Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”

Around the same time that Chris Odom, the creator of Open Transactions, was dismissing the relevance of altcoins at InsideBitcoins London, Bitcoin core developer Jeff Garzik was tied up in a public spat with the NXT community. As someone who has been suspicious of projects that create their own cryptocoins for quite some time, I’m happy to see this public debate on the legitimacy of appcoins

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-developer-jeff-garzik-believes-nxt-is-a-scamcoin/

Any "coin" that is not mined through a cryptographic algorithm is a scam. NXT, Ripple, and several others are not cryptocurrencies and should never, ever be compared to bitcoin. These non-crypto-coins have the exact same problems as our current financial system and will do absolutely nothing of value towards ending economic slavery around the world.

tl;dr If it isn't a mine-able crypto, then it isn't good

Because it is a scamcoin..

I think any coin except bitcoin can be considered a "scam coin" because they are all copied from it.

I don't consider PoS altcoins as scamcoins, I consider them to be fiat. As such they are useful currencies for strong states that can back them with powerful standing armies and weapons of mass destruction.

Thankfully, coinmarketcap lets you filter out those "coins".

Bitcoin consumes a lot energy to be generated. To save energy, POS, Nxt currencies are coming out. The cryptocurrency is evolving. Which will be winner is not known yet.

That's like saying we have poison coming out so you don't need to bother eating anymore.

any non mineble currency is like fiat , it can be inflated forever and thats the problem.

Tulip mania!  NXT isn't backed by anything, not even mining cartels!

Lots of misinformation here.  NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

NXT is a platform for decentralized services that is powered by NXT tokens.  Comparing NXT to Bitcoin as a "currency" doesn't really make any sense.  NXT and Bitcoin can function as complimentary systems (they already do) as NXT was designed from the ground-up to process a variety of transaction types that are not suitable for the Bitcoin blockchain.  I like NXT because I like being involved in projects with promising technology and contributing effort to help them grow - the same reasons I got into Bitcoin.  If a fatal flaw is discovered in the NXT PoS mechanism it will probably fail, but we won't know with any certainty unless we try.  Nobody is forcing anyone else to use NXT and it's certainly not a "scam".




If you want to "mine" NXT, you can use a pool like http://hashrate.org.  It mines other alt-coins and automatically sells them to buy NXT that it pays out to miners.   :)

You don't seem to understand the concept of value. Something is more valuable if people are willing to do more work for it. Gold is scarce, sure, but so are many other precious metals. So why is gold more expensive? Because people are willing to do a lot of work (POW) in order to get it.

Bitcoin = real value generated by people willing to work for it
Scamcoins (NxT, Ripple) = fake value declared as such by a central authority figure

Bitcoin is lightyears ahead of NxT and Ripple, even in its original form.

Since some people seem to not have read the article, these are jgarzik's points of criticism towards NXT:
These apply mostly to only NXT, the only universal issue with non-mined coins is the distribution problem (aka. "How do you hand out something fairly to a lot of people without including an element of trust or by fixing prices?"). Bitcoin also has a distribution problem (only miners can get coins, everybody else can only buy them), it is considered a superior solution to any other so far around here though (well, it's BITCOINtalk after all).

Fixing prices would do absolutely nothing to help with distributing coins fairly because the process by which the price is fixed has to involve trust. When the market is free and prices are determined only by consensus of demand, then you have a fair distribution system.

Please explain how fixed prices would solve any of the issues involved in distribution.

This is by far the worst reason to back a coin. Saves energy? How about the energy saved comparing Bitcoin to the legacy financial system it will replace? I don't buy for a minute that these coins are created as some kind of "Green" initiative. They're parasitic and tertiary, and the fact that they can't even muster enough people to support a conventional mining network tells me quite a bit about their worth.

Don't tell me, you think that hashing is "wasted" cycles too, because you don't understand how the blockchain works.

Similar to Ethereum's approach it could be possible to simply assume something else outside of your currency to be well distributed (Bitcoin assumes "mining power" to be well distributed, Ethereum assumes Bitcoins to be well distributed) and then fix prices against this well distributed thing until you have either used up your currency or used up the external thing (e.g. all BTC in existence are used to buy Ether).

The basic idea is "if there is something out there that is already well distributed, provide a way to convert this thing into your currency over time". You can make markets (Ethereum), automate it (PoW coins), give it away (Stellar's approach was to assume facebook accounts are well distributed) and I'm sure there are many other distribution ideas out there.

Involving trust and fairness is not mutually exclusive.

From https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf page 4
Hashing is simply making sure as much electricity is expended as you claim. If this is a "waste" or not, is debatable. It however does mostly serve to distribute BTC units; to solve double spend issues solutions like PoS are also possible.

Reading this amount of fallacies and ignorance coming from legendary members of this forum is almost making me cry...

They aren't better than the reasoning from Garzik:

"Hashes don't match? it is a SCAMCOIN!"

It is good to see people criticize offshoots of Bitcoin, just like people who criticized Bitcoin itself when it was new to the scene. No other coin has survived the same stress test that Bitcoin has so far, which is why we see so many fervent supporters.

but now I see Bitcoiners who are in the same place as the Bitcoin naysayers were, that of "it isn't going to work. sure, fiat has its problems, but it gets the job done".

"it isn't going to work. sure, Bitcoin has its problems, but it gets the job done"

it seems short sighted to believe that Bitcoin is the best crypto, which is the view that a fair amount of people propagate. this isn't logical to me - bitcoin is the first attempt at using Bitcoin protocol for purposes of currency. obviously all cryptos that proceed the bitcoin currency aim to fix its flaws. I would wager that there is already a more powerful coin out there, but it will remain undiscovered until a majority of Bitcoiners detach themselves from the fatal ideology that is "Bitcoin is the best"

people are more interested in protecting their investments than in supporting a better technology, that is really what this all comes down to

This is your supporting evidence.

This is your hypothesis. It's a non-sequitur.

Well said visual.. These types of threads only reassure me that 2.0 platforms are a very real serious threat to bitcoin.. How many scams have their been around the alt section? And how many threads made by hero members and also mainly populated by hero/legendary members spreading fud has there been? It's embarrassing to see once reputable bitcoiners lower themselves to scrapping the barrel for what ever FUD they can come up with!

You can call them 2.0 platforms, but you can't call them Bitcoin 2.0 platforms because you are not using the Bitcoin blockchain. Again, this is a Bitcoin forum. Why are you even here?

did I call it bitcoin 2.0?

