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Title: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Bit_Happy on July 28, 2014, 06:42:43 AM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up.
No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ruggedman_dan on July 28, 2014, 06:46:11 AM Totally agreed.
I must say though, I do not think bitcoins were ever really designed for brick and mortar transactions. Not to say it cannot be used for such, because of course it can be. Just like the credit card was never really intended to be used online. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Dogtanian on July 28, 2014, 06:47:51 AM <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. And they use payment processors... which is what you can use with bitcoin. Problem solved. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: joshraban76 on July 28, 2014, 07:00:02 AM Maybe what we need is a company like Visa or MC to supply a service where we deposit bitcoin and they issue the charge as fiat there wouldn't be any conformation time because the confirms would already have happened when you made the deposit.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: MegaHustlr on July 28, 2014, 07:08:00 AM Maybe what we need is a company like Visa or MC to supply a service where we deposit bitcoin and they issue the charge as fiat there wouldn't be any conformation time because the confirms would already have happened when you made the deposit. We don't need any company like Visa or Mastercard. We're trying to get away from those type of companies. And like the user above says we already have services like Bitpay that cover these transactions so its irrelevant. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Bit_Happy on July 28, 2014, 07:32:19 AM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: MegaHustlr on July 28, 2014, 08:22:29 AM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations. A payment processor will cover this. You send the money through them and all is good. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 08:50:43 AM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor.
If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? It is probably too late to change it, but my guess is it won't be bitcoin that is used for transactions where time is a factor. Vast majority of web purchases it probably isn't an issue. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: chennan on July 28, 2014, 09:02:48 AM no,I don't think so! When comparing with wire transfer, It only takes 1 hours to get confirmed.There is no charge back for merchants which is different from credit card and many other payments methods. The merchants are happy to provide BTC payment.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 09:05:01 AM no,I don't think so! When comparing with wire transfer, It only takes 1 hours to get confirmed.There is no charge back for merchants which is different from credit card and many other payments methods. The merchants are happy to provide BTC payment. When you start using third party payment processors chargebacks are possible - the third party can decide to not pay the merchant, just like credit card processors can and do. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Whitehouse on July 28, 2014, 09:06:00 AM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? It is probably too late to change it, but my guess is it won't be bitcoin that is used for transactions where time is a factor. Vast majority of web purchases it probably isn't an issue. Why deal with bitcoin at all? This is the risk or gamble you take. You use payment processors for safety as well. Are you really going to just send your money to some random company? What happens when you dont get the item that you paid for? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 09:08:39 AM Why deal with bitcoin at all? This is the risk or gamble you take. You use payment processors for safety as well. Are you really going to just send your money to some random company? What happens when you dont get the item that you paid for? Sending large sums to random companies is not a good idea, but for established companies like Dell it is not a good idea for them to rip off customers. They'd lose in the end. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: onchain.io on July 28, 2014, 09:16:51 AM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations. The Bitcoin confirmation time is about protecting from double spends. So 1 confirmation means it's unlikely the transaction could be reversed as in you would need a hell of a lot of mining power. 6 confirmations and you're transaction is pretty solid. So a merchant would generally only wait for confirmations for large transactions. For small transactions it is enough to detect the transaction is in the network, i.e. more or less instant. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Brewins on July 28, 2014, 09:22:14 AM For most of things its not relevant.
You don't buy something in an online store and hope it will be shipped in less than 1 hour, for example. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: franky1 on July 28, 2014, 09:23:04 AM firstly credit/debit cards.
when in a shop and you swipe your card and type pin number in.. the money does not move.. in actual fact the <reality check> is that the merchant services simply does a balance check and gets a customer to authorise a movement of funds. much like signing a transaction.. well exactly like signing a transaction. if someone went straight to an atm and checked their balance they usually see total balance: XXX available balance: XX this available balance is what would be left to spend. but the account still shows the unconfirmed money(money has not moved) in the total balance, because it has not been confirmed yet. just authorised to be moved later sometimes this takes up to 24 hours to confirm(actually make the total balance decrease) and then still 3 month-6 month to be able to reverse. in short all the merchant is doing is accepting an signed transaction, and trusting the payment network to confirm(move the funds) later. as ofcourse the payment system is insuring payments as long as there is a signature or correct pin. enjoy Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: zerocool5878 on July 28, 2014, 09:38:26 AM I don't think there is an option is everyone wants fast approvals then a 3rd party is prob the only way to achieve that.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: franky1 on July 28, 2014, 09:43:36 AM I don't think there is an option is everyone wants fast approvals then a 3rd party is prob the only way to achieve that. well if the third party insures payments, like bitpay did. otherwise the merchant can just do it himself, accept unconfirmed payments at whatever rate he chooses to then cash out later at localbitcoins, etc. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Lauda on July 28, 2014, 09:47:53 AM Why are you complaining? International money transfer takes much longer.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: franky1 on July 28, 2014, 10:01:39 AM Why are you complaining? International money transfer takes much longer. because the OP thinks thinks that credit cards are different. which they arnt. bitcoins are faster than credit cards, the only difference is that it requires that extra layer (a third party to insure signed transactions). if the OP only wants to accept confirmed tx's this is where a bitcoin debit service can easily come in. where people use a service they pre-deposit small daily spend amounts (to get pre confirmed) and then they can spend instantly. (research offchain tx's much like mtgox codes or btc-e codes work to send between members) like i said for small daily spend amounts offchain tx's solve this problem. as it gives trust to the merchantof receiving funds (because the funds are pre-locked in and confirmed) and because its small amounts, it gives consumers trust of the third party service ( i never recommend throwing your entire hoard into third parties) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: hellscabane on July 28, 2014, 02:23:45 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. As mentioned, payment processors is the way to settle this. Payment processors "solve" two of the "traditional problems" that I see with only relying on the blockchain: Point-of-Sale "speed" (i.e. a check to see sufficient funds or credit in order to process a sale), and the more pressing issue of "volume" (it'd be a continuous cycle of expansion to modify the blockchain to accept the amount of transactions that are done in credit/debit form).No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. However, the idea of having an intermediary processing a majority of the funds and in essence functioning as a bank of some sort is a vast decry from the tenets of bitcoin. [I honestly feel that as bitcoin gains further traction and usage, some places will need to mitigate the risk of micro-transactions. And this will involve more places adopting a model in which you will need to keep your funds in an online wallet in order for them to be readily accessible. Could you imagine Coinbase being the next "Visa/Mastercard" and having the supporting infrastructure and risk mitigation to support the amount of transactions that are currently performed on a daily basis?] Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: LiteCoinGuy on July 28, 2014, 02:34:54 PM i dont see a problem here. every brick and mortar store can accept btc for a sale of a 40 USD jeans without waiting 10 minutes or longer.
and for online business: payment channels and more will the invented with zero waiting. (and of course you can use Litecoin, its faster :P ) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Gumbork on July 28, 2014, 02:36:53 PM Agree, btc taking too long. But everyone seems to only like BTC for some reason..
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: roslinpl on July 28, 2014, 02:41:48 PM Agree, btc taking too long. But everyone seems to only like BTC for some reason.. For a reason that bitcoin is a cradle of the crypto currency and so far itis the best of them. Maybe sometimes confirmations take a bit long so perhaps this is some issue for shops accepting bitcoin but so far those merchants who accepted bitcoin are not complaining at all or I missed something :-) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Brooker on July 28, 2014, 02:47:14 PM Why are you complaining? International money transfer takes much longer. because the OP thinks thinks that credit cards are different. which they arnt. bitcoins are faster than credit cards, the only difference is that it requires that extra layer (a third party to insure signed transactions). Ugh, yep, it's so annoying when people complain about this. They obviously have no idea how either credit cards work or bitcoins and their payment processors. This isnt a problem at all. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: leex1528 on July 28, 2014, 02:56:35 PM What is the average time for 1 confirmation? 15-30 minutes ? That isn't exactly terrible considering a lot of banks have a 3 business day policy...
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: peeveepee on July 28, 2014, 02:57:53 PM What is the average time for 1 confirmation? 15-30 minutes ? That isn't exactly terrible considering a lot of banks have a 3 business day policy... Yes. Actually, 1st confirmation usually is around 10 mins based on my experience. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: farlack on July 28, 2014, 03:28:13 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Who the heck makes you wait an hour? I've done several in person transactions with bitcoin and I got my coin, they got their stuff, we both left right away. Unless you're running a super computer in your back pocket linked up to all the satellites in space, and every computer on the planet, I don't think your android is going to scam me of $15. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: fonsie on July 28, 2014, 03:28:25 PM First they complain that bitcoin is too difficult for normal people, then they complain that confirmation time is too long and 0-confirmation is not sufficient, because the same people that were too dumb for bitcoin are now doing double spends.
I see the logic... NOT I would trust my customers today with transactions above 10 000$ and 0 confirmations, because I know where they live. For transactions of 50-100$, who will go through the trouble and the small success rate, wouldn't it be easier to just steal the thing. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: dancupid on July 28, 2014, 03:52:43 PM In my experience of using bitcoin, the only times I've ever had to wait >0 confirmations is when using exchanges - these exchanges will not accept credit cards or paypal (since they do not trust the illusion of 'instant' payment they offer).
