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Please read and answer only if you know something about this topic, stupid posts not regarding topic or posts from people who dont know about the issue are worthless.

So do you belive (the ones who know something about the topic) that the gold price is manipulated? I want a discussion here because i dont know any other similiar forum where i can raise the issue. How do you know it? Because people on the internet told you so? And that the facts interpreted in one way point to so?

I "know it all", the FED germany repatriation problem, the faked tungsten bars few years ago, the China buying of gold, the LIBOR riging, the supposed FOREX rigging the Comex supposed manipulation of the gold price etc. The price of gold in future ranging from $5000 to $50 000 USD...

Do you think its possible? Will the price of the gold explode in the future?

Whats true, whats possible, and whats maybe false...:

1) FED germany gold repatriation problems. This is 99,9999% true, two options: a) FED doesnt have to gold b) FED has the gold but doesnt want it give back and expect some BIG event in the near future, following which it will publicly tell that it will keep the gold of other nations. This problem is real. On the other hand FED can somehow handle this fraud, return it all to germany, the fraud even obvious to some, will never be really exposed and will continue for several years again...
2) The gold bars in FED vaults (if any) are tungsten fakes. I belive this also, its a reasonable thing to do if the previous one is true.
3) China is not reporting the correct number of their gold holdings which are higher. Yeah i belive that also, why wouldnt they, but i think the real ammount might be exaggerated.
4) The goal of manipulation is to support the role of $ as the reserve currency (and not to tempt states to buy gold reserve instead of dollars). This seems also possible...

What doesnt seem to add up:
1) The gold manipulation is promoted somehow mainly by the people connected to the gold bussines (selling gold etc.), i dont belive the mainsream media a lot, but why should i really belive the sellers of gold either? They have their own conferences and it is possible they themslves created this "conspiracy theory" to keep the price of gold up?
2) The gold manipulation should have been ongoing for DECADES (!!) Do you think it is really possible for it to be going this long...? (on the other hang look at Bernie Maddof...)?
3) Jim Rogers (you should know him) says that he doesnt belive in the gold price manipulation, and he seems very wise, experienced, wealthy and honest... so he should know... Also i think Marc Faber doesnt belive in it either (as far as i know)?
4) The predicted future gold price seems to much dreamy and it gives me a vibe of a "get rich quick scheme", which doesnt ever work... On the other hand, bitcoin (something new and really not physically existent) has appreciate like 84 times just in the year 2013, so i gues gold could get to the $10 000, $15 000, or even $50 000... (thats "just" 38,4 times) But still i have a hard time beliving it...
5) People say all the time that china might emerge with a gold back currency and is buying into gold so much for this reason, but is it true? Isnt china just buying gold for diversification away from dollar? Isnt china also buying real estate around the world, companies, other currencies... Isnt gold buying just a part of this goal to diversificate the state wealth? And didnt "gold bugs" just use this to falsely imply the reason behind buying gold. Why would china really wanted to back their currency by gold?
6) Paper claims on existing gold in COMEX are much higher (like 69 people are "paperly" owning the same ammount of 1 oz of gold. Is it possible? People say that comex vaults doesnt have all the physical gold that is beeing sold at the exchange. But doesnt COMEX sell future gold contracts, that means the claims on future mined gold, so its quite clear  that they cannot have the gold yet physically allocated, this is normal futures trading as far as i know, nothing special... Or doesnt the comex sell gold futures?
7) If it all pops, does it really mean that the price of gold HAS to go so high? Why just not triple or double?

So what do you think? I would love to belive that the GOLD is really manipulated, and i would love the see its price to sky-rocket, but there are serious problems with this claims...
Whats your claim on this?

Sorry for the worthless post, I just wanted to add that I am also interested in these questions. Thanks for bringing it up.

Well ok, if you are interested than whats your take on this? What do you think about it? Whats your oppinions?

BTW i also thought about next thing that doesnt add up... If the price of gold is manipulated, than what about all the mines that are producing it... i belive its in their best interest to make the truth come out, so why hasnt it? Or are the price suppresion people "stronger" than the gold mines?

i don't about all these, but yes i think manipulation is going on..

1. Yes only seller tells about manipulation but they are the smaller ones. The bigger ones don't that. They simply trade. And why do you think these seller would want to get higher prices, they are making profit from the margin in buy and sell price, not from the prices going high. That would be around the same at low prices, i think margin will be lower at high prices. So, its not in there favor.
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2. Yes its been up for decades, but only now people have started noticing it. So, now is the turning point.

3. See there will be people against it and there will be people in favor. This happens all the time, i am in favor.
4. In my opinion there won't be a sudden jump in its value in normal market condition. Like you wake up next day and it just reached the moon. The sudden jump will accompany with some kind of economic/market collapse. And fear in the people will drive the value exponentially.

The thing with the bitcoin was that it was owned by very small no. of people and those people believed in it. Thus they were able to make other believe and that rocketed the price. In future when it will be owned by masses such a exponential growth will not be possible. Really i dont believe in saying it will go to 10000 this year... 

Related...

I've watched the silver prices much more closely than gold. There is manipulation going on there without a doubt. If you've been watching silver, you know this. The regular spikes in London and NY are far too many to be coincidence.

But, I've not compiled that information. You have only to look at the charts over time to see it. It's pretty obvious.

Agreed.  Now, how do we game the manipulation? 

Well the 1st point is just totall nonsense :-(... I cant belive you can write such a thing... (because when someone can be so wrong in one thing, what about the other things...)...
Who are please the "bigger ones"? Thne sellers would like to make an atmosphere of belive in manipulation so people would be buying more gold today, more gold sold, more profit made... Margin will be in absolute numbers the same if not bigger, the higher the price the more they can tak in profit, the higher the price, the more demand there is, the more demand, the more theyll sell, the more they sell the more they make...

The only good point is the reminder that companies make profit on margin (spread).

Yeah i heard about silver manipulation aswell... But dont know too much about this... What is the predicted future price of silver? On gold its somehwere between 5 000-15000 Oz. Heard even 50 000 per Oz :-). What about silver price?

Also what do you think about the argument that comex doesnt have all the physical gold it sells? As far as i know comex sells (only?) gold futures? So if you buy gold future you cannot have it physical yet... theres no conspiracy in this as far as i understand it...? Or do they pretend to sell also physical gold (that they have, but in reality they dont)? As far as i know comex sells futures?

So, then read this: http://goo.gl/eDpC6H (http://goo.gl/eDpC6H)

(orginal source is here: www.paulcraigroberts.org (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org))

Should be easy enough, get the word out.

There is plenty of points to suspicious trades. besides, he seems to be quite knowledgeable (argument from authority). And it's all very reasonable unless you are totally paralyzed by "normality bias".

From wikipedia

Thanks for the thread, I am wondering the same. Just a while ago I stumbled across some well presented material of why the gold price must inevitably explode, only to find out the presenter runs an online gold shop.. So I don't know what to believe.

Thanks for sharing. It contains this piece:
which I haven't been able to verify. Anyone?

Given that the central banks of the world pretty openly collaborated to manipulate the price of Gold back in the 60's, one can only assume that if it suited them they would be manipulating the price now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

if you want to be part of the problem, you sell contracts when the comex opens, and buy when it closes. you massively outperform gold by performing this action mindlessly on a daily basis. it is the best proof of manipulation that there is. check out www.gata.org for good info on the hows and whys of gold manipulation. it is slowly becoming mainstream, bloomberg had a piece a few days on ago about the blatantly obvious price manipulation that has been happening on the comex for decades now.

here you go:

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/sites/default/files/users/u2/gold-overnight-vsdaily-price_0.jpg

from the horse's mouth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NAL0C6BO-4

(i used to run a scrap gold business, hence my interest in this thread : )



Christian confirms what many analysts and GATA have been alleging -- that there is not much REAL physical metal -- but testifies that there is actually 100 times the REAL physical metal being sold based on the much more "loose" definition of what "physical" means to the bullion banks.

http://www.gata.org/node/8478

So and what do you think about the physical to paper gold ratio about 69...?

Isnt it due to the futures trading...? Because if comex sells gold futures its clear and understandable that it simply wont have all the physical gold in its vaults...??

Well im sorry but someone of us is incredibly stupid. You didnt give ANY arguments to support your statement that gold is not manipulated. I at least told something meanigful why YES it MIGHT or NO it is NOT, you didnt give any... I really dont understand posts likes yours, since they only bring confusion to the people... Ill take it by points:

1)
Well ehm... the price is made by several banks each day (twice a day), i think its called the "London fix", as far as i know, its only paper agrements, but this is the place the majority of physical bullion sellers take their price from , so no... paper gold market DOES set the price even for the physical... OF COURSE (!). You didnt know that :-(? You dont understand the mechanism...? I was in a coin shop, and the were monitors on the london fix price, according to the price they were selling the gold... You really dont undestand this? How old are you for god sake!?


Oh... Oh my... :-(... Well first of all, the price is set in the london fix "deal", which is somehow connected to the COMEX market, where "paper gold" is traded, and even when you can make a call for physical delivery of gold, the majority doesnt and they simply "hold" and trade the gold in the form of "paper certificates" (or something), so no, the gold isnt physically delivered the majority of the time. I dont know the correct price manipulation technic but you surelly didnt prove that it isnt there even with this statement, its like fractional reserve banking, the have X ounzes of physical gold, but they MIGHT trade XXX ounzes of gold (x times higher then what they physically have or even might be able to deliver in future (in future contracts)). And since the majority doesnt need/want to hold physical, the hold only paper claims... Well i can give you Thousand of paper claims that i own BILIONS of $ and that i will give you billions of dollars, even though i dont have them :-), but hey, you got your paper claim...I really dont know what you wanted to say with this sentence. You dont understand the mechanism? So let mi put it this way your wrote the prices CANNOT be manipulated, well then OMG they might be quite EASILY manipulated... The questions is, are they? (and no, they really can be, the possibiliti exists, you lied).



OMG!!! Do you really mean that...Have you been drinking, or dont i understand that, or am i that brilliant to be the only one th realize that :-D! You are kidding me! So the fact that you can willingly sell and or buy, or not, its the indicator that theres no manipulation :-D!?!!?!? Omg im so much disapointed by the bitcoin community :-(. This simply isnt a sign, you will have to belive me. If its manipulated and you dont know about it, then yeah, surrelly, you think the current price is the REAL price made by the free market discovery "method", so why not sell or buy if you wante and belive the price is "correct"...

What exactly did you wanted to say with this thread? Because you didnt say anything, even when you thought you brought up something, you didnt, and you just made confusion.
So for example the situation with german gold... you see this all as a "hoax" and thus it wont have any impact on the future price of gold...?

Yep, that would be about it.  Most actual physical trade is out of London.  Much of what you read about gold price manipulation is generated from people with ideological reasons to say so and a penchant for fantasy.  That's not to say everything is false, but a nugget of truth is embellished and morphed into a far bigger "theory".  At the end of the day, it would be very hard to manipulate gold prices more than a few %, there's too many interested parties and too much information freely available.  Example, registered stock, owners etc publicly available.  Its not the price being  manipulated, the information is.  Anyone claiming $5k, $15k has no basis for that analysis, they are just trying to pump the price because they hold and wish the price to go that high.  I could make a perfectly sound case for current gold being grossly overvalued (in brief, if its a hedge against inflation, price has far outpaced inflation and priced in another decade or more)

Before its used as a counter example, LIBOR rates where manipulated fractions of a % for gains or cut loses on daily movements, not wholesale shifts of the market over medium or long term.

Treasury rates, Sup-Prime Mortgage rates, USD/CNY exchange rate, Gold price until 1971, Greek bond interest rate until 2010,...

No, it shows nothing in regard to the short position. What it shows is your profit if you had simply bought and held gold, versus your profit if you had sold every morning, bought every evening. There is no better proof of manipulation that the massive outperformance of this technique, because you're frontrunning the manipulation. If you do the opposite (buy in the morning, sell in the evening), you'd have actually managed to have lost money despite the fact that gold went from 250 bucks to 1900 bucks. You may prefer not to believe that the price of gold is manipulated, but that's another issue. The lynchpin of the financial system is the dollar, so interest rates are manipulated via derivatives (which measure in the quadrillions, and over three quarters of that market is in interest rate swaps), and so is gold, because these are the 2 things central to setting the value of the fiat US dollar.

The cognitive dissonance is impressive in its way. You can actually see Jeff Christian telling you clearly that there's 100 times as much "paper gold" as there is physical gold out there, and people prefer to believe that the gold market isn't manipulated.


I can understand not wanting to see that every financial market is a travesty, and I can understand paid shills, lol.

holy fracking sheezit3cicles.  u.s. treasury is a dead man walking

An almost shocking decline in deliverable (registered) gold has taken the ratio of open interest to deliverable gold to 112 to 1.

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.co.nz/2014/01/comex-warehouse-potential-claims-per.html

Well i was worried about that... Theres so much disinfo and liars, even in this thread, some posts are just stupid, maybe the author doesnt speak that good english so there might be some misinterprations. I dont know about the libor that much, just heard it was manipulated...
On the other hand you really cant take the inflation number which i reported by the government (so you cannot use it to calculate that the gold is currently overvalued).

Its really hard to tell who t o belive :-(.

For example Peter Schiff videos used to be quite interesting for me, and i belived almost all he said, but then i saw his video on bitcoin vs. gold and it was obvious that he tries to downplay the value ov bitcoin and pump the gold price, i belive he might be frightened by Bitcoin as a competition to gold. So after this i know i cant fully belive even Peter Schiff.

Than recently i had read a "new proof" about gold manipulation, and it was the slam in april (or which month) of 2013 when the price has fallen from 1600 to 1300. They said that there was a significantly more gold in the comex vault before the crash, and it was presented in the light that someone had to knew that the price of gold will be getting down so they prepared the gold... (at least i think this is the way it was presented), but if you think about it, when you want to sell a big ammount of gold you probably have to deliver it to the exchange beforehand... and that probably what happened, but it was presented as a manipulation... :-(.

I really dont know who to belive, i would love to see the gold price skyrocket but there too many lias for me to fully belive that.

what for example do you think about another proof of gold price manipulation and thats the fact that in the april crash of 2013, there were massive ammounts of gold pumpted into market at the same exact time, which goes against the seller, because if he wasnt really retarded, he had to know that the price will significantly drop, and he will earn less from the gold selling, so why did he do that...? Why didnt he sell in smaller portions in a longer time period...? Did he REALLY NEEDED to sell it all at once..? That seems again suspicious to me. What do you think about that? Was the volume of the gold sold in april 2013 really that big, and was i really dumped at the same time (or is it just a dissinfo?), and what other motivation could the seller have (other than to manipulate the price)??

This is again one of the stupid posts around here...? I would LOVE to belive that the gold si manipulated, i still a little bit more belive it than dont. But why do you imply that i think that GOLD is NOT manipulated? I never said that, i just said that i would like more information, because even when i quite belive in the manipulation, i also think the gold sellers might have a strong interest in making up such a story or just exegerrating it. You didnt understand that? Im really not a person to whom cognitive dissonance applies to :-).

There is more than 100 times "paper gold" to physical gold. I don't know how to put it much more clearly than that. Those people who have futures gold contracts - that "paper gold" - believe that they will be able to convert those paper contracts to physical gold should they so desire. If less than 1% of them actually tried to do that, it would break the market. I can quote you numerous central bankers clearly telling you that they manipulate the market, for example:

"Central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise." ~ Greenspan, July 1998

"We looked into the abyss if the gold price rose further. A further rise would have taken down one or several trading houses, which might have taken down all the rest in their wake.  Therefore at any price, at any cost, the central banks had to quell the gold price, manage it." ~ Sir Eddie George, Bank of England, September 1999

Read more at GATA's summary:

http://www.gata.org/node/10554

Ok, i have heard about that 1 physical oz has around 100 paper "owners". I understand that. But isnt the meaning which this implies a little bit misinterpreted by the gold sellers? As i said before, lets say that it is true and there are far more paper contracts than there is physical gold (people say so, but i cannot proof so or otherwise, so i will belive it). But as i said, you can trade FUTURE gold contracts on COMEX (as far as i know). Futures are a normal "thing" and (exist in the financial world) also on commodity markets (like wheat etc.). That means that there even cannot be currently as much physical gold as is the paper, since the majority of the paper gold claims (i just think this, i might be wrong) are future contracts... That means that you are knowingly and willingly buying gold that has not been mined yet, but will be mined in 4 years (for example), thats the essense of future trading as far as i know.
So the thing that there are fewer physical gold oz really doesnt play a role here, since the majority of contracts are futures... Only the gold sellers are trying to spin it to fact that this is some kind of manipulation, but no, it is just future contracts... Do you understand now?
The only possible way of manipulation (if the majority of the contracts are futures (as i belive they are?)), is that even these future contracts are SOLD heavily over the real ammount of gold that can be mined in future, that means that in the next 3 years for example there will be around, i dont know, 1 000 000 Oz of gold mined, but currently the comex is selling around 2 000 000 gold Oz futures (3 years contracts), even though it might know that it wont be able to deliver it... Do you understand now?  The fact that there are 100 paper claims for one CURRENTLY existing 1 Oz gold doesnt mean anything, if the majority of the claims are gold futures...