Because nxt is a 2.0 platform. It is the second generation of blockchain technology.

If this is a bitcoin forum why are people discussing coins other than bitcoin here? Should you all not be busy discussing bitcoin instead of propagating fud about other coins?

You guys may be interested to check out the NXT whitepaper (still in draft mode):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cbuwrorf672c0yy/NxtWhitepaper_v122_rev4.pdf

And NXT Technology tree website:
http://www.nxttechnologytree.com/

No point to argue I guess, to each their own.

I see a trend that people argue that every coin which cannot be mined is a scam coin. Wake up guys! With mineable coins you give your money to big companies like KNC, decentralized home-mining with PCs and GPUs was a good idea but it's a thing of the past! I'd rather invest in a coin which is not mined and has a low energy profile, even if that means that I have to buy it from "stakeholders". They are guys like us so we keep the money "in the family" and don't give it to big hardware vendors (and paying our power bills - ouch!).

If you dare and dig deeper into Nxt, you will learn that "Nxt - the network" is built upon hard development work sponsored by the original stakeholders. Because these guys didn't sit on their coins but put out bounties for development achievements now we have some great features like aliases, asset exchange, encrypted messaging, digital goods store to name just a few.

I'm embarrassed for Jeff when reading his posts.  I'm also a little perplexed as to why a BTC core dev would spend so much time talking about what he calls a "scam" coin.  Is he trying to save the masses from bad crypto investments, or maybe he needs to kill time while waiting for his Rogaine to dry.  I'm thinking about writing an article that puts the recent BTC free-fall fully on Jeff's shoulders.  Anyway, do your own research, make your own decisions, after all, I can point you to a thousand financial experts today that will say BTC is a scam.

I´m new to this whole thing and can´t tell, if the claims about flaws in the PoS algorithm are true, but noone provides any convinving arguments, why there should be any. And the old Bitcoiners sure discuss like angry former authorities, not willing to pass the cepter.

Just from how it sounds. Like "what are you even doing here? It´s a bitcoin forum"...

Maybe I should consider buying some nxt :)

thank you for this post.. makes the battle all worth while! :)

it would certainly be wise to check it out (http://www.nxtforum.org) ;)

You should! Try the platform with a small amount of NXT! :) Some fun things to do are:
- buy some NXT with BTC using the peer-to-peer exchange www.multigateway.com (beta)
- experiment with trading some assets (from within the client itself or using www.secureae.com)
- buy some mp3s from the decentralized marketplace, it's in the client (music from www.sinanboom.com sounds quite good!)

Doing these things gives you an idea of the many possibilities  8)

And finally, read up on the SuperNET idea if you want http://www.coinssource.com/supernets-coin-offering-raises-over-2000-bitcoins-hours/  ;D

Buying NXT... Sounds like a good plan!  :D

Even senior members are ignorant enough to believe that having a central authority controlling the amount of money is okay. They'll change their tune quickly once they realize that NxT is just like having a Central Bank that can print whenever it wants. The same thing goes with Ripple.

Dollars don't use any electricity. Why don't we just stick with dollars? Oh wait...

Did you ever read a single line of text about NXT? "Print whaever it wants"? WTf!!!   ???

The amount of nxts in the NXT platform is FIXED and it is 1,000,000,000 (actually it is less coz some of them were burnt).

Guess who controls all of those coins? NxT is effectively a huge pile of printed coins that they invented from thin air without anything to prove their value. They can choose to distribute/issue this huge pile of coins at any time for any reason and to anybody, which has the exact same effect as if they printed them at the time of use. The only difference between them and a central bank is that all of the NxT scamcoins are printed in advance, all at once. There is no functional difference at all between the two.

I laid a trap and you walked right into it. If you keep going on about the nuance in definitions between "printed at time of misuse" and "printed in advance for future misuse" then you are just playing word games. Just like central banks, NxT is about financial slavery.

oh Jeff garzick would like this one.. The fud is strong in this one :D

Jeff Garzik is the Rush Limbaugh of cryptocurrency: all bloat, no heart.

So do what you do when you normally encounter a Rush Limbaugh opinion, and you'll be fine.

Please keep on lobbing insults and presenting no argument. NxT is 100% pre-mined, just like Ripple.

Please don't feed the trolls. This forum is being inundated with corporate shills. Please report off topic posts. These discussions don't belong in Press.

Who are you talking about?
Which are those "off-topic" posts? Those saying Jeff is wrong with his "NXT is scamcoin because when compiling binaries hashes don't match!"? (Oh! Wait! Jeff is the moderator of this board!  :D )
Or those saying NXT is a scamcoin because "they control it like a central bank blablabla..."? (BTW, CoinMode, who are they? Come-from-beyond? Klee? Jean-Luc? Aysyr?)

NXT a Scamcoin? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag)

 
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/040/447/Haters_gonna_hate.jpg

Just a regular update about the news discussed here:

1) https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514391853743882241
 (https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514391853743882241)

2) https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514392176797560832 (https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/514392176797560832)



Another day in cryptoworld.  :D

looool
do you really think some one is stupid enough to believe u?
you are on bitcoin forum not kindergarten :D

or
you are trying to promote NXT with obvious FUD. I dont think it is good strategy (see monero)

but this is too obvious bullshit
so maybe you are trying to hurt NXT by writing obvious FUD as if you were promoting it, thus making "monero effect"

or you are simply stupid and ignorant about facts

Thank you for lobbing more insults my way. It really makes NxT look like crap when people like you "defend" it.


Nothing you said changes the fact that they (the developers of NxT) are essentially sitting on a pile of a billion coins which they (the developers) can give or sell to anybody they want, whenever they want, for whatever reason they want. Guess who has control over the 21million bitcoins that will eventually exist. Go ahead and guess. We'll be waiting for your response.

Trustless Cryptocurrency > Trust-Required Scamcoin

Do you even understand this basic concept?

No, i dont understand your basic concept. Tell me again why i should not trust the 'developers', and tell me why, with verifiable facts. Cheers

the ever smaller and smaller group of miners who can afford to stay in the mining game.

so the argument against nxt essentially comes down to you thinking the developers own all the nxt?

could a handful of developers make a total of 29'704 asset exchange trades?

this number is starting to go exponential too.

https://i.imgur.com/iSqB8ah.jpg

to say the devs hold all the nxt is just picking at straws. just like every other argument made so far.

The NxT developers are human beings.