Every other time I've paid for anything with bitcoin, 0 confirmation transactions were accepted and the transaction was instantaneous. Which merchants are not accepting 0 confirmation transactions? Perhaps we need a list. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: BillyBobJoe on July 28, 2014, 04:01:07 PM We don't need any company like Visa or Mastercard. We're trying to get away from those type of companies. And like the user above says we already have services like Bitpay that cover these transactions so its irrelevant. How about you not worry about this "any company" so that others MAY use that service IF they desire? Nobody said you must use it. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: minerpumpkin on July 28, 2014, 04:27:36 PM They really don't take too long. The transaction itself gets recognized and propagated through the network almost instantaneously! It takes a mere 1-3 seconds. If effectively all nodes have accepted that transaction and if it is likely to be included in the next block, you really don't have to care about the actual confirmation! Only wait for multiple confirmations when a lot of money is involved. That takes time in the regular payment systems, as well. Oh and credit cards work the same way, they accept your payment and the actual money only comes after multiple weeks or so.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 04:47:44 PM The confirmations take too long.
I get that the risk of double spend is very low, extremely low, especially for low value purchases. But without using a third party to process the risk is still too high. I write a check and it bounces, they have my identification they can come after me with, etc. What do they have with bitcoin? Third party payment processing does solve the problem because the third party can see the transaction of the network before it is confirmed, validate that it has a fee miners are likely to accept, etc. and give approval - but the whole fucking point of crypto-currency is to free us from the need of third party control over the flow of money - and that freedom is often used as a selling point. So saying the solution is to use third party processing (for a percentage of the purchase price) is a bullshit answer. Bitcoin simply wasn't designed for transactions where a fast confirmation is needed. But it doesn't have to be the one coin that meets all needs. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: dancupid on July 28, 2014, 05:01:45 PM The confirmations take too long. I get that the risk of double spend is very low, extremely low, especially for low value purchases. But without using a third party to process the risk is still too high. I write a check and it bounces, they have my identification they can come after me with, etc. What do they have with bitcoin? Third party payment processing does solve the problem because the third party can see the transaction of the network before it is confirmed, validate that it has a fee miners are likely to accept, etc. and give approval - but the whole fucking point of crypto-currency is to free us from the need of third party control over the flow of money - and that freedom is often used as a selling point. So saying the solution is to use third party processing (for a percentage of the purchase price) is a bullshit answer. Bitcoin simply wasn't designed for transactions where a fast confirmation is needed. But it doesn't have to be the one coin that meets all needs. Can you provide an actual example of when you used Bitcoin and the transaction processing was too slow? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Lauda on July 28, 2014, 05:05:15 PM Why are you complaining? International money transfer takes much longer. because the OP thinks thinks that credit cards are different. which they arnt. bitcoins are faster than credit cards, the only difference is that it requires that extra layer (a third party to insure signed transactions). if the OP only wants to accept confirmed tx's this is where a bitcoin debit service can easily come in. where people use a service they pre-deposit small daily spend amounts (to get pre confirmed) and then they can spend instantly. (research offchain tx's much like mtgox codes or btc-e codes work to send between members) like i said for small daily spend amounts offchain tx's solve this problem. as it gives trust to the merchantof receiving funds (because the funds are pre-locked in and confirmed) and because its small amounts, it gives consumers trust of the third party service ( i never recommend throwing your entire hoard into third parties) Yes, I actually had a cc which got into a minus balance (even though I told the bank that I don't want it to be able to go under 0). What actually happened is that I was doing many transactions, but VISA actually processed most of them only on the 20th day of the month. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: RodeoX on July 28, 2014, 05:05:51 PM It seems long to us. But the next fastest method, credit cards, can takes days to confirm. Sure the retailer let's you walk out of the store, but he has no way of knowing if your good for the money until later. With bitcoin, confirmation is confirmation of a transfer of wealth and completes the transaction.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jonald_fyookball on July 28, 2014, 05:25:35 PM Maybe what we need is a company like Visa or MC to supply a service where we deposit bitcoin and they issue the charge as fiat there wouldn't be any conformation time because the confirms would already have happened when you made the deposit. Already exists. Coinbase and GreenAddress provide instant confirmations. Except its even better...no fiat. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 05:27:41 PM It seems long to us. But the next fastest method, credit cards, can takes days to confirm. Sure the retailer let's you walk out of the store, but he has no way of knowing if your good for the money until later. With bitcoin, confirmation is confirmation of a transfer of wealth and completes the transaction. With credit cards, the only real risk the merchant has is if the card is stolen. They can look at the signature and check ID and greatly reduce that risk. If it is your card and you reverse charges, they have the option to take you to court. They don't have that option with bitcoin if you double spend because all they have is a cryptic number that can't easily be tied to an identity. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: RodeoX on July 28, 2014, 05:38:57 PM It seems long to us. But the next fastest method, credit cards, can takes days to confirm. Sure the retailer let's you walk out of the store, but he has no way of knowing if your good for the money until later. With bitcoin, confirmation is confirmation of a transfer of wealth and completes the transaction. With credit cards, the only real risk the merchant has is if the card is stolen. They can look at the signature and check ID and greatly reduce that risk. If it is your card and you reverse charges, they have the option to take you to court. They don't have that option with bitcoin if you double spend because all they have is a cryptic number that can't easily be tied to an identity. That's all certainly true. But consider that in 20-30mins. the retailer has your bitcoin with some confirmations and at that point who cares if your lying about your identity. Kinda like cash. If you pay me in cash and lie about your name, I still have cash and I'll call you Shirley if you want me to. As you point out, cards have little risk because they are backed and insured. Something which we all pay for via fees. Bitcoin offers no such protection and requires more of the user/retailer. The rewards for doing it yourself are greatly reduced fees. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 05:50:24 PM Or in 40 to 70 minutes the merchant finds out you sent the same outputs to 4 other addresses... and the transaction you sent to him was not confirmed.
Equivalent of writing a bad check but he has nothing to go on to recover his losses. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: beetcoin on July 28, 2014, 05:52:29 PM this is another reason i forgot why bitcoin can never replace paper currency, even if delusional people still think that. compound all those microtransactions for .003 btc water and gum purchases, and it will be a big issue.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: vpitcher07 on July 28, 2014, 05:53:50 PM What is the average time for 1 confirmation? 15-30 minutes ? That isn't exactly terrible considering a lot of banks have a 3 business day policy... Yes. Actually, 1st confirmation usually is around 10 mins based on my experience. An average of 10 minutes is by design. Network difficulty adjusts to keep it on a 10 minute basis. If hashrate increases, difficulty increases to keep it at 10 minutes. (Roughly) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: desired_username on July 28, 2014, 05:56:29 PM I've been using BTC for years. I never had any problem due to the confirmation time.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 05:57:14 PM this is another reason i forgot why bitcoin can never replace paper currency, even if delusional people still think that. It's not delusional. There are two kinds of gas stations - those take that credit cards and charge a dime more a gallon to cover losses from processing and chargebacks, and those that only take cash and debit cards where chargebacks are much much harder. Debit cards are more like bitcoin, you have to have the funds - and they don't have the same chargebacks that credit cards have. Yet they can be instantly confirmed. bitcoin once it has confirmed is like debit card but it takes way too long to confirm to be used at something like a gas station. A coin that confirms in 30 seconds or less however is only risky if there is a fork, and that's not very common. bitcoin is a fantastic coin, but not the right one for point of sale. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 05:57:42 PM I've been using BTC for years. I never had any problem due to the confirmation time. Have you used it to buy gas? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: RodeoX on July 28, 2014, 05:59:28 PM Or in 40 to 70 minutes the merchant finds out you sent the same outputs to 4 other addresses... and the transaction you sent to him was not confirmed. True. it's a legit risk. I like using the number of confirmations relative to the amount as a way to mitigate the risk. So if I were selling a car I would want 6 confirmations. If selling a bag of popcorn, I might not even wait for one. Equivalent of writing a bad check but he has nothing to go on to recover his losses. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: dancupid on July 28, 2014, 06:07:44 PM Or in 40 to 70 minutes the merchant finds out you sent the same outputs to 4 other addresses... and the transaction you sent to him was not confirmed. True. it's a legit risk. I like using the number of confirmations relative to the amount as a way to mitigate the risk. So if I were selling a car I would want 6 confirmations. If selling a bag of popcorn, I might not even wait for one. Equivalent of writing a bad check but he has nothing to go on to recover his losses. There is no single instance in the entire history of Bitcoin of this ever occurring. The same output has to occur in the same moment of the initial transaction and has to be propagated on the network in such a way that is is impossible to detect before the thief runs away with the swag (his coffee). Any merchant who is worrying about this should not be running a business - there is more chance that the cash they are accepting is a forgery, or that the customer is a suicide bomber about to kill everyone in the shop. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 06:08:38 PM Or in 40 to 70 minutes the merchant finds out you sent the same outputs to 4 other addresses... and the transaction you sent to him was not confirmed. True. it's a legit risk. I like using the number of confirmations relative to the amount as a way to mitigate the risk. So if I were selling a car I would want 6 confirmations. If selling a bag of popcorn, I might not even wait for one. Equivalent of writing a bad check but he has nothing to go on to recover his losses. Selling a car you can wait, but the wait time at places like the grocery store where the cost is often several hundred dollars would kill the checkout. So the only way those places could accept bitcoin is through 3rd party, making bitcoin not the best coin for them. Other coins however have much lower risk. With 30 second confirms at a grocery store there is much less time to try and pull a double spend so the risk of letting them leave before confirm is far less than with bitcoin. And if you do see a double spend hit the network before a confirm you may even be able to have your security record their license plate number because it would have to very quickly be executed. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 06:10:40 PM There is no single instance in the entire history of Bitcoin of this ever occurring. Where do bitcoin transaction over $100 in value take place? Outside of Internet where you can wait for confirms before shipping, they are quite rare. There's a reason. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: fonsie on July 28, 2014, 06:22:30 PM Or in 40 to 70 minutes the merchant finds out you sent the same outputs to 4 other addresses... and the transaction you sent to him was not confirmed. True. it's a legit risk. I like using the number of confirmations relative to the amount as a way to mitigate the risk. So if I were selling a car I would want 6 confirmations. If selling a bag of popcorn, I might not even wait for one. Equivalent of writing a bad check but he has nothing to go on to recover his losses. Selling a car you can wait, but the wait time at places like the grocery store where the cost is often several hundred dollars would kill the checkout. So the only way those places could accept bitcoin is through 3rd party, making bitcoin not the best coin for them. Other coins however have much lower risk. With 30 second confirms at a grocery store there is much less time to try and pull a double spend so the risk of letting them leave before confirm is far less than with bitcoin. And if you do see a double spend hit the network before a confirm you may even be able to have your security record their license plate number because it would have to very quickly be executed. There's no need to try performing a double spend, just steal the grocery bag, much easier. Better to keep the entire network safe by 10 min confirmation, instead of those altcoins with seconds of confirmation times just so that mommy/teller can see it's confirmed, but when she comes home, the entire thing has gone to shit. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 06:49:07 PM There's no need to try performing a double spend, just steal the grocery bag
Not really a smart way to do it. You never know when there will be a citizen hero who wants to impress a checkout girl. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Mageant on July 28, 2014, 06:53:33 PM How about some "transaction processing" service that works together with the payment processors and the large mining pools.
