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as in the title. im fairly sure I found a +EV method for a particular dice site, if someone like dooglus would pm me to confirm for this I would consider selling this bit of info to a few people. just being +EV goes not guarantee massive profits because this is gambling after all, but it is +EV. this does not involve martingale whatsoever.



tip address for me: 1PfR7yoo6ttNezCQd3NP5fcEhfGGrD456v
tip address for dooglus: 1JtD6uG43feZrUqgxTYsQAPTmgmq8hogCt

how is that possible  ??? that's insane
it's impossible to find a dice site that you can have +EV playing it
if this topic was for newbie then I will laugh a lot , but this is coming from a Hero Member  ???
damn I'm so curious to know what is this ( particular ) dice site
I won't buy it and I won't believe it unless I know the site

not going to give specifics, a vouch from dooglus especially should clear most doubts though.

is it from a popular dice site? if it is from unknown dice site then i will think that your method is because of flaw in the script

it's not an exploit of the site's script or anything. not going to even give leads as to what site it is though.

so you mean it is just a winning method? have you tried it for days or weeks now and got positive result?

I just finished about 3 months of binge dice at various sites (rollin.io, PD, JD, PRC, SD, and probably a few others).  I tried every strategy I could albeit with a fairly limited bank roll.  But that's the nice thing about 8 decimal points to the right is all the flexibility of 100's of millions of units.  So many times I thought I had something and so many times my simulator would come up a winner the first several times I ran it... even for hours and days.  But in the end, there was nothing reliable I could find.  Even strats that ran for days in the simulator could fail in just minutes on a live site.  I tried many variations of Martingale, D'alambert, Labouchere, Fibonacci, and personalized lists.  It was sort of fun and appealed to my methodical yet insidious nature.

But anyways... Of course I'm interested in a +EV method.  It would be invaluable but I doubt I could afford it.  Feel free to shoot me a PM or maybe we could work out some sort of a deal.  

there are no "for sure winning methods" in gambling, all I'm saying is that I know something that will give +EV, nothing more.


thanks for showing interest, I'm mostly waiting on a vouch from someone extremely trusted in the dice scene that'll give my words some credibility.

Well, variations of different strategies I tried did give better EV than others and I can definitely feel more confident in some of my fine tuned strategies compared to others.  Bet and bankroll management come into play.  Now that I understand better that your method is simply +EV and not necessarily a sure winning method I'm not as interested.  Sorry, but anytime I see someone post "+" I expect + with practically no risk of "-" but it doesn't sound like that's what you're selling.

I'm still interested but probably not to buy anything.  My offer is always open for PMs though if you want to compare notes.  

At the end of my binge and experiments, I was highly confident using a few strategies that I could come away with minor gains in short bursts but I'm sure that's no surprise to many here.  After my dice binge I'm just content to play some NL Hold 'em for a while but I'm sure the dice bug will bite me again in a few weeks.

what does +EV means ??? Positive expectation?

Does it involve any kind of exploit or something?

Here you go:  http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-an-Expected-Value

It's not an exploit, it's just a fair consideration of the eventual values given a large statistical basis of data.

Thank you.

But did OP made the calculation to proof his method is a winning one or he just got lots of fata, got profit and concluded his method has +EV?

What is the EV for your method?

I didn't do a calculation mostly because I didn't want to do any math today, but it is +EV, that I'm fairly sure of.

I'm constantly calculating.  Frankly, this was my first consideration of +EV and had no idea of calculating it.  So I hate reading.  But I read about 1/3 of that page I linked and boom: calculations are flowing in my head.  So guess what I'm doing now, subSTRATA?  That's right, back at the simulator!  And... It's very interesting with the calc ideas I got from EV consideration and what that page had to say... In my very first sim run with a .1 bank I was up .04 at 17K bets before crashing out and losing about half the bank roll.     /sigh  /smh  ... back to the drawing board.

edit:  but that's the thing to remember here... If you can wipe out your bankroll in 17K rolls it's just as likely that you could wipe it out before even hitting .01 profit in just 1K rols.  You'd have to run the sims over and over again to find what "EV" looks appealing but even then when you go to gamble... it's in god's hands.

What does "+EV" mean?  As for how much I would pay, probably as much as I could afford to pay if it was impossible to lose with.  The only risk then would be that the dice site you were playing on didn't pay out, which, I doubt you would run into unless you were stupid enough to build up like a 2,3 BTC bankroll. 

this is gambling, I'm not giving any assurances on winning, nor will I ever claim to. as stated before, I just know a way to get +EV, nothing more, nothing less.

and I didn't do an exact calculation, because that involves effort, which is scarce this late at night, but it is +EV.

Is your method something like playing lots of 0.000001 bets on fortunejack for the jackpot or by playing lots of bets on Dadice for the jackpot and special prize of the 500,000,000th bet?

no. it doesn't involve any sort of bonus or jackpot in any way. it's actually relatively simple.

I do hope dooglus vouch for this but all I know that it is impossible to have +EV. A good strategy will get you near to zero EV  not make them +EV . Also that this is not clear, you mentioned that it works on a particular dice sites . It should works on any dice sites that have the same house edge since they are not different

Hmm interesting. One more question, with more people knowing the method (since you mentioned you want to sell it to a few persons), will it become less or even no longer effective?

it's not some betting strategy like Martingale, it's just that on this particular site, it is possible to get an edge.

Gonna wait for a vouch on this and see where it goes.. It sounds kinda impossible but let's see. :)

can't say, it depends on how far those select few are willing to abuse this, along with if they win or not. again, just having an edge doesn't guarantee bags of money growing on trees or anything.

What the gentlemen is claiming is he has a way so instead of a 1% -EV game you're looking at, that you would have a mathmatical edge on your bets. While I would be extremely apprehensive about this, I would love to hear the actuarial calculations behind this being actually a +EV proposition.

I will keep it between me and the OP if he chooses, and while I wouldn't discuss his strategy (that's up to him) I would relay if his +EV claim is valid or not.

It is now in his court.

no offense, but I'm not giving this out to anyone just because they promise not to tell. also, you being just a full member, people might accuse a shill account or something. that's why I'm waiting for someone like dooglus or stunna to offer a vouch.

If there's a house edge it can't be EV+. It just can't.

Maybe you are just having a lucky period. This is all I can think of.

I don't think Stunna will bother to verify your claims unless the dice site you are speaking about is PD.

And I don't know if Dooglus is too much active right now, and I don't know how sharp are his mathematical skills.

There is no way to get an edge. You could always lower it close to zero . Strategy or what do you call this but you have claim that this is not about getting bonus or strategy as well so there could be only 1 possibility for this, investing on the site ? However I dont think that it is this.

Have you contacted dooglus for a vouch yet for this? I will believe this only if he vouch you

I'll send him a pm.

edit: sent, seems hes online so now we wait.

Tons of other people have come to think that their method is +EV , but its impossible to have one unless there is an exploit. If there existed any such method all the casinos would have shut down by now.
But since you say a particular dice site, do you mean by an exploit ? As the factors which would make you think that would be max bet size and lowest bet possible on the site or a zero or negative house edge. There is no other different way to beat the house.

It's not impossible at all. DaDice for instance has a jackpot that pays out 20 million satoshis for a 1 satoshi bet, and hits about 1 in 4 million rolls. That's massively +EV (except that the jackpot isn't at all provably fair, and it is really easy for them to cheat).

subSTRATA, if you want to PM me the details I'd be happy to check it out and confirm or deny. If you did find a problem I hope you would offer it to the site itself for a reasonable price first.

Edit:
But +EV is really all you need. Play long enough, apply proper bankroll management and you will win.

(Assuming of course that it really *is* +EV).

There's always luck involved and so it's possible to have short term losses. Think of counting cards at blackjack for instance. It's possible to have long losing sessions, but the odds are in your favour if you do it right, and so you will eventually end up ahead.

Edit2: Lots of people are saying it's not possible to find a +EV strategy. I wouldn't be so sure. There can be all kinds of problems with the implementation of a dice game. PRC dice used to roll high numbers more often than low numbers due to a bug, and so it was possible to have a +EV game just by rolling 'hi' every time. I can imagine a game where your payout is rounded up to the nearest satoshi rather than down, such that a 60% bet ends up paying 2x for small bets. That would be +EV. And so on.

+EV means "positive expected value", and basically just means that the odds are in your favour rather than against you.

But that will only be the case with sites which have a fault in them and the person is exploiting that flaw. The method on its own wouldn't be +EV , and since substrata already mentioned that it doesn't involve taking advantage of a flaw, we can rule that out.

Right, and he also said it doesn't involve a jackpot. Sometimes jackpots can be +EV for the player - maybe it's being paid out of the site's pocket as a promotion, or maybe it's a progressive pot that fills over time from other players making losing bets.

But if there's no flaw and no jackpot then I don't see where the +EV is going to come from.

Yes.
By the way he did say he sent you a PM .

+EV create a thread and respond to every post singly  :P That aside I would be interested of course as most would be but I'll wait for dooglus to see whats up, if it really is and the site in question does not accept paying you for it then I will make an offer for sure.

Also he claimed that this is not a betting strategy so I can only think of one thing and that is exploit or found a flaw in a website. Also that he keep on saying in this particular website so it is something like a flaw on the website.




I would pay handsomely as well if dooglus acknowledge it and the site doesnt pay you a good amount. I wonder what this particular website is, must be some sort of not so popular website

If its not an exploit, does it mean that you are confident about site owners knowing about, and wont be 'fixing' it upon noticing?

Considering you're willing to sell the method it doesn't seem as highly profitable as the buyer might think since otherwise you would just use the method on you're own.

I am in great shocked to hear this one :o you are going the sell your secret just for few satoshis, you can make bankrupt to any dice site with your 101% guaranteed win win formula but honestly i dont believe in your words and i will advice people to stay away from this thread if they are thinking to pay for this ancient technique.  :D ;D

are you sure about this 100% winning strategy on dice sites where the house edge exists ;) it is much hard to defeat the site bankroll with any strategy at dice site because only luck is the secret strategy to win for a timely period but in long run you will lose all your profit with your original amount too.

If it's really that +EV then make 50 btc, then come here and share a 10 btc wealth to us. You won't even need to sell the method.

Erm I can give it for free.Go to www.coinbet.ag (http://www.coinbet.ag) create an account reach at least Gold 2 level and after that you will get a 1.1% loss back and a 0.11% bet back I haven't made the calculations on this level but I am pretty sure it's +EV on master rank(at least from my 2 second calculations).

