Bitcoin Forum

America's new debt ceiling - $19,600,000,000,000 (thats in the trillions if you were not sure)

Thats $60,000 debt for every man, woman and child in the country.

Ticking timebomb waiting to blow, keeping the gold nicely polished waiting for the day :)

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/10/20151022_debt_0.jpg

 
  
Can anyone extend this graph out?  At this insane exponential (possibly exponential²) growth, when will we hit a debt ceiling of 1 quadrillion?  I think it will happen much sooner than we expect, possibly as soon as 2030 at the current rate of growth.

Doubt it will go that high, its already way past the unsustainable point as is. Also seriously doubt whether most of that debt will ever be paid back. The central banks bargain on the economy growing itself out of the debt but cannot see that happening. Not sure how they are going to get it sorted out, all I know is that something big is on its way and it ain't going to be a picnic.

Also, don't forget about Europe, Draghi is trying his level best to catch up on his own chart, don't like being left behind.
 

Goodness gracious where is this headed to?? When this blows up we will be all screwed, the whole world.

I am so happy that I got into Bitcoin!  

I've been thinking about that a lot - where is this heading to? Can it really explode?

I'm no economics expert but here's my take...

How much of this debt is owed to America vs. other countries or entities? The debt owed to other countries or entities is real.  Those groups can knock on America's door and say "pay up" and America would have to comply. The debt to America is internal...like borrowing money from a family member. The payoff requirement is more blurry.

I wonder what real discussions are had at the highest levels of government about what  to do if the debt cycle implodes "on my watch"... America isn't the only country with soaring debt.

All this talk makes me want to go pay down some debt!

Debt ceiling alarm!  Press "snooze".  Go back to sleep.

The debt of United States its a bit ugly, its impossible to return it. And I suppose that isn't the only country that will have problems to pay its debt. Yes they can impress more money to pay, but with this movement they create new debt. One of the big things of bitcoins its that there is a limit of bitcoins, you can't "print" more bitcoins.

Ok, let's start a fundraising campaign to receive bitcoin donation to repay the debt.

19600000000000/280 = Only 70 billion bitcoins are needed.

Good news everyone!  If we just wait a couple of decades only 400,000 bitcoins will be needed!

I wonder how high will this thing go before people finally wake up from daydreaming and realizing the truth about the real scenario. Sometimes what I don't understand is that how these things can go up so high and yet things are still not collapsing?

i'm still wondering one thing and only one, why this shit is not sinked already?

how can they sustain this ridiculous farse with that debt, and keep going like nothing is in trouble

Had they refrained from invading third world nations, to put their idea of "forced regime change" in to place, the debt would have been much lower. The Iraq invasion alone cost the Americans some $3 trillion. Add in the invasions of Libya, Serbia, Afghanistan.etc and you will find that more than 50% of the debt was created as a result of warfare.

There can be only three possible outcomes, or some combination.

Officially declare bankruptcy.
Hyperinflation.
A war on a scale that makes little things like numbers meaningless.

That's it. There are no other options for clearing the debt. The US is going to lose its financial lead on the world stage and there is not enough money in the world to prevent it at this point.

It's just as bad in europe. We can't even pay for our own people and then we got massive amounts of immigrants on top of that. The entire western economy is going to collapse and it is going to happen within our lifetimes, possible as soon as within the next 5-10 years. Just a matter of how long they can keep kicking the can.

It's not all internal. I know that Chinese own hell of a  lot of the US debt. Maybe someone can share how much this is in numbers.

Ad I understand, this is still going on because dollar is the world currency. Over 78% of world reserves are in dollars. But if people would knock on US door and asked for their money, Chinese for example, the US wouldn't be able to pay. In this case, I guess the war and the reset of the system would be only viable option.

Wow what a graph.This is what I call exponential growth!
Scary as hell. :o

Wait till 2017, when Hillary will launch her invasion of Iran and DPRK. You will be having a logarithmic graph, and the total debt will cross the $100 trillion mark by 2020. Well, that is.. if the US Dollar still remains as the reserve currency of the world.

Here a nice comparison between the two.

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/5_0.img_assist_custom-640x4651-620x450.png

They will simply continue with stretching out everything as long as possible. As long as they do that, there won't be anything that will happen. In 10 years from now we'll ask ourself the same question. How can this continue for such a long time without a total collapse?

I doubt it'll continue like that, most world governments are making moves to reduce the budget deficit as it is (the UK is supposed to have a balanced budget by 2020) and countries like China & Germany still have vast amounts of money they can lend out. And either way, even if a country goes bankrupt, I doubt it'll cause "global collapse" like most people think.

I think it also bears remembering just unbelievably massive a trillion dollars actually is. 
 
First of all, a billion dollars is massive.  It's ridiculous.  If you had a billion dollars you could live lavishly every day of your life, for the rest of your life, with no compromises in luxury at all (private jets, the finest dinners, the nicest cars, vacations, etc). 
 
With a trillion dollars, you would have to spend about 50 to 80 million dollars a day to have any chance to spend it all in the course of a human lifetime. 
 
Can you imagine the good you could do, not only for yourself but also for others, with just a lump sum of 50 million?  Now imagine being told you need to spend that much a day, every day, for the rest of your life. 
 
That's a trillion dollars.

If shit hits the fan, I don't know what the US would do. If China ask US to pay, I can only think of one thing: war. That's a pretty big sum. I wonder how the US kept its power with such huge debt.

Same procedure as every two years  8) I am wondering why the congress does not set the debt ceiling at $50 billion instead of increasing the limit every two years.

China will most likely ask for this debt in some future. World may look for new war.
Seems scary but I don't trust USA to win this time. Even Euro may not care for USA this time.

What kind of logic is that? The US has over 300 million people in it, there's a point where anarcho-capitalism becomes ridiculous. And then you have expenses like the army and other things. You're comparing the effect of 1 billion dollars on a single person to the US with over 300 million people and trying to use it to justify how big a trillion dollars is.

Jesus dude.

I doubt China is going to ask the US to repay. They are paying the interest payments, so that's generally good enough - interest payments are a veeeeery large expense of national governments.

First of all, it's an illustration as to how big that amount is.  I didn't say it was a practical method of government.  It also shows just how rich an individual would have to be, to be the worlds first trillionaire. 
 
Second, there will come a point where those interest payments are unsusbstainable and we are forced to create massive amounts of new debt to repay interest on old debt (already happening to some degree).

That depends if the rate of growth proceeds at the rate it does, and also depends on the rate of economic growth in the US and worldwide, as well as the rate of inflation. There are lots of variables here and it is unwise to just label it as unsustainable. If it continued exponentially growing, yes, but that's not necessarily going to happen. I mean, there was a worldwide recession.

No country can pay his own debt, thats the thing. All fiats are all prone to collapse, it's like an ever ending vicious circle. The inflation will never stop because growth is only possible with more inflation.. until you get into a comma.
OP I suggest that you start polishing your Bitcoins too. When people start leaving their own homelands to other countries they will carry Bitcoin way easier than Gold.