The payment processor notifies this service of a valid transaction and this service would then notify the mining pools of the valid transaction. The mining pools would agree only to include the valid transaction and not any possible double spends of it. That way you could have instant confirmation of even large transactions (probably at a slightly higher cost). Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Hazir on July 28, 2014, 06:55:05 PM We don't need any company, any regulations any outside 'company'. It would be disaster really. If something like that will happen bitcoin would be no different than paying with credit card or paypal really.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: fonsie on July 28, 2014, 06:56:20 PM There's no need to try performing a double spend, just steal the grocery bag Not really a smart way to do it. You never know when there will be a citizen hero who wants to impress a checkout girl. That same hero can have a sharp eye for double spending granny's and stall them for 10 minutes.... Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Beliathon on July 28, 2014, 07:00:55 PM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Lauda on July 28, 2014, 07:20:52 PM This might be an issue in places such as a grocery store, where the transactions aren't that high but move very quickly.
If you are buying something that usually costs a few thousand, using Bitcoin, waiting shouldn't be an issue for both parties. Buying online using BTC works well too. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 07:47:21 PM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? Bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to determine if the increasing value is an intrinsic property of the currency. Some people bought and spent when it was over $1,000 - how long do they have to wait to see increasing value? -=- Joe empties his phone. Sends half a btc to his phone as dust inputs. Goes to Raley's, all his inputs are dust resulting in a very large kb transaction of fresh dust - which he doesn't pay a fee on. When will the transaction be confirmed? Meanwhile his shell script detects the spend, waits for two failed confirmations (at which point Joe is long gone) and then double spends them with a transaction fee. Miners see the transaction with a fee and confirm it. Didn't cost Joe anything, worst case scenario is some miner confirms the first spend and he pays for his groceries. Normal scenario, he's already in his car by the time the next block happens and long gone by the time the grocer sees 2 blocks w/o a confirm. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ajareselde on July 28, 2014, 08:09:31 PM Bitcoin isnt made to be a tool for grocery shopping, but for the store of value, and transactions of value, like sending money across the globe.
Sadly, bitcoin developers failed miserably so far, and the fact that there are only 3 of them full time, on an 8 billion usd market cap. is a pure comedy. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: RodeoX on July 28, 2014, 08:14:38 PM There are a million ways to avoid these risks. For example my grocery store is a co-op and requires membership. If I were to pay with bitcoins I'm sure they would just let me walk out. If it was a fraudulent transaction, they know where to find me. I also never have had to wait for confirmation at a restaurant.
Think about personal checks, for example. That is nothing more than an I.O.U. The seller has no way of knowing if it is real or if I have money in my account. This is a non-issue as far as I can see. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: greenearplugs on July 28, 2014, 08:30:01 PM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? Joe empties his phone. Sends half a btc to his phone as dust inputs. Goes to Raley's, all his inputs are dust resulting in a very large kb transaction of fresh dust - which he doesn't pay a fee on. When will the transaction be confirmed? Meanwhile his shell script detects the spend, waits for two failed confirmations (at which point Joe is long gone) and then double spends them with a transaction fee. Miners see the transaction with a fee and confirm it. Didn't cost Joe anything, worst case scenario is some miner confirms the first spend and he pays for his groceries. Normal scenario, he's already in his car by the time the next block happens and long gone by the time the grocer sees 2 blocks w/o a confirm. wouldn't it be fairly easy for a merchant wallet to check for this type of thing. If any of the above scenarios are true, then the customer would have to wait for full confirmation. Basically, wait 10 seconds, have the merchant wallet check for double spends. 10 seconds is enough of a head start that the first transaction should be propagated to enough of the network to make double spending unpractical. Satoshi addressed this here. Are there any flaws in his plan?: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819 Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 08:34:01 PM There are a million ways to avoid these risks. For example my grocery store is a co-op and requires membership. Sure, a business can design its model around crypto-currency but most businesses don't. And people generally don't like having to join to buy things. Another thing a business can do is only accept crypto-currencies with a rapid confirm. I think it is silly to assume there can only be one, and a bit dangerous. What happens when there is a problem in the bitcoin network? You don't want single points of failure, you want multiple crypto-currencies. And bitcoin will ultimately fail unless there are multiple crypto-currencies. There's a lot of sh*coins, we need to find (or create) the few worthy and get them going so they don't drown out in the sea of scams. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Beliathon on July 28, 2014, 08:39:49 PM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? Bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to determine if the increasing value is an intrinsic property of the currency. In fact, the earliest big investors DID correctly predict that reality. Today we call those people "smart money", and many of them are "Bitcoin millionaires". Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 28, 2014, 10:32:45 PM It's only a scarce resource if adoption grows faster than coins supplied.
Adoption may not be what you expect if altcoins that fix some of the issues with bitcoin survive and supply the demand. And without some of them surviving I don't think bitcoin will either. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 06:51:42 AM <Reality check> Sorry sir, that's complete and utter bullcrap. Over the past two years I have done many, many bitcoin payments in point of sale situations (shops, restaurants, pubs, markets, street vendors, you name it) and never, EVER did anyone request that I await even a single confirmation. Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. I reckon you just totally made up the the "sometimes make you wait almost an hour", right? Did you even ONCE, ever see anyone having to wait for 6 confirmations when paying with bitcoins? Oh, and as for 'reality check', I run an online business. I'll tell you what reality is: paypal disputes, and chargebacks and credit card fraud. Having to wait for weeks or even months for your money, and still pay ridiculous fees. Getting all sorts of problems where customer from country X cannot pay on a website in country Y, because random bank restriction Z. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 07:25:29 AM Is gold a deflationary resource, and has that been a problem during the past few thousand years? (that is, until central banks decided it would be more fun for them if they had the ability to create virtual money out of thin air)
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Meuh6879 on July 29, 2014, 07:28:10 AM Sorry sir, that's complete and utter bullcrap. Over the past two years I have done many, many bitcoin payments in point of sale situations (shops, restaurants, pubs, markets, street vendors, you name it) and never, EVER did anyone request that I await even a single confirmation. I reckon you just totally made up the the "sometimes make you wait almost an hour", right? Did you even ONCE, ever see anyone having to wait for 6 confirmations when paying with bitcoins? Oh, and as for 'reality check', I run an online business. I'll tell you what reality is: paypal disputes, and chargebacks and credit card fraud. Having to wait for weeks or even months for your money, and still pay ridiculous fees. Getting all sorts of problems where customer from country X cannot pay on a website in country Y, because random bank restriction Z. really, really true. If you receive the transaction on the device, it's done ... because transaction is transmit from "at most" 4 nodes. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: gerXhonza on July 29, 2014, 08:52:38 AM Merchants just have to learn use Bitcoin, most purchases can be accepted with 0 confirmations and simply the order automatically cancelled if not getting confirmation later or doublespend.
