to the woodshed.

I have been quite clear with my intentions early on, people are free to not believe me and invest, convincing was never intention of this thread. The title set was - "Read before investing in SuperNet" not "Supernet is a scam, run run run!!". So I feel attempts by some supernet people unwarranted and concerning -- that alone is enough for me to not invest - aside from my concerns about jl777, I am not going to be part of any coin community which thinks shouting down a person trying to present a contararion view is the way to go about. Yes that means I have hardly got coins into which I invest in but I am happy with what I got.

[Nxtblg]

I have been quite clear with my intentions early on, people are free to not believe me and invest, convincing was never intention of this thread. The title set was - "Read before investing in SuperNet" not "Supernet is a scam, run run run!!". So I feel attempts by some supernet people unwarranted and concerning -- that alone is enough for me to not invest - aside from my concerns about jl777, I am not going to be part of any coin community which thinks shouting down a person trying to present a contararion view is the way to go about. Yes that means I have hardly got coins into which I invest in but I am happy with what I got.

Cool...but the people who are at least apparently shouting you down are "pre-burned" too. Sadly, the typical critic 'round here is someone who seems impervious to counter-arguments; that's why they're pegged as FUDsters and trolls. They're pegged that way because they act that way. And you were lumped in with the rest of them; that's the reason for the shouting. FYI if you're baffled. 

[supranetico]

I have been quite clear with my intentions early on, people are free to not believe me and invest, convincing was never intention of this thread. The title set was - "Read before investing in SuperNet" not "Supernet is a scam, run run run!!". So I feel attempts by some supernet people unwarranted and concerning -- that alone is enough for me to not invest - aside from my concerns about jl777, I am not going to be part of any coin community which thinks shouting down a person trying to present a contararion view is the way to go about. Yes that means I have hardly got coins into which I invest in but I am happy with what I got.

Cool...but the people who are at least apparently shouting you down are "pre-burned" too. Sadly, the typical critic 'round here is someone who seems impervious to counter-arguments; that's why they're pegged as FUDsters and trolls. They're pegged that way because they act that way. And you were lumped in with the rest of them; that's the reason for the shouting. FYI if you're baffled. 

Not really baffled, rather sad over the period of time. Normally there are ANN threads where I say something, people start FUD, FUD, FUD, and I keep my mouth shut and move on. Then there was winning proclamation that "oh, we chased the guy away!" and lot of chest thumping. I don't really mind it.

But this was not SuperNet ANN thread and neither this was not an all-out attack. I thought people would read properly and have better sense which obviously they dint, this was not something which went down well with me about Monero and now not with SuperNet.

In any case, nice discussion with you on this. Thanks.

[supranetico]

I was going to lock this thread but have decided against it.

Anyone wanting to crunch the numbers you can start with
1. "share of the total" is basically how much a particular price adds to the "holding company/asset total". Normally, value should reflect the constituents + a premium or a discount on the future prospect. Example - Nxtprivacy is priced at 9% discount over the holding, jl777hodl is at 8% premium, whereas sharkfund0 is at whopping 35% premium.


2. If you invest 10000 NXT into jl777 or sharkfund0, what will you finally buying and what cost? example - NXTPrivacy holds 40% cryptocard and 60% private bet, investing in NXTPrivacy and privatebet at 10% both means you buy 10% privatebet + how much more %age of privatebet + cyrptocard?

3. From above if the holding company pricing = constituent asset + premium or - discount, how would buying a constituent affect the asset price? or how would buying the asset affect the constituent price? Where does the money flow to?