If you think about where a large portion of debt comes from and who will have to pay the bill in the end, it is actually not insane for the US to take on more and more debt and be engaged in wars around the globe they see as a necessary evil. For a paranoid people like Americans physical security is way more important than financial security. They believe they are protecting their country anywhere in the world, increasing their national debt to unthinkable levels, knowing that it's so large the world as a whole will have to pay for it. Rome- I'm sorry- the US is defended in Afghanistan and Syria right now and everyone on the planet will get the bill. If you try to stop them you know you will be asked to pay for everything that was ever lent. China alone will lose any credits it has ever given to the US. As they don't want their economy to suffer they are forced to play along. Everyone else in the world will have to play along accordingly, as a worldwide mega-crash will make everyone suffer just the same. Large negative numbers don't hurt your way of life, so keep the party going.

So, yes - we will still be here in ten years discussing over a quadrillion debt ceiling, if we are lucky.

The chart is not good, use logarithmic chart will be more practical. And so will bitcoin's price rise at the same pace due to exponentially rising fiat money supply to support that debt

But they earn money on war! It is not like they waste that money and earn nothing in exchange. They robbed all gold from Saddam's palace, they received huge construction contracts to rebuild Iraq after war etc.
I am not sure if they earned more on this war, probably not, but this operations are certainly no charity.

It's funny how it only takes a minuscule % of all that fiat debt money to flow int othe bItcoin ecosystem to push the price of 1 Bitcoin to $100,000. It will eventually happen, all that wasted wealth will find it's way out into more legit places to reside such as Bitcoin. There are more chances of 1 Bitcoin going to 1 million dollars than the debt ever getting paid back.

I dont understand why all countries with exceptions of those that are way over debted, keep increasing their debt. It just goes up up and up.
I do understand when there was financial crisis and recession after it, that country debts increase, since countries had to spend lots money to boost economy. But right now all countries are long time out of recession and debts just increase and increase and increase.  
Like this when next recession hits, debts will be x10 as now.

Nah, to be able to invade those countries, US needs to spend a big money--from debt or not--just to make sure that everything will go according to plan. Sure they gained control over those territories, but I'm pretty sure that it have returned the money they had spent on wars.

It all depends at whose figures you are looking and or to whom you are listening too. Some countries have never really left the recession and others are already well on their way back into recession. Most figures are so manipulated or rather, the markets are so manipulated thats it hard to know on which figures you can rely. A fact one cannot overlook is that most of the underlying fundamentals already point to many countries being well back into recession mode even though their overlying figures state otherwise.

Europe just announced the increase of their QE program so even more debt will be made trying to stimulate economic growth and the US is not very far from going all in with QE4, negative rates etc.... Japan has also indicated that it will be expanding its own program, which by the way have resulted in little or no change over the past decade even though it has cost them trillions, so you can also expect Japan's debt to increase sharply over the next year and they are already one of the world leader when it comes to debt as a percentage of their GDP.

It's like every central bank is hell bent on beating the markets and we all know how that's going to end. You can fight the markets only for so long before it bites you in the behind. Markets will always return to a point of equilibrium i.e. to a point of balance. You can push it one way or the other but it will eventually return to that point and more often than not that 'return' results in a 'slaughter'.

If you think 2008 was bad then hold on, we are in for the mother of all resets to come. Not now, maybe not even next year. As said, the central banks will go all in so expect more market stimulus and expect markets to make new highs, just do not buy into all the hype. The house of cards will grow taller and taller until....

The debt of the United States is a direct result of that of the US federal reserve. The fed prints every new dollar and loans it to the US Treasury at interest. With that system in place, it is impossible for the US to pay off their debt, unless they abolish the fed.

I know most might have seen this following site but for those that have not go have a look at how much a trillion really is.

With the world in the state it is now the words billion and trillion is thrown around as if it's something you can just stuff in a backpack and walk off with it. Well you are going to need far more than a backpack for a trillion.

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html (http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0)

"The Biggest Scam In The History Of Mankind (Documentary) - Hidden Secrets of Money"

I guess many of you will know this video. I think it fits perfect in this thread as it shows how ridicolous this debt system is.

Recession is when country GDP decrease for 6 months in a roll. Most if not all countries are out. But quite some if not most countries had not come to level of GDP as it was in 2008. Term that is used in those countries is "Lost decade".

I agree with you that next crisis will be much harder as it was the one in 2008. Simply because, China and India made 2008 crysis so mild since they run world economy forward. Next crisis will include India and China and .....

Well, most of us will live and see it.

So it can go down for 5 months, then go up a smaller amount for one month and then down for another 5 and on and on and it will not be called a recession even though the economy is tanking. If that's really how "experts" use it then it is a bullshit metric.

Roughly yes.  Back-to-back quarters of negative GDP growth define an official "recession".  However, note that in these cases, the recession is deemed to have begun with the first negative quarter.  It's perfectly possible that the US, for example, is already in a recession (we don't yet know Q3 GDP let alone Q4 and Q1) and it will be many months before this uncertainty is resolved.

ehhh.... the ponzi scheme is going insane...

Say goodbye to your savings account and pensions, it will be absorbed by the debt black hole.

Same shit happening in EU, they are preparing for QE2:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2015/sep/03/european-central-bank-gloom-suggests-qe2-horizon

yeah, what i find funny, are those random man on youtube that bash bitcoin, by calling it a ponzi scheme

when they are clearly supporting the biggest ponzi in history which is the whole fiat syetm, really ridiculous

...

We have already passed the Event Horizon re being able to pay off our national debt.  It CANNOT be done.  It certainly will not be done as our politicians have no desire to (nor stomach for) reduce our debt.  This will likely end badly: hyperinflation, government default (one way or another), savage taxation...

There are many analysts who can explain this in better detail than I can. 


But, the important issue here, IMO, is how each of us protect ourselves and our families from a likely disaster.

The Americans have spent some $3 trillion so far in Iraq. And the returns have been nothing when compared to the initial expenses. Even now, they are spending tens of billions of USD there in training the Iraqi troops and providing the security, without much improvement. And with the oil and natural gas prices collapsing, it seems to me that the Americans will never be able to recover their investment.

Ah the sheeple. I cannot care less about them, when the wolfs are unleashed, they will all end up bacon.

It's not just the fiat system, but the whole Keynesian ponzi economics theory, that I debunked in my thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1147264.0

Is year quarters, i used wrong words.  if Q2 and Q3 country GDP decrease, country is officially in recession.   Thing is that dont tell all of country economic health.



Q4 barely started. When results of Q3 will be known you can say for sure. But word now you are in recession or not, should not change much. It is just a term that is used. And usually abused by politicians to cut social rights. Every government should act wisely if they will go to recession when GDP in Q3 will be calculated or not.

ressession ressession a country like mine dependand of all portugal will feel its bigger part yes its true its comming down a bit... let us hang to our belts

I usually don't really care about the damn debt though it can affect millions of people. I have to say the number has a lot lot lot of zeros in it. So how do they gonna solve this problem?

You can not solve this.Sooner or later this system will collapse. And then they will try the same again.