The Bitcoin algorithm is a mathematical formula.

One of them requires trust, and the other requires no trust.

Do I have to explain the concept of greed and human error, or do you understand the problem with NxT and Ripple?

As for trading volume, that chart is ridiculously misleading. You can see for yourself at coinmarketcap.com

Where the hell did all of these NxT shills come from all of a sudden?

So far the developer has done right by us.

Two plus two always equals four. People do not always take the correct course of action. I suggest you look into this matter before buying into obvious scamcoins.

All i am seeing, is another person/s uncomfortable with the concept of POS, who thinks the Bitcoin algo is the only gig in town.

Please try harder. 

Yes you're right.

Thanks for your warnings.

Have a good day sir.

Where did you come from, you just joined crypo in Feb, so please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Nxt had developers, just like BTC has developers, the only difference is that Nxt is still developing new features, unlike BTC, so development is in an active state, but the latest client as it stands is trustless and works without intervention, Nxt is nothing like Ripple.  Ripple is a corporation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag

NXT fan addresses Garzik's points one by one. Its good I'm told (gonna watch it right now).

Oh, and if you insist on taking Garzik's opinion on non-bitcoin related things seriously, I invite you to read some of his Twitter feed. The dude is pretty much the Rush Limbaugh of cryptocurrency.

Despite good intentions , humans can NOT be trusted , they simpley lack control over its own primal emotions.
they simply cant , so its no option to keep humans in a trust position.
this makes NXT no diffrent then the dollar.
and bitcoin diffrent.
Bitcoin does not need trust.

how does nxt put trust in people? ???

Not sure of NXT myself but it is an interesting coin that gets mentioned a lot
Guess I'll let time and investors decide the fate of that one.

It's not just NXT, in fact, all the so-call 2nd gen coin looks like scamcoin

ok.. tell me how nem is a scam then?

The initial IPO had ten people with 50% of the stake. There is no way to prove that those ten people weren't in fact one person, nor that one person has not acquired more than 50% already. They can then hold their position forever. It's like a priesthood. You must have faith that your authority figures will be honest. NXT's version of PoS allocates the block generation by active stake. Someone with a majority of active stake has the option to attack the network surreptitiously. I doubt they would overtly attack the network because it would devalue the currency, but they would always have plausible deniability if they sporadically attack.

I can't prove that this has happened and nobody can prove that it didn't already or won't happen. You just have to trust people that they won't be greedy enough to try this.

exactly you cant prove anything.. LOL

if you held 50% or 15m+ dollars of a currency, would you screw up the network and cause the value of your holdings to plummet?

what i really love about your arguments, is even if they are totally valid arguments, your going to have a hard time putting the same fight with even remotely similar arguments against nem which i have no doubt in a few weeks you will try, and then fail lol perhaps you should read up on NEM for a bit and prepare your fud in advance ;)

That's why I don't even need to bother reading about NEM. There will always be another PoS. PoS doesn't need an expensive infrastructure, just a marketing gimmick. You say I have valid arguments, yet still call it FUD. Interesting. In fact, I am excited about the possibility of PoS, it's just that none of them are any good yet.

you are right in saying nxt distribution is not very good, but you push it too far, and then it becomes fud.

ok now we are making progress(bolded part)

this is why i brought up nem.. its not PoS. its PoI. proof of importance. in nem your level of importance to the network is what decides your "forging power". it is partly based on how many coins you have but mostly how important you are to the network ie. if you distribute your coins via tx fees or any other transactions to other nodes with high importance then you gain importance. i you hoard, it drops(not by much but enough to deter hoarding). its not about how many transactions you do, but with whom you do transactions. if you make a transaction with a very high fee, your importance will rise a little i think even though the number of coins you have has gone down. people have been trying to break PoI for months with out any luck.

this gives even small holders the opportunity to have a high importance regardless of their lack of coins. it will help increase the already large network effect created by 3000 original stake holders who got 1 million each, the vast majority being unique users/veteran accounts. distribution is pretty much the opposite of nxt. the largest stake holder in nem isnt even 1%. it will have all the features that nxt has and probably more. remote forging(forge with coins in cold storage) is a planned feature for beta (currently in alpha) as well as time synchronization between nodes(security feature). multisig could possibly be a feature ready for beta too but im not sure on that one. also it doesnt use brain wallets. it uses a local wallet but i think it could be a little different than regular bitcoin like local wallets. but for the most part i think its the same thing.

Your importance is based on a high amount coins you have plus how many transaction fees you send to others with a high amount of coins. It sounds like you can build your own importance by sending coins and fees to yourself.

All these altcoins are fun to discuss. These are games without frontiers. People dress them up in silly costumes and shout from the treetops. People claiming they have invented something new under the sun. It is hilarious.  All Bitcoin did was solve the Byzantine General's problem using a blockchain. Bitcoin uses Proof of Work because work is competitive. It's not perfect, but who in their right mind can expect to make something perfect?

If certain amount of money can buy certain amount of goods/services, then they should all be produced by equal amount of work, this is the principle for honest money

There is no thing as "honest money" in this world.

Hmm.. True.. I wanted to disagree with you but I can't.

I personally like NXT and I think it has potential. Some of its original innovations were pretty spot on and widely copied.

So long as the NXT team can continue to deliver I think the only thing stopping them from succeeding is being able to reach a more widestream audience.. A marketing audience should include new arenas of potential users instead of the same business- and crypto-oriented BTC, which now has countless decentralization, blockchain-based platforms to choose from..

My one gripe with the distribution and POS is that it encourages hoarding, which doesn't really make sense for a coin that should still be trying to distribute itself as widely as possible... if only to fight the relentless criticism.

Yes there is, and it is called gold. It hasn't been used as a currency in a long time, but gold is literally a form of money, as is bitcoin. They are also both perfectly honest forms of money, in that no central authority is allowed to dictate their value or supply. With that said, NxT does not fall into the category of honest money due to a central pool of investors who have complete control over it.

*woof woof*
What's that you say little shibe?
*woof woof woof*
The scamcoin known as NxT just got passed by DOGE?
*woof*
Wow! Thanks for letting us know and pointing out the NxT is losing to a jokecoin. Good girl...have a biscuit.
*nom nom nom*

source: chart below

https://i.imgur.com/7qKXZE3.jpg

Not lately though. Stakeholders are starting to chip in their coins to buy IPO shares on the asset exchange, that's an important part of the distribution process. I don't think it's valid to expect a very good distribution after only 10 months of running. Bitcoin has run for 5+ years and its distribution is far from good and there is no reason to expect it will get any better.

so many retards here in the world :(

I am sick of reading someone calling NXT "pre-mined", when it can't be mined in the first place :) oh, and you're right, they are not coins, they are so much more, depends on which function of theirs you imply.