OP sounds like the sellers of e-books detailing the acquisition of free money 8)

c'mon Wen, give OP a break, he needs the cash to invest in a project that he has with a caribbean government department to supply green energy

After having read the dooglus posts it seems that you really have something but I would wait to see what dooglus says after checking it.If he says it is really +EV then it will not be bad deal so far.It might be some bug what you have discovered but better wait and see some positive feedback.

Not sure but seems the site he mentions dadice could still be rigging it. So a method along that lines might not be that worthy .

its ok

the world is not ending

i am awake and have pmed dooglus.

back to sleep for me

I don't like the sound of this, seems like foul play to me. Like dooglus said I definitely think you should inform the site first before you start trying to sell it to people on here. The site will have a lot to lose if this is genuine so they're likely to offer a lot more as they'll see it as some kind of bounty. I guess they'd pay handsomely for you to keep quiet about it so it gives them chance to fix or remove it.
Please don't be vindictive & attempt to ruin whatever site it is.

I'm not promising any wins or free money, just something that allows an edge.

No, it is impossible imo, I have won over 10btc from dice site, but I know i will lose all in the long term, so I decided to quit it, and keep the profits, that's the best choice, but you said +EV is possible, I don't think so cos the house has 1% edge, so they can earn lots of money in the long term if the wager amount is huge, it is easy for casinos get +EV, but impossible for us. That's the truth.

IMO you just got lucky so u think it is +EV method, but I said I have won 10btc from dice site, but is is also +EV right? But in the end all +EV methods will be -EV, and lost ALL. ;D

i will likely be informing the site with dooglus' confirmation, people here are way too skeptical and angry, more so angry.

i just said above im likely going to just tell the site with dooglus's confirmation. I have no patience to put this to work and people here are way too angry and calling me a "free money making guide" seller of some sort.

I'm more skeptical, I'm about as laid back a person as you'll ever meet so I'm certainly not angry. Apologies if I offended you, I didn't mean to. I was just saying the site will probably shit themselves if this is true & they'll pay you not to reveal it to anybody else :)
Have you used it to make money on their site yourself ;)

Calm down guys! subSTRATA mentioned very early in this thread that he want his 'strategy', or +EV method (however you like to call it) to be checked by an independent and trusted person. So he asked dooglus and dooglus agreed to have a look. subSTRATA also agreed to get in touch with the site's administration first. So he can't be more fair.

Now lets relax and wait for dooglus' findings. Hopefully nothing is wrong with my lil' site :D

I hope nothing's wrong with mine. This post scared me.

its not an exploit of any sort; I don't care enough to go around poking into sites' security or provably fair systems. its just something that stood out to me on a particular site. dooglus is most likely sleeping, so nothing to do but wait.

For me it's something that would cover a short time strategy, like my one that worked great for a couple of months then I tried to do it for a couple of investors and successfully done it, then I'm glady satisfied with that, and I stopped for the glory.

You guys are really clueless as to which site he is talking about and I know for a fact that it is VERY easy to get +EV there. Sub, you havent found anything special to be honest.

ive said before its something incredibly simple and just stood out to me the moment i saw it; im expecting people to be incredibly disappointed at how simple this is, if they find out.

It depends on the type of +EV method you are selling but most likely it is not worth to pay for it.
If it is about abusing bonuses, then it is illegal and not worth to pay for it.
If it is some loophole on a dice site, you would have exploited it to earn lots of btc. Why would you share with us?

So if we are all so clueless, please let us know what you are talking about.

Thanks in advance!

Just use your brains here -- if this method is profitable, OP will be using it instead of trying to sell it.

This method *may* be +EV, but it might have incredibly high variance. Or it might only work for very small amounts. Or it might require huge amounts. Whatever it is, it is not profitable or valueable, because if it was OP would be using it.

the comment wasn't directed at you, but people are starting to be antagonizing/insulting towards me just yelling "no its impossible 100% your lying haha no martingale is -EV lolololol" and stuff like that.


because its gambling, and no one said anything about abusing bonuses, in fact i already stated it doesnt involve any of this. its just something I see to get an edge, and im not risking all my money just for an edge. people are failing to understand that this is gambling, and im not selling any sort of "LOL FREE MONEY LOOK LOOK!!!" or BS like that. people are actually starting to leave neutral feedback in negative context regarding this issue.

people are still failing to understand that this isnt some martingale or labouchere or whatever positive progression strategy, its just getting an edge.

Well, that is a common threat, I can tell you..... The entire trust system is useless.

i realize that, i just find it hilarious when people say "caution!!!11111 use escrow and caution when dealing with this user!1!1" when I literally havent done anything yet. In fact I've gone out of my way to request a vouch from dooglus to gain credibility for this claim that im not even 110% sure of. people are too quick to point fingers and slow to read that im not selling some sort of strategy. im going to send you a quick pm by the way. NOTHING TO DO WITH DADICE'S SITE LETS NOT START ANOTHER WITCH HUNT

Sure I will check, thank you!

I wont say the site/sites that you can do this on for the sake of Sub. The one hint I'm going to give is "stupidly low house edge".
EDIT: The hell are people leaving neutral feedback on sub for btw. He isnt doing anything wrong.

exactly, i havent done anything yet; in fact im withholding all possible info so that I can protect the site from imminent abuse.

I finally get the idea of this. Is this particular site is bustabit or tothemoon? Because with the bonus thing, it is easy to have a +EV for you but as always it wont work because you may crash before you cashed out.


This is what this trust system is. People can leave anything that they want and also that there is a slogan that innocent until proven guilty  is not a thing here because it is guilty until proven innocent

I'll let sub answer that, however it is very easy to get +EV on those 2 sites. Hell, might even be some public strategy that give you that.

well i have done the whole pm exchange with dadice, their response is coming, and as a dice site owner, hopefully their input will matter.

I am glad that the OP shared some information with me.

1. He did not mention the site, so I don't have a clue which site he is talking about.
2. I couldn't try myself, since I don't know the site.
3. He did however gave me some basic examples of bets, and if that is a fact, I would suggest that there is actually a flaw and +EV is possible.

Dooglus is aware of the site's URL and will for sure in the next couple of hours check it out and shed some light on it here.

If it is a flaw / bug then Sub will get a huge reward for that and with dooglus vouch then it will be great. If the site owner dont reward sub handsomely then I bet people will buy this from sub and burn the house.


Well I just noticed that title is DICE sites so it may not be possible that it is bustabit or tothemoon. I could not think of any site around here that has some flaw in their system

Alright, it seems it is not bustabit/ttm. That wasnt my original guess but it is a good candidate. However it does say "dice" in the title.

Well, I would suggest that means any site that is offering some kind of Dice games. Bustabit, which is a great site, is not. I can confirm this also on the examples given to me. So we can exclude Bustabit.

i mean, i did put "dice" in the title for a reason, I honestly dont know why bustabit/ttm was even suggested. its straight up dice, high/low.

It was mentioned because it is extremely simple to get +EV there. So it would fit the "+EV method" part.

Im not sure what you mean, if it really was so easy to get +EV there with only 1 person and seems like a few know about it that site would go down pretty quickly, using the kelly betting formula would pretty much guarantee you the win

lmao, I am very hilarious to see your new trust!!!@ "claims to have a +EV strategy he wants to sell for a certain casino he's not going to name. no proof yet, be very cautious dealing with this one, guys!"

;D :D  Although it is a neutral one, it still funny cos you didn't sell anything, lmao. I am pretty sure if you sell this method and some people will give you neg feedback if your method won't be working.

Just to be clear, having +EV strategy (if it is real) doesnt mean that you will be rich overnight. It takes some times and combined with a decent bankroll and proper financial management then in a long term you could get a profit from this , considering that the "dice site" hasnt find out about this yet .
The same thing as running gambling sites which has +EV and there isnt any gambling sites operator that become rich in a single nights . +EV is just some kind of "guarantee" that you will be in profit in long term though

---

The neutral feedback is probably just as a precautions. As I've read the previous posts, it seems like dooglus is doing what his best of regarding the so called +EV strategy. Once Dooglus clarify on this matter, Im sure Shitaifan will remove the feedback.

This rating is probably due to the title,


The word "how much would you pay" is kinda missleading if you hadnt read the whole content that Substrata is actually asking dooglus to check on it first

true, might have been a miswording on my part, which may have led to some misunderstandings, just couldnt find a better word at that time. i won't change it now, since a lot has been discussed on this already; just going to wait on dooglus just as I expect a lot of others are doing as well, especially after dadice backed my claim.

If I were you op, I would have exploited the flaw and only after I earn some serious btc I would have created that thread. And I didn't. ;)

So it seems there is some kind of bug at a dice site which makes you +EV as i understand from the dooglus words, i will also wait to hear from dooglus about this strategy how is that effective in long term gambling.

I am interested to see what the O.P. has found.  If it's not an error with the site or a hack I am interested.  Keep us updated OP when your ready to release what you found.

A "flaw" in this case is not the kinda "flaw" that was used by hufflepuff that could grant you ten or hundreds of BTC instantly and ensure you will win and become rich overnight ( it seems some people are getting the wrong idea about +EV )

It is a flaw that makes you have the +EV which means that it wont make you rich overnight and also unless you have a bankroll and proper management to use this, it wont work . You could suffer some losses before profit and time is the guarantee that you will get profit if you play it well.


If it is truly a strategy that will give you +EV then there is no doubt in the long term you will be getting profit. To put it simpler, imagine yourself that you own a gambling sites ( that means you have +EV ) .In one night timeframe, you cant be a rich man but in the long term you will get some profit eventually

+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1

people here seem to think that +EV means becoming the next hufflepuff, completely agree. people here think that "lolwhy is he selling this is he can become hufflepuff!!!! lol!!!!"
there's your answer; I dont have the patience nor the resources to dedicate to this,  in addition, this is gambling of all things, profit is not 100% guaranteed.

Anybody care to elaborate on the 'hufflepuff' story? I've been investing in BTC for around 18 months & on bitcointalk.org for nearly a year but I've only been active in the gambling section for 3-4 months.
What's the story on hufflepuff, I've seen things mentioned before but never got the full story?

heres the link to the story that was just released: https://medium.com/@Stunna/breaking-the-house-63f1021a3e6d

basically, hufflepuff found a way to cheat the provably fair system and managed to walk away with 2000+ btc from primedice.

Just reading about it right now, absolutely terrible. He walked away with 1 million USD (at the time) worth of bitcoin.
Unbelievable. He then returned with another account & tried it again but only managed to get away with 50-60 coins.
That sucks to be honest, I presume because of the nature of bitcoin & his anonymity no legal proceedings were able to be taken. Sorry for going off topic, awful story though.