Yeah. That's why I don't really care about the damn debt. just asking myself how in my daydream  ;D

I believe bitcoin price will rise faster than the rate of US debt level. Maybe 3-10 times. If 0.1% of US debt purchaser buy bitcoin, the bitcoin price will be very high.

Luckily they can just rise their debt level every single time. The beauty of modern states.. ::)

Yep.  It might take 2 or 3 years to recover from the collapse but then all will be okay again.  :)

Something like the collapse happened several times already in the past. The life goes on nevertheless.

If you guys are referring to the market correction as the possible start of a recession, then you probably have another thing coming for you. A market correction was long overdue, guys, it's not going to cause a new recession this early. ;)

Regardless of whether Q3 is positive or negative, we will not know whether or not the economy was in recession at the time of these posts.  We will certainly need to know Q4 and may also need to know Q1 before we can be sure.

You are right to notice that "recession" here is simply a function of GDP.  An economy in recession is not necessarily shrinking and an economy which is shrinking is not necessarily in recession.

Indeed, GDP is roughly a measure of current consumable output and not one of overall economic size, health, or strength.  When long-term investments are neglected in favour of immediate luxuries, GDP will increase.  When resources are diverted towards long-term capital investments and away from short-term gratification, GDP will decrease.  Independently of GDP, economic health necessitates that investment and consumption are balanced in accordance with the preferences of the people.

That's only 19 of these

https://i.imgur.com/ZQ0Inxc.jpg

Plus a fleet of trucks to carry the other 600,000,000,000

The debt ceiling matters little. This figure is constantly used as a tool to mislead others. Considering that the vast majority of this debt is owned by Americans themselves it makes little difference.

Brilliant, thank you!

So 33.9% of the debt is owned to foreign entities, which is $6.64 Trillion. This number is significantly more manageable for the government to pay off if everyone comes calling to collect. The US people don't have that authority (unfortunately) because technically they authorized all the spending that leads to the remaining 66%...am I wrong?

Still, a debt is a debt. And some get hits hard than other if it really blows up (US military retirement fund for instance, those people get hit double).

I think it is quite unbeleivable how fast the debt has grown from 1990+. Shouldn't they realize at some point that this is only leading to more debt?

I agree that it is just a matter of time before the current fiat system goes down.

China is selling the treasuries as we speak, and Japan is buying them all up. Ah poor Japan, they are printing so much money that they even buy up garbage from the recycling plants :D

This is insane how this keynesian ponzi scheme is heading and its near to it's end.

All countries have severe non payable debts:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Other countries:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

The whole world is prone to collapse due an insane amount of never ending fiat cycle where more and more money is created to try to pay the debt which in return creates even more debt. It's madness. Only Bitcoin can return us to the correct pays of sound money.

The Japanese has to buy the treasuries as it is little brother of America. If it does not follow the orders from the big brother, it will be punished.

The punishment happen whenever Japanese does not follow orders. There are still American troops on Japanese soil.

If this system blows up, i must admit that Bitcoin ore crypto in general is comming just in time to save someone's assets.

Its just a number. Everyone knows that they have no intention to pay it back. Even if you add 10 more zeros it will have no impact since its worthless.
0*19600000000000 = 0
0*19600000000000000000 = 0
You can add as many zeros you want and it's still just worth what you are paying back, in other words 0

That is the spirit. There is no way the debt will be paid back. The debt will be inflated away, as many governments do in the past centuries.

Other countries shouldn't dare to try and collect on the debt, though, as it will damage the global economy severely. Even though the currency's just a bunch of paper that they print.

<in comes the pro-bitcoin parties>

I also must join the camp of those who say that debt celling numbers matters very little, if at all. That is just a number that goes on the headlines if it pleases to make some plays, but in the big scheme of things when it comes to running the country, it must be extended to infinity. There is no other option in the Keynesian economy.

Isn't it pre-determined when the debt should be payed back?

They probably use the money they borrow from other countries, that is worth less when they borrow it a couple years later, to pay the old debts.

Rinse and repeat.

Don't worry guyz, FED will print money again and lend it to some 3rd world countries, then will withdraw them. Surprise USA's  economy is better now!

who are they indebted to??world bank??i think all countries are in debt.

so who do we owe this money? im still confused

That's it. There are no other options for clearing the debt. The US is going to lose its financial lead on the world stage and there is not enough money in the world to prevent it at this point.

It's just as bad in europe. We can't even pay for our own people and then we got massive amounts of immigrants on top of that. The entire western economy is going to collapse and it is going to happen within our lifetimes, possible as soon as within the next 5-10 years. Just a matter of how long they can keep kicking the can.

 Large negative numbers don't hurt your way of life, so keep the party going.


regards

Hmm... actually we are still trade bitcoin back to fiat money.
Not all business owner thing that bitcoin is more valuable than fiat money. You will on 'madness' when your bitcoin price drop from $1200 into $235

and now slightly up to $324

All hail Bitcoin!! You're the best

I agree that all countries are in debt.
They have their own "system" to lend and to debt.

Japanese country lend some money to X country. And have debt money to Y country. But in circle Y money have debt  with X country too. Lol

But it's all about economy. And is not easy like that.
You can handle money when it just $100,000

But you cannot handle money when it goes to $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

System handle it.

Bonds on expiration are paid with the money from freshly issued bonds, so effectively they are rolled over to another period, be it 10, or 30, years.
This is repeated endlessly, each time the cost of the operation is higher. The cost doesn't matter however as FED can print the amount that is required.
This game is called 'kick the can'.

The game is called keynesian ponzi scheme. It's a ponzi scheme where you have a pyramid ownership, and everybody pays a part to the top of the pyramid (the elite), when they run out of money or new participants, they just print up more (confiscating from the already paid out clients) to run the scheme.

It is a complicated and well thought scheme, but it's still a ponzi scheme.

I thought Ponzi scheme is a crime in many countries. I did not realize the US government is acting like a Ponzi scheme manager. Any way, they dictate the law, and it is not a crime for them.

yes, we agree that this type of game is a clearly Ponzi scheme, there is no discrepancy in our posts. The Keynesian economy is based on the assumption of the unending growth as a remedy for everything, and thus the need for creating it artificially leads to what FED does - money printing.
Each government can do that on the smaller or bigger scale, the impact of FED printing press is by far the biggest, due to the dominant position of US economy. 

Bitcoin is the only way that we can have a global form of money that's up to date with current's standards in technology and that is bullet proof again the evils of hyperinflation which assume resources are infinite. Bitcoin promotes saving and frugality instead of mindless consumption because you value your money way more than filthy fiat.

Well, I like BTC a lot, but I am very much into diversification re protecting my financial butt.  We really do not know how BTC will react to a hyperinflationary environment (nor in a deflationary environment either).  So, I would hold some gold as well as even CA$H (the long green stuff, NOT electrons in the bank).

How much of each of BTC, gold and CA$H?  Depends on your own circumstances and views of possible economic scenarios.

But, a denouement is coming...  The 19.6 trillion national debt (way understating total debts) is not payable, and WILL be defaulted on, one way or another.

