Bitcoin Forum

As I read through posts here, I see numerous people railing against taxes. However people feel about taxes (nobody likes them), it is the obligation of all citizens to do their best to comply with the law and pay their taxes. You MUST pay capital gains tax if you profit from Bitcoin. Period.

Apparently these tax evaders believe that because they personally have some moral objection to taxes, they can stiff the government while everyone else pays their fair share. I've seen posts here calling those who do properly pay there taxes 'sheep', etc... Well, complying with the law doesn't make one a sheep, it makes them a responsible citizen. If you want to change the law, then you are welcome to fight for those changes in a democracy.

While anyone with any reason knows this, here are the facts:

• Taxes have existed throughout the history of all civilizations. That's just how society works.
• Everyone has to pay taxes, whether you like it or not.
• Capital gains (profits on Bitcoin) must be reported and tax paid, by law.
• Tax protesters and evaders who associate Bitcoin with a method of tax evasion may very well be its downfall.
• If you cheat on your taxes, but I and everyone else pays, it kind of pisses me off - and the same is true for the majority of people who honestly comply. Nobody likes a tax evader.

So, tax protesters, you may continue to whine and scream all you want, but, guess what? Everyone thinks you're insane, and you'll most likely get what's coming to you, sooner or later (may be years).

I strongly suggest that these people be put in their place. Tax evasion and Bitcoin should not be interlinked.

 State is not that necessary in the modern world. It was usefull, but no more. I will not pay my taxes for shit...

Lol!

 First of all.... I am a Constitutional Attorney and I can tell you this" TAXES ARE ILLEGAL!"
I.R.S. is a collection agency for the FEDERAL reserve which needs to get TF out of my country!

Places like SILK ROAD give bit a bad name, get your facts straight ;)

Anyone who does pay TAXES? is indeed a "Sheep"!

It pisses you off? Lol! Get over it!.... Learn the law.

and BTW.... I do not sail on any CITIZEN "SHIP" if you do? That's your own fault.

The common audience of BitCoin instantly think of "oh, that is that money for that drug site". Thank you media!  >:(

You must be one bad attorney! The courts have ruled, over and over again, on the constitutionality of taxation. Do any basic research, but I suppose you don't believe in research, preferring to just make up your own facts in the delusional reality in which you live.

If you think you can get away with evading taxes indefinitely, maybe you should take a look at what happened to the gazillion tax protesters who came before you. They are all deeply in debt, in prison, or otherwise 'spanked' in the hardest way imaginable. I don't think it's until people go to prison that they realize the government, representing the will of the people, has true power. Your flimsy arguments won't hold any water in court... they never have.

I suppose my largest objection is people thinking they are somehow 'better', 'different', or 'exempt'.

THANK YOU for making my point!

Are you that confused? State is the collective. Without government, we'd have smog in the air, dirty water, pay-to-use parks, child labor, slavery, unsafe food.. Oh, and private armies constantly at war with each other.

Not to mention the fact that laws would be up to vigilante justice. In other words, I could come shoot you if your music was loud, rape your wife, etc... But, I suppose the rule of law and due process aren't important, just let everyone start killing each other like in the dark ages.

Good idea!

I like your point OP, sadly this community is full of a lot of crazies right now and this type of thread just attracts them.

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity. There are indeed some real nuts in the Bitcoin community, and it drives me insane. I just wanted at least ONE response here that had some basis in reality, and you've given me that. Now I know not EVERYONE here is delusional.

You are a terrible attorney then I'm guessing because let me tell you, taxes are not illegal at all.

Actually that's precisely the sort of things that governments/government agents are good at. They, similarly to local mafie, claim a monopoly on that "right".

These are opinions. Not well formed ones, either.

As I read through posts here, I see numerous people railing against slavery. However people feel about being slaves (nobody likes that), it is the obligation of all slaves to do their best to comply and serve their master. You MUST do as your master tell you. Period.

Apparently these escaping slaves believe that because they personally have some moral objection to working their ass off for nothing, they can stiff their master while everyone else does their fair share of work. I've seen posts here calling those who do properly live as slaves 'sheep', etc... Well, complying with your master doesn't make one a sheep, it makes them a responsible citizen. If you want to change that, then you are welcome to fight for those changes by working within the system, such as asking your master for more freedoms.