So what you are telling me is, that comex is selling WAY too many GOLD FUTURES, which he knows, even at this time, he wont be able to deliver in the future?

Im not a native english speaker so i might have problems spilling my mind out here, thats the reason why we might not understand each other correctly...

This may be of interest here: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/01/interest-rates-are-manipulated-2/
Scroll down to the section on Gold and Silver
Also: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-19/how-to-keep-banks-from-rigging-gold-prices.html

It seems Gold and silver market prices are set in a similar fashion to LIBOR.  Open to similar kind of abuses.

Interesting development. I last heard of the German gold problem a few months ago.

It also shows the Germans are also unhappy holding large amounts of US$…which would mean 'backing' their economy with US$ and ending up at the whims of the US economy at large, rather than a solid asset (gold).

From what I've read in German media, the German gold in NY was bought there locally in the post war era, and it has never been in Germany. Same for the gold in Paris. The Germans wanted to store their gold as far west as possible during the cold war era, and since then it hasn't been moved inward. The gold moving from Paris has not been part of the US payment, it's separate. And the gold from the US faces some logistical challenges like insuring the transfers, validating the quality of the gold, etc.

Now that's what I've read, could be cited incorrectly or wrong information in the first place. But this certainly does explain the situation without the need for the US being gold-broke.

Bank of England gold vault video (December 2012): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTtf5s2HFkA

This is a direct quote from one of the futures contracts:


I.e. these contracts are written with the understanding that the buyer of the contract can ask for delivery of physical gold.

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/precious/gold_contract_specifications.html

If 1% of the buyers asked for their gold to be delivered, there would be no comex left, and true price discovery might happen for gold, absent the most powerful financial entities on the planet (central banks and private banks) manipulating the price for their own ends.

I've counted approximately how much gold there is in the video. The left of the room contains 3 rows of 15 pallets of 6 levels of 4 layers of 20 bars each. The middle of the room has 10 such pallets and a newly started one. The right of the room is never fully visible, so I estimated it to 8 full pallets. That gives 30240 bars. Each bar is 13.4kg, so we are looking at 405 metric tons.

In the vid it was also stated that each level holds 1t, which means the average bar weighs only 1000kg/80 = 12.5 kg instead of the 13.4kg I used, but I think they just rounded the level.

It also states there are multiple rooms, that the UK officially holds ~300 tons, and that they hold gold from other nations.

Anyhow, if those bars are real, there is about 400 tons of gold in this one room, which seems to be in agreement with stats.

The question in regard to the BoE gold is not so much is it there (assuming those bars aren't all full of tungsten, anyway), more who does it belong to?

http://www.goldmoney.com/research/research-archive/Untangling-gold-at-the-Bank-of-England

Central banks remain steadfastly unwilling to allow independent audits of their gold reserves. It's known that they're involved in gold leasing, and rehypothecation; the UK is the only place that allows infinite rehypothecation, which is why a lot of financial crime is centred in London.

More lol

http://bildr.no/image/c3VpQ2dZ.jpeg

That chart reminds me of the price of bitcoin, lol.  It looks like the crimex might be out of business soon; but I'm not holding my breath, as we've seen gold in backwardation before, and the criminals in charge have somehow manage to keep it hanging together. I sincerely hope they go bust, because their efforts to control gold are entirely due to their efforts to support the USD, and central banking is the system that enslaves every human alive. The credit bubble is now bigger than it was pre-Lehman, so 2014 should be an interesting year, financially.

Oh... :-D you belive that this ALL is soooo muách complicated that it will take 8 years... :-), like REALLY? And it is so complicated that all the fed managed to sent back is 5 Tonnes, really :-)... Well... i dont belive that ;-). Even thought agreed, states and their employes are probably really slow in general... but this slow? In such and important issue? Really? Accompanied with denial of even seeing my (germans) gold in the first place? With melting bars, to meet some fuckign standard...? Really :-)... Well i think the germans might melt it again (refine) just to check quality of the gold (like china did years ago), so i dont understand the melting in USA in first place, not mentioning that the Germans have probably more experienced refiners, so it would be better do it back in germany anyway.... You really belive all that... :-)?

On the other hand, is the situation really that bad the FED really COULD not manage to find somewhere in a year more than 5 tonnes? And i belive that germans made their repatriation claim beforehand, so FED had at least 2 years to manage to find gold (if it doesnt have it), but all it has managed to find are 5 tonnes... Thats really weird, either FED is totally incompetent, or there is some other problem (but still, 8 years is a deal breaker!), or the situation is really that bad that FED simply even after hard trying couldnt put together more then 5 tonnes... Thats scary.

Well know, you have just proven you wrong and me right in the first place... That means that future contacts can be made into physical deliveries AFTER certain date only... So even if comex had currently 1 OZ physical, but would sell currently 1 000 000 Oz FUTURE contracts really doesnt mean much, if the future contracts are due to physical delivery in 5 years (or i dont know for how long periods are these contracts made)...

The more i read here the more i belive that there really IS a conspiracy. but on the side of the GOLD sellers telling others that there is gold price manipulation... :-).

The argument of CURRENT paper gold claims exceeding the CURRENTLY avaiable physical gold really doesnt play a role here, if the majority of the claims are future contracts.
Dont you understand that?

Well, lets see; so far you've seen various central bankers telling you that they manipulate the gold price; you've seen the mechanism they use to do so, via the timings of buying/selling in the comex; you've seen Germany unable to get more than a tiny proportion of its gold back; you've seen the claims for paper ounces of gold reaching new records on a daily basis; and I've seen a new addition to my ignore list, on the basis that you can't wake up those who are only pretending to be asleep.

Why does this issue focus on the CME or COMEX when, again, most actual physical trade occurs in London.  The price quoted there is what the market says it is.  The fact some futures are priced on exchanges in New York and Chicago doesn't give much grounds for manipulation.  Further, those futures assume delivery, at which point as you point out the buyers take possession of the commodity.  Now, you can believe that there manipulation, in open view of everyone who then all choose to ignore its happening, or believe that the information leading you to this conclusion is manipulated to orchestrate a reaction. 

Well no offense, but just using the term "awake" makes me feel good beeing added to your ignore list :-).
And you still didnt answer my question about the fact that selling futures is a normal bussines and the only way the manipulation could take a place is the fact the commex sells ¨WAYYYYYY too much future contracts that even in the future cannot be met...?

The fact that comex hasnt sufficient physical gold currently REALLY doesnt mean a shit for god sake, if the claims are just future claims starting somewhere in the future, if someone fells to realize this than hes stupid.

I belive in many conspiracy theories, i dont like the lies on mainstream media, but i equally dont like stupid people who are not able to think for themselves, and this involves BOTH the majority of the "common" people, but it involves also a lot of people from conspiracy circles who belive everyting that is told to them. For example Alex Jones is simply a BIG fake. If someone wasnt able to realize this themselves until¨this moment than i feel sorry for them. Because, belive or not, the fact that the mainstream media lies, doesnt not even a little but mean that the alternative sources (as the gold sellers) might not lie as well... Thats why i wanted to ask MY questions to realize and think about it MYSELF (!).

You might be lied by the central banks, but also by the gold sellers, who are spin doctoring the facts. Welcoming to the real world.

About some of the claims from central bankers that the manipulate gold prices, nobody said it this way concretely, the said something similiar, this might not be the current stage, it might not apply these days, the words might have been misinterpreted, it might be lies as a whole, or even if it is true, and there is some manipulation, and it went for decades, why couldnt it go for another decade for example... And im not stupid, if i would have to wait 10 years for my gold to appreciate than im not really interested and will buy it before it really gets HOT.
The supposed economic collapse had been predicted in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009... and we have year 2014 and still nothing :-)... Yeah i belive it will happen eventually but it might take several more years.

So i gues i should apologize for asking questions and the courage or rather impudence for even trying to think for myself :-), "Gold is NOT manipulated!" (mainstream media!) "Gold IS manipulated" ("Goldbugs" and goldsellers!) How dare I not belive even one of these sides! How dare I to think for myself and ask questions, Keep Stacking! :-/.

Mikcik,

Why do you think it's ok to sell something you don't have?

What if I offer to sell you a car now, just so long as you don't take possession of it for 5 years. Interested?

OMG! :-) you dont get it :-D... Are majority of people speaking about the gold manipulation like you...?

Google Futures+market

or look here

Future markets are a normal thing in a financial world... its no conspiracy...

(you people didnt know that?)

Check here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_exchange

I just read another German article on the gold import in a magazine (Capital January issue, http://www.capital.de/).

They say the German gold in the Fed's reserves originates from the Bretton Woods System. Germany had an export plus and thus built up a gold reserve with their excess currency. This gold has been kept at the Fed ever since, main two reasons being easier accessibility (if Germany needed some foreign currency) and father away from Russia (cold war).

Currently 31% of 3391 tons of German gold are in Frankfurt (1051t). It's supposed to go up to 50% by 2020, an increase by only 644 tons. Of those 644, 300 are coming from NY, and the rest from Paris.


This takes the wind out of the sails of a few arguments made in the above articles. Namely "why gold from Paris? --> US broke" is wrong, as there is simply gold pulled from both places. Also "Fed can't pay quickly --> US broke" is wrong, as this move is unexpected / unprecedented, no one considered that gold one which must be ready for shipping in decades, and the process of delivery taking some time is completely understandable.

You managed to side-step my question.

Let me ask it again - Do you think it's OK to sell something you don't have?

OMG!!! OMG!!! No i did not sidestep your question for god sake!!! Do you even know that futures trading exists!?

And yes i think it might be a good idea, i dont know about some stupid cars, you cannot buy cars on futures, but you can buy for example wheat, and belive it or not, its voluntarily, and belive it or not, people willingly participate in it. When you are farmer, and you want a payement for your future wheat harvest for example, and doesnt want to risk that the crops will be bad (the harvest will be small) next year than you can sell it today, for a fixed price you had agreed on, and the risks it transferred on to someone else who WILLINGLY buys so. All parties participate willingly(!) This is NOT bad, this is not MANIPULATION, all parties participate willingly and yeah, you as farmer might lose, or the buyer of wheat futures might lose, nobody knows, nobody knows the future, but they are all grown up man, so they can WILLINGLY decide if to participate or not.

Now please, answer me, did you know that futures exists? Did you know its a normal common thing in financial markets, and its even handy? If it wasnt, the farmers for example wouldnt trade in it! Did you know about futures trading? According to your post about some cars probably not, because buying cars on future doesnt make much sense and isnt even possible, thus you really dont know much about gold manipulation if you didnt even know that futures exists and its a normal thing :-(... for your info i too didnt know what exactly it is, but i had found it out, and realize that the gold sellers calling on market manipulation pointing to the comex selling something he does not have IS NOT a sign of manipulation for god sake!!! There might be manipulation, i think personally there is, but for god sake you cannot make point or proof it by pointing at the comex selling more than it has physically... ITS  CALLED FUTURES TRADING and its perfectly legal and normal ! Selling gold futures even though you know you wont be able to deliver in the future, YES that is bad and that might be called manipulation or fraud right away, but not this for god sake!

You cannot make a point that earth is sphere shape by "feeling it" for god sake, you have to make some reasonable point and reasonable proof. And in the gold manipulation the fact that comex sells more than it has physical is NOT a sign of manipulation of itself! The ongoing invesigation on gold manipulation might be a proof theres something wrong, the german problems with gold from FED might be a proof or a sign, BUT NOT the comex! And since the gold sellers are promoting ALSO the comex thing (100 paper claims on 1 CURRENTLY existing physical 1 Oz of gold is not a proof!) and i really belive they know what it is. So they are lying, manipulating themselves in this field, and if they lie in this field, in which other they might lie or not to tell the whole truth.
do you now get my point?

OMG!! Someone really said that!!! I dont belive how stupid people are, and how much they dont understand the issue, if i dont understand it, i shut the fuck up and dont say anything, and if i want, i will learn about it, if i wanna say something, i say "im not sure but i think.... but this is only my oppinion i dont really know that much about the topic".
I saw recently Glenn Beck video and he had some faults also, so he also didnt really researched the topic. And i saw, read and heard more stuff that was incorrect, people are stupid and misinformed and making your own judgement according  to all of this (dis)info is hard.
Otherwise of course i agree its not a proof at all.




Well here i dont agree at all.
I really dont think that after 2 years (because as far as i know they knew it 2 years at least in advance, there knew a year ahead that germany will VERY probably ask for its gold back, germany was even in FED to see the gold, but they were not allowed to :-))... And then, after a year, they had OFFICIALLY asked for their gold back, and it took another YEAR for FED to make its first delivery... So after practically 2 years when FED knew about the repatriation, FED managed to return just 5 tonnes... Hm... well pardon me but that IS WEIRD. All the insurance, dealing, transport etc. CAN SIMPLY NOT TAKE THAT LONG, if the gold is really there, it SIMPLY cannot if the gold is there and FED really wants to deliver it on time. Saying otherwise is blindly stupid, i dont know how you can even say so?? Do you have some experience with shipping? There was a guy here on forums saying he participated in some BIG shipping deals and even he thought its too odd to take so long...
I had even looked at the biggest ships transporting goods and i dont remember correctly but they can hold on board and transport thousand of tons (!!) on 1 fucking ship... I really dont think it would take 8 years (probably more know because they failed even on their first delivery...)
And for example, in around year 2000 germany withdrawl secretively around 500 tonnes of gold from london, as far as i remember (there was an article about it) that it took around 1 year to get it from london to germany. Granted london is much nearer, BUT FOR GOD sake people travel all around the world now in a matter of hours or half days, this is not an argment. Also notice that it was more, around 500 tonnes, fed owns 200 or 300 tonnes or something like that. So lets be REALLY benevolent and lets say that all the legal stupid stuff like insurance, law, security, planning etc. will take a year (and it can be done in a year, look the 500 tonnes from london to germany in 2000). So lets say they are stupid incompetent people and it really takes them 1 year to manage it all, as i said, its long and i belive it could have been done much quicker, but ok a year. Now, because FED will probably transport each gold bar sepparatelly in canoe over the atlantic ocean and thus it will take them a year to deliver fucking 300 tones (one big ship can handle thousands of tonnes in one shipping, i have checked that) So thats an additional 1 year, 2 years in a slow steady peaceful pace... And its done... Over 8 Years... I simply cannot belive that. Simply cannot (i might be wrong but i dont think so).


To more clarify it i have found pictures :-) :
Here cca 300 tonnes of gold 12,4 KG bars. 300 tonnes in total in this picture (aproximatelly)
http://s14.postimg.org/hkbso7481/cca350tonnes.jpg

Heres the original picture
http://s28.postimg.org/sypz3dwnh/cca350tonnes_original_PIC.jpg

Heres how big is one bar (12,4 KG)
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/greatspeculations/files/2013/02/300px-Gold_bullion_21.jpg

Now tell me that those idiots will ship this over 8 years (!). not possible, or totally retarded, incompetent and they should be shoot. So lets say 1 year for legal stupid stuff dealing and preparing the transport including contingency plans, and then one year for shipping, thats all, two years in totall. Now, how long did FED knew about this, oh yes, over 2 years... How much did FED managed to recover when they had 2 year prior knowledge about the repatriation? Oh yeah... 5 tonnes... Hm... (BTW one Rack in the picture is aproximatelly little under those 5 tonnes).

Im sorry but this just doesnt seem right. After a year of preparation, fucking load of one or two armored trucks per day, fucking sent them to the aiport or dock and lets go, next day, or few days after that another fucking 1 or 2 armored trucks and GO GO GO GO, no fuckign time to waste and do it, until its finished, if its robbed once, then switch to contingency plan of delivery. One year is overlly sufficient if the FED isnt run by incompetent retards and i dont think it is...

So lets summarize it, what are indicators that FED gold is really GONE?

