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Author Topic: Real honest Money  (Read 6769 times)
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 03:18:13 PM
 #61

Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts.  And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.

You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with:
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114

Other PoS coins may differ.

I understand the NaS problem, it is not that complicated to understand.

As far as Vitalik Buterin being satisfied with NXT security, what
he actually said in the post you referenced was this:

Quote
I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.

devphp
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July 07, 2014, 03:23:12 PM
 #62

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So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.

This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked Smiley
The whitepaper draft is available here:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/
But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ.
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 03:30:55 PM
 #63

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So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.

This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked Smiley
The whitepaper draft is available here:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/
But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ.

just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof.  anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.

devphp
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July 07, 2014, 03:37:52 PM
 #64

just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof.  anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.

Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either Grin I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with.

I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument.
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July 07, 2014, 03:50:49 PM
 #65

The best coin that suits the definition of 'honest money' as implied by the original post is Myriadcoin. It can be mined just like any PoW coin, and it's not hijacked by ASICs and not vulnerable to 51% attacks.

But nobody give a damn about Myriadcoin, because nobody give a damn about honest money. The only 'honest' money people like to call that is the kind they have a big stash of. That's so hypocritical and at the same time something that can be understood because it's natural instincts to protect your vested interests.

So who are you trying to fool, OP?
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 04:21:30 PM
 #66

just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof.  anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.

Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either Grin I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with.

I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument.
 
I think you are talking FUD or you don't know what you are talking about.
When did Selfish mining attack happen?  Do you have a reference to that?
 
As far as merchant adoption, go here: http://coinmap.org/

 

devphp
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July 07, 2014, 04:58:25 PM
 #67

Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it.
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 05:01:09 PM
 #68

Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it.

It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend.

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July 07, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
 #69

It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend.

Correct, by a large pool. There is a good incentive to orphan competitors' blocks and gain more rewards for yourself. That's what is called selfish mining. I've seen this happen a few times and other people have seen it, and there are articles available on the issue, please google it.
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July 07, 2014, 05:06:38 PM
 #70

every miner is selfish

1) those that get bitcoins selfishly keep them
2) those who want bitcoins selfishy argue because they should have them
3) if those that had them gave them to those that want them.. then its all the same.. (1) and (2) still apply

its a never ending circle of selfishness

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
devphp
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July 07, 2014, 05:11:12 PM
 #71

No, it's not about this.

Please feel free to educate yourself:

http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/

http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/01/15/detecting-selfish-mining/
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 05:12:01 PM
 #72

It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend.

Correct, by a large pool. There is a good incentive to orphan competitors' blocks and gain more rewards for yourself. That's what is called selfish mining.


You won't gain more rewards.

You cannot orphan a competitor's block unless
you hide your own block.  And when you hide
your own block, you risk someone else will solve
it and the network starts building on that chain.
If that chain becomes the longest one, you lost
the block reward you would have gotten from
doing normal mining.  

So you lose as much as you would gain and
your mining profits would be more unevenly
distributed.

There is nothing to gain from trying to hide blocks
unless you are trying to build the longest chain as
part of a double spend attack.

devphp
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July 07, 2014, 05:13:46 PM
 #73

You won't gain more rewards.

You will. Exactly by hiding blocks and mining a longer chain and then orphaning competitors' blocks. See the links above and watch the blockchain for confirmation.
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 05:30:00 PM
 #74

You won't gain more rewards.

You will. Exactly by hiding blocks and mining a longer chain and then orphaning competitors' blocks. See the links above and watch the blockchain for confirmation.

I took a look at the paper.

They may be correct that you can sometimes gain an advantage
by using selfish mining techniques, although I didn't review all
of their math and assumptions. 

You will notice, that the assumed advantages become more
pronounced with pools above 30%, which are also capable
of performing double spending attacks.

None of this means "Bitcoin is broken".  It simply reaffirms
the fact that large pools are not a great idea.

 

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July 07, 2014, 05:39:46 PM
 #75

I said above that yes, selfish mining issue is related to large pools. The incentive is extra block rewards and taking those rewards away from competitors by orphaning their blocks. "Bitcoin is broken" is just the title of the article, we are not discussing the title, we are discussing the issue of selfish mining, which is real and does happen. You can go on burying your head in the sand, it doesn't make this issue go away. The outcome is smaller miners go out of business, large pools become larger.
jonald_fyookball
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July 07, 2014, 05:44:41 PM
 #76

I said above that yes, selfish mining issue is related to large pools. The incentive is extra block rewards and taking those rewards away from competitors by orphaning their blocks. "Bitcoin is broken" is just the title of the article, we are not discussing the title, we are discussing the issue of selfish mining, which is real and does happen. You can go on burying your head in the sand, it doesn't make this issue go away. The outcome is smaller miners go out of business, large pools become larger.

It's a free market.  People can choose to not participate in such big pools,
which are a bad idea anyway.

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July 26, 2014, 09:31:17 PM
Last edit: July 27, 2014, 01:09:23 AM by Coinler
 #77

Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing

There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce.
Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........

Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact.
 



Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward

Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin.
PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the PoSpyramid scheme would be outlawed. After all the interest payment must come from somewhere, yes the bigger fool until it collapses.

Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along?
It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style

1. Create a anonymous account on a forum.
2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready.
3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined.
4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent
5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors"  who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors"  can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking game coin.  An ever greater demand for the original token payments "dust" is happening and more and more money is flowing in.
6. Some time has past  and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market.

Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case.

An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with.

Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins.
 
At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind.

Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves.
"BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally.

By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite.

Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere.
All the best claiming your stake of nothingness.
The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity .

Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come.

It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead?   The answer is, it is a stillbirth.



Edit:
According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin
http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/
  

my view is that this is a silly perspective aimed at devaluing the demand for POS coins. encryption provides value, and nothing supports that statement more than the current demand for anon transaction technologies in coins.. all of which have enjoyed massive growth in short spaces of time and endured with stable pricing as well at much higher price points. competitor coins without POS cant say the same. and after all.. investors only care about profit. if they can generate POS blocks on an encrypted network then the encryption itself provides value for the coin but also give them the added benefit of storing for themselves a sort of savings bank account at home. A Safe that grows money through generating interest on investment! this is a fantastic incentive for investment and everyone i think knows it. added to that, POS networks provide much greater transaction speeds and this is also highly demanded as im sure, many like myself.. absolutely LOATHE bitcoin transaction times. which can take ridiculously long.. sometimes more than an hour to get a transaction confirmed.

I am yet to see a legitimate argument against POS technology. all are theoretical and can be classed as FUD in my view.

ill await a response from those who believe in these theoretical exploits against POS networks and a reason why encryption cannot also provide value for a network besides the consumption of energy.

Best Regards,
Coinler
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July 28, 2014, 04:49:36 AM
 #78

Comparing PoW to PoS seems silly and deceptive to me.
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July 28, 2014, 05:21:11 AM
 #79

Comparing PoW to PoS seems silly and deceptive to me.

Could you give any reason for that? I am really interested in that since i have no idea why one should not compare two methods to secure the coin network.

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July 28, 2014, 05:45:40 AM
 #80

Gold, Silver, Bitcoin = Honest money.

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