While debts are transformed into decline in the purchasing power of the dollar and pumping fiat bubble in the stock market. Bitcoin I also received a number of injections from these investments.

Not so sure about that, some of "government people" will prevent any of ponzi scheme (either with design or not) I know all country have their own currency and print out their fiat money selves. But economy is not simply as print money out.
One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is not backed by any country's central bank or government."

One thing that makes bitcoin acceptable and spread worldwide, "Bitcoin is a digital currency (also called crypto-currency) that is  backed by the network of every body on Earth."

This isn't such an absurd notion when the government is fiscally responsible and runs surpluses when the economy is healthy. However, despite extremely beneficial economic conditions over the past 60 years at times, we've never run a surplus when the economy is healthy. Rather than repaying the debt that was borrowed during slow times, republicans insist on cutting taxes during good times. We run deficits to grow the economy, then deficits when the economy is "recovered" because we slash taxes to celebrate how great the economy is. The current debt picture might look radically different if just the tiniest bit of fiscal common sense was injected.

There is some truth in the above assertion. The interest for loan is always higher than the interest on savings. So debt will grow faster.

Thats not what I meant.

There is 2 sides: GDP & Debt.


You create debt easily with the push of 1 button in a central bank. For GDP to grow you need manpower, labour, investment risk, etc.


Thus the risks involved in growing a GDP is by orders of magnitude greater than those of growing the debt.


So if the risk is bigger in GDP growth, then it will grow much slower than the debt. So this means that the debt will outgrow the GDP, and create this global ponzi scheme that we live in now.

So hyperinflation will have to come to wash away this madness.

It is sad the hyperinflation is the only way to reduce the burden of debt. When bitcoin is widely adopted, the government cannot issue debt by printing the paper. Maybe there will be fewer debt problems.

well, unfortunately the reality of the US economy looks exactly like a Ponzi scheme, since early 70s, that is since fully moving to the fiat-only standard.
Believe it or not, but there is too much on stake to stop playing this game. The recent years, with Quantitative Easing (QE) programmes show exactly what I wrote. The economy now is about how controls the printing press. That is at least what happens in the fiat domain.

Let me disagree on these last sentences.
Not sure which evil is worse, but the powers that run the current capitalist-based system (banksters) do not do it for charity. It is actually because of their greed that the fiat based Keynesian system will break so fast.

The current system is not capitalist, its a corporatocracy, where powers concentrated in a few hands (non competitive) due to printed money.

Capitalism is based on competition, not on printed money monopolies.

So we know the debt in 2009, we know the debt in 2017, and we know it matches an exponential function and has done so ever since the sudden change the graph shows in 1974, a strange coincidence, I think not.

Knowing that it doubled in 8 years I still have trouble getting my head around the idea that it will double again in 8 more years, even though it has roughly done that for the past 40 years, it really is sobering

sure, agree. but for the same reason we don't have capitalism in pure form, we didn't/don't have socialism in pure one either. That is why the distribution of the money fails.

You shuld not be liable for the past 200 year old pensioners pensions, but you have to pay for them. It is determined by the government, it is very powerful.

Diversification in both Bitcoin and gold is a good idea, but im not sure about cash. At first when I saw all those supposed rumors about cash disappearing and how governments worldwide had a secret agenda to make it gone within the next decades I would usually laugh and call it an Alex Jones type of tinfoil hat conspiracy, but it seems this is a very real possibility. Im honestly giving cash less and less relevancy on my portfolio and Bitcoin and Gold are looking like the ultimate safe havens.

unless there is a real revolution and Bitcoin is part of it.
The revolution changes the way wealth is distributed and that is usually very violent but also interesting time (if you are lucky enough to survive).
So I would say, interesting times are ahead of us!

Alas.. America will 1000% start WW3 if their ecom starts to falter.. they are already setting up for it in the south sea.
Nothing gets the ecom going like taking out an extra 100 TRILLION on the backs of the next 100 generations to fuel your wars that are really just a solid reason to take out 100 Trillion..

Well a war doesnt really boost an economy, especially if you lose it.

A war is only profitable if you loot the enemy country and then after peace negitiations you demand war reparations.

To my knowledge a war of aggression is illegal under international law, so they cannot demand any reparations, unless they conquer the entire planet, which is very unlikely.


A civil war or mass unrest is far more likely than a WW3. But thats just my opinion.

Not to worry!

The US Gov is hodling the bitcoin confiscated from Dread Pirate Roberts so a few more months of price appreciation and the debt should be easy to payoff, debt snowball style!

Haha, starting a war would not remove the debt that exists.

They already auctioned that, but who knows maybe they will introduce tax payments with bitcoin.

Then they will HODL that, and as the US debt grows, so does the bitcoin price, they will use that as a hedging mechanism to cancel the debt :D

i think as we see debt increase we see bitcoin price increase
faith being lost in usd bad value, i think it time to bring in the big bitcoin gun  ;) ;)

The debt will increase at faster rates though than the bitcoin price.

I dont quite grok the politcs of it,

however, debt is sort of immaterial in a fiat system as 0's are free to add.

eg 100

1000
10000000

10000000000000000000000000

etc.

The US can print its way out of anything. (by print I also me issue debt instruments etc)

Doesnt that lead to hyper inflation eventually though?

As long as you have enough military force to back the status of your printed paper with the 'trust' of the creditors you are on the safe side.
That is, at least to my understanding, what the US have been performing so far with the US dollar.
At one stage, it may be very easy to get the things out of control, which may lead to hyperinflation among other problems.

Yes but they are losing ground in the middle east.

Plus the debt is going exponential, they cant afford another 1 trillion $ operation like the previous wars, so a civil war or some sort of civil unrest is more likely.

The debt the US is in will never be repayed.

They dont understand basic economy.

Problem is just if they fall they take everyone with them.

They understand very part of the economy. They just do not want to pay back debt. That is the human nature. Unfortunately, the US has enough millitary power to make sure it does not pay back debt.

we are already in hyper inflation, notice cost of living going up alot, exponentially.


But to answer you point, no, you just settle you debts with debtors, here you go here is 10000000 Trilion.

Thats' a FIat currency for you, the gov says its that amount by FIat, and the advantage to the US to being the reserve currency, it can print its way out of anything.

The debt was never meant to be paid back.  The debt has been used as a tool by the politicians to buy votes (although that is very short-term thinking).

They cannot pay it back, so they will not pay it back. *

It may take a long time, but the US$ will fail, as ALL CURRENCIES in history have.

Gold and BTC are part of a good defense...


* $19.6 trillion / 320 million = $61,250 owed per citizen, that would be over $125,000 per taxpayer.

Yea but the fiat money is representative of the economy (although not 100% correlation), but it still affects it very much.

The derivative bubble and other ponzi instruments, if the fail, no big deal. But if they start taking the collaterals: confiscate houses, cars, land, etc..

That will mess up the economy + a treasury bond default = no pensions  & no welfare.

You underestimate the enormous damage it can cause when it gets defaulted.

You think they didn't auction some of it to themselves or keep some of it?

Individual people? Maybe.