- FED wasnt audited in about 50 years i think
- There were some minor basic quick audits, i think one in 70s or 80s (if ever?) and once recently, from the recent, it was delayed as shit, the release and then they release "oh yeah, its there" , question: did you checked it physically? Answer: Ohm... No, but we looked in the books, its there, its ok :-D...
- People from Germany were denied to even saw the gold when they were firstly there (as i read, if its true, i belive so)
- The second visit, was more succesfull, and they SAY (:-) ), they say, FEW bars, but couldnt even touch them? (:-D ?)
- FED knew ahead (year) that it will be asked for return, after the official statement, it took him a year to deliver the first shipping.. (so 2 years he had to deal with this somehow)
- FED announced, that it will take around 8 years to return it...? (500 tonnes in 2000 from london took a year and maybe even under year (probably yes, didnt check this really)
- Afterthose 2 years, YEAY! FED made first delivery, but only 40-50 tonnes :-( SAD
- UPs, it surfaced that FED actually returned only 5 tonnes (other were from Paris by France), SAD :-(
- After 2 years prior knowledge of the delivery FED returned only 1,67 % of what germanz asked back :-)... with this speed it will take 60 Years to return :-D (but of course i dont think thats possible, but still hey, FED knew about it 2 years prior the first shipment, and it had managed to return 1,67 % :-)
- One big ship can transport thousand of tonnes. Planes cargo measures here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_transport_aircraft  Antonov can transport up to 250 tonnes (WOW!) in one flight...
- Worry about security, fucking use your army or police, special service, these people are here for such things. (if you dont wanna pay private security agencies)
- The 5 Tonnes are at home (germany) YAY! But Hm... the bars are not those who were deposited there originally... They are newly melted... FED: Yeah, hmm we did it, gratis, its present, dont mind that we had more work, transporting to refineries, and it costs us something, we love, so we did it for you :-)!
- It surfaced out that the bars were refined in USA for "some reason" (because we love you! :-) )when it surfaced and questions started to rise, germany said: Hm... no.. .actuallly... ehm... we made a mistake, those bars were refined here at germany... ehm.. the previous info was a disinfo, or something
- There were "rumours" that china had received tungsten gold plated fake bars which had stamp from USA (FED or fort knox or something)...?
- There were conspiracy theories long before this problem saying that the gold isnt there (in USA)
- There are soem quotes from people from central banking and financial world talking about the fact that gold price is supressed and the gold at USA simply isnt there (altough i dont know how much reliable they are).


So yeah... nothing here to see people, just some crazy economic conspiracy theories, dont ask questions, dont ask, dont think for yourself, just walk along, nothing to see here, the gold IS there :-)...

if the gold were ready and they were in a hurry it would take less than 8 hours to get ALL of it to frankfurt.

the gold is not ready and they are not in a hurry (yet).

given that there has been no rigorous accounting for the gold holdings of the UST and FRB, it is reasonable to ask why it is not ready.

the offered answer is that the british and americans duped the germans into accepting bad bars in the 1960s, so now they need to make new good delivery bars, but there isn't enough refiner capacity to push it through on the pro rata schedule just yet.

the other answer is that the gold has "compilications".

both are conspiracy theories.  the first is a 50-year old one, for which no one living can be held accountable, while the second is an ongoing one.

There are a couple of questions mixed up in this thread:

1) The first is the question of the German gold repatriation.

Germany has the second largest gold reserves after the US. Approx 3400 metric tons, of which according to the Deutsche Bundesbank more than 1500 tons are stored in the US. Most of that not in New York. A third is in Germany, the rest is Paris and London. Historically, it made sense to store the gold close to large exchanges, as it could have been accessed and used or leveraged quickly in case of emergency. Germany was the main hot border to the iron curtain and in case of a conflict the assets were away from the problem. Other emergencies could be currency based. When Germany acquired the gold, it also signed agreements, that limit the non-emergency liquidation of the gold => Gold has a in principle a very sensitive and inelastic market, relatively small transaction amounts could move the price drastically. This is true because there is very little new gold entering the market and a certain amount is "used" over time for industrial and fashion purposes.

Now what happened to the German gold in the US? We know that the Bundesbank claimed it repatriated already 37 tons of gold from "NY and Paris" - this being a lot less than the 50 tons originally planned.

Now if we look at the latest public FED report http://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/releases/intlsumm/forassets20131231.htm (http://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/releases/intlsumm/forassets20131231.htm), we see that the amount of "earmarked" gold, which is gold held in custody for foreign countries has not gone down significantly during Q4 2013. Thru banking channels, one is also able to get the report for December, same picture. The German gold accounts for about 1,8 trillion dollars of the 8,4 trillion in the vaults.

We learn that no US gold, at least no significant amount, has left the US so far. From that angle, the comments about the 37 tons of gold from Paris and NY are decidedly fishy.

Someone in this thread claimed that moving the gold could and should be done quickly, but that is obviously not the case, as physical gold is a pain in the butt, as those of you who owned or own a few kilos know. It is dangerously easy to steal, very heavy and hard to insure. Unless it is in a physical state that is know and has been under verifiable, trustworthy custody, it is also a considerable problem to guarantee the purity and authenticity to new business contacts or even auditors without jumping through a few hoops. In addition to the verification, transport and security risk (imagine one container ship full with 1500 tons of gold. The info about the ship and its route is probably the single most desirable piece of criminal information ever - now imagine all Somali pirates paddling towards the Atlantic) are the legal implications. As i noted, the Germans are not allowed to liquidate more than a fixed quota of Gold per year due to international agreements. In the agreements are probably (speculation) access restrictions to enforce this of which even most of the German Bundestag has no detailed working knowledge. After all, the German Bundesbank is (used to be) largely independent of political influence - like the FED.

So is there something fishy going on? Maybe, but no one cares. We have moved from an asset backed, over a fractional reserve to a fully faith based currency system (not true, it is in fact productivity backed) that relies mostly on electronic ledgers. If the ledgers are historically correct and show the right numbers, the markets are happy. The markets have a high level of trust in the quality of the German ledgers and they currently (!) believe that the US is good for the debt that is noted in them. E.g.: Nobody gives a shit if the physical gold is currently in New York or elsewhere. It is a pain in the butt. Transferring numbers via electronic clearing systems is much more en-vogue these days.

2) Is the gold price manipulated?

If you read the passage above, the obvious question is: If the FED knows that the German gold will not all vanish over night, wouldn't it be tempting, if not prudent to apply the principles of fractional reserve banking to the stash of free gold just as much as normal banks do with savings in order to create money out of thin air in form of loans? I have no clue. They may or may not have done that (used the gold as security, whatever), but if they did, we would probably find traces in their public ledgers. So I assume they didn't because nobody published a story about a magic money well in the FED books. But:

Big banks have other means of doing exactly the same. If you look at the amount of gold (or silver) ETFs traded and the interconnections of the insurances, risk management contracts, CDSs by parties like JP Morgan etc, you will notice that there is not nearly as much physical gold as all the banks have promised to deliver to their customers and each other in case of need. And *that* manipulates the gold price because the demand is eased via an oversupply of "gold" that doesn't exist. If all the contracts would need to be fulfilled today, the precious metal prices would skyrocket. That could have impact on our currency system that is unwanted (turbo inflation, gold rush etc.)and therefore it is tolerated like the real estate swaps. It is also handy to manage profits and risk if you are a big financial player. Very hard to predict the direction of things for an individual. So if you don't need or want gold for your own solid reasons (insurance against dollar or euro collapse for example), don't buy it. It is a medium of questionable stability in terms of storing value, as is bitcoin by the way.

If you were in a hurry you could ship 300 tonnes to Frankfurt from NYC in 12 hours or less (8 was flight time).  It would have to work like this: 

Merkel:  We have a nuke on the mall.
Obama:  Get me the New York Air Guard, stat.

It takes 30 minutes to get the relevant executives on the concall.
It takes 30 minutes for the relevant executives to issue the local orders.
Lexington armory sends all its APCs and trucks with all staff, NYC sends SWAT teams, to Liberty street.
simultaneously, 4 747 freighters scramble to JFK.
at 90 minutes there is a convoy carrying 300 tonnes to JFK  at high speed.  all roads have been cleared.  no other planes are flying.
at 180 minutes the first 747 takes off, at at 240 minutes the last 747 takes off.
8 hours flight time.
now go home.

Like I said, they're just not in a hurry.

Those traces are present.  They publish precious little information, but they do include *mention* of gold lending and leasing operations in their statements.  They just don't tell you how much.

Mikcik,

You get easily excited. Whilst a futures market is good for stabilising the prices of recurring goods, such as wheat or pork bellies, it is purely speculative with regards a fixed asset like gold.

No amount of 'wishing' (i.e. futures contracts) is going to get more gold out of the ground, and certainly not in the quantities required to satisfy the existing contracts.

It is this rampant speculation and dishonesty which led to multiple bank failures in 2008.

And (most probably) lead to the USD failure in 2014 (or 2015).

How long before this graph is banned?

http://www.24hgold.com/english/interactive_chart.aspx?title=COMEX+WAREHOUSES+REGISTERED+GOLD&etfcode=COMEX+WAREHOUSES+REGISTERED&etfcodecom=gold (http://www.24hgold.com/english/interactive_chart.aspx?title=COMEX+WAREHOUSES+REGISTERED+GOLD&etfcode=COMEX+WAREHOUSES+REGISTERED&etfcodecom=gold)

There is now only 369212 ounces left.

Max Keiser seems to take it for granted that gold prices are manipulated since forever.
That is if you take him seriously.

He's a comedian.  But many a true word is spoken in jest.  Why do you think they call  it a fix?

that's 3692 futures contracts, given that they're 100 troy ounces each. the feb14 contract traded 112,715 contracts on friday. i guess a lot of that is people rolling over from jan14 to feb14, but still it gives an indication of how close we potentially are to the death of the crimex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8XsZwtmYik

BTW about gold repatriation to germany, another interesting fact is that Venezuella asked for its gold back in 2011, and according to this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0rGaWcRiNo

It took FED only 4 months (!), to give back 160 tonnes of gold back to Venezuela...
Venezzula is here:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VEN_orthographic.svg

Venezulla is not really near New York, germany is still more far aways from new york, but still, between venezuella and new york there is some distance, still they managed to deliver 160 tonnes in 4 months.

Germany wants double that ammount, so it should take around 8 months. Also the insurance, transport, security couldnt be such a big issue if FED manage to make 160 tonnes in 4 months... Also he, according to this, already have experience with shipping huge ammounts of gold back. So sorry, but the argument about the transportation beeing a big issue fails. FED managed to return 160 tonnes in 4 months. There are NO problems with the shipping itself to germany, it totally possible and logistically "makeable".

Still: Venezuela gold 160 tonnes repatriation took 4 months...
        Germany gold repatriation 5 tonnes in a year... :-)

Im going to buy some gold now :-).




EDIT:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/venezuela-completes-repatriation-160-tons-gold

Oh ok... some sources say it took them around 2 months only...? I dont know abotu that, but lets say the 4 months apply (and not the 2)

But the bigger issue is that the got their gold from LONDON/europe also, not just the USA (i dont know how much they got back from USA and how much from europe), but still they managed to get gold from europe, which is over atlantic ocean in about 4 months... So sorry guys, but saying that FED just has issues with the complicated logistics of getting germany beck their gold is simply a nonsense... im sorry, venezeula proved it.

The gold is not their (in FED vaults) wow on that :)!

Its not 5 tonnes a year, it was 5 tonnes in the first year.  Yes they made up some rubbish about melting capacity, but they obviously have some gold available to them, I just doubt it is anywhere near what they say they have.

Mikcik, I have a question on gold manipulation, hope it is OK to ask in your thread, as this is where the eyes seem to be.

We all saw what happened when MtGox stopped paying out USD, or at least severely rationed USD. The result was the price of MtGox bitcoins (paper bitcoins if you will) rose substantially. If you do business with actual bitcoins, the price is now currently ~17.5% less.

As related to gold, the expectation seems to be that if the Comex runs dry (or stops paying out in real gold), the price of physical will rally to substantial levels above paper gold. But the MtGox episode explains the opposite - that it will be paper gold (comex futures) that explodes higher as it tries to lure physical gold into its coffers.

Conclusion: Physical gold will therefore trade at a significant *discount* to comex futures if there is a run at the comex. Yes?

Nope, Gox Dollars trade at a discount to Physical Dollars because there is significant difficulty in converting Gox Dollars to Real Dollars. Similarly, if there were difficulty in converting Comex Gold into Physical Gold, then the price of Physical Gold would shoot up in relation to the Comex price.

Hmmm.  USD are up.  Perhaps there is a significant difficulty in converting US Dollars into Real Dollars.

Hrm. I'm not sure quite what you mean, I was just describing the basic point that when two ostensibly identical items (in this case dollars) are traded in two different locations, and they cannot easily be moved from one location to the other (eg moving dollars from MtGox to my bank account), it will result in a price differential where the item in the less desirable location (MtGox) is worth less then the item in the more desirable location (my bank).  Similarly, if gold on the Comex cannot be converted into Physical gold easily, and a demand ever arises to convert the gold from the one to the other directly in any quantity, it will cause gold in the less valued location (Comex) to sell at a discount to gold in the more valued location (a physical coin in my safety deposit box).

nevermind.  i'm having one of those ultra-stupid days which occur every other week or so.  on the road too long i guess.

Ok, makes sense

And does anybody know the features of the gold futures traded at comex? I mean concretelly their payement period, if i buy "paper" futures gold at comex, what date is the delivery? In a year, in two years, in 5 years..? Whats the avarage delivery date on gold futures at comex?

Gold suppression is part of Fed's 'financial repression,' Rickards says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7lGBFJCn-w


Rickards was sceptical to the manipulation for a long time...I recall the GATA guys getting quite excited when he accepted the obvious. He's one of the more mainstream voices talking about gold manipulation, anyway.

So today china supposedly announced her gold reserves and it says that they stayed the same...

But people were telling the public (mainly gold sellers) that china is buying tons of gold...

So who lies? the gold sellers trying to boost the price of gold or china, trying to accumulate more and more gold for a cheaper price (which it would not be able if it told that its byuing gold like crazy, because in such scenario the price would go up).
what do you think?

China continues to import massive amounts of gold.  They are not held by the PBOC, but by multitudes of Chinese savers.

how do you know that...? Do you want to tell me that all the gold importedto china goes to private sector? (private bullison sellers/buyers or manufactures of electronics etc.)? None of it goes to the reserve of chinesse central bank? People (gold sellers) told everyone that yes, it goes there.

Gold
I am just thinking about who actually can measure (weigh out) all those gold ton around the world.. who got the authorization to get inside the safe and say ... yep, I been inside Fort Knox it's real they really got it ... Its all on accountancy books. Also reminds me the many ecological disasters caused by gold rush. In Amazon rain florets ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Pelada ) miners never really got rich they only get a gold called "in natura" witch has low value. Gold only became financial asset after receive certificate of purity by a certification authority. After that, you can choose keep your gold and pay the price and take responsibility for storage or pay somebody else to do it for you.

well, thinking about it I have reason to believe that Bitcoin ( and it's public ledger) is much better and rational financial asset than gold....

I'd trust China before gold sellers.  The latter have obvious interest to ramp the price, China does not.  In fact, it may be counter productive for them, if they were perceive to have a harder, gold backed currency, it would make their currency stronger.  This may hurt exports their economy is built upon.

Yeah thats a good critical thinking comment, didnt really saw and answer to that, usually they say that china is building its middle class and soon it wont need to export...
Also dont forget that a LOT of stuff is made now in china, dont even know if world could essentially afford to make all the stuff themselves these days...? (clothes, electronics), isnt china the "workshop" of the world now...? how do you see that?

The official figures are the best available evidence for the actual figures, at least for the time-being.  Imports/exports are reported.  PBOC reserve report was quite recent.  Since import/export imbalance is so high, and reserves are not rising, therefore the remainder is going into the private sector.

The FT Goes There: "Demand Physical Gold" As One Day Paper Price Manipulation Will End "Catastrophically"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-25/ft-goes-there-demand-physical-gold-one-day-paper-price-manipulation-will-end-catastr

I think we must now be very close to the end of the current version of the London gold pool (the name of the last round of manipulation, which failed too), if this kind of headline is getting to as un-conspiratorial a MSM mouthpiece as the FT.

BTW im thinking about buying more PM, i have little gold, now im thinking about buying silver, but im not sure if i should or use the money to buy additional gold (but that would leave me with no gold at all... :-( ). What do you think? If gold goes higher (for example due to the problem with germany) will silver follow?

I have around 30% gold, 50% silver, 15% BTC and the rest in cash. Of that, probably the highest risk is BTC but it's the most fun to watch. I've been following gold for around ten years but in the last three years I don't actively watch the markets because it's too scary, especially in bitcoin. I haven't read the whole thread but gold is around the cost of pulling it out of the ground, so that should suggest the price is near a bottom. It may also be a time to look at miners that have proven reserves.

Is gold manipulated? I don't know of any market that isn't manipulated. More importantly how long can it go on for? I think 2014 or 2015 is when things will start to unfold but who knows? All it will take is for China to announce how much gold they actually own now and that could start the ball rolling. (interesting that they can have hundreds of tons delivered in one year, but the bundesbank can only get their hands on 30 or so). Probably even bitcoin is becoming manipulated either by governments trying to use scare tactics or regulations, or by bigger players who use pump and dump techniques.

I like silver because it's used in so many industries but at the same time, it is becoming very scarce and it's very expensive to get out of the ground. Also there's the perception that it's so much cheaper than gold so people will spend $25 to buy a one oz coin, rather than buy $25 worth of gold.

Just some random thoughts.

All is a funny fake

Well ok, if you have been watching the price of gold, or the gold market itself for nearly 10 years, well that gives you credibility and knowledge, so i want to ask you few questions :-).