But if enough people know the trick and with enough days the casino will go broke pretty fast, as i said only if few people know it and they are using it against the casino and it seems that a good amount of people know it

I understand some people simply don't know what that means.
But I am not one of them. There has been a misunderstanding.
From what I understand it is like reversed house edge.
So in the long run the house looses. But could you earn some serious btc with this?

There is also no guarantee on how long this strategy will hold ( if it is indeed a +EV strategy ). Basically this thread is kinda an alert trigger with its title


Most dice sites around here will probably be triggered by this alarm just by reading on the title and once they figured it out then this "flaw" will be fix and it wont be a +EV strategy anymore. So the decision to sell it is the best option however notifying the site owner after dooglus verify your claim will get you a bounty as well I supose


Sadly some people are keep getting on the wrong idea about such "basic" things in gambling such like provably fair , +EV and the other things. Might be great if someone could make an EDU thread which contain complete list about such things .
Therefore most people can stop getting into delusion that the site is rigged if they lost after having a 20 + red streak on 49.5 % and that +EV is the "thing" that will make you into the next hufflepuff

---

Yes and Yes. I have answered this, in a long run you could get a profit (just imagine yourself having a gambling site, thats all )

potentially, yes. in theory, the math says you should be able to dump the house's bankroll because it is +EV of course, I would much rather tell the site and claim a reasonable bounty rather than sell it off to one or two people, unless those one or two people manage to offer a price high enough to buy off my morals. in addition, if the site decides to remedy this flaw, those one or two people would likely become rather angry at me, which is something id rather not have, even though it is something that I cannot be responsible for.

Then contact the site directly instead of posting a thread about it?

that wasnt the intention at the very beginning, but it is now. I've said it multiple times before in the thread, I will be contacting the site after dooglus's confirmation.

I just confirmed that the site in question does offer +EV bets for the player. In the worst case the edge is 30% for the player.

I fully expect the site to fix this when subSTRATA tells them about it.

there you go. I will be contacting the site about this asap when dooglus give then green light. panic ensues as dice site owners await a pm

And to give him a huge bounty. 30 % house edge for player is no joke at all, I wonder why only substrata notice this if there is 30 % house edge for players, all players playing there should have notice this as well. Is the details for this +EV strategy will be release later after the site fix it? I am curious to know how substrata notice this as well

this info will be released after the issue is fixed, pm's are still going on with dooglus regarding this. as for how i noticed it, you just have to use your head, all i can say.

Other player may have notice this as well and pretend they dont know anything about this and keep playing there like nothing happened. With 30 % house edge, player will get higher chance to win so it could be that they keep silent about this or they dont notice this because they keep on winning there

Congratulations!  Seriously.  As all the detractors pointed out, this is tough to find and you would think site operators would be more careful.

I liked the way you handled it and it was nice of dooglus to both vouch for it as well as lay out how often minor oversights like rounding can easily lead to a positive expected value situation for the player.

Good Luck!

thanks, rather than draining the entire site's bankroll, im deciding to take the moral route for now, unless an offer for 5 BTC shows up in my inbox within the next hour ::) dooglus also pointed out something; in the case the site decides not to pay me or such, there are plenty of pm's between me and dooglus proving the existence of this exploit, and if they choose not to pay, i doubt the site would ever be trusted if that evidence were ever to be posted in this thread.
ill be contacting the site's admins in a few hours when i am at a better location (home) unless something comes up.

locking until further news to prevent "omg tell me" spam.

I just discovered that I made an error verifying the +EV play.

It isn't a 30% edge for the player in the worst case.

It's a 32.26% edge for the player.

the admin of the site seems rather hostile and is trying to rip both me and dooglus off, demanding a lower bounty for the deal, i am entertaining offers in this thread or through pm regarding this. a percentage of this will be paid to dooglus for his help in confirming this issue.

kind of like blackmail? they don't pay up so you sell the exploit?

"heres my price take it or leave it lolol fk off" is basically the tone im getting from this guy. he seems rather hostile, which is dissuading me from helping his site out, which i believe the price I asked for for two very serious bugs was completely reasonable.

how large is this site? How much is the max win?

What if they found about it and got fixed it ASAP then the method will become pointless/useless this may cause a problem in your part Subtrata.

thats true, but judging from his hostility the admin is hes scrambling to find it and panicking. ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus. the implications of the second bug will not be disclosed for obvious reasons, but given the severity of these bugs, id think the price offered was completely reasonable. im fine with accepting the offer given, but that's not up to me; dooglus holds the details regarding the second bug ad i believe he has gone to sleep for the time being. until then, this is up for grabs. if dooglus is fine with accepting the proposed deal, so am i, but after this, i really have a negative impression of the site's admin in regards to professionalism and trust.
until dooglus gives me word that he is fine with this, its up for discussion, but either way, i will be giving dooglus a percentage share of the bounty for his immense help with this issue.

im not heartless; im not going to give any details as to what the site is.

I heard this awesome news +EV is possible and this is very serious kind of bug but i would like to know more details about this bug how long it will take time to get in profit if someone get starting at any dice site from big bankroll.

32+% edge in favor of the player is no joke. and i mean really, thats pretty serious; thats like getting a 2x bet on a roll higher than 34 or lower than 66. i personally think something like this is worth far more than just 1 BTC. its not something that noticeable from the back end either, no doubt the admin is now monitoring this thread and everything i say ::)

as for details, its gambling after all, profit is to be expected but it all depends on bankroll management and how much resources youre willing to dedicate to abusing this.

even if this is somehow found and patched, its no loss to me; this isnt something i expected to find, and its not like i had anything to lose in the first place. if anything, ill take it as a lesson that these exploits are out there, even with all these improvements to dice scripts, and ill take it on myself to maybe find more of these such bugs and help out their casino owners.

And the site owner is sweating his pants off for finding himself the bug.. 32% it's quite big!

You already have a clue, a site that can't pay up 1-.5BTC offer lol..  IMO subtrata's offer is generous if this were from a professional site they could pay him alot more for finding it.

you expect people to give you offers. if its a casino with a max win of 0.01btc then good luck getting 5btc for this

judging from the language used, the admin of the site completely distrusts me and dooglus at the moment (lol), and im thinking that its more that the admin is unwilling to pay rather than being unable to judging from the language he used.

We are pretty confident in our code. We log many different hack attempts every day.

Exploit it please, and earn 1 btc. When you do we are willing to pay you 1.5btc extra to tell us about it. We are tired of this lame scam attempts. We get mails of exploits weekly, but no one proved or steal anything. Only reason why we offered you any amount is because you have others users backing you up.

the max win is a lot more than that. its possible to get a lot more than 5 BTC potentially.

if you dont believe dooglus's words, then i honestly think you guys are extremely cocky, we have confirmed that it is possible to get an edge playing on the site. I was trying to keep your guys's identity hidden, but you up and came out with it yourself, let the free-for all begin i guess.

As I said if it is serious bug worth any money, then you can get a lot more. If it isn't serious then we won't waste any money on it. When you earn 1 btc with it we can make a deal and pay you 1.5 btc as you asked. Till then we are not interested in it.

Lol. Foolish remark on Crypto-Games' side. A bug or an exploit shouldn't be taken lightly, especially when it involves money.

@subSTRATA make it rain when you prove this cocky admin wrong ;)

Yeah make that 1 btc you got rain. When you do, we'll talk with you further. Till then good luck.

ill consider that as an invitation for me and dooglus, we'll start when hes awake.

I agree because even the almighty PD were a user was able to exploit their system but for now its time to grab some popcorns and watch how this goes :D

I am not even sure that I would trust the site to pay out large wins that a +EV strategy would result in. The site is very new, has a tiny bankroll, and is acting very unprofessionally.

Yeah maybe grab something bigger, as its gonna take a long time I guess ;)

big point here; even if they decide to pay out, their decisions in handling this entire matter were questionable at best, announcing their site as the subject of this thread was probably the biggest mistake, this is a lose-lose situation for them now.

Yeah, and it's not only them at risk, but also investor's money.
Them being "confident" is totally going to bring a lot of people down.

Time to take a couple of last looks at the site lol.

great point, after this, their site is dead regardless of the outcome. inviting people to come and dump your bankroll and not even consulting with your investors? that's some special publicity right there.

How do you know we didn't notify our investors? Did you ask them? We have notified every single investor on site. They have chance to withdraw their funds any time they want.

in my opinion, before pulling this sort of stunt you should notify your investors ahead of time and give them time to process their withdrawals, just go and pull the trigger and invite people to dump their investments. judging from the timeframe between the messages and the announcement you made, your investors had little to no time to make a decision regarding the matter.

Not sure if you understand how our system works. But one thing is sure, investors have priority before players. And almost all of our funds are on cold wallets. So all will receive their funds if they want to withdraw it.

thats good then, at least you ensure the safety of your investors' funds.

I actually found the exploit too lol.
seems everyone did. except the admin HAHA

So what you are saying is that if a player were to win with this strategy, that you would not pay out the player?

The fact that you have investors means that you need to act in their best interest. Not paying out a measly 1 btc bug bounty for something that you are most likely responsible for only shows how bad of an idea it is to invest at your site.

youre free to think what you want; but i didnt try and exploit it in any way after seeing it. i honestly tried to help the admin out but he dissuaded me from doing so. anyways, this has escalated into a rather interesting event.

Judging from your words, it seems you are losing confident yourself with your code . Basically if you are confident enough, you wouldnt even invite people to "exploit it" . Also if substrata decided to exploit it, you will know whats the exploit is by checking on the log and fix them yourself without the need to pay him the bounty


Dooglus never speak ill of a gambling sites without proper calculations . If he says there is an exploit at your site then there is, take his words and fix your site rather bashing through this thread because it is a harm to your business if you dont . The lost for you will be much more if you dont take his advice

P.S : Im fairly confident that the number of people rolling in your site might be 2x more than the usual number . With all of them trying to find how to get the +EV

We said we would pay you 1 btc and no more. But you didn't want to talk about it. So we have decided we won't talk with you either. We will have to wait for you to start earning "serious money", then we will fix it. But as you can read in terms, every exploit or bug should be reported and abuses are not allowed. If we see you abuse it you will stay without your funds.

It is your bad that you didn't want 1 btc, not ours.

and it is also your problem that you practically killed off your own site. you just publicly stated that you will not pay out, right there. say good bye to crypto-games.net.