Collectively keeping? Not really.


I mean even a bureocrat, when he is not in office can do whatever he wants with this money.

Sigh...

I assure you, this is not the case.

"The latest inflation rate for the United States is 0.0% (unchanged) through the 12 months ended September 2015 as published by the US government on October 15, 2015."

Similar things in the UK too, we actually were in deflation for a short while. We are definitely nowhere near hyper inflation, we are infinitely closer to deflation itself.

The house price inflation is very high in UK. The price of house is setting record quarter after quarter.

losing ground in one place, if that is really the case (really you think that the US is losing ground in the Middle East?) and it is not part of the deal, is not yet the sign of weakening. Once it is more like chain reaction it is time to get afraid. For now, everything seems under control, so to say, within the rules of the game that is played. I also wouldn't underestimate powers that be, they are very good economists and know how to bind the rules of the games to their advantage.
the debt (the celling) is still insignificant if the underlying assumption is: it won't ever be paid back.

Or deflation FIRST, then hyperinflation after.  That is a common pattern seen in economic history.  And that scenario is my "working scenario", what I am trying to plan for.

And "they" get a chance to whack you both ways: your stuff is worth less in Round One (deflated), then when you start to hoard CA$H they whack your money in Round Two (hyperinflation).

It is important to remain vigilant and DIVERSIFIED!  Because this will not end well....

Avoid debt too, it's a killer.

Well that is not deflation what you describe. Many economists dont know the definition of what deflation is and i see this in economy shows as well to be mistaken.

What you describe is a pump & dump scheme, deflation is not that.



Deflation is when everything costs less , in parrelel with everything else.


You cant just make wages go down, and then print money to pump up the stock market, you cannot call that deflation. That is more like theft.

sure the official interest rate looks low, but govs politically cannot move that up so much. They however are into QE and similar in a massive way which is hyper inflation.

Look at the house price increase in alot of countries, it has gone 100% in the last year or two. Where that's extra money coming from, well wages did not go up, so it through money printing via debt instruments such as loans. 99% of people simply do not understand the money printing part of the inflation equation.

Look at the costs of goods and services going up much much more than inflation of 2% or whatever it is.

If prices aren't hyper inflating, then we don't have hyperinflation. Does a gallon of milk cost the same today as it did yesterday? Then you don't have hyperinflation.

Deflation is not here yet.  By my "working definition", deflation is a scarcity of money, where prices do indeed go down.  Deflation may very well arrive if interest rates go up, banks accounts are seized or robbed (Bail-In), stock market crash, and/or other causes.

Wages can indeed go down in a deflation, see the 1930s in the USA.  "Deflation" of another sort happened in the USA from about 1880 - 1910, as technology came along and LOWERED prices of consumer goods.  In that case, "deflation" was a good thing.

Typically, inflation/hyperinflation happens AFTER a deflation, when the authorities get scared...

Deflation means different things to different people.

The price of housing has risen a lot in many countries. But the inflation figure reported is very low. That is because house price is not included in the price index, only the maintenance cost is included. So the inflation figure is lower than we feel.

I read an interesting article the other day in regards to inflation and why the inflation figures that are reported are flawed and or not correct. The article specifically dealt with food inflation.

It essentially boiled down to the fact that many manufacturers changed the packaging of their products while at the same time decreasing the content of the item while the price stayed the same or only increased slightly. So [just an example] you might have been able to buy say a 750ml bottle of some kind of sauce for say $2 a year back. Today that same sauce is now in a 700ml bottle and the price is say $2.10.

So according to the inflation data where these products are monitored the price went up from $2.00 to $2.10 so an increase of 5%. But this is not a true reflection of the actual price increase. Before the sauce worked out at $0.0026 per ml while at the $2.10 price it's now $0.003 per ml which gives you an actual true price increase of 15% instead of 5%.

Yes, deflation for me is monetary deflation:  the supply of money shrinks. (in a keynesian system due to defaults, as the debt is the money itself)

In bitcoin we wont see that, we will see however price deflation, due to strenghtening: denominated things in bitcoin will shrink in price : both wages & expenditures.

We already see that: as bitcoin price went up, faucets pay out less, but advertising on faucets is also cheaper.

Uhh we almost definitely will see monetary deflation where the supply of money shrinks, Bitcoin being a deflationary currency is one of its critical foundations. Monetary deflation isn't as common in real life, if deflation does occur it is usually price deflation just due to a shrink of the economy and heavily reduced consumer spending.

Shit, how did we spend so much in 2016? I mean, 2017 wasn't exactly a parade either.

Bitcoin's money supply doesnt shrink, it grows in a logarithmic curve and it stops at 20,999,999,9769 BTC

Only the rate of inflation decreases, that is not =/= to deflation.

Keynesianists like to say that rate of inflation decrease is deflation, when its not. They are not familiar with the terms, and these are PHD economists.

It's not you ... or me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joITmEr4SjY

You're misunderstanding me here. Once all the blocks are mined, we will definitely see a shrink in the money supply, but that is due to the users and things such as coins being destroyed and lost. There's no way for us to get around that. We will definitely have deflation once blocks stop giving BTC rewards.

There will be deflation any time coins are unrecoverable due to lost keys or death of owners who leave no contingency for private keys in their estate planning. Once the last fraction of a bitcoin is minted, there is guaranteed deflation unless you're taking the position that a private key will never be lost under any circumstance. (I personally wouldn't bet on that.)

It actually does, beside the inevitable lost of coins by accident (which will always happen statistically) you have to add in the fact that people are actually burning coins to shrink the supply. I've heard some whale stories sending BTC to dead addresses just to make them basically disappear  (it's the equivalent of an eternal holder)

Hard to measure, and hard to prove, he might burn it for 100 years, and then the grandchildren find the priv key in a secret box, which the owner forgot about.

I`d not say this is deflation. This is shrinking money velocity, the effects are identical, but its not called deflation.

I dont blame you even academic economists dont know the difference.

For it to be deflation, the supply has to really shrink, by protocol. So you would see 21m coins, then 20m, then 19m and so on...

So bitcoin is not in deflation. It just has a shrinking money velocity :)

Might want to update the topic title OP. 
 
Zero Hedge has a great article out about how the real debt might be 3x what they are reporting, with no way to stop it from going further. 
 
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-08/us-debt-3-times-more-you-think-former-chief-us-accountant-warns-americans-have-lost-

Debt & usury are for the rabble. Letting it get out of hand = the peasants are at your mercy. Money isn't real, it's stale, mouldy crumbs for pigeon people. You can always just start a world war to wipe clean all social memory of how it all came to pass & 'reset' your system of control. Remember to always give those pigeons a 'dream' to live for after a gorefest though & be super nice to them, telling them how important they are, otherwise they *might* catch on.

If I have too many coins, I will just hold it. I will not burn it to reduce the supply. It is my coin, if I burn it, it will just increase the value of other people's coin. The total value of my coin will not rise much after the burning due to the reduced number.