It will take some time and competetion before 0 confirmations will be widely accepted, and for rare situations with instant services with a lot of money in risk if doublespend like dice sites, 1 confirmation is more than enought for such secured Bitcoin by insane hashpower Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AliceWonder on July 29, 2014, 08:56:24 AM Merchants just have to learn use Bitcoin, most purchases can be accepted with 0 confirmations and simply the order automatically cancelled if not getting confirmation later or doublespend. It will take some time and competetion before 0 confirmations will be widely accepted, and for rare situations with instant services with a lot of money in risk if doublespend like dice sites, 1 confirmation is more than enought for such secured Bitcoin by insane hashpower The problem isn't websites, bitcoin is fine for *almost* every type of web purchase. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: gtraah on July 29, 2014, 09:17:25 AM Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor. Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility? Joe empties his phone. Sends half a btc to his phone as dust inputs. Goes to Raley's, all his inputs are dust resulting in a very large kb transaction of fresh dust - which he doesn't pay a fee on. When will the transaction be confirmed? Meanwhile his shell script detects the spend, waits for two failed confirmations (at which point Joe is long gone) and then double spends them with a transaction fee. Miners see the transaction with a fee and confirm it. Didn't cost Joe anything, worst case scenario is some miner confirms the first spend and he pays for his groceries. Normal scenario, he's already in his car by the time the next block happens and long gone by the time the grocer sees 2 blocks w/o a confirm. wouldn't it be fairly easy for a merchant wallet to check for this type of thing. If any of the above scenarios are true, then the customer would have to wait for full confirmation. Basically, wait 10 seconds, have the merchant wallet check for double spends. 10 seconds is enough of a head start that the first transaction should be propagated to enough of the network to make double spending unpractical. Satoshi addressed this here. Are there any flaws in his plan?: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819 So what happened to Satoshis theory As this person stated? Satoshi's comment PASTED IN HERE VV ********************* I believe it'll be possible for a payment processing company to provide as a service the rapid distribution of transactions with good-enough checking in something like 10 seconds or less. The network nodes only accept the first version of a transaction they receive to incorporate into the block they're trying to generate. When you broadcast a transaction, if someone else broadcasts a double-spend at the same time, it's a race to propagate to the most nodes first. If one has a slight head start, it'll geometrically spread through the network faster and get most of the nodes. A rough back-of-the-envelope example: 1 0 4 1 16 4 64 16 80% 20% So if a double-spend has to wait even a second, it has a huge disadvantage. The payment processor has connections with many nodes. When it gets a transaction, it blasts it out, and at the same time monitors the network for double-spends. If it receives a double-spend on any of its many listening nodes, then it alerts that the transaction is bad. A double-spent transaction wouldn't get very far without one of the listeners hearing it. The double-spender would have to wait until the listening phase is over, but by then, the payment processor's broadcast has reached most nodes, or is so far ahead in propagating that the double-spender has no hope of grabbing a significant percentage of the remaining nodes. ********************************** Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here? Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 10:12:11 AM Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here? Roughly spoken, yes they do this already. They scan for any incoming payments, and when they see one, they try to detect any conflicting payments (double spend attempts). If that doesn't occur for a few seconds, they assume it's safe to accept the transaction. There's a lot of theoretical debate around this (especially involving mining pools running customized software, such as Eligius and BitUndo) but in every day practice this turns out to work extremely well and very secure. Quote Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around. No, no, NO! A common misconception. 1. Other coins do NOT have faster transaction times. Bitcoin's P2P network is by far the biggest, and (unlike centralized models and networks) the more nodes and connections, the faster it distributes data. Bitcoin transactions are faster than any other coin. 2. Other coins also do NOT have faster confirmation times when measuring certainty against waiting time (i.e. the only thing that really matters). People confuse certainty (probability that a transactions remains final) with the number of blocks that include the transaction, without taking into account how much processing is actually required to find such one block. Yes, the more blocks a transaction, the higher its certainty, but Bitcoin provides MUCH more certainty per block than other coins. For example, Litecoin has 4x faster blocks (every 2.5 minutes instead of 10). This means the average calculation time to find a block is 4x less. This also means it's 4x easier to 'undo' a block (mine an alternative block to fork the blockchain). This means 1 Bitcoin block would offer the same amount of certainty as 4 Litecoins blocks! And that still only holds when Bitcoin and Litecoin networks would have equal hashing power. But that's not the case: Bitcoin's total hashing power is MUCH more than Litecoin's or even all other coins combined. So in fact, one Bitcoin block provides even MUCH more security than 4 Litecoin blocks! TL;DR = Bitcoin wins. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: BADecker on July 29, 2014, 10:23:05 AM As technology increases, confirmations will get faster and faster. The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved.
:) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 10:25:11 AM The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved. 'will' outpace? it has already done so, over 5 years ago :)Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: BADecker on July 29, 2014, 10:29:39 AM The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved. 'will' outpace? it has already done so, over 5 years ago :)In some ways, yes. Yet a fiat transaction at an ATM is done in seconds, with a receipt that shows your balance. It still takes Bitcoin a few minutes, usually, for confirmation. :) Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Meuh6879 on July 29, 2014, 10:30:02 AM Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here? Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around. here is a debuglog of what a bitcoin core work on "delete" transactions : Code: 2014-07-29 09:30:12 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED Code: 2014-07-28 08:26:00 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED Code: 2014-07-28 05:26:44 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED . . . ;D Code: 2014-07-28 03:14:07 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Meuh6879 on July 29, 2014, 10:35:21 AM :D almost 6 connexions per second ... in this last debuglog.
at this time with bitcoin core ... you can't emit double-spending. corrupted pool can ... to his clients only (reward payment for mining job). Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: giveBTCpls on July 29, 2014, 11:52:37 AM This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make. But what they don't get tho, is the fact credit card opperations don't get confirmed instantly per se and no one ever questions credit card operations. At least with Bitcoin you can keep track of your operations in an open source fashion (blockchain). With credit cards you are just trusting they don't fuck shit up.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Whitehouse on July 29, 2014, 12:15:34 PM This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make. But what they don't get tho, is the fact credit card opperations don't get confirmed instantly per se and no one ever questions credit card operations. At least with Bitcoin you can keep track of your operations in an open source fashion (blockchain). With credit cards you are just trusting they don't fuck shit up. Just explain to them that credit card companies are payment processors and bitcoin uses payment processors with merchants anyway, so there's not much difference here except bitcoins are both faster and cheaper. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: mysidia on July 29, 2014, 12:18:21 PM So a merchant would generally only wait for confirmations for large transactions. For small transactions it is enough to detect the transaction is in the network, i.e. more or less instant. I have yet to see or hear of a merchant that doesn't require a minimum of at least 1 confirmation. In theory, it might not be needed, at least if there is a sufficient transaction fee to prioritize it. However, I believe the merchants/processors are all practicing CYA / "better safe than sorry," and requiring a minimum of 1 confirm, for even the smallest transaction, and larger transactions/operaations generally requiring 4 or more confirms. Perhaps in the future, buyers will acquire some sort of insurance card or "performance bond" requiring a small deposit with a trusted third party reputation service to demonstrate to the merchant who will publish the buyer's "Wallet Address" in a merchant-accessible database of bonded addresses. And the merchant will treat payments from listed addresses as immediately confirmed, based on their reputation. However if the buyer double spends in less than 48 hours, and the merchant can later demonstrate that they were given a signed transaction which not get confirmed, by submitting a copy; the buyer will be alerted and given a short time to settle up. E.g. 5 days to replace the double spent transaction before their reputation status is suspended, deposit is taken to pay the merchant, and they get a bill in the mail in the amount of an agreed upon "penalty". Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: mysidia on July 29, 2014, 12:34:31 PM It's a scarce resource, deflationary in nature. Of course it's an intrinsic property. One could've predicted that before Bitcoin was even launched if Satoshi described the limited nature of the currency. In fact, the earliest big investors DID correctly predict that reality. Today we call those people "smart money", and many of them are "Bitcoin millionaires". They took a risk; it appeared most probable at that time that a BTC would eventually be worth $0. It is not a fundamental law that Bitcoin is deflationary. In fact... right now; it is inflationary in the sense that new Bitcoins are still being added to the system. Just because the supply is limited does not mean it will be deflationary, however. This depends on the amount of economic activity, with regards to BTC changing hands, which affects the supply and demand of BTCs. I would like to point out --- that not even 10 million actual BTCs necessarily have to exist to support an annual GDP of 10 billion BTC, as long as only consumers are using them and merchants are not holding the BTCs; the BTCs get sold right back to the exchanges, and effectively, the exchanges eventually start working like central banks... Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Jace on July 29, 2014, 12:40:25 PM I have yet to see or hear of a merchant that doesn't require a minimum of at least 1 confirmation. In theory, it might not be needed, at least if there is a sufficient transaction fee to prioritize it. Are you kidding? For example here in Arnhem, there are plenty of places that accept Bitcoin, and *none* of them requires waiting for any confirmations.However, I believe the merchants/processors are all practicing CYA / "better safe than sorry," and requiring a minimum of 1 confirm, for even the smallest transaction, and larger transactions/operaations generally requiring 4 or more confirms. Doesn't matter whether you pay for a cup of coffee, or hundreds of euros for a family dinner in a restaurant. Instant payment, NO confirmations needed whatsoever. That's the ones accepting Bitcoin directly, as well as the ones using a payment provider. So far, thousands of euros worth of bitcoins has been spent, and exactly ZERO cents have been at risk / charged back / double spent. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 12:43:41 PM This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make. No it's not. Really, the complaint is simply not legitimate. Let them point out just ONE situation where paying with bitcoins requires you to wait for a confirmation. This 'problem' exists only in their imagination.Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: fonsie on July 29, 2014, 01:23:55 PM Start watching at 17:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2q9pItnO0U They also mention that altcoins are highley insecure. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: V8x8d on July 29, 2014, 01:59:57 PM This point will be nonsense when bank bail-ins are triggered and people are locked out of their bank accounts for days or weeks waiting to see what remains. I purchased Bitcoin as a hedge against Fiat (Gold/Silver are the best store of wealth, however are not liquid enough). If 100% of my online purchases in the future are made via Bitcoin then I care not about how I pay for my groceries/petrol. At this point the network will be secure and Bitcoin will be a store of wealth and I no longer need to worry about counterparty risk.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: TheChosenOne on July 29, 2014, 03:29:05 PM Payment processors are the answer my mate.
