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twiifm
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July 06, 2014, 04:38:16 AM
 #41


w currency "backed by" means "convertible to"

nicetry is correct.  gold & bitcoin price is speculative

another non miner that thinks bitcoins are worth pennies but only sold for $640 due to dreams and hopes and nothing more...

Its worth whatever the market wants to pay at the time being.  Its priced like any other commodity.  But the price is volatile because there isn't a historic demand.  The only business that needs bit coins are dealers like bit pay/ coin base & exchanges
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July 06, 2014, 04:55:56 AM
 #42

A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.
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July 06, 2014, 06:06:30 AM
 #43

A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.
I don't think he was implying the value strictly comes from how much it costs to obtain it rather than just adding to the novel that Bitcoins concept has a superior logic than fiat when it comes to trading.

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July 06, 2014, 09:07:36 AM
 #44

PoW works.  PoS works even better.  Because work is not the issue, but stake in Bitcoin (PeerCoin)  Grin

i am here.
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July 06, 2014, 09:48:24 AM
 #45

How can PoS work if towards the end everyone has his own coin to stake in. Hind OP (at least that is the conclusion i came to).
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July 06, 2014, 10:23:41 AM
 #46

Sorry to throw water on the fire here but Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption.
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July 06, 2014, 10:56:46 AM
 #47

Sorry to throw water on the fire here but Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption.

oh crap.  now i just realized that!  i guess we were just confused by what a bitcoin block chain really is? Smiley

i am here.
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July 06, 2014, 12:22:50 PM
 #48

A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.

cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage).

thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit.

buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering..

thus the speculation is $500 and above

the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made

and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin..

when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500..

for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss.

it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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July 06, 2014, 01:25:06 PM
 #49

Remember basic Physics you can not create something for nothing

There is no better promise than Energy because everyone needs it, wants it and i will never have any problem selling it as it is universally recognised. To create a Proof of Work (PoW) coin you need x amount of energy and you can not cheat. A Proof that work has been done. Right now it costs $600 Dollar to generate a Bitcoin, someone has done $600 Dollars worth of work, thats a promise. If someone has done $600 dollar worth of honest work for you, are you going to pay him? If a miner sells below cost he will not be a miner for long, if the profit is huge others will join. I don't need to be Einstein to figure out if a Bitcoin sells for $1000 and i can produce it for $600 i will produce.
Not only the electric used to mine it is also the production of the chips, the engineers designing the chip of the algo........

Litecoin is a backup of your real money just like you back up your wallet. It is gross negligence to have no backup. In case something drastic happens it's something of fall back onto, basically a insurance policy. It will always lag bitcoin, thats a fact.
 



Gold and Silver is real money too, but it is awkward to give change, awkward to carry, awkward to store, awkward to sent.....awkward

Everyone knows the fiat fake money and now is a new contender in town, PoS the little cousin.
PoS only has value because of Bitcoin otherwise no one would buy it to it and there would be a fair chance the ponzi PoS would be outlawed.
Some of us going to have a free lunch now, want to come along?
It does not matter the style of initial distribution we use, the scam nxt or Blackcoins or any other the changes are only cosmetic and the end result is the same. For the heck of it let's use the nxt style

1. Create a anonymous account on a forum.
2. Announce to creation of a new coin and ask willing participants to sent a few satoshies worth of bitcoins, not to much we dont want to scam you of the real money, just enough so we can sent you your stake when ready.
3. Tell your friends, family....... to create numerous anonymous accounts on the forum and sent up to the maximum 1 bitcoin tell em to sent lots it is worth while and as they know you, the will. Now create several anonymous accounts yourself and sent bitcoins to yourself too. You and your friends have a total of 15 bitcoins sent and the others who have sent some "dust" did sent .15 of a bitcoin combined.
4. Now create the coin and sent everyone the millions of the new coin disrupted according to the bitcoins (satoshi's) sent
5. Start buying the coins of the early "investors"  who have sent real money (bitcoin) to an aon on the internet. Yourself and your mates hold thigh so very soon the price rises and for the 100 million coins or so you sent to the early adaptors there is a real scramble. Soon the early "investors"  can show massive gains and buy more and tell there friends also about this great staking game coin.  An ever greater demand for the original token payments "dust" is happening and more and more money is flowing in.
6. Some time has past  and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market.