Not hard to prove, it's mathematically certain unless you're taking the unreasonable position that no fraction of a bitcoin will ever be lost after the minting phase of bitcoin is complete. It's already happened, and will continue to happen. Once the last bitcoin is minted, that's not "shrinking money velocity" (that term doesn't even mean anything, but I assume you mean decelerating inflation), that's deflation, which is falling prices (often) caused by a shrinking money supply.

This is counter-intuitive. What's the logic here? It seems highly unlikely that any value gains in your holdings will be greater than the value destroyed by 'burning' coins. The same effect could be realized by just keeping control of the coins and never spending them. Either way, the coins are out of the market but control is maintained by the owner, so there is no actual unrecoverable loss of assets. After all, the market doesn't differentiate between coins that are sent to an unrecoverable address and coins that are controllable but never actually spent. Whoever told you this story is either blowing smoke, or a complete idiot.

I know that a permalock is possible, I`m not denyit it. And I know that eventually, all bitcoins will be locked (if the lock is irreversible, then probability tells us that in infinity all bitcoin will be locked)

However I`m talking about now, and how can it be definitively proven that an address is really locked or not. It can't.


So the only way to measure this is from the money velocity viewpoint, by looking at the transaction volume daily, and you will see that it will shrink eventually.

House price can only go up where more money is printed by issue of debt instruments.(where velocity remains the same)

There is no way Fiat represents he economy as to value.

Eg x trillion added in houseprice, negligible renovations or house building.

In theory it outght to be, in practice is not.

Stupid keynesians argue that the money supply must grow with the economy size, to avoid clogs in the financial sector.

Because they think that if you dont spend every single penny of your savings and don't rely on slavery debt for sudden urgencies, the economy will just not function.

That is a lot of debt, basically the one year income of a High-End Middle class member of society
Watching some of the Republican and Democratic Debates the only one that seems to be targeting the Debt Ceiling and lowering all forms of spending including the military machine is Rand Paul.
Either way it will be interesting to see if someone will try to push that debt down.

The debt will not be pushed down in any meaningful way. This happened in most countries in the world. Most governments have budget  deficit year after year. There is no way they will pay  it back. They borrow money from central banks. There is unlimited supply of money from central banks. Governments use inflation to reduce the debt burden.

So basically it's a game between governments and banks. Where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. When will this game end? And maybe more important question is there a way to end that game?

Don't raise the debt limit, start cutting spending. Like eliminating literally dozens of federal agencies that overlap one another. Like cutting all foreign aid. Like making all these other countries we defend for free, pay their own expenses. Like cutting the massive regulations that strangle job creating and cost billions to enact, that are the idea of a minuscule percentage of our population.

This is one of the reasons why I hate modern currency.
Every dollar that exists is owed to someone.

Yes, technically the US dollar is a debt, but in reality when it comes to the physical money in circulation the line between money and a debt instrument is quite blurred. It's quite true with most other things, but not all modern currency is debt. Don't get me wrong, it's still a massive flaw with fiat currency and something Bitcoin handles much better, but let's not make a massive generalisation here. If I give you a gold coin worth 5 USD it's still modern currency worth US dollars but I doubt you would hate it.

Bitcoin is ultimately deflationary. After 2140 it is 100% deflationary because no new coins will ever be created, and the supply will keep naturally shrinking as people make mistakes and lose them (I doubt anyone will be willing to burn Bitcoins because by then 1 Bitcoin will be worth several billion dollars).

I think I better understand what you were saying now. As long as bitcoins are being minted at a high rate (as opposed to the later phases where blocks will be fractions of a bitcoin), any losses due to locked addresses will be extremely insignificant compared to inflation. So yes, presently, it's negligible.

The price of Bitcoin will increase and goods will get cheaper. Don't forget the fact that you can divide Bitcoin into many decimals.

So problem solved.

By 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created so people will probably move on to other crypto currencies.

Yep, there are 3600 bitcoin minted every day, and how many people lose their private key? 1-2? With usually less than 1 btc on each address.

Thats nowhere near that amount. Usually people store their bitcoin on multiple addresses. Unless Bitfinex or Kraken loses their key, I can hardly see your scenario relevant until the next 10-15 years.

This sounds consufing.

You mean miners move on to other crypto currencies, since they have too or people (speculators) etc.?

Fees will most likely be miners incomes, since block reward would be so low.
I think that bitcoin would still be as profitable as it is today. it takes just one big bitcoin farm to 51% attack a sha-256 altcoin. So they will most likely move on to new algorithm. Most likely my bet would be that PoW coins will be superior only to some point in the future. Beyond that point PoS or other methods would be far more superior.

At present, PoW is the most fair and efficient way to distribute the coin for long time. In PoS coin, the coins are distributed in one go (ICO) or very short period. So it is unfair to later comers as the only way they can get the coin is to buy. For the PoW coins, you can buy/rent rigs to mine. You can also buy cloud mining service.

What about clams, they were distributed to every doge lite and bitcoin owner. And as for other PoS coins like nxt for example has better distribution than bitcoin already. PoS coins are poorly distributed at the beginning(except for clam, which had a pretty good distribution early), but they should be pretty evenly distributed in 3-4 years time if there is an active community behind the coin. imo there are currently 2 good well distributed coins out there. One is clam and other one is nxt.

The will lift this to $20,000,000,000,000 or $21,000,000,000,000 very quick as usual.

A lot of noise but there will be no impact. This is now going on since some years and there was no effect at all (despite higher debt levels of course)

Remember the last crisis almost wiped out all banks, and it was only the FED's quick intervention that saved them.

The next crisis will be the big one. Which could come as early as next spring, or after US elections (as no politician wants crisis on their election day)

Until a few of the lenders want payment.

The current situation cannot carry on indefinitely and sooner or later the house of cards will fall.

Expect bank accounts, any investments and pension to be wiped out.

Dont keep large sums of money in banks, hold cash, precious metals, bitcoin etc.

Like china ?  They do hold alot of US debt, and if they demand payment and US cant pay, it will put extra tensions between them. They already have big tensions between them.

But the normal bond investor will definitely be wiped out (so pensions, savings accounts, and other low risk investments will be wiped out)

And China will care because?

China has an ambition to to kill off the US petrol dollar/reserve currency and replace it with their own.

They are accululating tonnes of gold every month with the possibility of launching a gold back currency, like every reserve currency before the dollar sooner or later the US's turn will come to end.

https://i.imgur.com/TcZTsMd.png

Well they invested billions in the US and havent got anything but crappy low interest on it. If they cant recover their capital they will be angry.

However it might not affect their economy, but it will their diplomacy.

If China would sell all their US bonds that could collapse the US economy, but I dont think China wants that, after all they do exports to the US.

So they have a strange relation, they both hate eachother, but they both depend on eachother.

its a pity. The bad thing is that whenever there is a crisis in a certain country or they need some donations, America is usually the first to give grants in billions. I didn't know they are that deep in debt. Soon the American dollar will collapse and be overtaken by other currencies such as the euro and above all the might BITCOIN. watch the pace

The Euro? I don't think so, the Euro is screwed up too... if the dollar crashes, the Euro is not going to survive. Similarly, if the Euro crashes, the dollar just can't survive like nothing happened. It only takes 1 big currency to fail to start a devastating domino effect and all of them are on the edge.