- have you dont your own "research" into the issue?
- I know silver is widely used in industry but are there near substitues? That means if it gets too expensive, are there other metals or means to cheaply replace it?

I read around 50 pages a day about economics. I started reading because 10 years ago I was working in different countries and I wanted to understand currencies. What if I'm living in america but being paid in HKD and my bank account is in malaysia etc. And i really didn't have a clue what made them go up and down. I was reading for two years before I suddenly made the connection that currencies are basically meaningless. Once I'd made that connection I took all of my money out of real estate and stocks because I knew they were doomed. That sounds simple but it took me so many months to understand what inflation really meant. The stock markets are nothing but the Fed spending around $5B of printed USD every week and pumping it into the S&P and DOW. The DOW should currently be around 2000 based on any meaningful evaluation.

Silver is (from what I've read) the second most used and diversified commodity aside from petroleum (coffee is up there too). It is used in solar and anti bacterial and almost all electronics and can't be replaced. Gold could replace it in many areas but gold is too expensive so not practical for industrial use. Whatever else you hold in your portfolio you should hold some silver. But I wouldn't get too excited about short term gains until the Fed lets the too big to bail banks go broke. I can only tell you what I hold. I am not a financial advisor. 

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I do feel the gold (and silver) prices are manipulated.

I have not read too much on the subject but I do have gold and silver in my portfolio, as well as BTC and megacoin.

I look t the price on Kitco daily, and it seems that every time it spikes it does not seem to get the chance to gain much traction and the following days the price decreases back to below the level it spikes from.

This is just my theory but I believe the Fed or one on it's main constituents is using the massive amounts of (free) revenue to buy and sell gold and silver and use that portfolio purposefully to manipulate the price down so the dollar looks more stable.

This theory was in my mind correct immediately after the Cyprus debacle. By rights the gold price should have gone up then as people moved to more secure ways to store their money. BTC certainly went up. Gold went down, and down and down...

I think this effort cannot go on forever and banks are buying gold at bargain basement prices because at some stage they cannot continue to do this and the price will correct to well over $1400.

Silver seems to have a near identical graph to gold.

Hey Guys!!!!!

Quite an interesting discussion, Actually It's not a secret that Gold or Any commodity for that matter is manipulative. Gold fluctuations can happen due to various reasons. Well One of the main reasons, Demand! (Simplest principle)

Then Economy [Well If I am to give you an example when the economic climate was at it's knees I think it was in 2010-2011 American senate had to pass a bill to increase the countries debt ceiling in order for them to meet Bond payments for investors with out damaging the country's fitch rating. However because of narrow political advantages the senate was really late to pass the bill which created doubt in the investor community which ultimately devalued the dollar. Of cause as a chain reaction it was the next move for investors to get rid of the dollar and turn to good old Gold. Which Created the Demand.... Now this is where the final piece of the puzzle comes in MANIPULATION.

Well the demand creates a buzz in the wall street and every one wants a piece of the action, and Big players such as HSBC, GOLDMAN SACHES, ETC... pretty much run the show from here. Since they know the hype is not forever, when THEY have made enough Commission(Profits) They dismiss/sell a whole bunch of gold back to cash em and when there are millions of gold bars on drop despite the previous demand it creates a panic in the market so every one start selling. so rather than the demand soon it will be a less demanding commodity which makes the price to fall to attract investors. Right now we are at this stage. and I expect the gold prices to fall further in the coming months. But don't make no mistakes It will never be record low. Because Bigger players still have some stored bullion for rainy days. It would only be record low if China, India, America, Russia and Mexico decides to flood the market with their stored gold.

So until That we are still safe to invest in gold as long as we don't take stupid risks and hope for a another recession. In my opinion the gold prices will stable for a 1year - 2 years before make any drastic fluctuation.


Let me what your guys idea on this....


Thanks

Interview between GATA's Chris Powell and Goldmoney's James Turk,  28 Dec 2013:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdQcN3FkymM

Not exactly 1:1, but they (metals) usually spike up together. Silver is much more volatile then gold, though. Thinner market, bigger swings.

My wild-card sleeper that i've been buying up lately is RHODIUM. look it up. Crazy, but it was actually at 10 thousand an ounce 6 yrs ago, now at rockbottom 1k. I wouldnt go gaga on it, but i like to diversify and it could go to da moon again lol

"My wild-card sleeper choice that i've been buying up lately is RHODIUM. look it up. Crazy, but it was actually at 10 thousand an ounce 6 yrs ago, now at rockbottom 1k. I wouldnt go gaga on it, but i like to diversify and it could go to da moon again lol
   "

I read a tip about how Rhodium would go ballistic back then but there was no easy way to invest in it at the time (I think now there's an ETF). I don't know much about Rhodium but I think it's an unstable metal, so not easy to store physical. I never did find out why it went ballistic six years ago.

Yeah i was looking also in rhodium just for interest... the graph shows promising...

http://www.kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.cgi

do you know why the price fell so much? what was the reason?

That was in '08 during the stock market collapse. All the metals crashed as well, gold took a 40% hit.

Rhodium got clobbered (obviously) because it's market is EXTREMELY thin. IMO, it's a good metal to throw a few lazy dollars in. High-risk, high-reward...and it's pretty much at it's bottom right now.

rhodium is used primarily for plating, alloying, and as a catalyst.  like other platinum group metals it is very stable.  i doubt another price squeeze like 2009 will occur because that spike put it on everyones radar.  now it sees reserve demand, which will buffer the price.

Consider what the reasons for a 90% fall in price would be (applies to about anything).
1.  Massive loss of demand, products using the material are no longer in demand, or the material has been replaced by another.
2.  Large supply increase, say a new efficient process to manufacture/extract, or a new source is found (in this case one that would be order of magnitude or two larger than previous known deposits.
3.  Considerable speculation in the price, the market got spooked, dumped an ran. 

Now there might be something relating to 1 or 2, but giving the timing with the rest of the market, it doesn't seem likely.  Note the lows 10 years ago and 6 years before that... pretty clear what happens here.

No i dont get it :-), im not a native english speaker so i might not understand you that well, could you please directly write why do you think that fall happened?

Also i notice another thing, germany should repatriate also around 350 tonnes of gold from Paris, France, does the 8 years period of gold repatriation of gold from NY FED also applies to to the French gold? I belive so... They managed to get back i dont know, 32 tonnes from Paris (they owned them 374 tonnes), so yeah... i think the 8 year+ return of french gold applies also for the French... But why is french gold never considered as an issue, i read just about the stupid 5 tonnes per year, but nothing written about the fact that  also the French arent able to retrieve the gold back to Germany in a reasonable time (and no, 8 years is not a reasonoable time)...

Paris is "right across" the corner from germany, not like over the ocean new york, still it will take even for the french 8 years to give the gold back to germany...

Why arent we hearing more about the french part of the story?
And it makes me think that they (NY FED and France) REALLY dont have the gold anymore... :-D Really didnt realize this before but when even France has problem with returning the germany gold reserves, then i belive there really is a problem... What do you think?

Venezuela gold its 140 tonnes of gold back in 4-6 MONTHS (!!!) (mainly from europe (london, paris?) but also from USA), so no, sorry but 8 years are way off... They fucking really dont have the gold :-D! Im believing it more and more... but its a question if it will really "blow of" and the truth will show itself, or if they manage to scrap the gold back in tiny portions over time and the public wont notice this fraud. What do you think?

If I loan you $1,000 and you can't pay it back, you're in trouble.

If I loan you $1,000,000 and you can't pay it back, I'm in trouble.

There's also the question of why Germany wants their gold back in the first place, and they're not being honest about that either.

It's theirs.

It doesn't matter why they want it back, but I'd guess they are worried about a) how much gold is actually there and, b) that if their economy goes to crap they want something considered to hold real value, or c) they believe gold will be included in an SDR basket sometime in the near future

SDR?

SDR means sovereign drawing rights or some other b.s. acronym. I think it's basically a basket of currencies acting together as the world's reserve instead of a single currency. I don't see how that solves any real problems. They could also use gold but one oz would have to be revalued up to around $70k.

Wow. I guess that shows how artificial our current inflation levels are.

So whats the issue with france and why arent we hearing more about it? (the voices about this problems are always speaking about FED not Paris gold..)

Yep, Special Drawing Rights.

A basket of currencies designated by the IMF. At the moment US, EURO, Pound, Yen. The thought is that to give the basket added (or maybe to promote) stability gold will once again be used as a 'reserve' currency in this basket.

Theoretically the price of gold will rise, pretty much overnight, if this happens.

I think it is telling to look at what the central banks of the world have done over the last few years. I don't have the charts or stats on hand, but many many countries have been stockpiling & buying bullion, increasing their reserves. All this at a time when (last 18 months) gold has been diving and the MSM have been bagging it.

Here's an article from today that sums up a lot of things about the last two years. This is by Bud Conrad. Probably one of the best "old school" analysts around and definitely the clearest writer. Everyone should take a few minutes and read it imo.

http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/now-is-the-time-to-buy-gold

And for that, destabalising reason, it almost certainly wont occur.

Just going off a few of the commentators I read like Rickards etc, it seems like china / russia are pushing for this (two of the biggest suspected bullion buyers). they are also the ones setting up trade deals in other currencies not the USD. If they were small states, the US would come down hard on them. the days of USD hegemony may be numbered. 

BTW another good question:

If the price is really beying supressed by the manipulation, why it was allowed to rose between 2008 to 2011 to record levels if the manipulation was really taking place? Or do you really want to say that the demand was so strong thaz even with the manipulation at the max, the price still managed to rose? (and if manipulation wouldnt be at place,  the price would rose much higher back then)?

Or how do you explain the rise?

We're up to 4 bankers suicided in the past couple of weeks now; the latest guy apparently nail gunned himself to death, very believable, indeed.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-07/4th-financial-services-executive-found-dead-self-inflicted-nail-gun-wounds

This is all suggestive to my mind that some heavy shit is going on behind the scenes...and given that the dollar is the lynchpin of all thing financial, and that gold and interest rates are the 2 key factors in setting its price, I wonder if we're going to see some fireworks soon.

I'm very interested in this spate of suicides. But does it 'buck the trend'? Is there anywhere to find those statistics?

Serious sources that have been quite reliable in the past suggest these guys were murdered... I don't know what to think of that...

Can someone please adress this issue? Because after the collapse of 2008 in USA the gold price rose, and it was the crucial moment when it should have been manipulated the most, since the financial system was quite vulnerable, still it managed to rose quite a lot, whys that? Didnt even all the manipulation helped? Would it rose much quicker if it manipulation (supposed) manipulation wasnt in place...?

And btw, heres a nice video, switch to somewhere in 16:00 where Jim Rogers which i personally "respekt" and think he is honest and has a lot of experience (hes also a billionare i think), says practically that he doesnt think the gold price is manipulated... And he DOES not sell gold (!) or does he have negative look on gold, he owns gold and suggest holding gold, so he isnt against it, he just doesnt think that all the manipulation of price is TRUE... He also adressed the issue with futures gold market, which some idiots (IDIOTS) in this thread didnt seemed to comprehend, yeah, selling futures gold is quite normal, the fact that for one CURRENT existing physical bullion gold oz at comex are nearly 90 paper claims doesnt really mean much if they are future contracts that will be due to delivery NOT sooner than several months of years... So yeah, trading futures is normal you idiots and its not a sign of manipulation. Trading future contacts if you know you wont be able to acknowledge even in the future is wrong, but nobody suggested so far that this is in place.... So NO, sorry BUT NO, the pure FACT that there are 90 paper claims to 1 physical oz of gold at comex really doesnt mean anything... Dont be so dumb (some of you).

Im really slowly believing that the whole gold price manipulation is just a strategy of the gold sellers... If its true, ill hate them :-(, i dont like being fuck up with or manipulated...

This is pure speculation on my part but during that time I was watching the gold and silver markets all day. My impression at that time was that gold was about to explode higher. Something similar to what happened with bitcoins last november/december. Gold traditionally reacts positively to rampant inflation and the Fed had pumped $29T into the banks to keep them alive. Imagine if tomorrow someone dumped one million BTC in a single sell order. What do you think would happen to the price of bitcoins? The seller would obviously not be looking for profit but just to trash the price. In order to maximize profits, a seller of that magnitude would have to very carefully place sell orders of ~500BTC at a time so as not to spook the markets.

Jim Rogers is indeed a very smart guy and very rich. But if he wants to keep appearing on CNBC he has to be a team player and not trash talk any of the market participants. Btw he was George Soros's financial advisor during the trashing of the UK pound (Black Wednesday, 1992), probably one of the most famous manipulation schemes in modern times. So he is very intimate with how to manipulate markets.

So you think Jim Rogers is lying...? He seems so honest...? (and btw i dont think he really cares if he is or is not on media, so i wouldnt take this particular thing as an argument :-) ).

BTW that is also my question, about crashing the price with huge sell orders...

Isnt it possible that there is some other explanation, like that the seller reall needed money quick, so he dumped it on the market even if he know he would get less than if he would be selling it in little portions during a londer period of time, he sold it at once, got less for it, but got the money MUCH quicker...? Or he was really worried that the price will go down in the near future more than he would bring it down with his massive sell order, so he just risked it, because he was expecting in the near future even lower price (and thus could not afford to sell it during longer periods of time). Arent these also plausible scenarios?

I don't think Jim Rogers is lying. I actually really like him. He has had a very interesting life.

If a seller dumps physical gold or any other commodity onto the market then that is one thing. If they "naked" dump 400 paper tons of gold, when there is no physical to back it up, then it is manipulation. I can't think of any other reason. The interesting thing is the sheer amount of physical buying taking place in spite of a tough market. Imagine if Apple sold twice the number of iphones this year, you would expect the share price to go up pretty steeply. In the face of increasing demand, gold's price is dropping.

Here's a nice infographic. Not related to manipulation necessarily. Just interesting and well done.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/world/gold/gold.html

thats interesting post, thank you.

It was really 400 tonnes in one "go" (back in april i think 2013)? I didnt know the exact number...

Was it really 400 tonnes... wow then thats really big...

Can someone other think of any other possible explanation why to dump sucha huge ammount in one go? I think only if you would thought that the price of gold will tommorow go to 100 youll be willing to sell such a big ammount in one go... What do other think, what was for example said in media as an excuse for suc a big one sell order?

... the price of gold manipulation will be very high.

Economies will be paying for the wealth destruction, capital misallocation and lost opportunities, consequences of the gold manipulation, for a long time to come ...

Everything is manipulated, even BTC. Silver for example is manipulated at a rate of 50 to 1. Absolutely the comex is manipulating gold. Who's to say Jim Rogers, etc. aren't in on the price manipulation (they were pumping gold/silver on the run up, silver hit 49 and collapsed). Metals tend to lean the opposite of fiat so the only way Gold will go to 10,000 USD is if the dollar is devalued by that much. This means you made zero $$$. It's all one big scam. Make your money while you can and buy houses, land, etc. and then you will be ok.

Yeah omg... posts like these are wortless.... No, if gold goes to 10 000 it absolutelly doesnt mean you didnt make a profit, if it went to 50 000 or more than yeah, you probably are not making any profit because this is due to inflation and hyperinflation, so if gold ever goes to 50 000 or more in the near future and a bread or a roll costs you thousand of dollars, than yeah, you didnt make a profit, bud 10 000 is quite easy realizeable according to me, without the prices of everyting else going up also (due to inflation), so please dont spread misinformation.

But i agree on the land and houses, flats, that is something really tangible and valuable , on the othat hand it can taxed, it can be destroyed (in a war :-), at leats flats and houses, land is forever :-) ), it can be confiscated (cause the state knows who owns what in real estate) etc. Gold cannot. But i like land and houses also.

Also please people dont say that everyting is manipulated if you didnt have your own personal look into the issue, the fact that gold sellers say that gold and silver and everything IS manipulated doesnt really mean it is! And even if it is, it doesnt mean it is manipulated to the extent the gold sellers says it is... Think for yourselves for god sake... I have seen soo many experts here and on the internet in general on PM manipulation but when you ask them something specific you find out that they really dont understand it and are just parroting what someone else said...

Another good thing to consider is the fact that chinese had imported over 1000 tonnes of gold in 2013 and over 500 tonnes in 2012... And the people around gold are presenting it like all of this ammount is ONLY for the central bank... Not including private buyers (citizens) and the industry needs, and where the majority of production nowdays takes place, in china (at least the electronic stuff in which gold is needed)... And chinese citizens do like gold... Still all the info i can find tries to present it in the way that somehow, not announced all this imported gold goes to to the central bank of china, which is just currently and purposely underestimating its gold reserves numbers...

I smell another manipulation from the sellers of gold...

what do you think about this?

Also, what possible reason could china have for melting the gold down into 1 KG bars which it does according to some info. gold sellers are presenting it again in a way that they will try to back their currency by gold...

For those of you who understand BTC and gold silver a little, heres a little proof that you really cannot belive fully even the gold sellers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17w13l-Haco

Whats your impresion of the video and the guy... and yeah... he sells his own stupid brand made silver coins...