Really, I don't see anyone exploiting anything, and all works fine for me. Not sure what you are talking about ;)

To be clear, I have had no prior communications with you in the past. I do not see that anywhere in your terms on your website.

If someone were to exploit/employ the +EV strategy on your site, then it would appear that they are simply getting lucky. Also there would be nothing that would stop someone from making small amounts of money across multiple accounts so they would each be under the radar.

Based on posts in this thread, it looks like the OP was offered a total of .5 BTC for his disclosure.

there were 2 bugs, 1 for the +EV bug and a second bug that dooglus found that would allow for players to manipulate some bet data to exceed that parameters set by the site, which i thought 1.5 BTC in total would be more than fair for the disclosure and explanation of these, but upon hearing of the second bug, the admin started getting rather hostile in tone and dissuaded me from accepting any sort of deal.

Well, the EV Bug was so easy to find that it was revealed by a player.
Still watching this thing though.

so it would seem, it really wasnt that hard to see honestly, was more so wondering why that was even there in the first place. im expecting that to be fixed rather quickly, which is good for their script, but as for their publicity, thats rather questionable.

yup, it took him minutes to find it lol..


Sure you are and now there are many bugs to find :)

It seems like he is too proud with his site and the code while in fact is that this site is barely touched or known around here . With his statement here, he is digging his own graveyard for his site because +30 % means a bad things for his investor as well .
On the other note, he keeps on luring you to "exploit" the site which means that he will log through your games and finds out how you did them. This is such a cheap way to not pay the bounty


Regarding the bolded part, it seems like he is always hostile in tone even to his player ( which is something that a site owner shouldnt do )

if i were in his position, i would be scouring the code line for line at this moment; as i mentioned before in the thread, there is another bug that dooglus found (all credit goes to dooglus on this one) that allows a player to manipulate their bet to exceed the parameters given by the client. this is all client-side. that alone should be a gigantic red alarm for any developer, especially one that is "confident in their code."

Was the EV bug leaked? If so then what was it? If not then don't leak it.

Eh, when owners listen to the users only when they want to be too honest.
I bet if the user was an uncorrect and used the ev+ method just for personal profit the owner would just pay.
Now that even the owner knows the problem, is in hurry to fix it 8)
If I only was smart enough to bug find on sites... i would be rich :P

it was a simple rounding error; the site's client allowed the player to choose a multiplier up to 6500x, every number inclusive. however, their % win chance was rounded to the hundredth place (decimal), allowing for a 0.02% win chance on a 6500x roll, when the correct multiplier for such a roll should be around 5000. this is the worse case scenario allowing for a 30% edge, but as dooglus pointed out above, the second bug allows for even more of an edge.

Ok we found issue and it was small bug, nothing to make you rich in a few hours or smth.... ;)

We will give 1 BTC as someone reported it on chat. But if you can't decide who gets reward, we will split that BTC to all involved...

heres how bad it is, credit goes to dooglus for compiling this:

multiplier, win chance, edge

6613x  0.02% 32.26%
3968x  0.03% 19.04%
2834x  0.04% 13.36%
2204x  0.05% 10.20%
1803x  0.06%  8.18%
1526x  0.07%  6.82%
1322x  0.08%  5.76%
1167x  0.09%  5.03%
1044x  0.10%  4.40%
 944x  0.11%  3.84%
 862x  0.12%  3.44%
 793x  0.13%  3.09%
 734x  0.14%  2.76%
 684x  0.15%  2.60%
 640x  0.16%  2.40%
 601x  0.17%  2.17%
 566x  0.18%  1.88%
 536x  0.19%  1.84%
 508x  0.20%  1.60%
 483x  0.21%  1.43%
 461x  0.22%  1.42%
 440x  0.23%  1.20%
 422x  0.24%  1.28%
 404x  0.25%  1.00%
 389x  0.26%  1.14%
 374x  0.27%  0.98%
 360x  0.28%  0.80%
 348x  0.29%  0.92%
 336x  0.30%  0.80%
 325x  0.31%  0.75%
 314x  0.32%  0.48%
 305x  0.33%  0.65%
 296x  0.34%  0.64%
 287x  0.35%  0.45%
 279x  0.36%  0.44%
 271x  0.37%  0.27%
 264x  0.38%  0.32%
 257x  0.39%  0.23%
 251x  0.40%  0.40%
 244x  0.41%  0.04%
 239x  0.42%  0.38%
 233x  0.43%  0.19%
 228x  0.44%  0.32%
 218x  0.46%  0.28%
 213x  0.47%  0.11%
 182x  0.55%  0.10%

IMO subSTRATA is the one who deserves the reward.

@subSTRATA - you should post an address for transparency purposes.

see further in the thread.

I have ran simulation for this cases, and don't see any issue with it.... Am I missing something....

you claim to have run a simulation with an adequate sample size to prove each of these cases within minutes? an adequate sample size to prove these would be hundreds of thousands of bets, and I doubt your small server is capable of handling that. yes, you are missing something, its called math.

I ran only first 3 payouts on my own simulator with 1 million bets made. Result was the same.

But that one is interesting with payout rounding, yeah. Thanks for pointing that one out.

If there is a 0.02% chance of winning a bet then one will win such a bet once every 5,000 bets however you are paying out 6,613x of the wager amount. If someone were to make a .01 bet 5,000 times then they would wager a total of 50 BTC but would be expected to win  66.13 BTC.

As I said this is issue I can't reproduce in my simulator, I won't bother doing math as we have already did. Now we run only simulations....

You are wrong somewhere as I have entered exact parameters in simulator and result after 10 mil is 0 btc.

WOW, what an amazing result, subSTRATA you are genius and you have found such a big bug there, I think you profit from the promo like faucet or something, and make advantage from that, IMO it is not an exploit like you said before,  what an amazing result bro. ;D :D

It seemed that we were wrong and you found a good way to profit, damn cool, if you keep the secret in your heart, you could win a lot, if you sell it, you earn a lot too, what a good deal.    :o

This one isn't a bug, as I can reproduce it. So there is something wrong with your math. Sorry. But that rounding issues if fixed now and wasn't a big deal...

It is indeed not something that will make the user to get rich overnight however the rounding issues are giving player an edge over 30 % and that is indeed a big deal .Also that considering your site has an investment feature than it means investor is getting -EV which serves as a bad reputation for your site.

Your action of being hostile towards someone who give you a heads up also disgraced dooglus' calculation about this issue also is a bad publicity for your site and now people will think twice about investing on your site. In other words you have dug your own grave and it will be just a matter of time before more people read this thread

P.S : are you going to give Substrata the bounty for finding this flaw of your site?

But you didn't even fix the issues. Pleople are free to steal you money and it's not a big deal!
edit- you seem to have found a cheap method to limit max multiplier to 6500.
6500*0.02%=1.30 wich means 30% edge.
6613*0.02%=1.3226 wich means 32.26% edge
great! Now players can't play with 32.26% edge! How bad! They will need to comromise with only 30%!!!

Hostile? We offered him bounty, but he was to greedy to take it. We are small site and don't have huge profit, so we can't afford to reward everyone that says he found a bug, and doesn't want to tell us about it if we don't pay....

For this 32% issue or whatever it is impossible to reproduce, so you are wrong at some point, not sure where.

I have checked almost all scenarios from that table and all have the same result. And I trust my simulator more than I trust your math :P

Look you idiot, tell me all parameters that he used and I will check.

But if you bet on payout 3968
And roll under 0.3

You don't make any profit at all in 100 million bets. But if I am missing a parameter that you didn't tell me then it's a different story.

Someone should contact the high-rollers on primedice or elsewhere to check out your site and see who is right and who is wrong in the end  8)

Totally aggreed!
Sadly I am away from my main pc right now.
Hopefully someone will do it.

Look we are not talking about who is right or not. But if you don't tell me all parameters you used you are just wasting my time. Or you can't do math right.

http://www.statisticshowto.com/how-to-calculate-expected-value-in-statistics/
http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-an-Expected-Value
http://statistics.about.com/od/Formulas/a/What-Is-The-Formula-For-Expected-Value.htm

Right now, as for the EV bug, the main issue here is how unprofessional the admin reacted.
Though, there seems to be another bug as stated by subSTRATA

And by the way, joter is not the owner of the site. IIRC Kewl owns the site.

And as for subSTRATA extorting it out of joter, I wouldn't really see it as extortion,
since strata never threatened the man in the first place lol

And who are you? Do you know us? lol

Ok I will quit this thread, and kewl will join soon. Bye.

And BTW you are wrong :P

But as you are smart enough you can tell everyone on primedice to take a look. They are welcome!

I realize you are justifiably proud of your site which looks very nice and no one likes to be threatened with "I have an exploit give me coins" of which I'm sure you get many.  However, if dooglus says there is a problem, there is a problem.  

Is it possible that dooglus was doing something with his bets, or seed, or other doogmagic^TM that you are not putting into your simulation?

After all, you didn't detect the rounding bug until it was pointed out.  Fortunately, the % bets needed to be made were such low probability that it was still a high variance outcome to exploit the player's EV advantage.

You've already graciously offered a 1 BTC reward maybe stick with that as things unfold.

Regardless good luck to you and your site and kudos again to substrata for finding the rounding error.

Only error that we had reproduce is rounding error. The other one is just error in your math. Over and out.

Well, as by the looks of how you handle things, you sound like Kewl's bitch

I believe he is not that "greedy" merely doing some negotiation to increase the bug bounty , which is everyone will do considering 32 % house edge is a major flaw in your site and thats cause you to lose in long term if anyone finds out about this. Whats more is that you are losing your investor as well in this case because it is -Ev for them



Im not sure that do you even understand whats +EV means? Basically you dont need to run a simulation or whatsoever because you just need a simple math for it. If you dont trust this math, I wonder how do you able to code this site on the first hand.
Also some advice for you, if someone like dooglus pointed that there is a flaw in your code then there is a flaw with it since he never claim anything without proper math or test

P.S : you havent answered my question, will you give substrata his bounty? He had posted his address if you are not aware of it yet

1 btc is not something i like to keep on a hot wallet i use for everyday transactions, ill be setting up a new address in the next few minutes and quoting it in the OP. disregard the other address.
:

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
today is the third of July, this is subSTRATA of bitcointalk.org claiming this address to be a payout address at the request of quickseller in regards to this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106133.140
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
1PfR7yoo6ttNezCQd3NP5fcEhfGGrD456v
H3tKhOWaZNZrQ5z+PfirEPdNRJBgfU9moMt+xBgJ/sTieXksdFEV8SopIv1XC4Js+vwylo76UnN97ZFbRrm5MV8=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----

It really does not matter what the house edge is. As long as it is positive then your bankroll will be bleed dry eventually. It can be .01% or 35%, it really doesn't matter. After enough rolls at the certain bet then you will lose. Now that it is public, I am sure that more people are going to be quick to try to exploit it, so don't be surprised when the number of rolls that people are doing is going substantially up all of a sudden but your site's earnings seems to be going down.