You can also work with 'approved' addresses or something like that where a merchant trusts an address that has succesfully been used before. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: greenearplugs on July 29, 2014, 03:32:37 PM i've been in many discussions on this exact topic and have yet to here a good response. Even peter todd's double spending could be prevented with a simple smart wallet that checks for and flags any transactions that don't come from "vanilla" sources. If there is anything even remotely suspicious, then the transaction is flagged, and the customer is not allowed to leave the store with the product.
Anyone with more technical knowledge care to refute satoshi here? So what happened to Satoshis theory As this person stated? Satoshi's comment PASTED IN HERE VV ********************* I believe it'll be possible for a payment processing company to provide as a service the rapid distribution of transactions with good-enough checking in something like 10 seconds or less. The network nodes only accept the first version of a transaction they receive to incorporate into the block they're trying to generate. When you broadcast a transaction, if someone else broadcasts a double-spend at the same time, it's a race to propagate to the most nodes first. If one has a slight head start, it'll geometrically spread through the network faster and get most of the nodes. A rough back-of-the-envelope example: 1 0 4 1 16 4 64 16 80% 20% So if a double-spend has to wait even a second, it has a huge disadvantage. The payment processor has connections with many nodes. When it gets a transaction, it blasts it out, and at the same time monitors the network for double-spends. If it receives a double-spend on any of its many listening nodes, then it alerts that the transaction is bad. A double-spent transaction wouldn't get very far without one of the listeners hearing it. The double-spender would have to wait until the listening phase is over, but by then, the payment processor's broadcast has reached most nodes, or is so far ahead in propagating that the double-spender has no hope of grabbing a significant percentage of the remaining nodes. ********************************** Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here? Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ensurance982 on July 29, 2014, 03:44:27 PM I have yet to see or hear of a merchant that doesn't require a minimum of at least 1 confirmation. In theory, it might not be needed, at least if there is a sufficient transaction fee to prioritize it. Are you kidding? For example here in Arnhem, there are plenty of places that accept Bitcoin, and *none* of them requires waiting for any confirmations.However, I believe the merchants/processors are all practicing CYA / "better safe than sorry," and requiring a minimum of 1 confirm, for even the smallest transaction, and larger transactions/operaations generally requiring 4 or more confirms. Doesn't matter whether you pay for a cup of coffee, or hundreds of euros for a family dinner in a restaurant. Instant payment, NO confirmations needed whatsoever. That's the ones accepting Bitcoin directly, as well as the ones using a payment provider. So far, thousands of euros worth of bitcoins has been spent, and exactly ZERO cents have been at risk / charged back / double spent. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to scam someone for a more few dollars or euros! You'd really have to control a lot of hashing power to perform such a double spend effectively. If the transaction has spread and most of the nodes accepted the 'real' transaction, you're most likely fine! Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Kazimir on July 29, 2014, 04:13:36 PM Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to scam someone for a more few dollars or euros! You probably understand this, but just to emphasize for all those people who are still skeptical: it doesn't just not make sense, it's impossible. At least not without spending many, many thousands of dollars worth of resources, and then still only have a limited chance of success.A merchant can accept Bitcoin zero-confirmation payments not just because his customers are such nice people that they won't scam him for a few bucks (or a few hunderd bucks). He can accept Bitcoin zero-confirmation payments because of how Bitcoin works. Again, there's a lot of theoretical debate around this (I know Peter Todd mentioned a few tricks) but in daily practice, this is what it boils down to. Bitcoin works absolutely fine in point of sale situations. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Sitarow on July 29, 2014, 04:23:10 PM Payment processors are the answer my mate. You can also work with 'approved' addresses or something like that where a merchant trusts an address that has succesfully been used before. It has been discussed over the years. Indeed what you state is the next step service providers can monopolies on. However as Litecoin is another network that is used for payment at merchants and with the advent of scrypt asics that network will show more promise for fast stable transactions. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ensurance982 on July 29, 2014, 04:28:00 PM Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to scam someone for a more few dollars or euros! You probably understand this, but just to emphasize for all those people who are still skeptical: it doesn't just not make sense, it's impossible. At least not without spending many, many thousands of dollars worth of resources, and then still only have a limited chance of success.A merchant can accept Bitcoin zero-confirmation payments not just because his customers are such nice people that they won't scam him for a few bucks (or a few hunderd bucks). He can accept Bitcoin zero-confirmation payments because of how Bitcoin works. Again, there's a lot of theoretical debate around this (I know Peter Todd mentioned a few tricks) but in daily practice, this is what it boils down to. Bitcoin works absolutely fine in point of sale situations. Actually, if the merchant is running a simple BitcoinQT-like terminal you could try to connect to it with your Bitcoin node. Then you issue a transaction that pays for your coffee. But at the same time (or with a slight delay, some people wrote a paper) you issue a transaction to all other nodes (and mining pools) that spends the same Bitcoin (inputs), that paid for your coffee, to an address you control. Now the merchant thinks you paid for your coffee, but in reality it's the transaction that transferred the BTC to your own account, that gets confirmed and included in the Blockchain. But there are ways of working around this. You have to simply look for transactions that are doing exactly this and don't accept them. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: bitsmichel on July 29, 2014, 04:44:48 PM Payment processors are the answer my mate. You can also work with 'approved' addresses or something like that where a merchant trusts an address that has succesfully been used before. It has been discussed over the years. Indeed what you state is the next step service providers can monopolies on. However as Litecoin is another network that is used for payment at merchants and with the advent of scrypt asics that network will show more promise for fast stable transactions. Bitcoin transactions are extremely fast, if you consider the slow banking system. The litecoin network may be faster, but it doesn't have such a large user base. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: tss on July 30, 2014, 07:40:10 AM who can send $1B across the world and have it be FINAL in a few hours?
huh? who? how? i'm listening? i would really like to know. ohh wait.. BITCOIN! you were never meant to buy groceries with btc or your favorite red bull. stop posting the same thing every week! Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Harley997 on July 30, 2014, 02:15:55 PM Having to wait to spend your BTC is annoying, I agree. Although it's less than a hour I can get my brother to transfer me as much as I wanted and have the money in there in a matter of seconds (UK has instant bank transfers) The one reason why I still chose BTC though is because I cut out EVERYTHING to do with banks, I cannot tell you enough how much I hate banks they have took so much money from me over the years I would prefer to take my money put it on a USB, fly half way across the world and still use the same currency rather go through the hassle of exchanging it, then paying fees for exchanging, them paying fees and effort to exchange it back to main currency you had, I find it really annoying, as someone who has travelled over 50-100 times and into 30 countries I hate thinking exchanging, how much X with worth in Y etc.
EDIT: Also the guy above me, I cannot agree more with you, you tell me who can send $1b across the other side of the world for and have it finalized in less than a hour and pay close to nothing fees!! Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: qiuxiang on August 06, 2014, 10:12:51 PM who can send $1B across the world and have it be FINAL in a few hours? huh? who? how? i'm listening? i would really like to know. ohh wait.. BITCOIN! you were never meant to buy groceries with btc or your favorite red bull. stop posting the same thing every week! Bitcoin is convenient for international wire. However, bitcoin is used more as a payment approach, and in this case, tens of minutes is too long, think about you want to buy something and you have to wait tens of minutes for the payment to go through. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: doubleredrolex on August 06, 2014, 11:17:02 PM You just wait the 10 seconds for it to show up on the block chain and you are good. Don't forget that i can go buy something with my visa and call the bank 2 days later and reverse the transaction saying my card was stolen or whatever. There is no need for the merchant to make you wait around for 40 min for 3 or 4 confirmations unless you are buying something big like a $50,000 car or something. They could always ask for your ID for larger transactions if they don't trust you. The buyer can't reverse it anyways after they hit send on their cell phone. Once it hits block chain.info then you are probably ok. If i was buying 100 BTC from someone for cash, then i might make them wait around for a couple confirmations just in case... haha.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Razick on August 06, 2014, 11:40:53 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. I agree. It would be nice to speed things up, but even if we don't, it's still great for internet purchases. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: BittBurger on August 07, 2014, 01:58:45 AM Agree with topic. Unfortunately no solutions on the horizon. Wahhh!