Thank you, Captain Obvious, for pointing out that you don't actually use picks and shovels for releasing tokens and verifying transactions.

NXT is not, and never was a 'coin'. Tis a fine example how lazy and ignorant peeps like Coinmode and Garzik really are.

According to NXTCRYPTO.org it is a cryptocurrency. The term 'coin' is easier. FYI.

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.

Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.

LMAO


Dude, don't talk about things you don't know.

no cheating the system like that doesn't work.. Loads have tried and failed. And it not how many you do nor the size but who you do txs with. Il post the white paper when it's released

Put it in your sig :)

If this is what we are now discussing......the argument that NXT is a 'scamcoin' has been conclusively lost.

Out.

I'm sure it will be "The Perfect Game." It will be interesting to see how you apply game theory. The world's casinos are waiting with bated breath.

It's fun to watch the moving goalposts. The game hasn't changed, but there's no point in playing our first string anymore. It's fun watching NXT defenders run around scrambling for new obfuscations.

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

The problem is that people use words that have different/opposite definitions.

In the case of Nxt, if you call it a scam, define scam first.

The thing is those who call NXT a scam don't know how to discuss, because they haven't read the whitepaper. And when someone asks them to prove their point, having no technical knowledge on how things operate, they repeat 'scam, scam' or roll around the old Nothing-at-stake argument which is not even relevant for NXT implementation of PoS, as this term was coined for Peercoin's PoS, which is a completely different PoS algo. They just bunch together all different implementations of PoS and call it scam without giving it any thought, you can't even come close to discussing reasons with these people :)

Again, here are Jeff's arguments:
Except for the early stakeholders + PoS thingie, most of them are NOT towards the technology but more the developers or community.

Exactly, most of them have nothing to do with technology. If it has nothng to do with technology, then it's just a personal dislike for how things look, personal = subjective. There are thousands of users who obviously like how things look and don't have a problem with all those listed issues. It would be more natural for Jeff to argue on the basis of technical merits or faults, as he is also a software engineer.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

Just because NxT might make a few people a lot of money doesn't make it a scam.

The market will distribute it. The "scam" accusation has long been debunked - by the market no less.

It's a good coin with one of the strongest, most active and creative followings in the entire cryptocurrency economy and it ain't going away anytime soon.

All of these things are relative anyway - there isn't one single criticism that the crypto community have made of NxT that the wider world wouldn't justifiably make of crypto in general. "Centralised", "all owned by a few big holders", "overvalued"....the entire market fits this bill so everyone should just stfu and stop being so hypocritical because the mud slinging's coming to a coin near you soon.

Please, if you never heard about Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, use google.
It is quite long to explain.

Do I have to repost here this video?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag)

He answers all these question quite well in my opinion.

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

PoS.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=787100.msg8928459#msg8928459

Thanks. I just looked it up as well. PoS, so they fail:

From https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

It even mentions NXT:

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now :)
This document is irrelevant.

I doubt it: It's arguments haven't been refuted, as far as I can tell.
See also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591

I confirm that the PoS of Nxt is unique and totally different from Blackcoin which is also totally different from Peercoin.

Ergo NXT is bad, right?

The BTC community's jealousy of NXT grows more palpable by the day.

No.

Ergo I'll continue to watch from the sidelines and use my time better than watch someone whispering into a MacBook for half an hour. I don't use NXT and have my reasons why, but I don't consider it "bad" or a "scam" for that matter.

whats your reasons?

I think you are thinking about Peercoin and most other POS implementations which pay forgers via a steady inflation rate.. with Nxt the only thing powering the network is transaction fees.  Meaning that the currency is capped and there will never be another Nxt created.. though they can be destroyed.  So no, Nxt is not inflationary.

point is all nxt are pre  mined...... so centralized..... thats the problem , humans can not be trusted here , a single point of failure is not an option.

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013... ;)

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.
banks counterfit dollars everyday!

Actually no NXT are premined because they are not mined, and mining and centralization don't necessarily have a direct correlation.

You have to trust a human to write code at a certain point, right? NXT is open-source and decentralized; there is no single-point-of-failure that you speak of.. If there is you'll need to be a little bit more specific.

I'm not bumping this thread anymore. I didn't know who Jeff Garzik was before today, hopefully I'll have forgotten by tomorrow.

 
What most people fail to understand on this forum but also in society is that :

Wealth is not a giant cake where everyone has a part.
You cannot hold wealth like you hold a piece of apple-pie.

You have to understand that wealth/value only exist if there are exchanges between people.
The more trades, the more wealth.

Do not forget that a part of it is subjective :
You can call Nxt a scam and think it is worth nothing but it is only your opinion and you are wrong because people buy it.
The market always say the truth. Altcoins are worth something because people exchange them.
From those trade, wealth/value is created.

Nope, it's just one of the methods used, an old and wasteful one, leading to centralization.
There are other ways to check transactions, better ways.

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

If someone has another "consensus" technology that solves the Byzantine Generals problem using something other than PoW, then they should publish a paper. A better solution for Bitcoin would be for large mining pools to find their own checkpoints they feel would protect their blockchains. Large mining pools can form their own consensus. They can consult with whatever developers or whomever they wish. They are risking their own blockchains. There is no need for a algo that determines checkpoints or the people that do so. Bitcoin can continue to grow organically and develop until better solutions unfold that help the blockchains stay secure and reasonably efficient, while still maintaining the decentralization that solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

To me , anybody talking about bitcoin 2.0 sounds like microsoft talking about web 2.0.
There is no such thing as web 2.0.
There is only one web that 's open to improvements through RFCs and a browser upgrade.
Bitcoin is open to improvements through BIPS and a wallet upgrade.
Only banksters-scammers are anxious to make money with altcoins.
Altcoins are experimental chains (even more experimental than Bitcoin is) and should not be "marketed".
Marketing is dead or should be killed.
Long live growth hacking.
And yes, Jeff Garzik is mostly right in is assesment of altcoins.

You sound like a government trying to regulate everything.
You have no right to decide how people use their money.
This goes against the idea of Bitcoin itself.