Most gold bars are 99% pure. China likes 99.9% pure and their standard is 1kg bars.

yes. fed manipulation of gold..

As a "electronic miner" I always have a mixed feelings about gold ... since I lost two friends in "Bald Mountain" ... a 80's "Rush Gold" in Amazon Rain Florets. Gold "in natura" worth almost noting .. gold must be purified and get a certificate from a recognized authority to have a international value.       

oh... that makes sense... so the 1 kg bars are and always were standard in china? whys that? i think the 12,5 kg bars make more sense if you wanna just hold gold as reserves...?

But if you are telling the truth than thats just another reason why not to belive the gold sellers.

This is a slightly different take on the issue by Jim Richards. There are actually two or three good points he makes.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/514449-james-rickards-china-planning-to-displace-dollar/3/

It's not a matter of belief. When you have physical shortages and the price is going down despite the extreme demand, there is a fundamental disconnect between demand and supply which the price should reflect.

The law of supply and demand cannot really be broken - otherwise there would be no stock exchange, no trading market, no forex, no nothing. If we are experiencing reverse results it is only because a certain market is under manipulation.



German gold is a story that is blown out of proportion. No-one, and I mean no-one, is indicating the obvious:

If Germany really wanted to hold physical gold, what would stop them from buying tons of gold out from the open market, just like the asians and middle-easterns do? Are they somehow barred from doing that? No. With paper price being low, all they'd have to do is order and then ...stand for delivery. Not a thousand tons, but gradually building their position a few hundred tons at a time, instead of waiting for US delivery.

If the price goes up through this demand it's not something that should bother them because in this way their gold which is locked up by the US is also increasing in value. In this way they can cash-settle it with the Americans for high. Like buying low for what I can buy right now, physically, and then cash settling high for what the other didn't actually deliver to me. And if, by any chance, Americans deliver it, then all the better because the price will spike even more due to extreme physical shortages on their side.

The whole story of German gold is like totally overseeing the fact that americans are not the only source where Germany can find physical gold. They can stockpile metal if they want and then say to the americans, ok since you are having problems with delivering the gold, we'll accept a cash settlement (at the elevated prices due to the physical squeezing it).

Imagine this scenario: You have an ounce of gold registered in a certain custodian and you ask for delivery. He says he can deliver it to you in 5 years, or you can cash settle. Why would you wait 5 years instead of buying from somewhere else?

So if you owe me a car but refuse to give me it, I should just go out and buy another one?

Get a clue: The US is holding Germany's gold. Germany is not buying it from them, they're asking for it back.

A good read. He makes interesting points about the Yuan and special drawing rights. I don't really understand though why you need bonds for establishment of a reserve currency. Can somebody explain this?

You are making an interesting point.

But DID the US offer to settle in cash? I guess they didn't and can't because:

1. It would be expensive

2. More importantly, it would look incredibly stupid in front of the whole world to default on Germany's gold. It would be like a statement in big letters: "Gold supplies of the US and the West are gone. Run and grab all the gold you can, our economy is done with!" System comes apart, game over.

No way they could afford that, and Germany doesn't want that to happen either.

No. He is saying they should settle in cash instead of gold and go out with that cash to buy gold on the open market.

Which is one of the stupidest suggestions I've ever heard. Dr Bloggood makes a set of very good points as to why.

- How many $ would Germany expect for 600 tonnes of gold? Hundreds of billions. But they want the gold because they fundamentally believe those dollars are actually worthless.
- How would those $ be delivered? Would they just be conjured out of thin air as more fiat? Shuffle a few numbers around a spreadsheet which can suddenly be wiped out with various financier tricks.
- How much less would it be worth once delivered because of inflation? Tens of millions per DAY.
- Where would they then find 600 tonnes of gold for sale for cash?
- What is the guarantee that this new gold could and would actually be delivered?

Just stupid. The US owes Germany 600 tonnes of gold, and is probably going to GOX the whole deal.

If I owe you a car but refuse to give it to you and you can't make me give it to you, will you walk 30 miles to your job every day? You'll have to find a solution to the problem instead of passively waiting for americans to default on their gold obligations - as they've done 40+ years ago.

(1) is not that expensive (printing money is cheap)

As for (2) well, the Germans have leverage. They could blackmail the US to give their gold, or give them the money by saying "if you don't give us the gold OR the money equivalent as a discrete cash settlement that will bypass the "logistics problem" where you'll get off lightly to the press, we'll make it an international issue where we'll state, in rather direct terms, that you've robbed us and that your "logistic problems" are bullshit".

This prospect is a huge threat for the US and thus would have to comply otherwise trust in their role (and UK's role) as a custodian will be destroyed - no one will trust anyone else, everyone will seek repatriation and shit will hit the fan from gold shortages, making paper gold manipulation schemes fail (which, along with the petrodollar conversion, is the cornerstone strategy for preserving the USD's perceived value) and price going through the roof. Can the US afford this for a meager 600 tons or 24bn USD cash equivalent (~40mn per ton x 600 tons) ?

And not only do they have leverage but by deciding WHEN to do that type of blackmail, they can also go out and buy gold (physical or contracts) and benefit from their pre-knowledge of events, maximizing the gain from the squeeze that they themselves can cause.

In general Germans (=the government) don't seem too interested in their gold. Those who are REALLY interested in gold are actively raising their gold reserves, repatriating etc.

One of the "unintended" consequences of gold price manipulation is that you can buy the entire annual mining supply with "just" 100bn USD. 600 tons are like just 24bn USD, or 17 billion euro. I assure you if Germans have tens of billions to lend to Greece, they can also buy gold (if they wanted to). But they aren't.

The reason why western countries are not buying gold and they are not creating friction between them for things like "oh I want my gold back" is because they are loosely controlled by the same centers of power. All the western world is, in fact, "one country" as far as the Elite are concerned. That's why you see coordinated central bank operations and gold moves, to cover "problems" as they arise.

Who buys gold? Those who are yet to be "globalized" - ie fall under the same unified center of power that controls western nations.

Who has 600 tonnes to sell? And you bet your ass it would cost more than the simple spot price per gramme * 600 tonnes. You've also failed to address any of my other points.

"Who has 600 tonnes?" That's like 3 months of mining supply. If the Chinese can get 1000, can't germany find 200 x 3 years = 600? What's the problem with that?

Yes, let's see the other points:


Addressed.


Money would be delivered, just like every other money transfer. Banks. Ones and zeros in banks accounts. These are not to be kept as money but to be converted to gold.


Huh? Cash settlement is always about the spot price at the time when it occurs. Not the price of now and taking the money in 10 years. That would be meaningless.


Same place as the Chinese, Indians, Russians, Dubaians, Turks, etc.


Same guarantee that any purchase has from all other countries that buy gold - why would the Germans be exempt from this rule?

Now tell me what the guarantee is that Germans will take their gold from the USA? Oh, yes, there is none.

Somehow you've managed to miss the obvious point of the german gold story. It is NOT germany taking delivery, it is USA not being able to deliver that is the story.

USA is alleged to have ~8,000 tons of gold stored somewhere in the USA, for their own account, and almost as much again stored in NY Fed. Res. on account of other trading nations for settling of balances.

Those are massive stockpiles that hang over the markets and contribute significantly to price calculations. The mere knowledge that those stockpiles are severely depleted, or non-existent, due to paper gold loans, swaps, 'deep storage' substitutions and re-hypothecation shenannigans would cause a run on the gold bullion banks. It would seem NY Fed. refusal to deliver german gold in timely manner indicates these stockpiles are indeed depleted, if not entirely gone. Why else would they not be able to deliver except that the gold is gone?

The story is like the hook... you see gold bugs (and prominent gold figures) will go on saying "aaaaah... THERE is the evidence that there is gold shortage"... and much ink will be wasted on that story and this story will be crushed when the US decides to deliver - rendering the "gold shortage" issue as a "conspiracy story" that was promoted by "idiots", blowing their reputation.

As I said, 600 tons is nothing serious and for the USA and Germany it's a non issue as the Elite control both (it's like moving money from their right pocket to their left pocket). The delivery card will be played when gold prices are becoming unmanageable on the paper-manipulation scheme in order to calm the fear of shortages.

There are real stories and there are bullshit stories. The German gold is a bullshit story that has been leaked as a hook and it is entirely manageable. Lucky will be those who are NOT basing their gold manipulation/shortage theories based on this one story. There is a real issue with gold, there is a real issue with oversold gold, but 600 tons from a globalized country to another globalized country is truly a non-issue.

and so do I, because I afraid I'll maybe add another worthless comment " , hope not much like "philosophers' stone" ... I truly have interest on the topic ... but ...

Can I buy a Higgs particle or the data that represents Higgs with bitcoins ?

The US has not been unable to deliver the gold to Germany.  The request for delivery was by some date in the future (2020) and so far some 12% of the requested amount has been delivered.  For some reason the request not being for instant delivery has been spun into a story that the gold isn't there, but there's been no default this far.  The fact that Germany hasn't asked for all gold held in the US be repatriated is overlooked, along with the fact they've not requested any of the gold held in London.  Also, when Venezuela asked for their gold from the US ( about half the German amount) there was no problems and it was delivered.

Omg... are you serious!? Im speechless here, also the stupid stuff that alex wrote... someone is stupid here guys, im sorry and i dont belive its me and i dont mean that offensively)...

1) As i said, if you dont know anything about the subject please dont write here, cause you are just wasting others time (to read, understand that YOU dont understand the topic, and then writting reply correcting you).
2) Germany asked for around 674 tonnes back as far as i remember, so far something around 37.5 tonnes were delivered, thats around 5.56 %, and only 0,741% has come from FED (!). Where did you get 12 i dont know...
3) There were i belive 2 schedules in first place, the first one was calculating with delivery of 300 or 150 tonnes by the end of 2015... This first wont be fullfiled (find it on the net)¨. Second, when it takes you 8 years to deliver something you should have and thus just send it, than sorry, but yeah USA has NOT been unable to deliver. Sorry but if you dont get it i cant really say more to you...
4)"...There has been no default so far..." omg... and dont you think thats the one thing they are trying to avoid as much as possible?
5) What has london to do with it? Obviously they dont feel afraid of the gold in london. "The fact that Germany hasn't asked for all gold held in the US be repatriated is overlooked" no it is not, and you cannot for christ sake use it as argument. I would interpret it in a way that if they demanded ALL the reserves it might be a "shock" news and quite a signal that something is not right, they wanted to go on it slowly and demanded just a part (to test if they can get even the part back) and what would you know... they cant get back even the stupid PART, not mentioning the whole... Or you do you think that if they would ask for all the gold it wouldnt be the issue and it wouldnt take as much time...?
6) About london, germany had already secretivelly repatriated around 940 tonnes (!!) in a year 2000 and 2001 i think it took them something around a year, the gold was flown there i belive, and even its a lot shorter distance, they still were able to get back their almost 1000 tonnes over a year... Now how many gold did FED managed to return to germany in 2013, oh yeah... 5 tonnes.. nothing wrong here...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9631962/Bundesbank-slashed-London-gold-holdings-in-mystery-move.html
BTW they had repatriated their gold from london in the time when london/Great britain were selling a great part of their gold reserves (in the market), also known as the Browns Bottom and i dont know... it almost seems as they might be little bit afraid if theirs (germany) gold wouldnt be sold with the Great Britains gold in a one go... :-)...
7) "...Also, when Venezuela asked for their gold from the US ( about half the German amount) there was no problems and it was delivered....". Exactly... and when it was... it was BEFORE germany and there are interesting things in this:
a) Venezuella got most of is gold from LONDON and PARIS (not the US), i didnt find the correct numbers but what i have read, only a small part was delivered from US, majority was in FRANCE and LONDON... so you really cannot use this a proof of NONE-problem.
b) Venezuella asked for around i dont know 140 or 160 tonnes, (or more?) and was able to bring them back in 4-6 months... fed had 12 months (well actually almost 24 months, check what i have written in previous pages) and manages to deliver 5 tonnes... Hm... nothing weird here...


REALLY guys, i BEG you (!). If you dont understand the topic, DONT write here, you are just wasting others (and yours aswell) time and are spreading confusion (!!).

I will reply to AlexGR posts probably somewhere in the future if i find the courage and time that can be wasted. No offense but majority of what you write is just nonsense and am worried you are not able to see it/realize it :-(.

Still another observation, if you read zerohedge you have probably noticed they are pushing gold quite a lot... they are probably connected with some gold bullion dealer, they have gold ads etc. Nothing really wrong there but i also managed to realize that they are really informing about EVERY stupid move in gold and presenting it in a way that THIS and THIS is a big deal, but in reality, its just stupid small upwards moves. Also notice how they scale the measure in each graph, to make a small UP move in gold appear as a big deal, when in reality it moved just from 1300 to 1305, which really... is nothing...

And if they stock market falls a little, they also over-fear-monger it using in-apropriate scale measure and make a small fall look like a BIG fall (from 1300 to 1290 for example).

So i would be quite cautious in fully trusting zerohedge.

Also its worth mentioning that Romania cannot get its 90 tonnes of gold back from Russia:

http://www.bullionstreet.com/news/romania-wants-gold-treasure-back-from-russia/3047

But this is a different case, because i belive that Russia has the gold but simply doesnt want to give it back, either because romania is playing with USA and building some radars there or something, or simply by the fact that i doesnt want to give the gold back :-).

I belive russia has the gold.

So i think its also worth considering that US had the germany gold but simply doesnt want to give it back, but  Germany is a big player and i dont belive that  US would like to have any international problems due to this, unless they see some BIG major event in the near future when they will just openly stated that they will confiscate all the gold stored in their vaults and there nothing that the states that owned the gold can go. Ans US is somehow counting with the possibility that after the future event all the states will accept this...
The event might be the economic collapse or something other.

what do you think about the possibility that they have the gold but simply dont want to give it back (and are waiting for some near future event that will change a lot of things)??

I may well have had made a mis-understanding, as there is much mis-information on this topic from less than genuine sources.  The reference to Venezuela might seem irrelevant but at the time the same sources said they wouldn't get their gold, it would disappear or arrive and be full of tungsten.  This proved false.  Likewise the point about London is to show this plan is not because of fears the gold isn't present (as claimed by some sources), but that its simply what they state: to store half of Germany’s gold reserves in its own vaults.  (There's a subtext here, to who spreads the mis-information.  They only want to paint a picture against the US).  Its entirely possible to deliver more gold in future years than in the first, so let us wait until at least some way into the forward schedule to declare that the anyone has been unable to deliver.

Hmm...if it's grey and huge and has a trunk and four legs and two big teeth of ivory coming out at the front, then it's probably an elephant.

Now you can say: It's not proven that this is an elephant, don't bet on it yet! I really doubt it's one.

And you are right, it's not proven yet. However, the indications are so overwhelming that I will damn sure assume it's an elephant (in the room) until I get some contrary indicators!

Once it starts roaring and grows yellow fur, I will take my assumptions back. However, it's extremely unlikely that will happen. Until then, my assumptions stand.

(1) True, I hadn't done the calculation either how little it would cost. I take that one back.

(2) On paper, this is all good and true. However, as I said, Germany isn't interested in things coming apart. They clearly helped the US to cover their gold-lies, for the following reasons: (1) To not cause on uproar within their own population, (2) To let the games continue and for the leaders to stay in power (seems like the only thing that matters to them!)

Again, I'm telling you, the whole story was leaked to the goldbugs so that they can get excited with the elite playing the delivery card in the future and crashing the goldbug speculation + reputation.

If people are looking for real gold shortage stories they should investigate India and how the people got blocked from buying physical for cheap.

What did you hear on the news? Trade deficit, blah blah blah, have to take measures, blah blah blah etc.

The trade deficit attributable to gold import was like 3-4% in 2012 - the other 96-97% was imports and foreign payments of all other types.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

Imports   $488.6 billion (2012 est.)
Exports   $309.1 billion (2012 est.

(deficit = 179.5bn)

India imported ~860 tons in 2012 x 53.7mn USD per ton = ~45bn USD gold imports in 2012.
They also exported 39 bn USD in jewelry and gems, making the actual deficit in that department around 6bn out of the 180bn trade deficit.

http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-gold-news?oid=198286&sn=Detail

And what was banned? Gold. Why? Because of "trade deficit" reasons ;D

Other bullshit stories circulated later on mid-to-later 2013 on why demand on India had been curbed by the gold tax, when, in fact, gold was actually cheaper (due to extremely low international price) even after factoring in the tiny gold tax.

"so let us wait...."

I think the purpose of this thread is to try and anticipate what gold will do in the future so we can decide whether to invest or not, versus other assets -- so waiting is not an option. I'm not sure when this thread was started but I'm guessing if someone had invested in gold and silver and sold BTC on that day, they would probably be looking at a good return. 

The two previous incidents among many that persuaded me that gold is being manipulated were:

1) 2010(?) when the IMF made one of its sudden announcements that it would sell 400 tons of gold and instead invest in less volatile assets (sic). Eric Sprott said at the time he would buy the gold from them. They never replied to his offer.