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: bitkilo on August 07, 2014, 02:31:06 AM Purchased a drink the other day and guy told me i would have to wait for min 4 confirmations before i could drink it, lol
I paid in fiat and drank up Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Gleb Gamow on March 04, 2017, 12:25:32 AM Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Yuuto on March 04, 2017, 12:28:56 AM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. That is true. If you were just buying a coffee from a merchant, and you're paying bitcoins to him, he would need to wait for 1 confirmation unless you are a long term customer which the merchant trusts. So it sort of defeats the purpose of bitcoin in the first place. By the time you get a confirmation you probably are late for work. Especially when if you pay 0.0001 fee it isn't enough for first block confirmations anymore. That used to be the case, now you have to pay more like 0.0004 per transaction to get it through quick, which with the soaring bitcoin price isn't that good. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Tribizz on April 10, 2017, 03:25:57 PM I agree
It took me 30 minutes to confirm a transaction Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Heyo:P on April 10, 2017, 03:32:29 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. Yes, very much so yes!No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Perhaps if the community could agree on Segwit or BTU things would speed up, but for now transactions are so unbelievably slow (even when you're paying .5$ transaction fees). I really do think something should be done, I'm just not sure what. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Harlot on April 10, 2017, 03:38:21 PM It's not that bad Bitcoin transactions are tolerable for people who actually is not waiting for it to come. But it can be a big concern for businesses who actually is in need for that money instantly or sometging what credit cards do in which the banks gives an assurance they they will get paid for what the customers bought. Right now Bitcoin transactions is not yet into the hearts of businessmen to be part of their daily businesses.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: susila_bai on April 10, 2017, 03:39:24 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Ya it is true that due to confirmation delay bitcoin is getting some negative points when dealing with merchant transaction as if the buyer sends the bitcoins with low fees, then the transaction takes more then 24 hrs time and their are chances of the transaction getting cancelled also, So still their is lot of time for bitcoin to get accepted by merchants. Right now it is good for investment and gambling type uses only. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: roadbits on April 10, 2017, 03:51:54 PM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Ya it is true that due to confirmation delay bitcoin is getting some negative points when dealing with merchant transaction as if the buyer sends the bitcoins with low fees, then the transaction takes more then 24 hrs time and their are chances of the transaction getting cancelled also, So still their is lot of time for bitcoin to get accepted by merchants. Right now it is good for investment and gambling type uses only. This is the major disadvantage in Bitcoin, If it gets solved, then I think all merchants will accept Bitcoin, and it will become more popular in the real world. Now in the real world, many people still don't know what Bitcoin that is why they are not improving Bitcoin is. Once everyone started to addict to this bitcoin then automatically they will improve and solve this issue. But I think it will take many years to fix this problem. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: The One on April 10, 2017, 04:10:25 PM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations. Depends on the merchants. Online merchants don't need to worry as any deliveries are not sent out instantly. It's normally sent out after 12 hours. Thus if payment fails to go through then merchants will not honour the purchase. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: tiger5056 on April 10, 2017, 04:18:17 PM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: johnwest on April 10, 2017, 04:21:59 PM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. It will eventually fail if we wont find a solution for the slower confirmations in transactions and fees while sending Bitcoins. People come to Bitcoins in search of minimizing both of them and both got a massive hit right now. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: bitkilo on April 11, 2017, 06:37:54 AM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. People have to stop comparing bitcoin with fiat money and credit/debit card payments. Credit card payment will always be quicker because it is a debt based set up, once you swipe that card you then owe the money to the bank.Bitcoin is different because nobody ever owes you and you don't owe anybody else, once the payment has been sent then it's final, no chargebacks to worry about and less likely or close to impossible to be a fraudulent transaction. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: virasog on April 11, 2017, 07:03:33 AM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. You know , now we are struggling with slower transaction confirmation due to massive transaction every now and then it just means that we are now populating :) to compare to cards around you know cards is one tap to machines can easily get money or fiat. I guess we should stop comparing it since it has different features. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AngryDwarf on April 11, 2017, 07:21:39 AM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. People have to stop comparing bitcoin with fiat money and credit/debit card payments. Credit card payment will always be quicker because it is a debt based set up, once you swipe that card you then owe the money to the bank.Bitcoin is different because nobody ever owes you and you don't owe anybody else, once the payment has been sent then it's final, no chargebacks to worry about and less likely or close to impossible to be a fraudulent transaction. Actually, if blockchains are allowed not allowed to be full for an extended length of time and transaction pools are not allowed to forget transactions and all transactions are eventually confimed, we have instant payments with zero confirmations although they carry a level of economic risk. This risk can be reduced further with a simple double spending proof: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819 https://bitcoinclassic.com/devel/Double%20Spend%20Proofs.html Even a transaction that has 1 confirmation on it is not without economic risk. It could be undone by a chain re-organisation if a longer chain emerges. Most transactions are considered safe after 6 confirms, as the chain re-organisation risk at this level is considered extremely unlikely. The Ferrari dealership might want 100 confirms like a newly minted block before they give you the keys to the car you just bought. Joe Sixpack, landlord of the local pub, would probably be happy accepting a zero confirmation payment because since he will just bar you if you try to rip him off. The latter scenario would probably be better served by an lightning network if you are on a big piss up for the night, as long as you can afford to move your funds into an on chain account to open the channel. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: OliynyK on April 11, 2017, 07:31:38 AM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. I am really surprised to see that the issue was posted by 2014 and i am not sure what made those things smooth and what upgrades were made to counter that ,i thought this was the first time we are encountering the block size issue and guess that is the reason for the delay in confirmation .There are some safe mobile wallet which is endorsed by the bitcoin team . Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AngryDwarf on April 11, 2017, 07:36:57 AM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. I am really surprised to see that the issue was posted by 2014 and i am not sure what made those things smooth and what upgrades were made to counter that ,i thought this was the first time we are encountering the block size issue and guess that is the reason for the delay in confirmation .There are some safe mobile wallet which is endorsed by the bitcoin team . Previously, pools used to implement a soft cap on the blocksize limit, and would increase periodically with demand until it hit the 1MB cap. The problem with this, is that it is just not dynamic enough to cope with burst of high level demand. I believe miners should create more dynamically sized blocks based on any backlog that occurs in the transaction pool. And you want an SPV wallet for your mobile phone, one where you can move funds on-chain into it without paying astronomical fees for the privilege. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: mace15 on April 11, 2017, 08:38:57 AM This is true, no matter how much we used bitcoin everyday the problem is too long to confirmed the transactions. Ive been experiencing this kind of problem but I know it will solved in the long run.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Soul Reaper on April 11, 2017, 08:40:35 AM I totally agree with your freakin point of argument.
I mean this is one of the biggest loop hole of using bitcoins. You can't directly pay via bitcoins for an instantaneous transaction. I mean just think you buy a coffee at Starbucks and you don't have any case, You were going to pay via bitcoins and your transaction is not confirmed. You will have to struggle for a long time. Also the fact that even if these transactions are slow the famous and trusted wallets like block chain still charge a lot of transaction fees. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: shield132 on April 11, 2017, 08:47:56 AM From current situation, my thought has changed and I conclused that bitcoin isn't good for low amount transactions because confirmations are very slow and fees are very higher. But for big amount of money, bitcoin is great because there is no limitation and fees are low for that eve with current situation.
If I amn't wrong there was planned fork and let's see what will happen, maybe fees and confirmations will become lower. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: TrumpD on April 11, 2017, 08:48:55 AM It is actually very fast. Circa ten mins to a few hours, depending on the circumstances.
You just think it's slow because of credit cards, and how you assume the transactions go through right away. But in reality for the consumer and business it takes many days, and sometimes months for the business to get the money from the credit card company. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jorneyflair on April 11, 2017, 09:03:36 AM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Ya it is true that due to confirmation delay bitcoin is getting some negative points when dealing with merchant transaction as if the buyer sends the bitcoins with low fees, then the transaction takes more then 24 hrs time and their are chances of the transaction getting cancelled also, So still their is lot of time for bitcoin to get accepted by merchants. Right now it is good for investment and gambling type uses only. I also would like to remind you, that task of sending money takes around 1-2 days at banking system: bitcoin is much faster. Im afraid that confirmations will still take some time, because you need to remember the current amount of blockchain users- and imagine even more people, because we can see that our bitcoin community is constantly growing, we have newbies here all the time. So 50 minutes isn't so much for confirmations, however i need to agree that it sucks when someone pays at the shop. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Supercrypt on April 11, 2017, 12:17:51 PM It's not that bad Bitcoin transactions are tolerable for people who actually is not waiting for it to come. But it can be a big concern for businesses who actually is in need for that money instantly or sometging what credit cards do in which the banks gives an assurance they they will get paid for what the customers bought. Right now Bitcoin transactions is not yet into the hearts of businessmen to be part of their daily businesses. But I think the OP has a point there. I have always heard that confirmations are fast but in reality, I agree it takes a long time. With my Coinbase account I have done more than three transactions where it took over an hour to get more than 2 confirmations. But it is not a matter of not having the money right a way but more about fraud because without confirmations the transaction basically did not occur. There is potential for fraud.Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Dart18 on April 11, 2017, 12:20:01 PM Yes and it is getting nasty paying way too much. Thought I could at least save money in using it but there is the problem of paying expensively and waiting for too long. Western Union will win against bitcoin if this continues.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: FlamingFingers on April 11, 2017, 12:31:31 PM Yes and it is getting nasty paying way too much. Thought I could at least save money in using it but there is the problem of paying expensively and waiting for too long. Western Union will win against bitcoin if this continues. What you have said above is true, bitcoin can be annoying depending on the circumstances. But Western Union is not that good either – it charges more for the transactions, especially if you are the sender; they have a disclaimer that makes the company liable if the recipient fails to get the goods or get them in bad shape; it's also a very good way for scammers to get funded since an identification card and a custom transaction is all that's necessary for one to claim money.Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: sweeeter on April 11, 2017, 12:35:46 PM I will always love Bitcoin regardless of transaction times. We will all learn that Bitcoin is not an everyday currency but is prefect for saving.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: buharikx31 on April 11, 2017, 12:48:15 PM Indeed, the idea of bitcoin not made for fast transactions, they are fast but you should wait for confirmation and somebody comparing with other payments, but bitcoin not made for that kind of transactions. Even digital money have other futures then cryptomoney, we should consider that bitcoin is something unique and individual then different curencies