There was not 1 but 2 +EV issues on site. I hope for their own sake they will fix it soon. I was chatting with jotr on his site, he has fixed his simulator :P (finally!)

Yeah sorry. Had a flaw in simulator... it is fixed now and can reproduce this issue.

lol, i like how some people are taking advantage and using hufflepuff as their nick

This unfortunately is true as well, if more number of users going for those higher payouts chasing +EV, the sooner your bankroll will dry. I wouldn't matter much if someone was doing it individually, but now collectively your bankroll is at risk. Its not a very time consuming fix, I am sure you can do it asap.

Oh dude, ouch.  Like I said, if dooglus says there is a problem, there is a problem.

Good luck fixing your site and repairing your reputation.

i don't know how your system is working and I guess, I better don't want to know it! But if such a bug is reported and you almost ignore it and coming up with lame excuses, I am wondering how honest you are.

My site is also only 4 month old, but whatever was reported - be it here on the forum - or via e-mail everything was taken care. So far we have paid 3.65 btc on bug reports. Not a lot but we are still the new kid on the block - but we take care.

simply changing the multiplier to be dependent on the win chance should be a nice and easy fix for this issue, currently the win chance is set by the multiplier which is set by the player, causing the rounding issue.

now this i gotta see

The fix being easy doesnt matter if the hurt be massive lol. joter doesnt get that.



lol man. I somehow pity you for your reckless bantering

Are you ready for your Walk of Shame?

Lol I couldn't help myself   8)


http://res.cloudinary.com/nylon/image/upload/t_featured_images-hero,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_80/featured_images/attachments/000/018/022/game-of-thrones.jpg

IF YOU ARE INVESTED AT THIS SITE, PLEASE DIVEST IMMEDIATELY.

You called me idiot first.  And yeah, I will miss you very much.

i love you for giving me a good laugh right now.

that aside, with this, i expect this to be patched within the next hour of furious coding.

Jesus now he's playing the
NO YOU CALLED ME IDIOT FIRST card

for the first time in past years I felt for cersie... :( don't remind me of that please.

It probably would have been a good idea to have divested around the time it was discovered that the site was the one that had a +EV strategy and the owner declined to fix it. I am sure that by now investors have lost a good amount of money due to the exploit (if you can even call it that)

Lol. If that doesn't get him to believe it then IDK what would.

since I was following chat there, I witnessed a number of people divesting out of there including a MOD.

Guys please. We all make mistakes, don't we?

Of course mistakes are acceptable buddy as far as you tend to accept them and fix them. I told you about 1 thing in chat, for other thing I told you they are right in forum but you insisted on being stubborn and when I came back there was no progress, I was expecting you'd have fixed both of them.

Who am I to judge anyway, I sincerely hope your investors do come back as soon as this situation is resolved.

this might be a little off-topic but I'll bite

I can't help but notice that your personal message say "literally hufflepuff". I assume that is a joke?  ;D

yesterday it was "you know nothing jon snow". I too was amazed to see this change, does it have something to do with this thread? :P

i couldnt help myself, it was perfect. and yes, it is a joke. if i were actually hufflepuff id be out in the carribean on my private island.

I was the Hufflepuff on Crypto-Games.net.  I assumed since the owner/representative was telling us that it was all good and nothing was wrong that we were invited to freely play on his website, and I thought the name Hufflepuff was funny.  Since he has admitted he was wrong and there was a flaw, I have turned off the autoplay program and will not play it anymore.

curious, how many bets did you get in before stopping? id like to see what the variance was for what you bet during that time.

I almost got down pretty good, but got 2 winners pretty quickly to put me up just a little bit.  Looks like about 9400 bets and won .00046 btc by betting .0000001 per bet at 6500X.

Are you going to pull the site down while you apply the fix or are you just going to leave it up for fair play?

the site should be taken down for the investors' sake until a fix can be applied; if there were no investors, this decision would be completely be up to dogecoinmachine and joter85, but with investors being affected, i would say there is only 1 clear choice here.

It is no longer exploitable. But need to do some client side fixes too. So we don't need to shut it down.

So you're saying that if I were to start playing, it would be all fine and dandy?

you wouldn't be confused if you read last few pages... anyway the story has reached its climax, it was fun!  ;D

I don't see how it's not. A player can still get the same chances and the same multiplier as op initially stated.

This +EV only works for several multiplier and this is not something that can make you rich instantly. You can lose as well but you got the higher chance to win because of this bug, here is the list for that and read the few last page for the story

yup, looks pretty much finished here; and hopefully, future dice site owners can learn from this and alter their script to prevent such a bug from existing again. I don't expect to pe paid anything after the recent events, but in the case they decide to be moral or whatnot, the address is in the OP, and 30% of anything sent there by crypto-games will be given to dooglus for his help.

regardless, there was substantial PR damage done.

Yes thanks a lot. You will get your reward tomorrow, don't worry.

Ok well i punched some of those numbers into primedice and i cant find any edge so far, i guess its with a different site or i need to use API access or something.

I will confirm in this thread when i receive it.


it was only possible due to a rounding error, read over the last few pages of the thread and it should be explained to you.

And thanks for negative feedback whoever gave it to me. Kiddie.

I wouldnt call quickseller of all people a "kiddie...."

Maybe he is a man that can't read then? All issues in this thread were fixed.

Quickseller's rating is abit not correct because they are not putting their investor in risk it seems.


Since they have put some action to counter this and in the end Joter admit he is wrong and has fixed the site. A neutral rating is more correct for this only after he pay the bounty then

Thanks man. We are sure trying our best to keep site secure. It is interesting issue, that nobody exploited it in one year since the site is up. At least no one made serious money with it. Probably because progress is very slow...

So all investors can be calm and your investments are growing as they were before. But of course all investments are risky. Me and Kewl risk the most and will stay largest investors for sure. Good luck all.

Did you not read about them first refusing to pay for a bug bounty so they can fix a +EV method to win on their site? Did you not see how, even after the +EV method leaked, that they didn't understand how it would cause them to lose? Did you not see how they are still refusing to pay to have Dooglus disclose the bug that he separately discovered (which would also cause the site to most likely leak it's bankroll)?

I am not sure how you think that investors money is safe on this site. I am not sure why you think it might be a good idea to invest in this site if you were to trust them enough not to steal from you outright and if you were to trust them enough to not play against the investors.

I don't trust you and I don't care.

Chill out, I dont want to seek any trouble here. I read your ratings and you put in "putting their investor at risk" but they send email to their investor and take steps to empty hot wallet and the other things, even allow them to divest if they want. Also they fixed the site already so no more issue and Im just pointing out. If you dont want to change it then its fine, as I am only pointing things out

Emptying the hot wallet does not do anything. All that means is that players would not be able to withdraw when they win. Sending emails to investors do nothing for the potential losses from prior to the strategy leaked and prior to them fixing it. Investors should always be able to withdraw.

If they are going to deny withdrawals when people have won (regardless of if they won because of the site's incompetence) is just outright scamming. 

They have also currently done nothing regarding the issue that Dooglus has found.

Read last few posts again please. As it looks like you didn't.

I'd say neutral trust is in order warning people of how poorly you handled this situation and your lack of maturity. Honestly, I don't believe negative rep was needed for people to tell what you probably arent the smartest guy around. Even as we told you that you were wrong and gave math to prove it that even a 5th grader could understand, you still said that we were wrong because your "simulations". Like honestly, your reputation is trashed and having little red numbers underneath your name should let people know that thanks to QS (<3 you). I commend you on still paying the bug bounty even though you don't have too.

edit; nm

And I hate red color. I hate math too, but can still code. F***.
Hope you find more bugs on our site soon, as we got some traffic increase today.
For rewards I would say: no no no. But its Kewl decision now, not mine.

Well its a great thing that you are able to code even you hate math that much


This is pretty normal and actually it is nothing significant to be proud of because those traffic are from those who wanted to find out the exploit as well. In a day or two, these users will leave the site as the rounding issue has been patched


Now you are getting stubborn again. You are getting a -30% edge and that is something that threaten your site and your investor. Had Substrata not tell you guys about it, he could easily "rob" the house slowly and you could only think that he is legit because you had no clue that this is just a simple rounding issue

Crypto-games will be trashing its reputation more if you guys refuse to give the bounty. I guess you have trashed quite enough today with your arrogant attitude despite being shown a simple math calculation about the 32 % house edge. With all of this fuss, It will be hard to get back your players or investor simply because of this small issues that can be noticed right away with a proper math

P.S : just a friendly suggestion, be nice and not hostile

Ok I am friendly now. Thanks all. Bye.

10,000 bets at 200x multiplier.  0 wins.  Awesome. :)

15,000 bets and 0 wins at 1/200 chance.

Uploading video to show part results.

I hope you are using faucet money for this because at this point you should have won 75 times with 100% luck.

That is similar to loosing 150 times consecutively with 50% odds, however the chances are less likely to happen in your situation because of less variance.

.4BTC.

The video will take 70 minutes to upload to youtube.

http://i60.tinypic.com/33c5hyv.jpg

I did about 10,000 rolls at .0002BTC, stopping occasionally.  The first 5,000 rolls were hit or miss.  The next 5,000 rolls I didn't win any to the point where I needed to cut my bet size down in half.  Once I started betting .0001BTC, I never won a single wager.

http://i60.tinypic.com/29dya87.jpg

During the first run of 5,000ish rolls, I won 25 times.  Each .0398BTC.  I did a few small manual bets as well.  25 * .0398BTC + small bets = 1.0236 (Amount won as shown in the picture above).  This shows that 0.0000000000000000BTC was won during my auto-rolling of .00001BTC bets.

Wow, I've been gone a couple of days and all this happens? Guess I need to catch up. Pretty huge mess-up by the OP if you ask me.

explain where i "messed up."

also, regarding the second bug that dooglus found, it could potentially be a bigger issue than it might seem at first glance, but i dont care enough to find out its potential implications. I only have basic knowledge of this bug based off what dooglus has sent me.


from one problem to another, this is actually hilarious.