2) when the swiss central bank announced that it would peg its currency to the EURO, which should have driven the price of gold much higher. 20 minutes before the announcement, someone started a massive paper sale of gold. But how could anyone except for a central bank have known that the Swiss CB was about to make that announcement?

Btw I like zerohedge but I agree about the "spikes" or "crashes" they talk about are just designed to get people to read. But it is the only media outlet that actually provides a balanced perspective on anything about the markets. CNBC et al are just wall street cheerleaders.

That's your opinion. I strongly disagree when looking at the overall picture (Bundesbank lying about smelting process, etc, etc..).

In regards to India, as far as I remember, it was not just a tax, but a huge restriction. And yes, they probably did it because they were asked to do it by the west. However, those restrictions will probably not hold up much longer, as Indian elections are coming closer.

I never claimed I believed anything the governments tell us.  ;D

Also dont forget that there was some "semi-audit" of something? (gold? fed, fort knox)...? I dont know what exactly in autumn/winter 2013 or 2012 (i think) and a lot of interested people were waiting for the "audit" documents come out, it took them (US) government several months to just release the documents (they were delaying it as much as possible i belive) and when the papers came out, it was only around i dont know 15 pages, which is really small for "audit" (i belive) and only 1-2 pages were really talking about the gold reserves (the point of the audit), the previous 13-14 pages was just some legal crap by which the audit was made, what it means etc., just plain worthless legal text. And on those 1-2 pages it was actually i belive only an audit of the "books", like "do the books tell us that we have the gold? Yes they do, ok cool, so everyone calm down, the books say that the gold is there, no need to worry" :-D...

I really dont know what to think about that, but i really belive there is SOMETHING wrong... the goldbugs might be over-blowing the issue and future gold price, but i really belive that in core, there IS something fishy and some kind of manipulation.


Also why the fuck not audit the fort knox and FED... if theres nothing wrong, there no need to disagree with the audit, just make it happen and you will have a nice PR (if the gold is there)...

That too is meaningless. They are moving around the gold as needed. One day it is here for the audit, the next day the gold is 10.000 miles away to cover some delivery for a paper contract and a week later it is back again in the vault arriving from another vault.

The Elite control the network of central banks and private repositories and thus have no issue to "present" gold when needed for an inspection, or deliver as needed. It's not like it will be needed simultaneously at every single point - that's when they'd have a problem.

Yes it was an imports restriction, a severe one.

There were two stories:

a) The bullshit story about the trade deficit and the need to curb gold as the culprit for the problem (=bullshit, the numbers don't add up, yet the ban was enforced and thus smuggling started to take effect)

b) The other bullshit story about reduced demand in India because the people could not affort the tax, that supposedly made gold expensive. Well, even with the tax it was lower than what they were getting it a few months earlier = bullshit. But it was enough to send gold some shockwaves of "oh, people of India stopped buying aggressively, gold demand is doomed".

Ok, I see.

Yeah, I hardly watch any MSM anymore, they are generally there for misinformation. A couple of websites is where the good stuff is at!

This is obviously just a made up theory.

The "story" arose because of a citizen's action initiative in Germany that asked to audit Germany's gold reserves. That then escalated when it was found out him much of Germany's gold was not actually in Germany and then a group of politicians and citizens took up the cause to repatriate the gold. It is all well documented in Der Speigel if you were truly following the 'story'.

No conspiracy or "leaked story" for those 'crazy goldbugs'. Try harder for another meme?

Since when do the governments do what small groups of active citizens desire?

Does the US audit the Fed or the Fort Knox because Ron Paul and his supporters -in the millions- ask that? No.

Do small groups of people, or even a few politicians, have any influence on how the government will act regarding its strategic resources like gold? The answer is again no.

Look, here in Greece for example there is a push from below to ask for the German loan during WW2 (occupied Greece was forced to loan Germany a few billions and then Germany never paid them back despite the end of the war and such). Do you really think citizens or politicians dictate if the government will actually demand it? 99% of the citizens are in favor, yet the government won't do it. Politicians from the entire spectrum are in favor and again the government won't do it.

The decision of Germany to ask repatriation has nothing to do with citizens activism. These are strategic decisions taken at an entirely different level. "Citizens action initiative" = null and void for the elite.

just a dumb question but what about the private gold ( non-government ) groups ? how they affects the price ?

I am curious because I saw that advertise (sorry) btw, I have not connection at all with this particular website but they say "BullionVault . com is part-owned by the World Gold Council and is the world's largest online investment gold service. We take care of $2 billion for more than 50,000 users "

That's all 'paper' gold - just numbers in a database. If major economies start to collapse, do you think anybody with their names and money with bullionvault.com are going to receive any real gold?

You are simply dumb Alex. I read a lot of your posts and you are either trolling or are dumb and you cannot even realize that. I dont even get a lot of the time what you really mean.

As far as i know it really came from "the people" there was simply probably too much pressure for a longer time and the gov. simply had to react, so he told the bundesbank to react and it had to "somehow" react. But hey, they still didnt see their gold...

Your assumption that the whole thing is just a trick how to discredit the gold bugs doesnt really seem plausible to me, its just too much work and risk for what? Its simply not worth it. If you fail to see it, than sorry but as i said your are not really bright... Also the term you are using "the elite" seems to me indicate something about you and its not a nice thing. Didnt mean that offensively, im just saying.

I dont understand your question, "the private groups, how do they affect the price" :-)?

Well the more i look into it, the more i belive there are 2 conspiracies, one on the part of gov. which really have problems with gold, but also on the part of the "gold sellers" which i really more and more belive have a strategy in promoting the "economic collapse" issue and "gold going to 15 000 USD per ounce" just to boost up sales. As far as i know, there gold organizations that have world scale to them, there are international conferences about the issue, so i really wouldnt be suprissed if the gold bugs (sellers etc.) would be over-blowing the importance of gold... There are "bitches" everywhere :-), its hard to tell who to belive, but as i said previously i like the "neutral" look which Jim Rogers and Marc Faber have on gold. Which is a possitive view, but really not a "golds going to 15000 oz" view...

Also i red somewhere that in 2011 i belive, anually, the gold demand consisted of around
40 % gold was for (non gov) investment
40 % gold was for rings, decoration, etc. "fancy stuff"
only 10% of gold was used in industry (? wow)
and only 10% of gold demand came from central banks...

so "private" demands affects the price hugelly (around 90%).

heres some other info:

http://www.gold.org/assets/images/content/investment/Demand_flows_5-year_average_q412.gif

I've never invested with Bullionvault but as far as I know their gold is indeed "allocated," and definitely not paper. I actually think it's a good, pertinent question. I've seen a chart somewhere that shows private ownership of gold in India alone is the biggest stock of gold in the world. Bigger than Ft Knox. (similar to how facebook is the 3rd biggest country in the world by population). It doesn't really impact the daily price of gold because private holdings are not part of the daily price fix.

Thanks. I would like to know your opinion about the other side, about...production

..For instance .. In South America ... when Vale do Rio Doce and Rio Tinto get a governmental authorization to mine gold in Amazon again (still some political conflicts in the area, btw )  ... where that gold will be storage ? for example, looking back history in 80's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Pelada , http://www.articlesbase.com/investing-articles/colossus-minerals-a-colossal-opportunity-365315.html ) Uruguay/Paraguai and other countries that does not have any big gold reserve became graters Latin America gold exporter (?) ...  I know a bit about that particular golden rush ...

The reason I support bitcoin instead gold is because is more ecologically acceptable isn't it ?


ps->
for more details info in Portuguese (you can try google/bing translator)
http://andradetalis.wordpress.com/tag/cade-o-ouro-de-serra-pelada/

I'm dumb because I'm pointing the obvious that ordinary people don't have the power to effect strategic decisions of this type? Like activists can tell the government how many tons or what time plan for delivery will be followed. This is bullshit - you should have realized it the moment you were typing it. Activists demanding repatriation and the government caving in. Yeah, right. Like activism of auditing the fed and fort knox (wonder why that didn't happen... maybe activism doesn't work?)...

The Elite play the news game. Some times they create the scenarios and the news. Other times they play with the story itself that has evolved organically. That's how it works with commodities and you have no idea how the game is played - you think what you read is truth and repeat it like a parrot. Anyone who has a different view than the mainstream theory is "dumb" for your standards and, apparently, people who let the media and alternative media to guide their thinking process are the "smart" ones, like you.

So if today Germany is not getting its gold it means that there are "gold shortages" and if tomorrow Germany gets it, what will this mean? That gold is ok and there are no shortages? Don't you get it? No, apparently you don't.

As for the term elite, call them as you like... globalists, controllers, plutocrats, the 0.00001%, elite, the rulers of this planet etc. These guys own every politician, company, bank etc of the globalized nations. The globalized nations are, essentially, acting as one country with one government giving them directions for all things important like resources (and appear to be in disputes for the unimportant things like fiat money).

The yet-to-be-globalized countries are countries like China, Iran, Venezuela etc. These do not conform to the same type of universal over-control. Globalized countries will not push gold demand upwards precisely because they are controlled, in an orchestrated manner, from atop. They will sell their gold reserves together, they will move gold where needed etc. Non-globalized countries however are quite interested at pursuing their own national interests and as such they will be buying gold, demanding it where there is a problem etc etc.

Germany is a globalized country. On a superficial level "it wants its gold" without any other moves that show that Germany is serious with gold.

On the globalized level its irrelevant if the gold is in the vault of a globalized country or another globalized country. It's like a pair of trousers with 10 pockets. If you have 100$ in one pocket or the other pocket, it doesn't matter - it's all in the same pair of trousers. The only thing that globalists/elite etc care, are that the majority of gold won't leave for non-globalized destinations, or, worse yet, individuals like the citizens of India who are massive hoarders.

I dont know... it depends, i think the gold mines will have all agreements in place (already made) before they start the actual mining. Gov. might have some future gold already reserved (for example 10% of anual production will be bought by the gov. no matter what). Than the majority will go to some gold refiners for actual refining it into standard and accaptable gold bars and coins and then i dont know :-). I know only a little about gold.

Also i belive that the gold mines will be selling future contracts right away, so they might have a production for the next 5 years already sold to someone...? (some bullion bank, even central bank, some big hedge fund, etc...)

Alex i wont argue with you, no offense, someone other might, i think we might be misunderstand each other (english is not my native language) or you are simply just a troll. There are ton of wrong things you have written in several posts...  Someone other might argue with you, i wont.

I also think that the gold bugs are over blowing the importance and future price of gold, and even though i belive gold will go higher i dont belive it will go as much higher. But im also quite sure that the thing with german gold stinks.

And about activism and the thing that people cant affect anything: Oh yes they can. Not a big thing (maybe) but a small thing yes. Germany deciding to get its gold back is nothing compared to FED or fort knox getting audited... But also, who knows how much people wanted their country (german) gold back, im not german so i dont know but there might be a serious issue there, i dont know how much discussed this topic was "in the open", in the media etc. but i belive it was big enought and the pressure was tense it enough, that some politicians HAD to react to it, or some smaller politician took their chance for gaining political points and brought this issue into light in the parlament or i dont know where, there was some petion i think so the parlament had to deal somehow with the issue and they simply agreed and pushed the bundesbank to bring the gold home, i think that only a small percentage if anybody at all knows the real deal with the german gold so their intentions might have been pure.

That's an interesting take on the world! I have never heard anyone putting it like that.

The Federal Reserve seems to be trapped. The Fed is creating approximately 1,000 billion new US dollars annually in order to support the prices of debt related derivatives on the books of the few banks that have been declared to be “to big to fail” and in order to finance the large federal budget deficit that is now too large to be financed by the recycling of Chinese and OPEC trade surpluses into US Treasury debt. The problem with Quantitative Easing is that the annual creation of an enormous supply of new dollars is raising questions among American and foreign holders of vast amounts of US dollar-denominated financial instruments. They see their dollar holdings being diluted by the creation of new dollars that are not the result of an increase in wealth or GDP and for which there is no demand.

Quiz: Why hasn't the increase of 1 trillion USD per year not caused hyperinflation, as prominent gold-figures promised that it would?

Quiz: When has any nation been able to survive a debt-to-GDP ratio as large as those of the US and the UK?

Quiz 2: What will people turn to when this all goes tits-up?

It's manageable as long as it's internal debt.


To whatever the elite instruct them to / make it lawful to. Don't forget they've outlawed gold in the past.

A further quiz which addresses something entirely fundamental for the discussion:

Why is gold valuable?

Is it the most heavy? No. (check platinum/irridium/osmium etc)
Is it the most electrically conductive? No. (Silver)
Is it the most thermally conductive? No. (Diamond / Silver)
Is it the most incorruptible? No. (Platinum is better even in aqua regia)
Is it the only colored metal? No. (Copper is too)
Is it the rarest? Not by a large margin (platinum 150 tns/yrs / gold 2500 tns per year, other metals of the PGE group range in the few tons)
Is it catalytic? No. (Platinum / Rhodium / Palladium etc are)
Is it a source of energy, like Uranium? No.

Why are the rich, the countries and ordinary people hoarding it?

Mikcik is quite right about avoiding future conversations with you. You are coming at this from a very strange angle indeed, with paranoid talk about 'the elite' and worrying about the technical qualities of gold rather than its numismatic value, and with no understanding of the fundamentals of the international debt situation.

I will not be engaging in any further discussions with you Alex.

It's ok, the question is addressed to all and it is not intended to somehow discredit gold but rather to reveal its true value which is more than most people can appreciate.

However, the truth cannot be revealed if the right questions aren't asked.

I always thought that the derivatives markets made everyone so interconnected that the promotion of a 'united front' is paramount via G8, G20 etc etc. The financial sector is just as powerful as government. See the response to the GFC? It was very co-ordinated and focused on saving the financial institutions (although fair to say it was a bit of a cull in the US where 5 became 3). And it needed to be for the sake of those in power because if one country "fell", it could have went all domino.

Some argue that letting institutions fail would have meant the problem was fixed quicker (and I agree) but it more importantly would have meant that the chairs of power would have changed too.

As for the emergence of the Venezuela's, China's etc, on one hand I agree. Venezuela / Chavez was taken down by the US as they upset the control of oil. Of this there is very little doubt. And China seems smart enough to play the game: they know stability is key for them as well as the Western nations but it seems as though they are positioning themselves

Because the money is largely not in circulation yet. The velocity of money has to rise. That it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

Gold have a historical / cultural value ... hence it's like sticker our collective mind...

Maybe it's a good combination of characteristics. Maybe the fact it's so shiny shiny bling bling does the trick, so it's largely a psychological phenomenon. I don't know.

I just know one thing: Gold has been very valuable for 5000 years, and it will be valuable in the future. Gold and silver is the last "money" on earth to lose its value. The only way gold goes is when NOTHING except the goods themselves is excepted anymore for payment (gas for bananas, cabbage for cigarettes). That's really all you need to know.



Seriously!?? OMG

That's not only flat-out wrong, but also not logical at all.

http://blog.milesfranklin.com/we-owe-it-to-ourselves-2

Exactly. If the money is given from Fed to banks to pumping derivatives and other markets then it doesn't go down to the average joe so that he can in turn pump prices.

The average joe experiences severe taxation and almost negative bank credit (the banks want more money in loan payments than they are giving out in loans) which means that instead of swimming in freshly printed paper money, he actually has none of it. Instead he has to scramble in order to sell his possessions at rock-bottom in order to repay his debts and bills.

In this way the paradox of more money and deflationary tendencies can co-exist.

Its right and logical. If you owe it to yourself you can erase it and restart at some point with not much anomaly. It is external debt (owed from a government) that creates external friction in case of default. Friction that can escalate from threats to embargoes to international diplomacy problems that are quite severe.

gold is supposedly going to go to the moon in the next 6 months if you believe the hype (because of faltering US/China economy will bring back QE with a vengeance).

The price of gold is influence by economic policy/outlook and risk on/risk off trading, US dollar strengthen like all commodities (btc too) that are valued in US dollars

Yes, but why was/is it valued. That's the question. A tradition starts somewhere and it only endures as far as people don't re-evaluate their priorities. I mean sacrificing lambs was a tradition but then people were like "ok wtf are we doing?"... then people held all kind of erroneous ideas and came the enlightenment... why wasn't the "value" of gold reevaluated as most other things? Even in the early 19th century when platinum was discovered, which had better qualities than gold, why wasn't it crowned as better?

The tradition of love to this "barbarous relic" implies that we still carry barbaric mentality. That defies our intellectual and scientific progression. It defies our economic needs in terms of demand/supply, as the majority of gold is not going for industrial purposes. What is also defied are the discoveries surrounding the new metals of the PGE group which have better qualities. I mean even the ancients understood that iron was better than copper at some stage and used iron instead (the ancient definition of precious metal changed depending their needs). So? Why didn't gold crash when Platinum, for example, came along?

And how does it happen that every single culture values gold? Why is it so universal?