Long live free market.

Relevant, in case no one posted it yet:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/cryptocurrency-to-cryptocurrency-ipos-are-a-completely-corrupt-deception-the-simple-technical-guide/


You want to say PoS cryptocoins do not work?

Exactly! Finally, somebody who gets it.


NxT = a single, 100% centrally-controlled company
Bitcoin = a free market


I think we all know which option is the best. Case closed.

How old are you?

edit: Nevermind. I see what you're doing. You're just bumping your own thread. Sorry you sold your BTC at the recent low but that's not NXT's fault.

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Secondly, you just accused me of being Litecoinguy and bumping my own thread.

In case you don't have the capacity to figure it out, I'll let you know that I am promoting bitcoin and every other cryptographically mineable coin and denouncing "coins", such as NxT and Ripple, as scamcoins.

It's great that you like bitcoin, if that is indeed what you mean to say, but please do brush up on your logical deduction skills before proceeding in this market. Otherwise, you are just making bitcoiners look unintelligent.

can you explain exactly how or who has been "scammed" out of money? users go to an exchange to buy nxt, they buy nxt, they get nxt, they trade it and do as they wish with it. and they get exactly what they want. at what point did someone get scammed? because all i see is users buying an asset at a price they wish to pay and doing as they wish with it and at no point has anyone been manipulated or deceived in doing so. so please.. give your definition of a scam and then apply that definition to nxt and show me your results that brought you to the conclusion that someone has been "scammed" by this "scam" called nxt?

also, watch from about 24m.. lol PoS is catching on with people that actually matter compared to FUDsters like yourself ;)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdSF19foO8E&feature=youtu.be

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized. If all of bitcoin mining was centralized in one entity, then the entire currency would effectively be centralized. That one miner could control every single thing about bitcoin. If only one group was allowed to lobby politicians about bitcoin policy, then they would control all of bitcoin. If only one marketplace in the world was allowed to exchange bitcoin, then they would control all of bitcoin.


What you have with NxT is a case where all of it is decentralized except for one component, the development process, and therefore the development team has total control. It's the same thing with the dollar. For the most part, it is pretty well decentralized. Anybody around the world can use it to exchange anything they want at any time in any market. Individual banks can determine how they use the dollar to give out loans and manage savings, for the most part. Then you have the centralized part, the Federal Reserve, which has total control over the supply of dollars in the world, and that one choke-point is all it takes to manipulate the dollar.

NxT Development Team = USD Federal Reserve

The way these two things mirror each other is that they are both the central choke-point which will guarantee that their respective currencies/commodities will not last very long. We've been talking about this over and over in this thread, but you aren't listening. You just waste time by asking about my age, which is absolutely pointless and a waste of time to discuss. Then you go on to use language such as "hence" while telling yourself that appealing to age is an intelligent part of conversation.

I know you don't get how this works, but let me lay it out for you clearly once more.

decentralized exchanges + decentralized development + decentralized lobbying + decentralized investing = 100% decentralized currency

decentralized exchanges + centralized development + decentralized lobbying + decentralized investing = 100% centralized currency

You just don't seem to be able to put all the pieces together at one time.

ok.. so you say all of nxt is totally decentralized except the development process.. can you elaborate on exactly how that is the case? please explain exactly what you mean by that line.

the way i see it is yes the dev team is anonymous, big whoop so was satoshi. the software gets released and is open source for anyone to check. aslong as the software is sound and free of any malicious code, what is the problem? you cant say it is closed to other developers because i have seen developers put forward ideas and then be allowed write the code for integration have it reviewed tested and finally integrated. i dont think this could be any more decentralized. please explain clearly what you mean by this statement because it sounds like your pulling FUD out your ass.

and please back up your claims with proof. or else it can only be taken as FUD.

Your own words prove you wrong. Check the bolded text. Whoever gets to decide who is allowed to write code is a centralized checkpoint. That is not decentralized at all, no matter who is writing the code, so long as a centralized entity (aka the NxT development team) has the final say in what does or doesn't get added.

As for the part about decentralizing mining and making it more transparent, the guys in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdSF19foO8E&t=24m36s) don't seem to understand what P2Pool means for bitcoin mining. It decentralizes mining and makes pools obsolete. Fans of PoS completely skip over this solution.

PoS = Disincentive of Use + decentralized mining
PoW + P2Pool = Incentive of Use + decentralized mining

One of those two is far better than the other.

So basically when bitcoin core gets updated by a human its decentralized but when NXT gets updated by a human its centralized. Makes no sense, yet you keep repeating it as if it did...

Oh, I just figured out what the problem is. You don't know what "centralization" means.

I'm saying they work as well as fiat currencies because they don't solve the problem with fiat currencies.

oh so i can just go and add code to the bitcoin protocol yes? oh no wait... only jeff.g and his buddies can do that... oooohhh bitcoin is centralized maaaan you better sell now. :o

you would have to be mad to allow anyone to go and add code to the nxt software.. god knows who would come along and stick in malicious code and screw everything up. dont be so stupid.

eemm.. how the hell did you come to the conclusion that PoS = disincentive of use? if anything its the opposite.

also.. you never answered my question.. il quote it again seeing as you have conveniently missed it.

Bitcoin core is updated through the scientific method of peer review. Anyone can update their own Bitcoin, but if you want something that is trustworthy, then you trust people that have presented the best work as judged by merit.

It would be good to see many more altcoins using github or some other publishing system in this way.

He's a fudder in the true sense of the term.

By a human being, correct? A human being, susceptible to subconscious bias and error.


Many, if not most, do already.

all this discussion of nxt is brilliant advertising.. i wonder is this the reason the price is rising.. :) i hope more of these threads pop up.. jeff.g and all the rest of the fudsters are doing great work. keep it up guys! ;D

Bitcoin Core gets updated through a process of consensus in which every person in the world has an equal opportunity to take part. NxT does not get updated in a decentralized manner. If a bad actor were to compile Bitcoin Core with malicious code hidden in it, then every person in the world could reject it and the bad actor. This is not possible with NxT, as the development team has the absolute final say with every single update. You just said that is how it works. I can't keep running in circles with you forever.

As for NxT being a scam, they have tricked you into thinking that it is decentralized like bitcoin. That is a lie, and thus you are getting scammed. They will get corrupted due this fault and fail because of it. It also makes no difference if humans are writing the code. Bitcoin is a fully decentralized network of humans writing the code and NxT is not.