While anyone with any reason knows this, here are the facts:

• Slaves have existed throughout the history of all civilizations. That's just how society works.
• Everything you earn must be properly transfered to your slave owner, by their law.
• If you don't do as you're told, but I and everyone else do, it kind of pisses me off - and the same is true for the majority of people who honestly comply. Nobody likes a free slave.

So, anti-slaves, you may continue to whine and scream all you want, but, guess what? Everyone thinks you're insane, and you'll most likely get what's coming to you, sooner or later (may be years).

I strongly suggest that these people be put in their place.

I think that the reason many of us have to pay high rates of taxes is that other people attempt to evade taxes and in order for the government to get its necessary taxes it has to take more money from the people paying it.

With that being said, I don't put particular effort into paying any taxes on gains like this for one reason and one reason only. I personally would be fine would paying taxes under two conditions.

1) Everyone has to pay some taxes. I've heard over and over again the large amount of people in the USA who don't pay taxes, and I don't believe it should fall on the higher    income people to pay taxes for many services that they won't end up using anyway [such as public schools, since many children of higher income families do go to private schools]

2) Our government learns how to spend money. The government of the USA is absolutely horrible and spending money and that is the main reason why they are in so much debt. They need to learn how to budget and how to spend money properly without going so far into debt every year, its eventually going to destroy the USA. I don't want to give up so much of my money to people who don't know how to spend it.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand your reply. Are you saying taxes are like slavery and as such people shouldn't pay taxes and should try and rebel against it even if others think they should?

If so your quite delusional if you think your government will be able to provide you everything without you paying a money. For example if you live in the US, if the US had no army whatsoever, and no justice system there would be many problems that would make our society much less safer than it currently is.

Chocolate rations are up this week!

It should also be noted that bitcoin is no more a "tax-evasion scheme" than cash or gold. At any rate, if you convert bitcoin to any substantial amount of fiat and dump it in your bank account in a jurisdiction which imposes capital-gains tax (some places, e.g. the Isle of Man, do not, AIUI), then the OP is legally speaking correct that you will have to pay tax on these profits: the tax authorities can find out about this money. If you are in a CGT jurisdiction and don't want to pay it, don't dump sizable amounts of fiat into a bank.

Governments don't provide anything: they take from peaceful people using violent force, by definition. An organisation which does not do this is not a government, and any incoming payments it takes are not taxes.

Government is force by another name and taxation is robbery with violence by another name.

I have no idea what he's talking about either. It's clearly an inverted version of my original post, but inversion doesn't result in any sort of logic. Mostly, these people just don't want to pay taxes, and will rationalize their non-compliance using whatever flimsy arguments they can manage to compose. They must be young, privileged, and naive, as they definitely don't realize what can and will happen to those who break the law. These arguments might be fine on a message board, but won't go *anywhere* in court!

I suppose the 'attorney' who claims that taxes are illegal sums it all up. Anyone can Google the legal precedents for themselves and - from that - derive the sanity of these people.

The arguments he is using could be used to argue for slave ownership.

I will encourage people to not pay any taxes. More so if they can get away with it.

I'm not, because I don't need the government to provide me anything.

There are ways to deal with problems without using violence you know.

Sorry I'm not familiar with that phrase. Care to explain?

Why do pro-gov people always sound like they're describing BDSM rituals?

Crazy. I think I'm done. No arguing with you folks. Maybe when you grow up you'll realize that government provides essential functions that no other entity can, or will, provide, creates and enforces the law, defends the country, and protects the rights of citizens, particularly minorities who would otherwise be at the mercy of the majority.

Whatever man, you can tax my brainwallet when you pry it from my cold dead neurons. I'm out of here.

Chocolate rations: All the good has been used up for now.

It's a reference from 1984 by George Orwell. Sorry for confusion.

Oh ok, unfortunaly I have not gotten around to read that book yet, but it's on my todo list :)

You'll never own anything until (for long) until you comply with tax laws. Glad to know you're too good for taxes though. Everyone else is just a bunch of 'sheep' or 'slaves', clearly not as special as you.

Government has done a terrible job of protecting people from the debt of central banks. In this case, government has been used by a minority, central bankers, to attack the majority.

Perhaps when you grow up you'll realize that human ingenuity is more powerful than the force and fraud of government. Example: Bitcoin.

And here I'm reminded that I'm speaking with a bunch of teenagers, gotta remember to keep things in perspective. You people don't even know what the real world is like. Maybe, someday, when you move out of your parent's house, you'll realize the truths about society.