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Casabrandy on April 11, 2017, 12:49:20 PM I will always love Bitcoin regardless of transaction times. We will all learn that Bitcoin is not an everyday currency but is prefect for saving. This the fact that we need to accept, due to its demand and adaptability of the new users ,having lots of transactions . Delays were all present. But surely the transaction will took place,it can be send as soon as it can. We just need to hope for new developments improving the transaction time of bitcoin. Other than its failure in delivering what we want on time,everything else about bitcoin were all working smooth and fine. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Xester on April 11, 2017, 12:55:53 PM I will always love Bitcoin regardless of transaction times. We will all learn that Bitcoin is not an everyday currency but is prefect for saving. This the fact that we need to accept, due to its demand and adaptability of the new users ,having lots of transactions . Delays were all present. But surely the transaction will took place,it can be send as soon as it can. We just need to hope for new developments improving the transaction time of bitcoin. Other than its failure in delivering what we want on time,everything else about bitcoin were all working smooth and fine. There are already solutions being made to that issue but there are just conditions before we can use bitcoins in local shops. First is that the owner of the shop and the client must use one site that host web wallets, for example they will both use blockchain.info wallets then the transfer will be done just in seconds. Another thing we can use the local exchangers app in a certain area so that the transaction will be instant and there is nothing to wait. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Script3d on April 11, 2017, 12:59:49 PM This is true, no matter how much we used bitcoin everyday the problem is too long to confirmed the transactions. Ive been experiencing this kind of problem but I know it will solved in the long run. yes it is very true we all can experience this problem but you can still avoid it by putting high transaction fees on your payment which can be done in 1 new block and there are some other transaction that needs few more blocks to get 1 confirmationTitle: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jc89 on April 11, 2017, 01:01:41 PM If crypto can not make transaction faster than credit card then eventually fail. also should consider usability of wallet. we need at least mobile wallet fast and secure without scam. You know , now we are struggling with slower transaction confirmation due to massive transaction every now and then it just means that we are now populating :) to compare to cards around you know cards is one tap to machines can easily get money or fiat. I guess we should stop comparing it since it has different features. Well that is the reason why people continue to compare them, because they are different. This is unavoidable since the other one have advantages over the other and the other way around. The best thing to do now is to combine the advantages of bitcoin and the credit card. The slow transaction confirmation is impractical to some businesses so this should be prioritized for its further improvement. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Dimelord on April 11, 2017, 01:04:55 PM Yes,i too love Bitcoin.But when the need for transaction comes,im totally upset.I sent some btc from my wallet to localbitcoins to cash out and i set transaction fee manually to 0.0009 btc with a hope of quick confirmation.But it took nearly 24 hours for my transaction to be confirmed.If this continues,it would be a big drawback in bitcoin progress.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: DoublerHunter on April 11, 2017, 02:13:27 PM Our love can't deal with the confirmation time of our transactions because there is nothing we can found in our love to help confirmations to be faster. The only thing we can do to make confirmations faster is to unite and help the team to solve this problem by generating an idea on how to solve this problem and just tell the team or any staff here and give your suggestion to them, i think it is better than just loving bitcoin because a love with action is always the best.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Heyo:P on April 12, 2017, 04:44:04 PM Perhaps when Litecoin gets Segwit then it will be easier to get Segwit passed in bitcoin and the transactions will speed up.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: severaldetails on April 12, 2017, 04:55:04 PM During the last few months I have not bought anything using bitcoin.
So I would like to ask, how long does a transaction take you guys here when you put let's say 50k satoshis fee on it? When I look at the size of the mem pool it's not as bad at the moment as it was some time ago. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: iamTom123 on April 12, 2017, 04:56:58 PM Perhaps when Litecoin gets Segwit then it will be easier to get Segwit passed in bitcoin and the transactions will speed up. Yes, this can indeed help so that maybe those who are doubting SegWit will finally adopt SegWit and we can then move on. However, whether we do SegWit or BitcoinUnlimited, there would always be challenges that Bitcoin will encounter into the future. What we should be doing is to have a united stand as to the direction of Bitcoin unlike what is happening right now in the Bitcoin community. Bitcoin users are waiting for the adequate solution to the problem of transactions delay. Bitcoin should be fast and right now it is not living up to its name. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jorneyflair on April 12, 2017, 05:02:12 PM During the last few months I have not bought anything using bitcoin. Yes, I have to agree with you and im also not buying anything through bitcoin payment system.So I would like to ask, how long does a transaction take you guys here when you put let's say 50k satoshis fee on it? When I look at the size of the mem pool it's not as bad at the moment as it was some time ago. I have totally reduced the amount of transactions in blockchain, so I dont have to pay a fee. If I transfer the money from website to website, that also hurts me, because im waiting about an hour for 3 confirmations, plus I have to pay ~50k satoshi. Another way to deal with that problem is to collect bitcoins in to the bigger packages, and send them less often. To sum up, there are ways to deal with big fees and long cofirmations because you can set up 100k fee, so it is not such a big problem for this payment system. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Turk Ace on April 12, 2017, 08:05:14 PM This is 2 years old thread and they were complaint then. It's even worse now. I put 0.0025 as fee normally and it takes a few hours I'm ok with that. Sometimes an hour. It is not bad. Just strange it's getting worse and worse.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: xuan87 on April 13, 2017, 01:08:41 AM I am agree, the transaction time is getting worse and worse and it had become quite a problem, if this is not fixed, shops won't be able to adapt bitcoin payment, we still waiting for the developer to find solution so we can implemented bitcoin in more sector
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jeraldskie11 on April 13, 2017, 02:06:05 AM Nowadays, the confirmation now on btc that we had transact is getting worse, it takes much time get confirmed. Unlike the past months, it is very fast transaction and no hassle. We love btc because it make people change their lives so it doesn't matter for me how long the transaction takes.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: chickenado on April 13, 2017, 02:19:43 AM If you love bitcoin no matter how long it takes, you will wait until it confirmed. Like in love, if you love someone you need to wait for it. I'm using bitcoin almost years, and I experienced that problem too, but If you can't wait you can change your coin to another coin so that you don't need to wait.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ufaiz50 on April 13, 2017, 03:11:00 AM I did not make a problem out of transaction confirmation because I've never experienced that problem I could just hope the problem quickly resolved. if you really love bitcoin you will receive his weaknesses.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Gens09 on April 13, 2017, 03:18:16 AM Ways depend in what you use but maybe it just take time converting your money or transacting your money in your address..,
ATM really a scam on fees it will kill you in super high transaction fee and in there exchange rate also.., But you can find a wallet which a liitle bit fast than 1hour maybe a 30 minutes transaction it will be better but it really take time confirming the transactions it's process a lot inside.. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: ASHLIUSZ on April 13, 2017, 03:19:26 AM I did not make a problem out of transaction confirmation because I've never experienced that problem I could just hope the problem quickly resolved. if you really love bitcoin you will receive his weaknesses. Well said. If you think it an major issue then you'll be addressed, else you won't consider this as a big issue. At times the network receive a large number of transactions and on a sudden at times it gets stuck on the network. As quoted confirmation is effective when you go with the auto fee as well it's not a drawback for the one who really loves it.Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: emezh10 on April 13, 2017, 03:32:19 AM I think bitcoin delay of transaction is normal because the bitcoin is known worldwide so every seconds there are million of transaction that is happening so no need to worry 30mins to 1hr is not a big deal, So the delay of transaction is good because it's the signal that many people are getting to know the bitcoin.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: abel1337 on April 13, 2017, 03:34:29 AM If the confirmation is too long for a day , I am using other coins such as ethereum or doge on transfering it to gambling sites cause sometimes it is has more fast confirmation. Instead of bitcoin I used altcoins to play games becasude some of the gambling sites offer altcoin as a bet kn there sites. We can manipulate the transaction confirmation to fasten up by putting a hugh amount of transaction fee which of us is lesser to make because many of us transacting to make a profit on their btc.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: KesoNie on April 13, 2017, 03:39:01 AM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Yes it happens nowadays transaction fee getting higher and the transaction time getting longer. Hopefully it will be change and may the odds be ever in our favor. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: DoublerHunter on April 13, 2017, 07:37:27 AM Not an original topic, but there is a reason why it keeps coming up. No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! <Insert standard response> "Transactions are instant, and full confirmation is usually done in under 1 hour... both of which are better than credit cards." <Reality check> Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world.... better point of sale options are needed ASAP. Yes it happens nowadays transaction fee getting higher and the transaction time getting longer. Hopefully it will be change and may the odds be ever in our favor. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: AngryDwarf on April 13, 2017, 07:53:51 AM It can be changed if the number of miners will be more because as of now the network can't handle too much transaction because of the increasing growth of users so we need more miners to sustain the required needs of the network. If bitcoin will have more miners then the fees will be cheaper and we don't need to worry about expensive fees. No, more miners means an increased hash rate which causes an increase in difficulty. Bitcoin adjusts its difficulty in response to processing power to keep the block generation time at the 10 minute average target. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: bitkilo on April 13, 2017, 09:12:52 AM It can be changed if the number of miners will be more because as of now the network can't handle too much transaction because of the increasing growth of users so we need more miners to sustain the required needs of the network. If bitcoin will have more miners then the fees will be cheaper and we don't need to worry about expensive fees. No, more miners means an increased hash rate which causes an increase in difficulty. Bitcoin adjusts its difficulty in response to processing power to keep the block generation time at the 10 minute average target. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: milewilda on April 13, 2017, 09:18:48 AM It can be changed if the number of miners will be more because as of now the network can't handle too much transaction because of the increasing growth of users so we need more miners to sustain the required needs of the network. If bitcoin will have more miners then the fees will be cheaper and we don't need to worry about expensive fees. No, more miners means an increased hash rate which causes an increase in difficulty. Bitcoin adjusts its difficulty in response to processing power to keep the block generation time at the 10 minute average target. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Inkdatar on April 26, 2017, 08:48:26 AM I always will understand this situation, BTC really take way tok long to confirm transactions. Even me it took 2 days tk confirm the transactions and others still experiencing this kind of problem. Hoping this will resolved immediately.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: the rise on April 26, 2017, 12:08:07 PM I always will understand this situation, BTC really take way tok long to confirm transactions. Even me it took 2 days tk confirm the transactions and others still experiencing this kind of problem. Hoping this will resolved immediately. Will not be resolved if mempool flooded the transaction level at one time, because the use for each blocksize is only 1 mb, I myself am waiting for what step to do now, but this is a very classic problem where we continue to want the addition of community volume from all nations, but on the other side of the transactions that can flood the mempool at any time because the accumulation of transactions can't be avoided. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: RodeoX on April 26, 2017, 05:53:15 PM Compared to what? Bitcoin is the fastest payment network there is. ::)
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: duckydonald on April 26, 2017, 07:18:50 PM Its frustrating to wait longer for confirmation when you need money on emergency basis as even after adding higher fees you need to wait for a long time to get bitcoins in your wallet but I am really ok with that as bitcoin is offering me some best benefits which is never possible with fiat.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jovs on April 29, 2017, 01:47:09 PM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations. The Bitcoin confirmation time is about protecting from double spends. So 1 confirmation means it's unlikely the transaction could be reversed as in you would need a hell of a lot of mining power. 6 confirmations and you're transaction is pretty solid. So a merchant would generally only wait for confirmations for large transactions. For small transactions it is enough to detect the transaction is in the network, i.e. more or less instant. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: naughty1 on April 29, 2017, 01:51:35 PM Its frustrating to wait longer for confirmation when you need money on emergency basis as even after adding higher fees you need to wait for a long time to get bitcoins in your wallet but I am really ok with that as bitcoin is offering me some best benefits which is never possible with fiat. If you really love bitcoin, the time of confirmation is not a worrying issue, we have all the measures to resolve it. And of course, transaction fees are not a problem, we have systems that support bitcoin transaction processing, however, the amount is always limited, only 100 transactions are supported per hour. Today, I will give you a place that supports our transaction. Https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/ Remember, only the first 100 deals are processed per hour. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: mad3 on May 10, 2017, 12:15:46 PM Maybe what we need is a company like Visa or MC to supply a service where we deposit bitcoin and they issue the charge as fiat there wouldn't be any conformation time because the confirms would already have happened when you made the deposit.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: jaked on May 10, 2017, 12:25:54 PM BTC should stop justify its current state by comparing itself to the worse.