I was testing out the site.  I had something come up and left the auto roller on.  I seen how much it was down and then started paying closer attention and soon caught that I wasn't winning a single bet.  So by that point, I figured I'd start recording the results and then share it here so that something would be done about it or show that the site is just in full blown scam mode now.

Ooh, another thing wrong with a fairly shit site? Grab your popcorn guys, we got a show!

Video of ~3000 rolls.  Tried to do 5000 but obviously ran out of money.  I have another 10 minutes of this showing the exact same thing but chose only to upload this one for now.

1/200 chance.  No winners in ~20,000 rolls.

https://youtu.be/dkhkUcygZv8

People do not want to report bugs just because of this kind of attitude from some website owners and also no bounty. A bug bounty is great to get information on bugs in your site before someone exploits it. And this guy instead of selling it reported to you. You should respect that and give him bounty.

i think you mean memory (nvm, bankroll, got it.). anyways, this kind of variance is highly unlikely.

I think it's way up there with winning the mega millions jackpot back to back. 

So yeah...  The very least you can do to start off with is refunding my .4BTC.  Ball is in your court Crypto-games.net team.

They will soon turn out to be scam imo. I don't think they are going to refund anyone's money. Or will give an excuse "We hate maths - Not our fault"

seems a "Rush224" is able to bet 6666x despite the limit being 200x for now, i highly suspect that I know the bug the user is exploiting to get this multiplier value. he seems to be up about ~.33 BTC at the time of writing this post with a marginal house edge from his bets;

1 - ( 6666*0.0015) = .999, 0.1% house edge. the quick fix of adding another decimal place didnt really fix the issue completely it seems.
( 0.992/6666 ) = 0.0001488148

what a difference that small amount makes...

same deal with Russel434, around 0.02 up at the time of writing this; betting 1094x.

http://i.gyazo.com/ddc954bac4681582fe7febb0ccae3393.png

Yeah, shits fucked on this site. Avoid it like the plague boys :D

well the site is pretty much dead even before the bug tragedy story happened. People should really check the site before investing some hard earned money because you really don't know if it was coded by some wannabe's coder or not. I hope those people who do really know how to code continue checking every site out there..

thats a rather crude way to put it, but yes, basically that.
http://i.gyazo.com/61ed2907d1e719571865a8dfec2824b8.png

this guy needs to get out, like now. 4.66 BTC invested given the current situation.

I'm not here to sugar coat anything. Poorly coded, bad management, and the lack of ability to do math. Recipe for the investors to lose everything. Only reason to stay around here is if you are a player that can abuse the glitches and make some bank.

not saying im trying to sugar coat it, just saying the language was rather crude. but after the shady turn of events, im going to assume that crypto-games.net will not be giving anything for the bug finding(s), and considering the address in OP as a tip address. if dooglus wants to post one too ill gladly edit it into the op, the guy really deserves credit for finding some back-end bugs.

In your case mistake isn't an option, you're running a gambling site and people have entrusted you with their hard earned money.. don't play the i am just a human excuse.. people already warned you and want to get it fixed before it it would turn into a pretty big mess but you chose your ego " We are confident with our code" yeah right, serves you right

Yeah, I got you. Dooglus really is good at finding bugs and he gets paid from sites regularly for it. I'm sure he wont mind too much though.

assuming with this hotfix, that a 99.999 is the highest obtainable roll, one player is still exploiting for a +EV using the exploit that dooglus has found:
http://i.gyazo.com/dbecd45b44134273cf23ea000e8d049a.png


1 - ( 1094*0.001 ) = -.094, 9.4% edge for the player.

this is an absolute laughingstock at this point.

Wait, so Dooglus blackmails other sites too? word it anyway you want but this was blackmail, pay my price or I release / sell the exploit that would harm not only the owner but innocent investors who probably didn't know better.

right? Or am I missing something here?

think what youd like, i offered to help them but they turned hostile on me, and even though i tried to keep their site's name hidden, they went and let it out themselves, causing all this. i admit i did try to sell it for a short period of time, but soon abandoned the idea, morality isnt that cheap, and i plan to keep it that way.

in regards to "pay my price" or whatever, i offered 1 BTC for the bug on the +EV bets, and another 0.5 BTC for a back end bug that dooglus found, but agreeing to disclose that second part was not my decision as i had no in depth-knowledge of that bug. apparently, getting the major bug that allowed for +EV bets (32% at that) wasnt good enough, so the admin started getting rather hostile and insulting. from that last part, i was tempted to sell it or whatever, but as i said above, i abandoned the idea in 20 or so minutes, opting for the moral route. then you know, all this started.

i expressed it before too, there are several other bugs that are clearly being exploited right now; i am not disclosing them especially because one individual has invested quite a large sum into the site. also, i never threatened them.

Blackmail is blackmail.

I dont know the current situation with this site but if these are real investors, you are just as bad as the site owner. Same with dooglus.... others have gotten negative feedback for blackmailing other scammers, not sure why neither of you have gotten some yet.

Bottom line: You were willing to profit from possibly innocent investors if the owner failed to pay you.

again, i stand that i didnt threaten them at any point.

Pay me or I sell the exploit , which would only screw investors. Yeah okay, no harm done there  ::)

i never demanded payment from them, i only asked that the full sum be agreed to and i did agree that I would disclose the first bug if they agreed, which they did not. the disclosure of the second bug was not up to me as I had no in depth knowledge of it at the time. then the insults began... i never even put the bug to use either. again, youre free to think what you think, but at this point i have no ill intentions to either of the individuals running the site.

well it seems this has quickly turned against me somehow, i agree that xetsr has valid points and that i am at fault for a lapse in judgement, but i did not get anything out of this from either crypto-games or any other third party.

I can't speak to any specific conversations that either Dooglus or subSTRATA had with this site's owner, or the owner of other sites. However if it were me that had found the exploit, then I would have told them something along the following:

"I have found an issue with your site that others could potentially use to steal from you, I have no intention of disclosing it to anyone other then you, nor do I have any intention of using such exploit personally, although I cannot guarantee that others will not use the same public information to exploit this same issue."

I think the above would pass the test of not being blackmail, while still being reasonably compensated for your time/skills.

The fact is that gambling sites are for-profit entities, and giving advice as to how to prevent yourself from getting robbed when large amounts of money is at stake should not be given for free. These sites should invest in the time/effort to prevent these kinds of exploits from existing in the first place.

I never said doog blackmails people. The fuck are you leaping on me here for? Sites approach him for it and he helps them out. He also finds them by himself on the side but never blackmails anyone for it.

something along those lines;
http://i.gyazo.com/222edf967be29fabfcdafa01cd6b4607.png

i made it clear there were two bugs in the initial pm sent, and at which a later point DCM was suddenly surprised there were two bugs. also i made it clear in the first few pages of the thread that no details would be disclosed except to the site owner.

You didn't get anything out of this... but what if someone did pay you? This is the point I'm trying to make. if someone offered you what you were asking for, you would have sold them the exploit, right? Like your previous posts suggested.

You were willing to release the exploit for a price at the expense of investors.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106133.msg11780169#msg11780169


Am I misunderstanding something here?

ill be quite honest here, i initially noticed the bug when i clicked "max" on the site, and noticed the discrepancy of 6500x and 0.02% win chance. at that point in time, i had no knowledge there was an investment option on the site.


no you are not, that is my fault and a serious lapse in judgement.

edit: at this point

Okay then, glad you realized your mistake and the damage that could have been done if you were to get an offer and proceeded to sell the exploit.

Just so everyone knows, I have nothing to do with the site and I'm not a investor. I'm just wondering why nobody else could see the point I was trying to make. If someone pulled this BS at just-dice (offered to sell an exploit if Dooglus didn't pay up), all the kids over there would go absolutely crazy.

I changed my feedback to neutral since you admitted you made a mistake :)

I don't sympathize for him at all. He was willing to let investors get screwed too. I do sympathize for the investors though, as I doubt they had any idea on what was going on and were most likely the ones who would get screwed over by this.

Seems people turn a blind eye around here lately when it comes to the more higher ranked members...

I am not saying that the OP did what I suggested should have been done, I am just saying that you can receive a bug/exploit bounty without blackmailing/extorting the owner of the site.

I know that here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106133.msg11780396#msg11780396), the owner of the site said:
If something similar was said about selling the exploit, then the OP trying to sell it would be fair game. If something similar was not said, then trying to sell it would not be appropriate.

When it comes to bug reports, there is a very fine line between blackmail and responsible disclosure.

selling it was the first intention with the thread, and later on i opted to take the more moral route and provide the details to the admin, but through the exchange, the frustration in dealing with the admin resulted in my looking to sel it again, and then back to public disclosure of the bug so that it could be fixed. either way, excuses arent accepted, so i wont be making any, the only thing to do is continue the moral path from now on, as it were.

if anything, i hope future dice site owners/dice site script coders can take a page out of this and thoroughly examine their code to prevent anything similar to this happening.

So.... I made another video as others didn't believe me and I knew 100% that the next 5000 rolls would result in 0 wins.  I'm uploading the video as we speak.

I also predicted (as you can hear in the video) that if I started a new user account and changed the VPN, that I would hit in about 2-400 rolls which low and behold, I did.


Again... You tell me that something isn't wrong.  I believe there's tampering going on. 

glad to see you followed my suggestion, even more so to see that my suspicion may have been proven true. i said this in the chat before after speculation from a pm conversation, but it may be that your ip/account is blacklisted to skip nonces or something of the sort.

Youtube is telling me 56 minutes.  I wasn't able to get the new user winning as my computer died from video memory, but I can easily do it under any other account and expect a win within 2-400 rolls.

I recorded it with myself in the video to show that there was no funny business, editing, or magic going on and that it was all in real time with the time stamps proving that there no re-takes.

sorry, i have a habit of editing posts immediately after posting them, just wanted to make sure this part was seen regarding the issue here. I wouldnt be surprised if something to enable this function was already implemented in the back end; it doesnt seem right that something like this could be implemented in such a short time frame.

Why does he need to give up the information first? I don't see any reason why the OP needs to disclose the entire exploit prior to making any arrangement. If the owner of the site is not willing to pay the amount that the person who found the exploit wants for it then I don't see any reason why he should be forced to give up the information for less then what he thinks it is worth.

Explaining how much he thinks someone using the exploit could steal from the site is, IMO, something that would allow the owner of the site to gage how much would be reasonable to pay for such information.

I think that it is important to be very clear that you have no intention of either using the exploit yourself or disclosing it to other third parties. This is important because I am not trying to defend the OP from trying to sell the exploit.