Some one else realizes this and starts his one coin. He has a bigger budget to play with, can create a better website, change a few parameters and very soon the coin takes of too as some sheep now follow it too, just in case.

An even bigger player follows the 6 steps above to create his coin with a fixed limited number to stake with.

Some time passes, lots of new staking coins created all limited editions, of the endless created PoS coins.
 
At some stage Microsoft or any other large player deceits it too will find use for another few millions in the bank account and follows the 6 steps above and when it cashes out will leave an even bigger number of bag holders behind.

Next in line is the FED, whoha what a blockbuster the best staking coin ever, the pump phenomenal, gona have to jump on that train before it leaves.
"BCNext" yeh we will follow you loyally.

By no means must you be a big player to enter this game. If you make enough noise in you neighbourhood you too will find fools who part with money easy, geed will make sure of it just throw in the burley and fish will bite.

Unlike PoW in PoS it does not matter when you start your money for nothing enterprise (creation of Proof of Stake coin), however it is to assume that sooner and not later the fools have run out of real money drying to have a stake in every new coin coming to market, because "just in case". Coins claiming to pay x interest can only to so when a bigger fool enters after all it has to come from somewhere.
All the best claiming your stake of nothingness.
The proper meaning for PoS is Proof of Scam (Po$) alternatively Proof of Stupidity .

Inflation, among many other things stops new PoW coins in its tracks unless it cheats in some way to overcome it and it must be at the expense of something. The key element is how much hash power can any coin produce in the very very long term.(What is the block reward of a given coin in 50 years time). Investors (not the local gambler) will invest in a coin as long as they see growed, the coin needs a decent block reward for a long time to come.

It all started in another tread with the question is PoS dead?   The answer is, it is a stillbirth.



Edit:
According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin
http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/
  



The cost you were saying is the mining rig and electric cost + times correct ?
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July 06, 2014, 02:48:01 PM
Last edit: July 06, 2014, 03:15:37 PM by franky1
 #50

6. Some time has past  and you have long ago recouped 1000 fold your bitcoins sent to yourself and cash out regularly as more and more new money flows in and you control 99% of available coins are the puppet-master and in full control of the market.

exactly, who holds the coin is the dominant decider in a trade. and has more control of the price. its not like buyers can just shout out random amounts and a bitcoin holder hands it over without question.. miners wont hand it over unless its a price their willing to hand it over for..


Edit:
According to coindesk it cost $597.23 to make a Bitcoin
http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-economic-environmental-costs-bitcoin-mining/

The cost you were saying is the mining rig and electric cost + times correct ?

coindesk also said citizens of bolivia and citizens of china cannot touch bitcoins by law... they kind of have half a story, but its not accurate..

the price if high electric and paying excess delivery and import tax makes the high end of $600, especially those small people that cant afford multiple rigs.. but those in group buys and area's of cheap electric, running farms (the majority of hash power and receivers of the biggest slices of bitcoin pie. have costs closer to $500.. but as i said multiple times.. its not exactly $500, it does vary.

speculators (actual smart people who like to hype up the price for profit) always try to use high valuations, not low valuations. so for the 5th time

true value is ROUGHLY $500 (as thats production cost on average(cheapest cost to mine)) anything above that is speculation, based on profiteering and other varying factors.. which on average for the last 4 years has been around 20% above production costs..

in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation.

but comparing it to gold true value and spot..
1920's bank notes gold value and fee's charges, taxes..

everyone just ignores the variable, and says its backed by the main measurement.. thus banknotes backed by gold(ignoring fee's and tax) decades ago, now backed by minimum wage(ignoring fee's and tax) bitcoin backed by POW(ignoring speculation)

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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July 06, 2014, 07:02:52 PM
Last edit: July 06, 2014, 07:13:34 PM by doo
 #51

Quote
in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation.
+1000

I think production cost includes everything from the engineer designing the chip to producing the miner, electric, .......  