It should do better than the best, not the worse! Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Sundark on May 10, 2017, 12:31:36 PM Maybe what we need is a company like Visa or MC to supply a service where we deposit bitcoin and they issue the charge as fiat there wouldn't be any conformation time because the confirms would already have happened when you made the deposit. Well, you said it, there are companies like that they are called Visa and MasterCard, you want to use them? Go ahead pay with your fiat money, you have a choice.But Bitcoin was designed to be p2p network not to rely on 3rd party services for everything.The only exception I can make is when we will have SegWit + LightniningNetwork activated. I will be something like having off-chain transaction with the help of hubs communicating with each other as 1st layer of the network. This is the best viable solution I know ATM. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: daringdiscovered on May 10, 2017, 01:21:51 PM Loving the bitcoin is not enough to fasten up the transaction speed, you are not the only one who is using bitcoin, because there is a lot of transaction in the blockchain processing by the miner, and we have to wait for it, because it is going to some confirmations first before we received it or before we send it to someone. And if you do want to have faster transaction, pay higher transaction fees, so you could have the right to shout it out that it is way too long to be confirmed even though you paid high transaction fees.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Hypnosis00 on May 10, 2017, 02:29:16 PM We can't do anything about the confirmation time because it is true that it's taking a lot of time before it gets confirmation, the only thing that we can is to adjust our fees so we can experience a faster transaction but it will cost more bitcoin but it is worth it if you are in a rush.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: soul-impact on May 10, 2017, 02:38:54 PM We can't do anything about the confirmation time because it is true that it's taking a lot of time before it gets confirmation, the only thing that we can is to adjust our fees so we can experience a faster transaction but it will cost more bitcoin but it is worth it if you are in a rush. If the cost of the transaction increases very expensive, we should use a reasonable fee, it will not significantly affect the transaction speed. In addition, we should use more supportive measures, viabtc is a concrete example. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Heyo:P on June 05, 2017, 09:30:45 PM Compared to what? Bitcoin is the fastest payment network there is. ::) I'm sorry, but just no.There are a lot of next-to-instant payment methods like Paypal and Credit Cards, and even most altcoins are faster than BTC now. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: richardsNY on June 05, 2017, 09:39:03 PM Compared to what? Bitcoin is the fastest payment network there is. ::) I'm sorry, but just no.There are a lot of next-to-instant payment methods like Paypal and Credit Cards, and even most altcoins are faster than BTC now. In terms of transactions moving from point A to B, PayPal and others might be the fastest as long as payments occur within the ecosystem of these services, but the main point of importance is the time they need to settle. In most cases Bitcoin transactions settle (i.e. confirm) usually within 20-30 minutes. PayPal and others have a settle time of more than 60 days in which people can charge back if they so wish -- that's quite a difference, isn't it? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: HaXX0R1337 on June 05, 2017, 10:04:03 PM I always will understand this situation, BTC really take way tok long to confirm transactions. Even me it took 2 days tk confirm the transactions and others still experiencing this kind of problem. Hoping this will resolved immediately. Do not really expect this to be resolved that easily,we need to have an upgrade in our networks to accommodate more users and with new users coming into bitcoin these things can be resolved only through an upgrade and when it is done then these issues will be gone but it is really hard to tell when these things will be solved as there are more things playing behind the scene .Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: btccashacc on June 05, 2017, 10:28:02 PM Compared to what? Bitcoin is the fastest payment network there is. ::) I'm sorry, but just no.There are a lot of next-to-instant payment methods like Paypal and Credit Cards, and even most altcoins are faster than BTC now. In terms of transactions moving from point A to B, PayPal and others might be the fastest as long as payments occur within the ecosystem of these services, but the main point of importance is the time they need to settle. In most cases Bitcoin transactions settle (i.e. confirm) usually within 20-30 minutes. PayPal and others have a settle time of more than 60 days in which people can charge back if they so wish -- that's quite a difference, isn't it? Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: kelseydustin on June 05, 2017, 10:46:03 PM Compared to what? Bitcoin is the fastest payment network there is. ::) I'm sorry, but just no.There are a lot of next-to-instant payment methods like Paypal and Credit Cards, and even most altcoins are faster than BTC now. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: shinratensei_ on June 05, 2017, 10:48:12 PM We can't do anything about the confirmation time because it is true that it's taking a lot of time before it gets confirmation, the only thing that we can is to adjust our fees so we can experience a faster transaction but it will cost more bitcoin but it is worth it if you are in a rush. Your fee will be determining the priority of your transaction. If you have a high fee and the transaction gets high priority to get signed on the 1 - 10 blocks. And it will take up to 0 - 30 minutes. The accelerator will push your priority transaction to the early block. And you will able to get fast confirmation rather not use the accelerator. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Sarah08 on June 05, 2017, 10:59:41 PM When im doing a transaction last month in already taking months to cconfirm so i guess it is really hopeless for the bitcoin because of so many users and the transactions are getting stock in the blockchain but today i guess its already came back almost all of my transactions just takes less than 12 hours so not bad at all.
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Bit_Happy on June 06, 2017, 02:33:14 AM « Not completely serious »
This topic was started almost 3 years ago. As the subject gets more obvious and important, I've been ignoring the thread & have not posted for almost 3 whole years. Can't you people just accept it and move on!!! :D </ Not completely serious > Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: niisarearning on June 06, 2017, 07:45:58 AM Exactly i completely agree with that bitcoin transaction for lower amount and lower transaction fees are taking way too long and also it goes unconfirmed transaction or pending for more than week some times it get cancel also . Its breaking bitcoin original purpose
Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: Heyo:P on June 08, 2017, 01:01:35 AM As the subject gets more obvious and important, I've been ignoring the thread & have not posted for almost 3 whole years. This topic may have been created 3 years ago but it's more relevant now than it ever was. Besides if you don't want people posting here why don't you lock the thread? Can't you people just accept it and move on!!! :D Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: TryNinja on June 08, 2017, 01:21:18 AM If you really love bitcoin, the time of confirmation is not a worrying issue, we have all the measures to resolve it. And of course, transaction fees are not a problem, we have systems that support bitcoin transaction processing, however, the amount is always limited, only 100 transactions are supported per hour. Today, I will give you a place that supports our transaction. Https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/ Remember, only the first 100 deals are processed per hour. This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. How are fees not a problem? Do you think Bitcoin was created for the purpose of charging $5 in fees per transactionss and thus making it impossible to be used for micro-transactions? The ViaBTC transaction accelerator is just one way to try to mitigate the problem we are experiencing at the moment. It is an option that we should never need and that can not be used as a solution, mainly because they only allow the acceleration of 100 transactions per hour. Meanwhile we have + 100k unconfirmed transactions every day. Title: Re: No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long! Post by: DOGE12321 on June 08, 2017, 03:51:00 AM It IS relevant when you have only 2 blocks created in 40 minutes (like right now) and a merchant that requires at least 3 or 4 confirmations. A payment processor will cover this. You send the money through them and all is good. |