Stating the fact that someone else could potentially find the same exploit is a true statement, and is relevant if nothing more then public information was used to find such exploit as it means that the person soliciting the bounty for the exploit simple staying silent may not be sufficient to protect the site from getting robbed.

That post by the owner was made AFTER the exploit was being sold. subSTRATA admitted this thread was created with intentions to sell it at first...

Anyway, subSTRATA admitted he made a mistake so I'm done here.

I will drop some negative feedback on joter85 so hopefully others will no longer invest or play there without knowing about these bugs and exploits. Who knows, these exploits may have been in place for a reason. Like to slowly drain the investors ;)

pretty perceptive, this was also a point brought up in a pm; as it stands the dice script created by joter85 is either incomplete/shoddy or intentionally faulty. if i were to give the benefit of the doubt considering that 1094x bets that are still going through, im inclined to think that the script was shoddily created and is incomplete. however, with dogedigital's experience with the site possibly having nonces skipped on the "simsim" account, i really dont know what to think here.

edit: Russel434 is still at it, ~0.12 in profit as of right now with 1k satoshi bets, exploiting both bugs to obtain a 9.4% edge as previously stated.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been offline most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.


I told you that I verified that he is able to get a 30% edge over the house.

Do you think I'm lying to try to scam 1.5 BTC out of you? Really?


Not only that, but it's other people's money they're risking here. They take 'investments'. I wonder if they have any idea who came up with that idea...  ::)


I don't think I will. The site has the old-fashioned kind of provable fairness where they change the server seed every roll, and so you need to do an awful lot of work to verify the fairness. You would need to note the server seed hash before every roll, change the client seed unpredictably before every roll, then verify that the revealed server seed really hashes to the provided hash and that the two seeds together give the correct roll. Every roll. It's just too much work to expect anyone to do.

No modern dice site uses this kind of provable fairness any more. Even Prime Dice finally switched to using the static server seed + nonce method that Just-Dice pioneered about a year ago after many requests from players.


Yes! Players expect to win the 0.03% bet once in 3000 rolls. When they do, they are paid 3968 units. If you have a greater than 1/3968 chance of winning 3968 units, that's +EV. In this case it's a 19.04% edge for the player.

It beggars belief you don't recognise the problem even after having it spelled out to you.


Is there a grown-up anywhere near you? Maybe get them to help you. For fuck sake man, this is insane.


Your math is a little wrong, and overly complicated. The player's edge is 32.26%, not 32.44%:


You used 0.002 when you should have used 0.0002:

>>> 0.0002 * 6612 + (1-0.0002)*-1
0.3226

But it's easier just to calculate the payout. It's 0 when the player loses, and 6613 when they win, so return to player per 100 bet is:

>>> 6613 * 0.02
132.26

ie. a 32.26% edge.


Has it occurred to you that it is possible that you might be wrong? The alternative is that everybody else is wrong, since they all seem to be telling you the same thing.


Since you don't seem to believe in math, I wrote a simple simulation of the 3968x at 0.03% bet:


When you run it, the profit is up and down at first, but it settles down after a while:


The math predicts a player profit of 19.04%. The simulation shows a player profit of 21% after 10 million rolls. If you ran the simulation for longer, it would settle down at 19.04%. So I guess you either didn't run your simulation for long enough or made an error coding it.


When subSTRATA came to me with this and I confirmed it was a real issue, he asked for my advice on how to proceed. I told him I have had mostly bad experiences with bug bounties. Most site operators will stiff you on the bounty if they think they can get away with it. We had a discussion about the morality of making the +EV bets just enough to earn what the feel the bounty is worth, and then reporting it "for free". subSTRATA was very much of the opinion that that would be wrong, and that he would just approach the site directly. I think he assumed that they take his message seriously since I was vouching for the fact that it was real. I think we were both shocked by the arrogance of their response.


You missed a zero. It's 0.03% at 3968x. At 0.3% the profit should be huge, since that's an edge of 0.3 * 3968 - 100 = 1090.4% for the player.


That's different. He called you an idiot because you were being an idiot.

You called him an idiot because you were butthurt.


I think the biggest issue in this thread is the horrible way you dealt with the whole situation. I can't imagine how you could have been any less professional. I don't have any reason to believe that you will react any differently to future bug reports. Do you?


You should stop coding. If you don't understand the math underlying the algorithms that you are coding you end up with horrible errors like we have seen here. You are lucky that subSTRATA took the approach he did rather than slowly bleeding your bankroll dry. It seems like there is very little chance you would have ever found out how it was happening considering how hard it was to pound the understanding into you in this thread.


I had a similar experience yesterday. I had horrible losing streaks, but put it down to variance. I didn't keep logs at all, and didn't have any kind of seed logging in place either.

The site claims to be provably fair, but for all intents and purposes the amount of work the player needs to put in to verify the fairness means it may as well not be.

They should change to use a system like Just-Dice uses, where the player can make a million rolls at <0.02% and then at the end reveal their server seed and easily check how many times they should have won by running the provably fair algorithm in a loop with a single seed pair and an ever-changing nonce. Lots of sites have adopted that system - it's free for anyone to use.


1JtD6uG43feZrUqgxTYsQAPTmgmq8hogCt is an address for me. But don't feel the need to tip me - I didn't do anything other than vouch for subSTRATA's find.


No, here's how I do it: I email the site and disclose the bug report up front. Then they try to find excuses not to pay me. Sometimes they end up paying something, but most often I get nothing.

In this case I was merely vouching for subSTRATA. He didn't want to get ripped off by the site and so wanted to get paid up front. They wouldn't believe him if I didn't vouch for him. And didn't believe him that I did. Ho hum.

I don't think anyone was threatening to release or sell the exploit, but maybe I'm wrong.


Exactly. It is common practice for gambling sites NOT to reward people who help them fix security holes, and so it doesn't seem unreasonable to withhold information until the reward is paid. Their site contains text claiming that the DO reward people who report bugs, and so it doesn't seem unreasonable to use what is effectively an escrow to hold knowledge of the bug in exchange for the reward.

Or, in other words: They say "we pay for bugs". There is a history of sites breaking that promise, and so using a "bug escrow" (like me) seems reasonable. And not like blackmail at all.


No need to skip nonces. The site doesn't use them. It makes up a new server seed for each roll.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

No idea why joter hasn't just closed the site to fix these issues and then reopen after making sure everything is properly secured.

three possibilities:

1) he's asleep
2) based on the stubbornness displayed earlier in the thread (simulator, "i dont like math") he might be taking stubbornness to a new level when there is clearly an exploit being abused at this very moment
3) the site has gone full scam and the admin/dev is waiting for the right time.

Because he's stupid. Either that or he is trying to extort money out of the site. Anyones guess at this point why he refuses to make a proper fix or take the site down considering he is risking others money.

I can't believe that this admin won't pay just 1.5 BTC for these serious bugs
32% edge is really serious , if players know this method they will get more than hufflepuff
I'm really curious to know what is this site , cause if the admin keep refusing to make the deal then I think he doesn't care about his site
and maybe he will scam at any moment
I will keep following the news here

I think ive already suggested a proper fix for this earlier in the thread; make the multiplier based off of the winning chance: multiplier = 0.992/(win chance)
right now, the win chance being dependent on the multiplier is causing the rounding issues.

You are an incredibly stupid signature spammer.

It's so obvious and it has become an epidemic. Report them and hope for permabans

I feel like following the list of major offenders around and reporting them. Would be funny seeing if i could get a few banned (Sy,panjul) Only the ones who seem to have the intelligence of rocks though. There are some who i know only post for signatures but they can least form coherent sentences.

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

http://youtu.be/q5ofHQNKtI8

At this point, I don't really care about a refund.

Simply, I'll just be starting a scam accusation and warn all others here that even if this is the result of an infinitely low occurring event, there are way too many problems with the script and edge and is ran by unmotivated and stubborn owners. 

Do NOT play Here!

God fucking damn doge. That is insane. I really dont think this is possible if its fair. Sucks that you lost money on this but holy shit thats either INCREDIBLEy bad luck or rigged/skipping nonces.

dooglus mentioned that the site is using the old provably fair system; it might be more malicious than just skipping nonces, since I'm guessing there aren't nonces to be skipped.

oh shit I have one too, I wonder if ours is the same, Ill read up more on this post.

Exactly this. There are 10k different possible rolls (or 100k, for now, etc.) so have the roll target and the stake be the things which define the bet, and have the payout multiplier be derived from that (and calculated to enough places that the rounding doesn't matter).

seems Russel434 has stopped betting for now, grand total profit of 0.16494382 BTC with 2.04093204 wagered.
http://i.gyazo.com/cc025f4f7c83766ba590c85d6f94e31e.png
1094x rolls, 1k satoshi wagers, 9.4% player edge, pretty close to EV.

meanwhile, Rush224 has made off with a bit more:
http://i.gyazo.com/4dd22e3a5fc770e1043c850418a884e4.png
0.9236765 wagered, 0.27602352 BTC profit; he was doing 6613x rolls which would give him a 32% player edge, which seems close enough for a small sample size.
4.5k satoshi wagers.

>>> 1 / ((99.946 / 100) ** 25000)
732080.9049554196

That's a 1-in-732k chance?

Also, "The video you have requested is not available." - what's up with that?

might be that sharing settings werent set right, here's the first video though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhkUcygZv8&feature=youtu.be

also dogedigital feel free to pm me if you want help getting a scam accusation together, id be more than happy to help compile some info for you.

Re-uploading.  The video stopped at 96%. 

@Dogedigital It's not impossible, but obviously you had really bad luck.
If others are winning, I don't see why wouldn't you.

Yo guys, the other co owner showed up. Let's all laugh and call his BS :D

If they were using correct algorithms for multipliers there wouldn't be any need to fix each payout factor individually. The problem here is that developer is trying to calculate win chance from payout ratio provided, it should be other way around.

I still hope these issues can be fixed, but as I said you guys should have taken down the site and fixed it once and for all just like all others suggested. All you need to look into is your multiplier calculation function and thats it. I have even told you what you're doing wrong there.

p.s. change your house edge to 1% officially and may be you guys will be able to handle this correctly.

You're so nice.

At current, maximum 200 multiplier nobody (investors) is losing and nobody has ev+

From the looks of it dogiedigital lost pretty badly. To the effect that his loosing streak was nearly impossible

Players should absolutely not play/invest on your site and people should absolutely not trust you

So, should people leave this signature campaign according to you? If he isnt able to be trustworthy then I dont think it will payout. And yes the losing streak is impossible, you dont win a single time with soo many bets..