[/quote]Oh ok, unfortunaly I have not gotten around to read that book yet, but it's on my todo list :)
[/quote]

Highly recommended. I'd also suggest Brave New World by Huxley.

Same old nonsensical libertarian catch phrases. True libertarians must get awful annoyed with you people.

Out of curiosity, why are you on a Bitcoin forum if you have more faith in government than in technology?

It could be just that: curiosity. Or just plain old trolling, of course. What would an internet forum be without trolls? :)

I knew him to be a troll. I just have some time to burn on this lovely Saturday. :)

Did I say that? I never said that. And Bitcoin is not anti-government. I'm interested only in technology.

Just because government doesn't always get things right doesn't mean we should abandon all attempts at trying. There's nobody else to do the things that government does. Bitcoin doesn't, in any way shape or form, replace the essential functions of government. If you weren't so privileged, perhaps you'd realize how essential government is to empowering people to lift their lives and communities out of poverty, as opposed to selling their children into child labor and condemning their entire line of descendants into slavery. Public education, for instance, has enabled opportunities for the lower classes to rise - so that, you know, people don't get hopelessly trapped at the low end of society.

But, I suppose you'd have to be there, once in your life, to understand. And, no, you are no so inherently superior to everyone else that you - too - can not be thrown into poverty and your children condemned to a life of a little to no opportunity (what happens when they aren't provided education, and instead put to work at age 10).

If you guys don't pay your taxes, you'll see what I mean eventually.

Trying to equate Bitcoin with any sort of political philosophy, or any technology with any political philosophy, is a huge farce.

You know bitcoin is going mainstream when imprudent socialist kids have arrived to discuss how bitcoin shouldn't be used for tax avoidance. Got to love it.

The only political philosophy mentioned by Bitcoin's creator was the libertarian philosophy:


He also saw Bitcoin and government as being mutually opposed:


Anyone with any money in Bitcoin is making a choice between Bitcoin and government. I choose Bitcoin. YMMV.

Or he's an IRS employee. ;)

Wow, too bad you don't know the definition of socialism. People like you are a barrier to adoption by the mainstream. I am now thinking that maybe every teenager should be forced to live on the streets, in poverty, for one year of the life, to understand why we've developed the society we have. We didn't do it 'just because'. It evolved, over time, as a solution to the problems of society. Read some history.

Just saw this. Hilarious! I guess he went (or goes) to a private school, has never driven on a road, and doesn't need the police and justice system to protect him from murderers. And he certainly can't imagine why everyone else isn't born rich too!

+1

Thank goodness I'm not a US citizen or permanent resident then. ;D

You gotta love the way a show like Boston Legal carries that trace of a libertarian streak, periodically sticking it to both Republicans and Democrats, as they both deserve. Pertinent to this thread is the episode in which Denise (Julie Bowen) is being persecuted by the IRS and gets arrested over a $400 arrears. Now, the IRS is nasty, but mostly probably not that nasty. How often would they chase you up, cuff you and cage you over $400? Surely even the IRS would just impose a penalty fee and demand it. Now, if they audit you and expressly accuse you of tax evasion to the tune of $xxxxxx, that's another matter entirely. And while we may think the OP is a troll and morally disagree with what he said, there is no doubt that you could be in serious trouble if the IRS is auditing you for tax evasion...

Make others suffer just because you have, why?

People generally get in trouble with the IRS because they continue to use banks. Bitcoin solves that problem. Hence, threads like this by people of the strong opinion that we should all be servants to the State. Bitcoin makes authoritarians nervous.

statists are so cute

I proposed a temporary bit of suffering so you understand the real and sustained suffering of the masses that are not born privileged, and thus have some sort of humanity in your bones, instead of 'I'm inherently superior to everyone else because I was born into wealth'.

Anyway, one of government's original functions is to protect the rich from the poor. Likewise, they protect the poor from the rich. There are many more poor people though, so check the French Revolution for an example of what happens to the rich during a revolution.

It's their squinty little eyes when they're yelling "COMPLY!" that makes them so adorable.

I am not in any way arguing for tax evasion (way too risky IMHO), but none of your 'moral' arguments hold water.

Why?

There is no automatic connection between laws, morality and responsibility.

So has slavery.

The existence of tax evaders clearly proves otherwise.

That some will use bitcoin for this purpose is inevitable. Learn how to deal with it instead of thinking moralizing about it will make any difference.