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

anyone can make a change to the core of nxt and release their version no different to bitcoin. it is down to the users to decide which version they would prefer to use and thus the users come to consensus on which update to use. this is in no ways different to how bitcoin is done.

i can say the same about bitcoin and the oligarch miners. there are only a handful of major miners in control of the bitcoin network - therefore it is centralized.. see how easy that was. ;D your talking shite and you know it.

but we are making progress.. we have whittled it down to "nxt IS decentralized" except for the ONLY part being the "centralized development process".. a few pages back it was centralized for different reasons as far as i can remember and the development process wasnt mentioned. so not only does the fud get crappier, it also contradicts what was said a few pages back. anyway, who "reviews" the code before changes are made to bitcoin? iv certainly never seen a tweet(seeing as jeff is so fond of tweets lately) with a link to code asking if the code is good.. so where does the code get "peer reviewed" and by who?? if it is jeffs buddies behind closed doors then that is still centralized according to your theory. all i ever see is an announcement by jeff when a change has been made. no mention of what WILL be done or who it will be reviewed by.

ok you better keep it coming cos im getting bored now.. i want fresh fud..throw it at me.. comon im ready for ya! ;D

LOL thanks man. I'm tapping out, you're doing a good enough job without me.

This is a good thing. The centralized nature of NXT will make it a good candidate as local fiat currency or corporate gift certificates.

ding ding ding... knock out! lol

@above post.. ya that was a scare tactic.. im wrecked so im going to sleep :) i will resume the FUD war in the morning..

@FUDsters.. il give you time to reload your FUD cannons and patch your wounds.. go and eat, sleep, wank off to granny porn and do what ever else you do to relax and we will continue the battle in the morning.. i expect class A FUD to be plastered all over this thread by the morning.. dont let me down soldiers.. i didnt come here to make daisy chains so come packing or dont come at all ;)

peace <3 :-* xXx

Sleep is yet another weakness of mere humans. That is why we work together as a collective. We've developed pretty good workarounds for our weaknesses.

Your continual use of logical fallacies will ensure that people not smart enough to recognize them will flow towards NxT. Never did I, nor anybody else, say that the only part of NxT that is centralized is the development process. It was simply one example, the only one necessary to complete my argument about how it signals that the entirety of NxT is centralized because of that choke-point, one which does not exist in bitcoin. Whether you like it or not, bitcoin mining is becoming more decentralized as people figure out how to employ P2Pool in their hardware.

NxT supporters can shout insults and question people's age, but they cannot convince any intelligent person that NxT is decentralized. Putting your faith in somebody's claim about their education is yet another logical fallacy. The only FUD that needs to be cleaned up here is coming from your side. Even if I was Satoshi himself, that would not necessarily mean that I know more about bitcoin than somebody else.

I'm glad you are fighting for NxT. People like you are secretly a great ally to bitcoiners.

On the contrary, it's hard to convince people that Bitcoin is decentralized now after Ghash owned 51%-53% of its hashrate back in June, and probably continues to own half or more of its hashrate now disguised at other mining addresses, or do you think they switched off part of their equipment and decided they should lose on their investment? Think again.

Actually, it's the only one that we've got that works.  8)

You don't seem to understand how mining pools operate. It's possible the 51% was a statistical artifact. You also seem to think that people have expensive capital intentionally sitting idle. That may work for paper investments, but Bitcoiners work for a living. If GHash.io is indeed a super miner, then they deserve the profits they make while the rest of the world drools over their hyperinflating paper notes. Hashrate is growing exponentially. Bitcoin is becoming competitive and you ain't seen nothing yet.

This. PoS doesn't "achieve consensus", simple as that. It's imposed by the devs fixing artificially a certain version of the blockchain as the correct one (these checkpoints). Note that this is a completely different concept than the checkpointing used in bitcoin.

You remove checkpointing from bitcoin, and it will still work.
You remove checkpointing from PoS, and it will be crashed.

NXT in its bootstrapping phase (which is now) uses rolling automatic checkpoints, 720 blocks deep. Meaning everything older than 720 blocks is set in stone and can't be reversed. Is that what you call artificial fixing? Once the bootstrapping phase is completed and Transparent Forging is implemented in a few months, the window will shorten from 720 to 10 blocks.

It's not about 'deserving the profits'. It's about the effects and possible risks of centralization.

And, if you want to make that point, about wasting energy and resources in a competition who can burn the most energy. Which also creates a fiat leak btw: miners háve to sell coins to pay the bills.

Bitcoin is decentralized. Satoshi wrote about the incentive to attack vs. incentive to profit. Nobody has shown a way to make a 51% attack that would have any chance at profitability. All trolls do is create FUD. Even if a trillionaire decided he had so many extra billions laying around he wanted to just burn, he could buy the gear to make a 51% attack. That would be an eye opening event indeed about how important Bitcoin must be. He would be able to buy bitcoins and then double spend them. If he bought a lot of bitcoins, he would drive up the price a lot. If he wanted to double spend he would have to buy something. Anyone willing to sell something worth millions of dollars without identification is asking for trouble. After he defrauded them, they could prosecute him. If he only wanted to prove a point that Bitcoin can be 51% attacked, that would be the most expensive hurr durr in history.

The point is not about making it unprofitable to buy 51% of hashrate to attack, nobody would do that, certainly not the would-be attackers. The point is about making it impossible to kill a crypto. The would-be attacker would have exactly that in mind - kill it off because it threatens their existence and status quo, not make a profit out of it. And that's where Bitcoin is a complete failure, as its mining operations are an easy target. Bitcoin is too small now to bother to shut it down, but rest assured, if it grows bigger, they will strike at the very core of its operations - large mining farms. However, there is a chance it will not grow bigger, and people will just migrate to more secure crypto 2.0 technologies, that run on PoS algorithms (not necessarily NXT), and which don't require vulnerable mining farms or huge waste of electricity to operate.

I think ultimately every "coin" project has a right to exist and only the time can tell what is scam and what is not.

 
Truth about Bitcoin is that it is highly centralized on many points :

 - very few ASIC manufacturers
 - very few pools owning 95 % of the network
 - very few ASIC farms owned by few companies
 - most giant ASIC farms are located in China
 - very few developers on Bitcoin code stopping other people from adding modification
 - very few nodes around the world (about 7K only)
 - 40% of nodes are located in USA
 - a Bitcoin foundation (https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/overview/) with selected members
 - 1 Bitcoin forum owning most of discussions

All these points has been discussed for a long time and neglected for the only argument that "it should get better with time".
Sorry to wake you up but it is only getting worse.