Amazed people still are unware of how much debt the West is in.

Check out the realtime US debt clock -

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

A real eye opener  :o

Just under $58,000 debt for every man woman and child and $156,000 debt for every tax payer.

Not a lot of people can buy houses with cash these days..  ::) According to this article --> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/median-home-price-2014_n_4957604.html

...the median house price in the USA are $188,900 and I should say, a huge part of that debt goes towards housing and bond payments. This will always remain a big problem with

house prices being that high. How much of that debt are being paid by rental income or businesses generating jobs and paying salaries? Not all debt, is bad debt.  ;)

Your 60" UHD 3D television bought on credit, generate zero income... that is bad debt in my opinion.  ::)

I dont have any debt, privately.

However publicly people take loans on my behalf without my approval, and make me pay for it: its called fraud.

They just got bigger pails to bail the water out.

There is still a hole, the ship is still sinking...

All the major currencies are interconnected. When one fails, the other will be affected. That is mainly because of the banking system in the world rely on each other. Only the one outside existing banking system will survive. That is the bitcoin.

honestly,i never hear about this,and this is shocking me  :o
if america have debt as much like that,than from where they loan it?anybody can tell me?i never think before that a big country also have debt,and they also give some loan to other country,it cannot believe..  ???

I am not sure if once you introduce FIAT monetary system there is a way back to commodity backed money. Unless US economy totally crumble that it.
But again, then I would rather expect a war than economic reforms.

At the moment they borrow it mostly from American pension funds and some bond funds. They also borrow about 1/3 from foreigners. FED also lends a lot.

FED stealing money from Americans.
Apparently Americans OWE the fed 19.5 trillion dollars.
A debt that will never be paid off.

PoS is not a secure system, it has been demonstrated in the events that we saw with NXT where they even considered a rollback to try to fix the mess that happened with all those exchange hacks. This alone should make you think. The fact they even considered a rollback should raise big alarms.

PoW is still king and will stay king.

The US government owns:
42.2%   U.S. indiviuals and institutions
17.9% Social security trust fund
11.6%  Oil export
and some others.

U.S government debt:  $ 18,152,809,942,589
Chinese government debt:   $ 5,328,705,984,026
EU government debt:   $ 13,559,663,144,281
Russia government debt:  $ 248,623,032,338
Brazil government debt:   $ 1,479,837,128,028

Governments don't want debt to be paid of.

The rollback is not done only with PoS, it can also be done with PoW coins. As long as most miner agree, a transaction can be cancelled. This is called hard fork.

Bitcoin is still very vulnerable to an attacker with deep pockets.
The government or even many banks could easily intervene in bitcoin and hard fork it (to create additional coins just for them). At today's rates it would cost roughly 220 million USD to get equipment for 50% of hashrate.
For you and me that is a lot of money, for them it is pocket change. They can even print the money it if need be.

in wall street, yes.
in exchange environment with TIER restriction (and bots with NO STOP), no.

real rules, no cheating available without the price.

He's not talking about on an exchange. He's talking about the infrastructure that supports the network.

I dont think bitcoin can be hacked so easily.

If an attacker spends hundreds of millions to go for a 51% attack, then the network will always choose the longest chain, and his hundreds of millions will be wasted.

And for bitcoin companies its always important to remain transparent, there is no excuse for shady stuff in bitcoin, because the community reacts quickly.

These rich guys can buy a lot of bitcoin, but if the price is too high, many people will sell including the miners, that will put a limit of the price. If they want to sell short, we will buy the coin.

Guy with big pockets buys lots of Bitcoin.. It would just mean they are bigger investors. There's nothing that's going to stop bitcoin at this point. We have more chances of being hit by a giant asteroid and dying than the Bitcoin network/protocol being compromised.

u guys are aware that the "profit" a central bank generates gets passed on to the government treasury?

Well at this point I would say there isn't any profit being generated by the central banks, and most of the government treasury is just additional debt...

Is profit necessary anymore, for governments at least? Most governments choose to just create debt anyways.

its not rly profit since a central bank cant make profit (but most ppl agreed to just call it profit)
99 billion got send to the U.S treasury in 2014 for example

USA is going to get wrecked very soon... I'll be looking forward to the 20 trillion debt mark.

I think the interest generated by the Fed will be paid to the US government treasury. So the Fed lend money to the US government for free.

We'll see that happen before Barack Hussein Obama leaves office

The federal debt has already grown more during Obama's first six years than under all previous U.S. presidents combined
the number of americans receiving food stamps remains 45% higher than when he first took office.

With obamaconomics, yes we can!!

how it works: central bank lending money to a commercial bank for X interest -> commercial bank lends it to governments/private people for X+Y interest -> the government gets X - costs the central bank needs to keep running, reserve assets etc. but pays X+Y for their debt.

this "every dollar issued by the fed generates interest debt which never can be payed back" is a myth

kinda sad to see that the bitcoin community is build ontop of such conspiracy theory nonsense spreaded who have all their knowlage about economics from either bolgs or youtube videos.

Great to know this for the new year  ::)

Will be interesting now in Switzerlend.Referendum to end money creation  by commercial banks,All  in Central Bank hands.It is more  and more stronger movement in Europe,to limit banks to be only financial services

USA is diffrent.FED is in fact group of biggest private  banks

This is probably a stupid question, but economics has never been my strong suit. Does the debt even matter? The US GDP is like 18 trillion a year. Also I thought I read that the US had originally decided to create a debt intentionally in order to build credit (like way back in the late 1700s and early 1800s). The debt keeps going up but so does GDP does it actually mean anything?

Can you provide a source yng more accurate and trustworthy? yng pictures you show does not prove anything. although hard to believe, but the US does have the capacity to make a loan of it, because their economy is stable.

Ever heard of Google, trying searching.

America's debt is no secret and there are plenty of sources available to confirm.

www.usdebtclock.org

Depends what you call stable, most jobs have been shipped to another countries..

And thos happens globally, rich countries ship the jobs to poor countries, and the playing field evens. They will lose life standards in favor to poorer countries.

"The Federal Reserve System's structure is composed of the twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, numerous privately owned U.S. member banks (...). The U.S. Government receives all the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid, and an account surplus is maintained. In 2010, the Federal Reserve made a profit of $82 billion and transferred $79 billion to the U.S. Treasury."

the "ownership" of the Reserve Banks by the commercial banks is symbolic; they do not exercise the proprietary control associated with the concept of ownership nor share, beyond the statutory dividend, in Reserve Bank "profits."

The jobs are coming back to the US. There is also a capital flowing out of China and flowing into the US.

Hardly, the money goes where cheap labour is. They might flow out of China and go into India or other poorer countries, as China has already increased in living standards.

Corporations always move where the cheapest labour is.

Debt ..... anyone ever repay ...

It's unbelievable they even reached this level.
Their governement is so ignorant about it. Instead of solving the problem they try to pass it along to the next generation and so on.. and so on.