You see the fundamentals regarding the value of gold are largely unknown yet that is quite irrational. How can you "not know" where its value originates but be certain that it will always be valuable? Faith, in lack of substantial evidence of value, is irrational. The only thing that keeps us going is that "other people have valued it too" as a form of self-validation of our own thought process which is, in itself, irrational due to the lack of proper facts. At the moment one realizes this mass paranoia they should stop and say "wait a minute, wtf are we doing here? this is wrong". But nobody does that. Some of the financial elite hint about the useless barbarous metal that offers nothing (and their logic seems sound but nobody hears them anyway because they are full of BS in so many other areas)...

People can't articulate the fundamentals of gold because they don't know them. Contrary to what the elite bullshiters who want people to stay off the gold (so that they can hoard it for themselves) say, these fundamentals DO exist and they are extremely solid - more solid than most can imagine.

They were put in place before a single culture was established on this planet - ie it wasn't the cultures and the people which valued gold but that gold attracted the people's appreciation as a consequence.

When you go to pan some dirt and see a spec of gold in the pan, you rationally know that this is worthless in terms of $$$ (the spec that is) but your heart's BPM rise instantly, along with your excitement which jumps. It wasn't because your parents instructed you to react that way. It wasn't because your culture instructed you to react that way - the reaction was all yours and, if you analyze it, you'll see that its highly enigmatic. There's like a gravity pull / magnetic pull towards gold that seems to be "hardwired" in humans, irregardless of their upbringing, which in turns creates the gold rush effect.

The knowledge of the fundamentals regarding gold is not widely circulating. You have to ask yourself again, and again and again until you reach the right answer. "WHY IS GOLD VALUABLE?". Don't settle for "I don't know" or "others seem to value it now and historically" as a self-circulating answer. If you want to really know the truth you may have to insist a bit more on it.

5000 years is enough evidence for me, without the slightest doubt. Sometimes you gotta stop theorising and just look at the facts of what was/is happening. No irrationality about that. Everybody has to put the puzzle together for themselves.

Your conclusion doesn't clearly come out in your post, but in case you are advising against gold, I'm wondering how you could ever hold BTC...


In other words: It's so shiny shiny bling bling!

On another note: How are things in Greece? What do you think would help Greece now, eg getting out of the Euro?

I'm from a Eurozone country too, and hope the Euro will be abandoned ASAP. It gives the countries in debt no possibility of getting out and the richer countries have to pay into a barrel without bottom. The Euro is ruining us, but very few people see it so far.

Well i thought about the same exact thing, why is gold valuable? And i dont care now aboutthe fact that 40% of demand if from jewelry etc. industry and 10% is for industrial use of gold.
I think that gold has its price and monetary system because:

1) Nobody will for a longer period of time use barter trade (something real for someting real, e.g. 1 pig for 300 Kg of wheat, thats imposible to do for a long time.
2) So there always will be need for some "money"
3) Paper money can be printed and thus easily debased, so there is need for something that cannot be just printed, easily made. Altough politicians and media might manipulate you into believing paper money, the simple fact is that you can always print more so in reality this is not the way to go.
4) So there is need for something else, something "unique" that cannot be produced, printed, read counterfeited easily...
5) Metals seems good, since they are "moveable" (not like properties or land), they dont rott, or dont get old and "damaged" (as cars, wheet etc.) and they are quite "indestructible", and talking about gold, you can also "easily" tell if its true or false (true gold is quite soft and heavy).
6) And why exactly Gold and not platina for example? Well i dont know, there are more rare resources and even metals then gold, like rhodium for example, but they might have some weak points (human skin stinks in contact with rhodium for example). But why not platina for example which is quite stable and rare metal...? Well i dont know, gold has been around for thousands of years and people are simply used to it, if platina would be discovered back in i dont know 3000 b.c. it might be platina and not gold, that is used in monetary system...
7) Its like you want something done (fix a toilet :-) ) and you have 2 choices, someone who you knew that before did good job and is in all means proven (good) or someone new who hasnt been used and you dont know what to think abou it... So its gold...
8) Why was it gold in the first first first place thousand of years ago i dont know, it was a rare metal probably, good looking, people didnt know about similiar metals and thus it was used and it simply "stucked" and when something "stucks" it present a good power... Why use platina or rhodium instead of gold when gold and silver are so established as money... theres no reason... Sure if gov. push and media publish propaganda, people might be using platina instead of gold or something else... But it would need to be a steady and hard long lasting push and it wont be natural... In natural way, theres no need to use something else (platina) instead of gold.
9) So the difference is quite little (gold vs platina for example) but it exists there, and if nobody will push and try to change the collective consciousness of the world to belive in platina instead of gold as money, people wont come to this persuasion themselves.

So the line is quite slim (gold vs. platina for example) but it is there... So thats the reason why gold is considered money and precious according to me...

But that doesnt really mean that there cant be anything else as money, for example to be correct i think bitcoin is quite superior to gold as a money... i wouldnt really EVER want to store large sums of money in bitcoin, since it really doesnt exist, so as a store of wealth i think gold is MUCH better (or at least better) then bitcoin, but in terms of money... wel... i would always rather use bitcoin then gold for paying for something i bought... Goldbugs wont say this to you, but they realize that bitcoin is the NEW GOLD in terms of transaction, paying etc. And goldbugs are scarred as shit of bitcoin :-), listen to peter

War might solve this :-)... (and even if it is sad, its effective and true :-( ).

Listen to Peter Schiff for example how he bashes gold, he is REALLY afraid... you can tell by the way he is lying, manipulating about gold vs. bitcoin and hes inteligent, he knows he is lying :-). He said for example that gold is divisible just as bitcoin is :-). thats just stupid.

So i find bitcoin and crypto superior to fiat and gold as money, sorry guys :-).

But i would always rather store my wealth in gold then in bitcoin, because bitcoin really doesnt exist... For example if i had $ 10 000 i would like to have i dont know have around $1000 in bitcoin for pying for stuff and 9 000$ in gold :-) as and hard wealth storage.


So thats my thoughts about the "why gold".

No, I'm not advising against or in favor of gold. I'm simply giving you the opportunity to think. Every investment we make has to be assessed for its value. If I buy land, I know that land is finite – you can't make more of it. I know it can grow stuff, I know it can shelter people in that space etc etc.

If I buy stocks, I see what the company produces, what the prospects are for the future etc etc.

If I buy fiat from another country, I assess their macroeconomics etc etc.

If I buy cryptocurrencies, I assess their properties and place in the market etc

If I buy metals, then what is it that I should be assessing?

Other than knowing about the bottom price (=mining cost), I don't know much else on why gold Is valuable... I am at a tremendous information disadvantage.

Now, to be clear, this information disadvantage is prevalent throughout practically every gold investor. The lack of information regarding what makes gold valuable is at the core of gold's manipulation. It is a factor that is multiple times bigger than the paper scam: If people don't know the true value of something they are very likely to underestimate it. You could have something valuable and throw it away because you don't know what it is really worth. Likewise you may have something like gold and be selling it 10 times lower than you should because you have no idea what it is REALLY worth, but instead go with the market price which is reached by a consensus of ignorant parties (at best) or fixed by manipulators (at worst). You see right now gold and silver are being priced not for what they are but in relation to the mining and extraction costs that are considered as the bottom prices. It's like there is no significant added value other than the mining – in some cases silver can go below that cost, and silver in particular has quite desireable properties for the industry (hundreds of uses). All these things are ...somewhat absurd.

I know I am not revealing the true reason but that's only because that reason is not really believable for most people – it turns their world paradigm upside down. Additionally, a truth which is handed out is not really appreciated with the same way that one would appreciate a truth that he discovered on his own. It's just how the dynamics of human psychology work.


Gold is rarely the only thing that blings. Actually it tends not to in most cases (its pale metallic instead of shiny metallic) while some other metals and small particles tend to bling a lot (although with a silvery color). Sometimes you can even see mercury blinging waaaay more – and it has the liquid metal effect which is like “whoa”.



Things are well, shitty. People don't even have money to heat themselves or put gasoline on their cars so most are doing reduced mileage or burning wood for heating purposes. The main problem right now is lack of currency / liquidity in real economic transactions like going to buy clothes, medicine, gasoline etc. The country is only theoretically inside the euro as the euro has become so scarce that a lot of people don't have it to trade with one another. With 30% unemployment the salary for people is like 0 euro while the cost of living is running, demanding euros everyday. How is one supposed to pay for this?

Young people go back to their parents, or immigrate. There's not much to do around here really. Lack of liquidity, over-taxation and negative credit rates have killed every activity.

Debt default, exiting the euro and going to a national currency is the way to go – there's nothing good in the projections for the future regarding the country staying inside the euro.


Fiat is the most bullshit form of money. Monopoly money at its worst. Bitcoin is far better but it has to become easier and safer for everyone to use without fearing they'll lose everything. Ignorance is part of human nature and if people judge that bitcoin can destroy their deposits then they'll not opt for it, preferring fiat and a bank. Gold is at the top but not so much as currency – more like a store of wealth. Higher denomination gold coins could be used for currency in the west but generally it is too rare to be used as such or too expensive to be used in like a hundred poor countries. Silver is ideal for every-day currency and it has worked well in the past.

Personally I don't see any war between bitcoins and gold or silver. They can act as supplementary investments for anyone who dislike fiat.

As for the arguments on why gold, yes they are valid arguments for numismatic convenience, but the real question of value remains. And as I said earlier, it is a fundamental component of price suppression for if people don't know how to assess the value of gold and the reasons on why it is so valuable, they have no way to understand its fair price.

Sorry about the long link, but this was up on financial times. Was, not is, for some reason:


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fd5e00172-9b14-11e3-946b-00144feab7de.html&ei=NM4KU6S0D_P7yAHLuIGIBA&usg=AFQjCNHaFzw47jj5Fx8c6izaXIGy-kIt5g&sig2=nxnmTWTXcVwsdGDQNyZLqA&bvm=bv.61725948,d.aWc#axzz2uNFQdMUl

Do you think Shire Silver would work as a good supplement there? The smallest gold cards are about 3 Euros in price (1/20th gram), and the smallest silver cards are less than 1 Euro (1/2 gram). Someone over there might be able to make a good business out of making their own version and promoting it. Its certainly a lot easier to understand than bitcoin but can be produced without government interference.

on the news ...

Gold market breaches 'covered up'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26341072

Interesting. And on the same page is a link to "why we value gold."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25255957

Nice catch.

For a BBC article, too many logic fallacies compressed there.

So he ends up saying it's convenience and ...color, dismissing copper for turning green. He also faces a logic problem when he says that platinum is so rare but gold isn't, so we use gold... now, if platinum is so rare, why isn't it like 10x more VALUEable? Why are Platinum Eagles not worth 10 times as much as Gold Eagles if platinum is extracted at a rate of 150tns/year rather than 2500tns? (worse than 1:10). He says it himself: Gold is not incredibly rare, so?

Copper can also be alloyed and give nice, beautiful gold color (eg the type you see in 10-20-50 eurocents denomination), reducing the problem of copper tarnishing.

Iron, btw, is used extensively as currency, both historically, and today. Take a magnet and use it in 1-2-5c eurocoins or even 1 euro / 2 euro coins - the core is magnetically attracted. Eurocents in particular are iron covered with a copper plating so that they look copper. They can't afford copper because the actual cost of the metal is greater than the value of the coin (an indication of why fiat money is a very bad idea with the value of metal exceeding the denomination of a coin).

The argument about "oh they all look the same" about colorless metals is UTTER BS. Otherwise there would be no silver coins because, well, it could be lead or molybdenum - I mean we don't really know if it's silver, do we? It's all "silvery-like"... so, silver is out too with his logic. Yet silver was the #1 metal for currency up to the '60s - with tens of billions of coins in worldwide circulation.

Of course he mentions none of the problems of gold as currency, like the fact that it is not durable and has to be alloyed with copper to endure even small levels of abuse (gold=soft). Paradoxically this makes it lose its original yellow color and takes a more redish/orange color that is further from the original gold color than the brass/bronze yellow coins. Alloying is usually 90-92% purity (90% was in the 1800's for European countries, 91.7% was the spec for UK coins). Additionally, gold coins had a weight issue as weight was gradually removed from the coin, either due to circulation, or due to intentional wear (putting 100 coins in a small bag, moving them around so that one can collect the gold dust) which made them unsuitable for circulation within a few years. I mean iron rust and copper tarnishing is nothing for long-term durability compared to having to remint every single gold coin for being underweight.

Yet the broader question is not whether gold is good for coins, but why do we value it...

If someone says "its properties", or "scarcity", then we must also apply the same reasoning and examine the case of silver. Silver has 5:1 above ground quantities relative to gold and is extracted at a rate of 9:1 in quantity relative to gold. It has spectacular properties in many regards, being the best metallic conductor (electrical/thermal) and is also the most reflective. The price ratio of 60:1 between gold and silver cannot really be justified. Even if we go with the crowd's wisdom and tradition, everything that applies about the historic value of gold, also applies for the value of silver. Yet silver was rated from ~10:1 to 17/19:1 in coinage (1800s/1900s), not 50 to 80:1 which is the current range for the last few years.

So, for all intents and purposes, silver is currently the best value for money. It's a precious metal, it is useful, it has industrial demand, etc etc. Additionally the supply curve indicates that, in the long run, there'll have to be a convergence between the 60:1 and the actual supply (9:1) for if demand is balanced then silver stocks will be depleted very rapidly (as they do, gradually)... So why not silver?

Again, without understanding the real reason why gold and silver have "intrinsic value", there is no way for people to understand what the fair price is.


I was not aware of Shire Silver so I looked it up. Well, as I see it, and if the pricing scheme you mention is accurate, then I can't see it working. I mean gold is around 30 euro per gram, why pay 60 euro for 20 x 1/20 cards? It would make sense to have a ~10-15% premium (some bullion coins, especially of the 1/10th OZ variety, may have similar premiums), but not 100% on the price of the metal. That would be attacked by the fiat people as a scam.

100% premium aside, it might be able to work if people could do on-the-fly maths about the value of things. For example when I drink a 3 EUR coffee, my mind instantly translates this to 0.1 grams of gold. But I'm like a super-minority - nobody does that stuff, especially in countries with hard currency like mine which is inside the euro. The best bet would be countries with soft currencies and marketing such cards with low premiums of, at most, 10%. I have no idea if that covers the expenses of manufacturing, marketing etc but it just doesn't make sense for much more than that.

That sucks, sorry to hear that! Let's see how much longer clueless and scared politicians will carry on with the failed Euro.

What do you mean by "the Euro has become so scarce..."? What are the mechanics behind this and what do people use for payment then?

Agreed, if you are implying silver will rise much more than gold. The silver investment market is very small compared to the gold investment market too, so for investment purposes, it's even better than 5:1.

What do you think is the reason the SG ratio was so much smaller in earlier centuries - what happened in the 20th century? In Roman times it was 12:1.

well silver is mined as far as i know, the majority of it, with other metals... as a "by-product", really there are (at least from what i read) a minimum of purely silver mines, the majority of the mines in which silver is mined are mining primarely something else (like i dont know, iron copper, etc. and it happens that silver is often also present, so its mined also, but only as a "side product". So maybe the boom in technology in 20th century meant that there were a lot of new mines discovered and opened (iron, copper etc.) and thus more of these metals were mined, and thus also more silver was mined, and thus there was suddenly more silver available and thus the price went down... but this is just my quick teory, didnt research it and didnt even thought about it more. (but on the other hand, silver si widely used in a lot of industries which were not in the past, so the demand is stronger, so also the price should be higher, which it is not, which is weird...

Also there is the possibility that gold is overvalued a lot :-).

I'm not really implying a rise because the market is manipulated, so... but it is manipulated in ways that are larger than simple price fixing. Cheap silver could currently be used in a multitude of electronic devices to increase their efficiency by 6-10% depending the copper they currently use. It could be used in transformers, rotors, wiring etc. In microelectronics where the PCBs are very small, the cost would be negligible as a cost per unit and it would also relieve the need for gold plating the contacts. An electric motor though for a car would be a different story as the wiring would need a few thousand $$$ extra (a few kgs), but, in light of the total cost, and the increased efficiency, it could be worth it - after all it is not money that is wasted, the silver is still there for removal at any time. Thing is, they won't let the industry use silver in such a way because then the price would skyrocket due to massive demand.

As for the ratio, the recent spike is related to the removal of silver coinage and the elite focusing more on the hoarding of gold, rather than silver. Gold is more hoarded and, as such, rarer to find in the marketplace in adequate quantities. Silver, on the other hand, is not stockpiled in vaults to the same degree as gold. It's really more hoarding in gold vs less hoarding in silver that has led to the current ratio.


The mechanics are simple: Daily expenses, a lot of taxation* and banks demanding the loans back depletes the circulating currency. This is worsened by a negative trade balance (more currency leaving the country than what is entering the economy), a near halt of credit expansion by the banks (they don't give new loans) and government attempting to achieve a surplus, which in other words means that it plunders the citizens more money than it gives back through services, wages etc.