So if you are saying that Nxt is centralized, you must admit that Bitcoin is centralized too and that's more a problem.

I'm not starting a kid fight Bitcoin vs Nxt, this is ridiculous but there is a kid on this thread pretending to be smart, repeating the recycled same crap on and on to get attention but I think that Bitcoin have some issues that are far more important at the moment.

Of course you invent some bogeyman that wants to shut Bitcoin down. Who is that exactly? If you get to invent a supervillain, I get to make up a superhero. Your Arch Nemesis that wants to destroy freedom will be met by Captain Bitcoin! Don't you see how silly your paranoid argument sounds?

he isnt being paranoid.. hes dead right. everything devphp said is spot on and for what ever reason your putting it all down as paranoia and refuse to counter his argument with anything substantial and instead accuse him of being a loony paranoid person? the oligarchs of the world or banks or the best example, the ones that have the most to lose from a collapse of fiat, the FED or the US government would most certainly do everything in their power to stay in control, and if it meant sending a "terrorist" to bomb the 2-3 largest bitcoin mining farms to take it down, that wouldnt be all that difficult for them to do. i guess the americans wouldnt bomb a handful of bitcoin mines to protect the petro-dollar no? damn straight they would find a way.

you are the one that just cant let go and admit that you are wrong and that bitcoin IS flawed. the majority of people who are not bias or stupid have admitted it. i guess it will just take time for the rest to give up fighting the truth.

Wow. You played the "T" card so soon? I guess your hand is played out.

it seems you are the one who has played and lost every hand.  ::)

Nice burn dood.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112643/the-mystery-of-the-missing-1000000-nxt

Any comment Jeff?

Maybe Jeff and Josh met at a bipolar disorder anonymous meeting.

Nobody in the Bitcoin community has impuned Jeff's character.

OFFER OF UP TO 20 BTC FOR INFO ON JL777

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=806495.0

Hilarious popcorn-thread  ;D

I have. His hatred towards NXT is blind and childish.

Cebtralized means one agreeing party!
With bitcoin this is not the case ,, there is a concensis in running the bitcoin network , but the owners of asics can be in IRAN , ISRAEL , RUSSIA , USA so this means realdezentralized control , blocking any form of abuse by one single party...
https://blockchain.info/pools tels evrything , NXT is centraly controled , and is as "save" as fiat , witch has an everage of 27 years.....
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.nl/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.html
the power of bitcoin is in the fact that is is a concensus between enemys.....


, CHINA , islamtic state , and others...

Do you have proof of that?

Sort of like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqAnZzmIAAAmnq0.png:large

this never heppend!!! :)

https://blockchain.info/pools are the REAL stats.....

just one of the lies lagacy would come with!!! sorry!
LMAO..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LRRA1tBIS8
so please dont come up with a senario that is not feasible even with a 51% situation.
1 you need to control all the miners GHASH.io is just relaying.
2 if you want control to reverse transactions etc , its not very feasible because you can make more money with mining and blocking a evil chain is very easy.
things that cant be fixed in the centralized NXT protocol.....

You are wrong and it seems that you are not very well informed about Nxt.

If Nxt is "centrally controlled" how could it be that after the big Bter theft, the proposed rollback of the blockchain, which the Nxt chief developer supported with a special release of the client, never happened? The Nxt miners ("forgers") voted against it! So Nxt is really a decentralized system!

Even better, there was no (centralized) 'vote' :)
Most forgers just didn't start forging on the alternate fork (?)

I know the technique but the network will stop being decentralized if the mining power keep concentrating in the hands of few.
Mining became an industrial business.
Big business tend to eliminate the small ones and merge together to establish strong corporation.

See the picture ?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ocbPrqndyXI/VA3HV5GGMFI/AAAAAAACDfQ/JdwINDhWMKs/s1600/bitcoin_farms_06.jpg


Bitcoin mining could be owned by one single big company in a near future and nothing would stop them.
What would you do ? Mine with your single old GPU and hope balancing the mining power ?

I am still waiting for the very cheap ASIC that everyone can afford to decentralize the network... Where are they ?

Thats always the case , but not owned by ONE controled group of people........
NTXT is ,
so yes bitcoin is decntalized  way more then nxt wil ever be.
because bit partyś are ofthen enemyś ;)
So please stop to pusch the centralized is bhetter store because its not .....
Bitcoin is decentralized look at the statss   https://blockchain.info/pools
as lang you have multiple BIG partyś it is sill decentralized!
NXT is owned by ONE party so its just nod good.

Exactly, look at the stats (that's ~300 successful pools/miners producing blocks in NXT):

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_charts

https://i.imgur.com/ksCvHIO.png

Stop lying :)

NXT may be controlled by one party. There's no real world way to verify either way. It's like Byzantine Generals using anonymous couriers instead of their own recruits (to borrow a metaphor to use as a simile). The couriers may be trustworthy or they may be spies. No military trained General would ever trust such a courier, yet NXT people trust anonymous stakeholders (or their appointees) to not be bad agents. It's downright irresponsible to develop such a system.

Funny :D

This guy (cbeast) is obviously butthurt over NXT. I really do think NXT must have unwantedly penetrated him or something because not much else can explain this behavior.

The user cbeast may be Jeff Garzik himself. There's no way to verify either way.
Or maybe... we should compare hashes?

Call the cyber police !
Nxt is downright irresponsible !

It's funny how so many people claim they are pro-crypto when in fact they are anti-crypto.  Guys like cbeast are just in it for the money, it's obvious, they don't care about the crypto movement and only want to protect their holdings (BTC).  Jeff is even worse, he should be a supporter of all new projects, yet he does his best to try and discredit anything that isn't BTC related.  It's no wonder BTC is down so much.  People are working against each other rather then with each other. 

Nobody is against any projects. Just quit bashing Bitcoin on the Bitcoin forum and maybe you won't look like such a fool.

You post FUD as a defense to comments made by others?  That seems counter intuitive.  And Yes, you are against Nxt, it's obvious you have never used the client nor do you understand how it works, you are just regurgitating false information, which makes you look like the fool.

I am not against the design of nxt. I think it should be cloned even more than bitcoin.