ClamCoin

so it happens one time every 700k bets. That's not impossible at all if we have 42 million already

Yes but you don't have any house edge anymore. Which means no edge for investors, I don't mean to criticize, I am just trying to help you/your developer understand what everybody is talking about.

Currently on your site if a player enters 200x payout, he gets 0.5% win chance which means 0% house edge. If you had a 1% house edge, for 0.5% winning chance you should not offer more then 198x payout and on 0.8% house edge no more then 198.4x payout.

As I said before if you had right algorithms on just 1 simple multiplier calculation function, you wouldn't need to go through all this hassle.

Edited: ...and this is not a client side only issue, Why is it so difficult to understand or fix?

Simple solution is to calculate payout multiplier by winning chance on server end, don't calculate win chance by payout entered by players, there will be errors in your calculations. On client end currently you only let users enter payout X they want, you don't let them modify winning chance, right? Now either you reverse this (let them enter win chance and you give them payout X) or you need to be smart there, when they enter payout X and your function calculates winning chance for them, don't just stop there and once the winning chance is calculated, again calculate payout X from that winning chance within same function. This should get rid of all your troubles.

And now please don't tell me you don't know how to convert win % to payout X.

...and no this is not really a small issue, you should take it seriously!

Well isn't this dreadful? You guys have been provided with mathematical equations and even solutions to your problem and this is no where being fixed. I'd say watch out for this one, they are not serious about running a casino. Why should investors risk their money with your casino while it has been proven that players were having edge of over 32% and now after your so called fix there is still no house edge to cover your investors??

Mfaspk...it will be fixed.

Asuspc...read the whole tread again,  looks like you didnt

Excuse me but I did read the whole thread, you should read what I wrote carefully. There was indeed a +EV of up to 32.26% as it has been proven.


When there is no edge to cover your investors, this means your investors are still losing. As others have suggested, this doesn't look like a major fix just some rounding issues but nevertheless you are not taking this seriously otherwise you'd have taken the site down for maintenance yesterday or as soon as it was reported to you by OP.

There is a house edge, except for 200x payout. And it will be fixed soon.

Looking forward for final fix. I also hope you already know that in some cases your multiplier is enforcing more house edge (nearly 2%) then advertised. Fix to your multiplier function as suggested above will also fix this problem.

All fixed now.

Really? are you sure  ???  :(  :-X

200x now has 2% house edge.
199x has nearly 3% house edge.
6500x has now 35% house edge..
4961x has 50.39% house edge.

can somebody confirm this? I also made a roll and it looks like same on server side

seriously what is wrong with you people?

Well this is the response I got:

https://i.imgur.com/r5OZjY8.png

and

https://i.imgur.com/XXIDmz9.png

Don't forget that I was the one who told them what exactly the bug was in their chat and how to fix that. I even told you solution for your problem few posts above! I have helped you out with not 1 but 2 +EV bugs on your site.

Okay! go ahead and be as stubborn as mule, I don't care anymore.
...

I am sorry but this is really starting to stress me now, I can't stand how simple it is to understand and fix and how difficult they are making for themselves.

No man, we can all tell how incompetent Jota is. Dogedigital seems to be less stupid but isnt getting it like the rest of us here. Eventually they will figure out math. Give it a few more days, or maybe even weeks.

All abort! abort ship! I repeat abort ship!

Mayday Mayday were going down! Bet they are probably panicked now that they're reputation has gone out the window. To be honest i didnt even know they were a thing til' a week ago lol.

Seems Joter learned nothing from this:


The lesson should be when people smarter than you try to help you, shut up and listen!

Here is what he told me when I told him that with such house edge you are literally cheating people...

https://i.imgur.com/8Kvb5KF.png

I don't think the 4960x bets are a problem:

>>> 100 - 4960 * 0.02
0.8

That's a 0.8% edge as advertised.

The 200x bets have a 2% edge:

>>> 100 - 200 * (99.99 - 99.5)
2

well yes but they set max payout rato to 4960x after reading my post. Try to see hosue edge on 3507x

100 - 3507*0.02 = 29.86

29.86% house edge.
good thing joter doesnt care if hes practically scamming players.
http://i.gyazo.com/90b363b33eff4ca65a8610a71dc7c78f.png

Well that is not it... with 2 digits after decimal in winning chance %, you literally cannot offer payouts with +1 increments. These people are too duffer to understand this. Their multiplier is still full of blunders even after so-called "fix".

Anyway that takes the cake:
https://i.imgur.com/FjpDUEK.png

I keep trying to upload the video but youtube is giving me problems.  It's a 4.27gb .flv file.  Going to try and convert it and see what happens.  I'll give my statement when the video is ready.

i pointed that out before too, and even suggested a fix: make the multiplier based on the win chance rather than the win chance based on the multiplier as it is now. this joter85 guy is beyond too stupid to code; a programmer disregarding math is probably the single most ridiculous thing ive heard in years.

I checked your account. The bets you are making seem to be -EV. Are you sure you didn't just get lucky?

(payout * chance = 99.99; less than 100 means it's -EV)

Sorry I wrote 3507x by mistake.. its 3307x currently with the worst house edge, about 33.86%. (Previously it was 4961x with 50.39%)


and worst of all... they still send multiplier value to make the roll, like they have learned nothing yet.

a 1 in 5000 chance is a 0.02% win chance; 0.02*5000 = 1

0.015*6666 = 99.99, giving a 0.01% house edge. recheck your math, because thats a pretty glaring error on your part.

Are you saying they added a decimal place to the target but not to the rolls themselves?

That's amazing! :)

< 0.015 is the same as < 0.02 when your rolls only have 2 decimal places.

So much fail in one place!

right here
http://i.gyazo.com/2427ca9e7a3d167e7afe48378b5c3422.png

i didnt realize the discrepancy between the decimal place "fix" between the roll value and the rolls themselves, no need to be insulting.

These bets have a target of < 0.015:

https://i.imgur.com/LeKkfHP.png

but the rolls only have 2 decimal places...

Funniest part of all this, is that this place has more business and players now from all this attention than they would have got in a year.

I guess there is no such thing as bad press.

i told you that i thought you made a mistake when i was unaware of the discrepancy; you called me a kid. theres a difference.


the majority of the new people there now are just looking to exploit, when i was on there last night all the chat was was "how to exploit? someone tell me how to +EV? 100% win method?"

when all this dies down the site should be relatively dead i think, that or after Dogedigital gives his official statement.

but they have made more coin in the last few days, than they would have in a year or more of normal operation.

You've done them a favor.

It wont be dead yet as most people doesnt even know what +EV means and practically they dont care about it especially this is happening for specific high mutiplier. Sadly if you look on the chatbox , you could see that there are still some regular playing as usual there without even care about it and they took on Joter's words that everything has been fixed while the fact is that everything is not fixed yet ( he is the first coder who dont know to do a simple math that I have met until now )

These people is pretty much ignorance with their "favourite site", the same thing you could say to those who are still playing ad supporting on 999dice despite that the site has been declared as a rigged and scam site since day 1


So you proposed that we should keep quiet about this and let it go? This is not how the things work around here though

that may be true, even if most of the wagers were from people looking to abuse the flawed system they had in place. I don't know what the statistics for the site were prior to all this, so I can't say if they actually made coin from this, but definitely a big attention boost. seems to be in a slight loss for the last day though.
http://i.gyazo.com/740a63abf029149166bb90ecc940142a.png

Im saying your driving traffic and money to them, and thats true.  At this point they have made their money, and can shut down and reopen under a different name.  Id go about this differently.

I have communicated with joter before, I thought he was arrogant and I thought he doesn't listen to others, I think I am totally correct. He is not only the bad math student, but also an very arrogant guy.

I talked with him in his thread about marketing of his site, but he refused to listen my ideas. I don't wanna find those discussions and show them cos it is wasting time, if everyone blames him, he must have some issues so that others blame him. So he doesn't care about his site and investors, his investors will be screwed by him I am pretty sure.  ;D

Maybe the bad press is deliberate and it's all a big stunt who knows really lol  8)

On a side note, people seem to like nitpicking on each other on forums I guess it's just humans are the cruelest of animals. Misery loves company.

I thought this too.  Would be a brilliant scam if true.  Fake an exploit, hire a guy to expose you, rig your games.

would definitely make for one hell of a story, but sorry to say, im not affiliated with these guys in any way. :)

Maybe, but then how do you explain his public display of stupidity and rudeness?

Not entirely true on the bolded part, he may have a lot more traffic but after this all fuss end then the traffic will be gone as well. For the money part, it is too far to go with they are getting "money" from it. If you read a few pages back, there is someone that actually use this to his advantages and get some BTC from the site as well as Dogedigital lost a few there.

They wont run away or shut down though, their regular players practically dont care about this issue (check on their chatroom) and Joter seems to be enjoying himself with all this fuss. This people are ignorance as well as their dev and pretty much arrogant despite being pointed with all the flaw in their site .



You should check on the chatroom and see how he address this issue there, he claimed it was fixed and those raging here about this "small issue" is stupid .

---

On another note, people seem to love fuss and "bad" news

He would play that part, so that people would think that he is too stupid to find/fix the exploit.  Rudeness to help people justify taking advantage of the exploit because he is a jerk.

Im not saying this is what happened, just that it would be dam near the prefect setup for a short term money grab.

+1 for your expertise in "conspiracy theories"  :-X

I had thought about this too, which is why I was weary when I was going to test his exploit the other day.  I was afraid he wouldn't cash me out, but it ended up going through instantly.  Maybe it was just too early on and he wanted more deposits to come in before running.

This whole issue came about because too many different payout multipliers result in the same chance of winning when the chance is rounded to 2 decimal places.

That's an issue that all dice sites have to consider at some point, and of course they all come to the conclusion that you need to let the player pick the chance and tell them what the multiplier is going to be, and not the other way around.

Just-Dice has been running for 2 years and only today did someone ask about this for the first time. They want to turn 0.6 CLAM into 130k CLAM, and to do so they need a multiplier which results in a chance of winning of 0.00045%. We only allow chances to 4 decimal places, and so he has to go with 0.0004% or 0.0005% and was wondering why he couldn't have the chance he wanted.

It's weird that the issue should come up now for the first time, independently of the crypto-games.net issue. Apparently crypto-games.net has been running for a year without anyone thinking about this issue too.

Yep, even I played there last night.  And as I was playing I was thinking how I'd never even heard of this site until now.  It seems like you only really have a chance to win at these sites if you are very lucky or if you know enough about math and programming in order to figure out an angle or flaw in the systems.