That's the tax mans fault, not the tax evaders fault.

The state is one organization claiming to represent the collective. Notice that the concept of the state hasn't changed much if at all since feudal times, only the way the heads of state are selected (in some countries.)

I can't wait until a gang comes and takes your Bitcoin, and rapes your bunghole in your anarchist fantasy world. No government to turn to, and guess what - you're outnumbered!

Or maybe it's the threat of violence when you're out of arguments that makes you all so cuddly.

Except in your privileged fantasy world, it's not actually a threat, it's a reality. That's what happens when it is every man for themselves. You'll learn this, sooner or later.

So you openly admit you hope violence happens to those who disagree with you. Why should we trust any of your 'moral' arguments?

To all: Regardless of your opinions, I just realized MiningUnited is running a Ponzi Scheme (a classic and obvious one where he claims to send back more Bitcoins than you send to him).

So aside from his tax protesting, he's headed to prison for THAT alone. Ponzi Schemes are illegal MiningUnited. As a supposed attorney, I'd think you know this, but then again - you claim taxation is illegal, so who knows what you know.

You don't have to trust me. And your response in nonsensical and unrelated. It's a diversion from the issues at hand, which you can not compose a reasonable response to.

I obviously was making a point. About reality. About the nature of humanity. Ah, nevermind.

there is such a vision of a governmentless society that is voluntary

please check out this

https://www.youtube.com/user/AdamKokesh

a couple of years ago i would've agreed with you

I am aware of this perspective, but don't believe it would work in the real world. That SAID, I do appreciate that you can back up your philosophy with more than utter nonsense.

OT: I'm still upset about MiningUnited's crap. I mean, the last thing this world needs is another Ponzi Scheme. Therefore, I am composing a report to the proper authorities. I believe he needs special attention from the 'Bitcoin police' as well. His site is so obviously a ponzi scheme it's almost too brazen to believe, as if he thinks he is above the law and can't go to prison. EDIT: And, unlike many who toss around the term 'ponzi scheme', I am correctly applying it here.

And MiningUnited deleted all his posts where he claims taxes are illegal and he'll never pay taxes after I outed him in the thread discussing his Ponzi Scheme anonymous 'business': https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179917.0;topicseen .

Way to stick by your argument!

if you don't think it can work, that means you think people cannot be lawful without guns pointed at them.

we do not need the state. we can reproduce all of its functions better in a free market. who will protect you better, someone whose livelihood and income is based on protecting you, or an officer that must meet his quota of tickets and is paid by the hour, not by the protection (as if anyone has been helped by a cop).

OP is right, taxes do have to be paid.....If you don't evade them correctly.


The media gives bitcoin a bad name. They mention its use for purchasing illegal drugs more than they do tax evasion.

Well, there is the point that bitcoin really isn't a special tax evasion tool, any more than cash is. Except in a few ways. On TV shows about customs and Border patrols they always catch the odd smart-alec who has earned a bunch of cash in their private business, has not paid any tax, and is trying to fly abroad with all the cash. Customs seize the cash. Bitcoin user? Not affected. ;D

I am quite sure you just described civilization today... smog (perpetration of the petro-dollar), dirty water (fluoride anyone?), pay to use parks (National parks shut down because of sequestration?) child labor (although not directly but the public education removes 33% of a child's time from his family, and indoctrinates them into good institutionalized workers?) slavery (a portion of your labor is taken without your consent via wage taxes?) unsafe food (see Monsanto GMO?) and the private wars? how about the US military used to make damn sure the FRN stays the worlds 'reserve currency' aka the petro-dollar?

EDIT: ...And, you are absolutely free to shoot anyone for any reason... even now, the 'law' can only REACT to the action once taken.

Honestly I believe that most peoples idea of how government works, or at least the legal system is mirrored from shows like BL, or CSI, or whatever. Shows everyone working for the govt is good, and intelligent, and cool... 'cept the IRS, they will hunt you down and do nasty things to you, even if you're the star of the show... Thats TV 'programming' for you...

And don't forget all the cuss'n that these bitcoin people do.  There is a lot of dirty words that I read in the internets.  It doesn't reflect well on all these bitcoins for all the cuss'n to be going around.  I don'ts know why people can't talk all civil like.  That feller that posted at the beginning does't have much to complain about since people cannot evade taxes with the bitcoins.  It's clear as day that the peoples can curse all they wants on the internets.  It don't look pretty though.