I am not trying to regulate, just shouting fraud when I see fraud.
If you don't, you are fraud.
Altcoins are not a fraud if they are started as another experiment.
Altcoins become a fraud the day their founders start "marketing" them, making false promises of decentralization, performance or "fairness".
Bitcoin does not need fixing because it ain't broken.

"Central Banking doesn't need fixing because it ain't broken."
You sound like a true Believer  ;D

All things can be improved. Even better: we should try to break things! Adopt, adapt and improve.

http://www.coindesk.com/gavin-andresen-bitcoin-hard-fork/

 ::) Okay.  So what are you against?  That's like saying, "I'm not against the design of Bitcoin, but I'm against Gox hacks, I'm against Satoshi mining solo for a year, I'm against the way mining has become corporate etc... so I think Bitcoin is a scam coin"  The lists of reasons Jeff thinks Nxt is a scam are all superficial and have nothing to do with the core technology.  Regardless, you tear down rather than build up, be constructive, do something good for crypto.

Those are words:

Dude, I never said I hated nxt. I just don't agree with some of the claims about it. It is simply not provably decentralized. You can say the same thing about Bitcoin if you want. I don't care. This is getting to be a religious argument. Nxt proponents that claim it is decentralized are making unfalsifiable claims. There is plenty of room for centralized coins that don't use any electricity.

Nxt proponents that claim it is decentralized are making unfalsifiable claims.

when you make claims it is centralized you are making unfalsifiable claims.

you cant have one with out the other. prove one is correct and from that you can prove the other to be false. find proof before posting again and STOP SPREADING FUD. im not arguing now which is one is a true statement ie nxt is centralised or not, im just pointing out that you are an idiot if you think you can say one is fact and the other is unfalsifiable. and dont say that you have not stated, as if it were fact, that nxt is centralised because you have many times. your an outright hypocrite with motivations that cause you to post such bullsh*t.

The original claimant has the responsibility to offer falsification. Popper may not be dead, but this is a basic axiom of science. NXT users claim that it cannot become permanently centralized. They offer no test to verify if it is decentralized. They just say so.

Isn't the original claimant here Jeff Garzik? He posted accusations, he has the responsibility to prove. So far there's been no proof whatsoever. And you guys attacking NXT are just piggybacking on Jeff's accusations, possessing no proof either.

PoS crypto like NXT platforms will get more and more decentralized. More users using/owning NXT -> better distribution -> more lightweight wallets staking (on phones and raspberrypi's) -> even more secure network. Also, as soon as the Transparent Forging technology is ready, one would need to own (=buy) more than 90+% of all NXT, if I understand correctly. That would drive the price of NXT through the roof.

BTC will become more and more centralized (physically). As difficulty of mining increases, it can't be done by consumers, only by companies that can invest in expensive equipment. Companies merge and get bought. They will be in central locations that can house massive server parks, needing huge amounts of energy. It's much easier and cheaper to (physically) attack of hack of dismantle a couple of centralized server farms than it is to take down a decentralized network that runs on peoples phones and private computers.

Seems rather obvious actually.

You're talking about hypotheticals and vaporware. Go you.

Calling miners centralized is meaningless. Technology development doesn't stand still. There is always someone competing. Companies merge and also split. Your argument is a red herring. The whole energy thing is called work. That's why it's called proof of work.

Seems rather obvious actually.

Well, at least now we're sure it's a waste of time to try to have a rational discussion with user cbeast. He's just trolling.

Please stop taking my statements out of context.

Your statements only apply in limited context then? How is that not hypocritical? Isn't the burden of proof on the shoulders of one who makes accusations?

He's just trying to troll you for the sake of bumping a thread he likes. Just let it die.

In order to save electricity and mining costs, NxT removes all incentive for economic activity by punishing spenders with PoS mining. Bitcoin has this problem only when it is experiencing a bubble, and over time, as the bubbles become smaller and less volatile, there will be zero incentive to hold bitcoin as an investment.

I'm ignoring my own advice, but you clearly don't understand how NXT forging works. Less than 10% of NXT holders have enough NXT to stand a shot at actually forging blocks.

Therefore, 90% of users aren't "punished" with PoS mining, any more than bitcoin users are punished with PoW mining.

If you observed the NXT Asset Exchange activity in the past few months, you'd know that forgers have to make a choice each time new assets are issued. Some assets are really promising and made 5-10x ROI for their investors already. If those users were simply forging, they'd get a measly 0.5%/year returns on their stakes. So no, you're wrong, economic activity is actually on the rise. The trading volumes on NXT AE are not huge yet, but adequate for this stage of development. It makes sense to take a risk and buy into profitable assets, AE is a built-in feature of NXT that cannot be shut down by SEC or such.

i too thought this was going to be a scamcoin myself, but their development output is proving otherwise. 

its sad to see nxt getting all this negative publicity, while they just keep cranking out stuff non-stop.

they seem to have the monetary system out this week, its going to kill the altcoin market it seems. its nxt's sidechain implementation:

https://i.imgur.com/j3luomW.png

I really like this advantage of NxT. With Bitcoin, any one sidechain can fail without affecting the rest of the network, including the main blockchain. In fact, every sidechain could fail and bitcoin would remain completely unaffected. With NxT, if one MS Currency fails then that calls into question the integrity of not just that "sidechain", if you will, but ALL other "sidechains" as well as the main blockchain.

Essentially, with NxT MS Currencies, you get to keep all your eggs in one basket, which my mother always said was the best way to do things. I mean, she did lose $2.2million of our families money by investing in Enron, but I really think she gave great advice!

Go NxT!!!!

I don't think so. Is your assumption based on facts or is it only a feeling you have?

Please elaborate.

Since your a newbie, I'll give you a break, but you obviously know nothing about Nxt MS or side chains.

I have no idea where that comes from. One of two options:  I dont understand your point, or you are totally wrong.  ???

Essentially, they are arguing that centralizing sidechains into one single blockchain is, somehow, a way to "decentralize" sidechains. They are essentially arguing for an oxymoron and are too bogged down with technical details to see the big picture. It's the same problem Ghash.IO had when they were trying to convince this forum that a pool having over 50% of the net hashrate wasn't a bad thing. Lots of technical bullshit, one big fatal flaw that a 3rd grader could easily point out.

Let the usual NxT hand-waving begin!

No hand-waving here, but I want to point to the official documentation:

http://nxt.org/the-ecosystem/monetary-system/ (http://nxt.org/the-ecosystem/monetary-system/)


and

Haha, since you are a technical wizard, please detail the 3rd grader fatal flaw.