Edit:
Bitcoin should not be called virtual currency as this reveres to crap in game currency's and such, PoW currency is better suited
Harley997
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July 06, 2014, 07:15:38 PM
 #52

A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.

cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage).

thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit.

buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering..

thus the speculation is $500 and above

the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made

and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin..

when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500..

for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss.

it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing
The entire supply of bitcoin as of today is not from miners, part of the supply is from people who have previously purchased from miners (and purchased from people who have purchased from miners, and so on) and want to sell for other reasons.

If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600.

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July 06, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Last edit: July 06, 2014, 09:12:26 PM by franky1
 #53

The entire supply of bitcoin as of today is not from miners, part of the supply is from people who have previously purchased from miners (and purchased from people who have purchased from miners, and so on) and want to sell for other reasons.

If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600.

in your opinion, but
1) those that hold the product have the control of price.. try asking for a $30 bottle of whiskey and say to the shop.. i only have $2 give it to me.. see their response
2) not every bitcoin is on an exchange. those buying bitcoin as you say originally by it from a miner, and then of course (because they are smart investors) wont want to sell at a loss. this is then pre bought investors. also wanting to only sell at a price above the miners costs.. meaning those that bough yesterday and miners today can both find their lowest ask prices above mining costs, so now 3600 coins of yesterdays mining that sold for X will want to sell for X+1 atleast. and miners will also want to sell above X aswell..

3)using point (1) i can put a buy order at $1, $10, $100 right now... yes  i can ask for any small amount i want.. doesnt mean i wil get it..

4) those with the coin have the control and the are the ultimate decider.. not the buyer.. sellers have their own prices in mind, they know ow valuable bitcoin is, so they are not dumb to sell for less (unless intentionally trying to cause a crash) so they have their minimum sell prices in mind and prefer prices higher then that.

if you put all this data together and think logically that its a sellers market... not a buyers market.. you may understand.. and if it doesnt sell .. just like houses.. you hold onto it untill a better offer comes along.. no one is silly to sell a house for $10k just because someone says thats all thy have.. they wait it out until someone else comes along.


and that folks is why some buyers are always screaming "i missed the boat" because they are the ones not matching sellers prices.. and think that bitcoin will crash to $10

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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July 07, 2014, 12:38:52 PM
 #54

I don't think that traders care at all how a coin gets created, POS or POW, the value of any commodity/product is simply determined by supply and demand.

When NXT (or any other alt coin...) manage to escape from the exchanges and start to have a life outside in the real word, you will surely see prices and volumes going up.
I guess we can call that a no brainer.



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devphp
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July 07, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
 #55

Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared Grin
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July 07, 2014, 01:32:01 PM
 #56

Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared Grin
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...
Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.



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July 07, 2014, 01:45:17 PM
 #57

Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared Grin
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...
Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.


research POS

imagine a coindev premines.

on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.

now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..

guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..

so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.

right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..

not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..

POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..

by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...

... how do you like them apples!! ...

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
ButtCrack
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July 07, 2014, 03:05:25 PM
 #58

Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared Grin
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...
Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.


research POS

imagine a coindev premines.

on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.

now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..

guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..

so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.

right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..

not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..

POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..

by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...

... how do you like them apples!! ...

Hasn't this been the case with almost any alt coins, regardless of POS or POW ?
Seems to me that indeed as you also said the devs and some "lucky" early adopters are the real winners.
Thats why I treat alt coins as pyramid games or scams if you like.

The great plus for POS is that you don't have to invest or do much work like POW to make a nice profit.
Effectivly because of this an even better profit margin !

Average Joe as such, will get stuck with some rotten apples indeed, POS or POW.

Bottom line how to create an fair and even distribution ?
So even average Joe who has no clue about POW or POS doesn't get screwed with these apples.

Anyway I think most ppl who visits BTT already got the idea...
Pyramid game, pump and dump, get in fast and get out even faster before it collapses.
Average Joe in the meantime better stick to BTC, that is if they already heard about it.












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July 07, 2014, 03:05:50 PM
 #59

Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared Grin
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...
Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.


research POS

imagine a coindev premines.

on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.

now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..

guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..

so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.

right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..

not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..

POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..

by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...

... how do you like them apples!! ...

Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts.  And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.

Although, perhaps in the future Bitcoin may be able to add a POS element to its POW
to bolster security.



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July 07, 2014, 03:10:21 PM
 #60

Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts.  And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.

You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with:
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114

Other PoS coins may differ.
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