In short, you have more money taken from the people than being given to them which is a recipe for euro-scarcity. 30% unemployment also means that not many people are making money right now, so how are they supposed to have any money? There are no unemployment benefits worthy of mention and even if one qualifies, it's like 300-400 euro for a few months and it's over.

* Taxation has reached unimaginable lengths of unfairness where people are being taxed for simply being alive. Every citizen is assumed to be creating an income of 3000 euros just because they happen to be alive. The rationale is "if you are living, then you are somehow eating, drinking, etc - so there is no way you are not having an income, and based on this ASSUMPTION, I will tax you". On top of that imaginary income, further imaginary income is added if one has a car or a house. So if you have, say, a 1000cc car and a 50 square meter apartment, you may be taxed as having an income of 8000 euros, which could tally up to something like 2000 euros for direct tax, property tax, car tax etc. That applies even if one is making ZERO income. The rationale is "how do you eat, live, have a car, a house etc without having 8000 income? Therefore you have that type of income, and so I will tax you". I know people abroad hear about tax evading greeks etc, but they never hear about the insanity of the tax system where even homeless people have to pay taxes. Greece is the most over-taxed nation right now on the planet. You could be working all day and paying >100% of your income in taxes if you are self-employed. Nobody can beat that level of taxation.



The economics of silver mining, due to the price of silver, disallow silver mining operations except in very rare cases of quite rich deposits. Thus a process of "merged mining" is employed where a mine extracts multiple metals to increase its viability. Usually copper, lead and other metals are the primary metal of extraction and silver, or even small quantities of gold, can be secondary metals that simply add further value to the mining operation.

OP are you here? Bonus at the end  ::)

I am glad you posted what you know. Agreed.  ::)

I retired as a stock trader at the age of 40. (I have been inside of varied # of things to know a wide spectrum of global info.)
Manipulation is a constant in any market.
From subtle to overt; greed and fear are the greatest causes for migratory patterns of wealth and the amoral efforts to secure it.

The question isn't IF ... but who, how, why and to what benefit can that information help my decision processes.

Who - You have listed some and have not listed others. ( I believe it is a long list. )
How - Price suppression, hedge fund tactics, and a "Great Shake-out" herding of those who get scared and sell at a loss.
Why - It is profitable and increases power and control which is the currency of the elite, governmental and global powers.

How to benefit:
- Realize the big fish control the markets and supply and demand can and is being manipulated within given bandwidths.
- Swim with the tide of the big fish and pick the scraps.
- Swim against the big fish and get eaten.
- I trade gold stocks now. Gold needs be above $1100 for them to produce. Below that then supply falls and price rises.
- China, India and Emerging markets increase their demand for Gold the more each economy prospers.
- The Big fish plan and know this and other megatrend economic global issues and adjust their tactics.

I thought I had seen most all in certain arenas till I saw this video. (Huge confirmation on many fronts. I had to corroborate with sources.)
Gold - Watch carefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-2Rfuq8NBU

Fave econ Video for fun  http://youtu.be/d0nERTFo-Sk

Heres another "clue" that there might really be something to the issue of missing gold of USA, gold manipulation etc...

check this out:

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was some advisor (economic) in the Regan administation (Regan= past US president), so the shouldnt be dumb, and should have some knowledge how "stuff" works in the usa, politics etc.

And he also states, that USA doesnt have any more gold... (or at least that the majority is gone) and he also believes that theres a gold manipulation...:

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/01/17/hows-whys-gold-price-manipulation/


And the best thing of all... He doesnt sell gold :-), and i didnt find any connection with gold sellers (e.g. banners of his site etc.). now that doesnt mean that there isnt any connection, but as far as i know, this guy is "real and honest", not concerned with gold selling, and still he states there IS a manipulation...

So, those who own gold, lets hope it goes to 15 000 USD per ounce :-)!


And BTW, bitcoin, which is new, not manipulated, and "doesnt exist" (is not physical) managed to rise 78,5 X in 2013... so the rise of gold from 1300 to 15000, that means 11,5 X in few years doesnt seems so SCI-FI :-)...

Lets hope!

FT. Knox == Mt. Gox

c'mon everybody knows that and has done for some time. The USA is busted ass, there is no gold, it's as obvious as the nose on your face.

Why else do they refuse audits? If they had the gold they would be showing great hordes around the place and charging for the viewings .... it's the oldest trick in the book, a liar sitting in front of an empty vault. C'mon, really? you think Ft. Gox has gold? Whadda ya smoking?

So if they do an audit tomorrow and, say, 95% of the quantity is there, would that mean that they have the gold?

Audit = no proof because they are moving it around between western/globalized vaults.

Proof = when there is simultaneous audit in various large western vaults, both national and corporate, so that it can be ensured that the gold is not being moved around or melted/recasted into new bars with other serial #.

Given sufficient time lag for preparation, you can present ten thousand tons of gold in one vault this month, another 10ktons of gold in another vault in the next month etc etc - and give the appearance that everything is in order.

thats the first good point i saw you make here :-).

Just what I was saying a few pages earlier, that China does the "unthinkable" (per some forum members) in that it bypasses the gold that it has deposited in the US (600 tons) and instead focuses on buying thousands of tons: http://www.silverdoctors.com/chinas-road-to-secret-gold-accumulation-goes-through-the-ny-fed/#more-39727

Instead of playing the repatriation card, they let the west short gold and then buy it cheaply off the market by the thousands of tons.

Because Anunnaki designed humans as their gold miner slaves, ooh and by the way NIBIRU is comming to collect.

Did I got that right ;)

Supposing an answer like the above could spring up, the next logical question would be: Why did Anunnaki want the gold? Why did they considered it valuable to go to all that extent where they would have to engineer an entire species just to mine it with primitive means (instead of applying high-tech and extracting it on their own in a much better fashion)?

It's a "design" issue but not related to any human or ET species.

As scientists zoom to examine the fabric of reality, they will find a universe constructed of information and code - which will inevitably lead them to the conclusion that this is a reality construct, similar to a designed game reality that we create for PC games or other types of simulations.

That reality construct in which we live has variables and constants - many of which have already been "mapped" and are currently in our physics books. Whoever designed / "coded" this reality, used two constants regarding what will be considered value by those immersing in the reality. These two constants were gold and silver. Any human plan to bypass the fundamental "coding" of this reality is simply humans trying to play "god" (ie master coder) and replace pre-existing constants with their own.

This will inevitably lead to problems regarding any replacement scheme (whether it is paper money, copper or nickel coins, electronic money etc). All of these have fundamental flaws and collide with the basic design.

For example paper money is issued as debt to have any form of value, since it's backed by nothing else. So it is given as a loan repayable with paper currency + interest. Thus at any time paper currency is less than the actual loans that are expected to be repaid = endless inflation otherwise the prior debts cannot be repaid without issuing new (and more) paper currency. It's a ponzi scam that needs constant inflation so as not to collapse.

Due to paper price affecting the inflation, copper or nickel coins appreciate more than their face value and are thus forced out of circulation by melters. In other words, the currency loses so much value that the metal of the coin exceeds it (!) in the long run (typically 20-30 years).

Bitcoins have 51% problems, they are not as future proof as gold, etc. It's not a tech that can endure 100-1000-10000 years. It can however effectively troll the bankers imperfect systems and compete with their bullshit money and payment systems. How can they accuse Bitcoin that it's backed by nothing, when they themselves back their own paper by nothing? How can they accuse it of being a ponzi when they are running the biggest ponzi scam (ever) with the knowingly-impossible-to-be-repaid loaned paper money? How can they accuse it of being worthless when its a scarce and rare resource compared to their own endless supply of paper money? Even as a payment service it is faster and cheaper than their bank wires/paypal/visa crap.

On the other hand, the only two real problems of gold and silver are

1. the logistics : You can't carry too much of them with you. Being divisible is not an issue for small denominations (that's why there is silver).

Silver coins = small denominations
Gold coins = large denominations
Gold bars = large money transfers

2. fast transactions in a global / worldwide economy that render long-distance-trade problematic and require gold-silver based equivalents for transfer. For example wiring or paying with a VISA or paypal through a gold-backed currency would solve the issue. The recipient would simply go the bank and cash out his incoming payment directly to gold and silver if he so required.

While we are running a paper money system, gold/silver also have price suppression "problems" but that's not inherent on the metals, rather it's due to the inherent instability of the paper money scam that must be preserved by artificial lowering of gold/silver prices through trading enormous quantities (again on paper) that do not even exist, in order to fix the prices.

China may be accumulating gold but its not to back their currency.

Their QE program is larger than US and Japan combined.   Their Central Bankers are very Keynesian no way they would back their RMB with gold

If my great grandfather had buried a million dollars worth of gold in 1900, and my great grandmother simply buried a million dollars, which treasure would buy more stuff today?

Gold is worth more vs the $ everyday, manipulation or not. No matter what the exchange says.

I like the way you think.  Scary to realize the elite have always known the value of gold and purposely removed it from the pockets of the citizens and replaced it with the concept of certificates which eventually, as planned, became worth nothing. The dollars only value is that people are generally willing to accept it in trade for goods or services  with the understanding that they too can exchange it for goods. When theres a snag in the line, no one, not even your precious government, is going to trade you gold, or food, or blessings for your worthless fiat paper. Since America makes NOTHING, its up to all the other nations. China will accept the dollar until the nations they spend it on no longer want it. I know most BTC nerds hate 'God', but the cashless society will pan out just as it written. 1 universal account # for everything. Nothing comes in or out without going through the system.  You think we're just numbers now, just wait.

For their collection of solid element planets of their solar element system art project. This is the better fashion, low admin, assured self destruction, gold will be nicely stacked in one vault by they time they come back.

I find it more plausible, "Than the creator of the universe coded some intrinsic value in gold that only we humans are attuned to it"

Humans are creatures of habit and tradition, this is where gold's value come from. Gold has been around for thousand of years, while FIAT only for 50+ years.

Well yeah, thats what i also think more and more (the fact that china is buying gold just to "support" their monex printing and not to come out with their currency as a world reserve currency). The gold sellers are lying :-(, its almost disgusting...

Also its worth noting that Iraq (or some similiar state) have bought around 36 tonnes this year or at the end of the last year i think... its said it has been done to support their weaking currency, theres a nice precedent in this... if iraq managed to get 36 tonnes (bought) than i think FED should also manage to deliver the germany gold on time, the gold was avaiable in the market (iraq bought some) so it rises the question if FED really just didnt have some logistical issues and it reall has the gold...

The more i read, the more i belive the gold sellers are just lying and pumping their bussines, its their strategy probably, look at sites like:

http://www.silverdoctors.com/
http://www.ingoldwetrust.ch/
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/King_World_News.html


EVERY day there are news saying.... OMG! BOMBSHELL, gold is going to 50 000 $ an oz tommorow, keep stacking...

I think gold is being manipulated, but the manipulation is greatly on the side of the stupid sellers pumping their product :-(.

Let's just stick to cryptos.

Am I the only one who sees the Irony in this?

I didn't say only humans were. Whether you are a human living on planet earth or a green ...martian living on mars, the universal rules and constants are the same.


Thousands of years indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy#History

"The earliest recorded metal employed by humans appears to be gold which can be found free or "native". Small amounts of natural gold have been found in Spanish caves used during the late Paleolithic period, c. 40,000 BC."

...I mean, you can't make this stuff up. ~45.000 years ago, the first metal that people used was ...gold. Of the dozens of metals, it had to be it...


Not so. You have to understand the global situation. In the west, gold selling to the masses is irrelevant as a force to affect the prices. Silverdoctors and gold bugs, doom-preppers and hyperinflationists, are buying metals in the millions of USD. More gold is actually sold by people who have to repay loans and mortgages and see their gold necklace or chain as less significant.

Annual gold production is in the 90bn USD range and it's all bought by massive buyers and citizens of eastern countries like India, China etc. The average joe in the west who might buy a few ounces is not even the 1% of the larger picture compared to India, for example, where EVERYONE buys gold.

Note that Indians aren't doing it because some guy in the tv or the internet says to do so, or because someone is pumping it. Rather, it's because gold is regarded as money and thus people don't even view it as an expenditure or "buying" - they just convert one type of useless money to another type of enduring money - knowing full well that it will preserve and enhance their wealth over the course of time. If you had to choose between rupees and gold, you'd take gold too.

What irony ? The price of Bitcoin has been going from 10000BTC for a pizza to about $500 per BTC in no time.

I'm not gonna waste 10 years waiting for the price of Gold to eventually go up if the world economy collapse.

The profit you can make in cryptos every months is crazy. With gold, you just lose a bit of wealth every month hopping for the end of the world to get rich.

 think that the gold price is manipulated,by whom?why?the gold is manipulated by the big players on the market all over the world,maybe Americas gold resources are almost gone but there are other places on the planet with a lot of resources of gold;take for example Rosia Montana,is a mountain in Romania,since 2000 three big companies from USA ,Canada and Norway are fighting over it. The estimation of the gold on that mountain is 14,6 millions of ounces.
Why I think gold price is manipulated?Because only a small part of the gold resources becomes jewellery or gold bars, most of the gold goes in industry. Most of our electronics,cosmetics ,house ornaments ,even clothes have gold in it.The interests of  the companies whom use gold,is to buy it with the smallest price possible.

As long as women need ordaments, gold will have value. Same as diamonds, perls, and the rest of the shiny stuff

That's what we are talking about: The shiny shiny bling bling.

It doesn't bling bling until you melt it, clean it and polish it, otherwise it's a pale yellow color which approaches metallic yellow with some degree of luster only under rare conditions (high purity ore in terms of composition, no impurities attached on the surface etc).

Even some of the large nuggets that are shown in museums etc, are cleaned with extremely strong acid to start showing their color.

On the other hand there are silvery metals and rock formations that bling-bling fantastically as they are. Certain crystals can also be amazing as a sight for a primitive man / caveman.

By those who issue fiat currencies and have a ton to lose if their game is busted.

Declassified document showing the efforts of the US to reduce the importance of gold, to make deals with other countries not to buy gold and how it is stated that they want to prevent inflation (in fiat terms) in case countries started to reevaluate their gold possessions in actual market prices (which would expose the fiat scam if everything went 5-10x): http://www.gata.org/files/ArthurBurnsLetterToPresidentFord-June1975.pdf  

You can't make paper money and have it compete with gold. It's like making a shitty altcoin and expecting that its ratio to bitcoin will be climbing despite its bullshit properties and enormous inflation. You have to rig the game in favor of the paper money by collusion with "friends and allies" to undermine gold and act as if its unimportant.

Also read this: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-30/1974-enders-kissinger-we-should-look-hard-substantial-sales-raid-gold-market-once-an

U.S. objectives for world monetary system—a durable, stable system, with the SDR [ZH: or USD] as a strong reserve asset at its center — are incompatible with a continued important role for gold as a reserve asset.... It is the U.S. concern that any substantial increase now in the price at which official gold transactions are made would strengthen the position of gold in the system, and cripple the SDR [ZH: or USD]. In other words: gold can not be allowed to dominated a "durable, stable system", and a rising gold price would cripple the reserve currency du jour: well known by most, but always better to see it admitted in official Top Secret correspondence.
...
"Secretary Kissinger: But why is it against our interests? I understand the argument that it’s against our interest that the Europeans take a unilateral decision contrary to our policy. Why is it against our interest to have gold in the system? Mr. Enders: It’s against our interest to have gold in the system because for it to remain there it would result in it being evaluated periodically. Although we have still some substantial gold holdings—about 11 billion—a larger part of the official gold in the world is concentrated in Western Europe. This gives them the dominant position in world reserves and the dominant means of creating reserves. We’ve been trying to get away from that into a system in which we can control"

Good point, though logistically I think it may be cheaper to bribe the auditors with desirable things. They all drink in the same clubs anyway (bankers and auditors) it's just a big show for our sake, much like "democratic" voting.

But if some auditor did somehow turn out to be straight and honest and un-buyable, and for some reason it was not feasible to kill him, then yes... metal shuffling would work perfectly.

It always warms my heart to know other folk can also see the wizard behind the curtain.

Incidentally, "The Wizard of Oz" is one long metaphor for banking and gold (yellow brick road) and various wrong doings, if you watch the movie with this in mind it's CRAZY. :D

There is always Big Brother who is not only watching you but control your life and gold and fiat are the instruments he uses

It's the bling, and you know it.

As I said, it can bling under very rare circumstances, or after acid wash.

Otherwise it's mostly like this, amalgamated with black sand, mercury and other impurities: http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/gold-nuggets-mined-in-alaska-george-f-mobley.jpg

Small specs can bling better, but they are specs - and silvery specs (not silver which is usually black-ish, but silvery) can be mirror-like and 10x in terms of bling-iness. It's the stuff you can see on the heaviest sands after a heavy rain, when it has washed everything except them - and they sparkle like crazy. You can see them on roads, pavements, even on soil which has been eroded. The rain streams move the lighter stuff and the metallic deposits of silvery-sparkling-metals remain.