The problem is really insolvable as we reach higher and higher world populations, and the corporate power centralizes, resulting in fewer jobs.

So you have an ever increasing global population, and an ever decreasing job pool. Of course wages will go down, it's just basic supply and demand.

The government is controlled by those who will benefit from the increase of the debt. So the debt will increase.

I don't mean to investigate your private life but... Where are you from?

Yes their government is just a huge bullshit. But so are all governments of Western countries. I don't like USA but can't blame them here, any "developped" government is already totally corrupted and in the hand of private interests. They don't give a fuck about the debt as long as they're the ones getting the money.

http://www.eudebtclock.org/

This unbelievable not only US , EU also have astronomical debt!

That is a hell of a lot of debt. I bet those people in debt haven't bought Bitcoin cause they waster their money on some other shit.

I don't understand how they could have that much debt. It is just soo much.

Dude, it's easy. Banks control the world that's all ^^

Congrats to the US, you have just crossed over the $19 trillion debt mark. 

Obama is really working out great for you guys, easy to see how he got a second term  ???

Wow thanks for the link.

That was my main point, the whole world is at debt, USA is just crazy but at this point I'm not sure it matters a lot xD

$1B :
http://i1.wp.com/positivepressagency.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/trill-7.jpg?resize=640%2C425

$1T (imaging that pile of cash multiplied by 19!)
http://i2.wp.com/positivepressagency.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/trill-11.jpg?resize=670%2C299

Yeah, job coming back, and money is going to.... Well banks and huge companies as always  ::)

no problem here....we are not running out of "0"'s

I do worry about never having a balanced budget. Would be nice to see that number atleast go sideways versus constantly up

US must proclaim Bankruptcy and return to gold standard..
Or you will have economic crisis in few years, but worse than anything you ever seen.
This is probably scenario for many european countries also..

Ahahah xD

You know it's good irony but it's not false at all.

Problem with dematerialisation is that everything became more... Abstract.
Where is the limit? And who defines it?  ;D

Too much money floating around will destroy the world economy. The QE from US and EU cause over investments, this will destroy the value of many commodities.

Basically they lend time, the time of their citizens.
The debt ceiling equals the gross national product.
At the moment it is about one year of work, of every us citizen, for free, in order to nullify the debt.

US also should not make wars around the world,
All that military machinery will economically destroy ordinary people..
Only way for weapons industry to live is to wage wars, and they don't care about people it is obvious.

???
Welcome to the pleasure dome of Ignorance.
And I thought ISIS would be the last to use such a shabby excuse...
Should they let people die who are in need of help?
Werent those ppl from iran just crying out that THE WORLD should not only watch?
now what?

Truth is the us citizens have to pay for the safety of people around the world. thats called responsibility.

If you think the US involves itself or starts wars across the globe for the benefit of the countries people then you are naive.

There is only one reason the US gets involved - natural resources such as oil, gold etc.

There are several examples in modern history of the US sitting and watching while genocide was carried out as there was nothing of value to plunder after the conflict.

I just don't understand why they have so much debt, it is impossible to pay back there is not enough money in the world to repay all the debts!
It is only so the banks can make money, The people should rise against this.
The time has come our country's took over the production of money again, how is it possible that someone else controls that..

Some people say u need debt and loans in the world what do u think can we build a world without debt?

the US makes around 6-7 trillion $ tax revenue each year (including state,local and federal taxes). So its possible to pay back these loans with less spending and higher taxes.

I think it has been mathematically proven to be unpayable.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/it-is-mathematically-impossible-to-pay-off-all-of-our-debt

What are you going to do, stop paying the military, social security?

Every year you are spending a lot more than you are earning the reversal of that will be painfull and the public would spit their dummys out.

most of this blog post ist nonsense.




if the US wants to pay for a  broad social security and a bigger military then the following 20 countries combined then they have to increase taxes... or cut spending to a level where they dont generate more debt.

That is called stupidity!
How can you know what people really wants in those countries when you watching CNN? Before those interventions those countries were mostly good and prosperous now they are in hands of extremists..
Also i see only problem for Europe now! I could thought this is deliberately done for destabilization of whole region..

Do you remember Nato bombing of Yugoslavia?
Do you really think those people really wanted democracy delivered via bombing?
You don't know how many innocent people were killed during bombarding.

US weapon industry need constant wars and that is clear..
If you don know US have been involved in more then 20 wars after ww2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

How come one peaceful nation have interest around globe, they want to bring democracy to people..?
Multinational corporations and exploitation of natural resources of those countries, are main cause for interventions and building military bases for future missions.

Yeah and with stop trying to go to war every year like it's some kind of tradition. And stop letting the bank do whatever they want...

They deserve it. And it proves the US has a flawed system that doesn't work. It's the american dream.

Unfortunately most of americans dont realize this fact :7

I just don't think this way! No one deserve this!
US people is just in their great dream..Freedom and security..
But they must wake up before it's too late. Many Americans are without homes now
i wonder when will the rest of them realise where are they going?

Most of the Americans know that they cannot pay back the money they owe. Their grand children have to pay.

They're responsible for letting a shitty government ruining such a great opportunity!

Just because of few failed schemes. Commonly it can't be said as america has a flawed system. If so people should stop comparing with america.
The debt has never been high like this but this time it had reached the people just because of ongoing election campaigns. I think it won't affect
them bad. Sure they will have alternate plans to overcome or reduce it in a short time.

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Good news for everyone!  :o :o ;D

Hahahaha xD

I like your reaction! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH if you think it gonna work then it's all good.
They gotta have some kind of Plan B nah?

If the American debt is too high and it cannot afford to repay the debt, it will cause the world financial crisis.

The American debt is in US dollars. The Fed cannot print unlimited amount of bills to pay it back. There is no problem at all.

Thats huge debt,19 trillion dollars? What would be the plan B? Possibly to declare War? Print more dollars or to increased more taxes? But we hope America can manage it as the have more capable and great leaders to solve it.

Strange how your last 2 presidents have clocked up the dept more than any others in history, Obama being the worst.

Still amazes me how people believe their "leaders" have all the answers and will fix all the problems.  Dont forget when it does all go tits up none of the ruling elite will go hungry but you may.

http://www.prep-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NationalDebtSpreadsheet.png

I agree, the debt is huge but I think that America will never repay it. I don't think that the leaders are very worried about it, it's just the way that its economy is being functioning for a while now.

its really massive amount of debt,and i wonder how can america have so many debt,for what purpose that money?and where they get loan?
i know every coutries have debt,but i never see debt as much like that,and i love this fact :

But the people in that country have more than $60,000 in wealth in the house and other properties. So they think they can pay it back.

No they dont, most people's houses are mortgaged and part of the debt.

And its $60k per man, woman and child so equates to short of 1/4 million dollars per household of 2 adults 2 children.

The fact there are still people out there that think $19 trillion dollars debt isnt a problem kinda shocks me.

You know for a fact, that theres no chance in hell we will ever pay that back.

Damage is already done, just hope people can see the alternatives and hope bitcoin gets picked up more as we get near halving..

I really see no solution, even if we did tax the rich..etc.