[2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”

[notthematrix]

any non mineble currency is like fiat , it can be inflated forever and thats the problem.

I think you are thinking about Peercoin and most other POS implementations which pay forgers via a steady inflation rate.. with Nxt the only thing powering the network is transaction fees.  Meaning that the currency is capped and there will never be another Nxt created.. though they can be destroyed.  So no, Nxt is not inflationary.

point is all nxt are pre  mined...... so centralized..... thats the problem , humans can not be trusted here , a single point of failure is not an option.

[habraken]

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

[notthematrix]

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.
banks counterfit dollars everyday!

[nutildah]

point is all nxt are pre  mined...... so centralized..... thats the problem , humans can not be trusted here , a single point of failure is not an option.

Actually no NXT are premined because they are not mined, and mining and centralization don't necessarily have a direct correlation.

You have to trust a human to write code at a certain point, right? NXT is open-source and decentralized; there is no single-point-of-failure that you speak of.. If there is you'll need to be a little bit more specific.

I'm not bumping this thread anymore. I didn't know who Jeff Garzik was before today, hopefully I'll have forgotten by tomorrow.

[superresistant]

 
What most people fail to understand on this forum but also in society is that :

Wealth is not a giant cake where everyone has a part.
You cannot hold wealth like you hold a piece of apple-pie.

You have to understand that wealth/value only exist if there are exchanges between people.
The more trades, the more wealth.

Do not forget that a part of it is subjective :
You can call Nxt a scam and think it is worth nothing but it is only your opinion and you are wrong because people buy it.
The market always say the truth. Altcoins are worth something because people exchange them.
From those trade, wealth/value is created.

[habraken]

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.

Nope, it's just one of the methods used, an old and wasteful one, leading to centralization.
There are other ways to check transactions, better ways.

[cbeast]

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.

Nope, it's just one of the methods used, an old and wasteful one, leading to centralization.
There are other ways to check transactions, better ways.

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

If someone has another "consensus" technology that solves the Byzantine Generals problem using something other than PoW, then they should publish a paper. A better solution for Bitcoin would be for large mining pools to find their own checkpoints they feel would protect their blockchains. Large mining pools can form their own consensus. They can consult with whatever developers or whomever they wish. They are risking their own blockchains. There is no need for a algo that determines checkpoints or the people that do so. Bitcoin can continue to grow organically and develop until better solutions unfold that help the blockchains stay secure and reasonably efficient, while still maintaining the decentralization that solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

[Boussac]

To me , anybody talking about bitcoin 2.0 sounds like microsoft talking about web 2.0.
There is no such thing as web 2.0.
There is only one web that 's open to improvements through RFCs and a browser upgrade.
Bitcoin is open to improvements through BIPS and a wallet upgrade.
Only banksters-scammers are anxious to make money with altcoins.
Altcoins are experimental chains (even more experimental than Bitcoin is) and should not be "marketed".
Marketing is dead or should be killed.
Long live growth hacking.
And yes, Jeff Garzik is mostly right in is assesment of altcoins.

[superresistant]

Altcoins are experimental chains (even more experimental than Bitcoin is) and should not be "marketed".
Marketing is dead or should be killed.

You sound like a government trying to regulate everything.
You have no right to decide how people use their money.
This goes against the idea of Bitcoin itself.

Long live free market.

[subSTRATA]

Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”

Around the same time that Chris Odom, the creator of Open Transactions, was dismissing the relevance of altcoins at InsideBitcoins London, Bitcoin core developer Jeff Garzik was tied up in a public spat with the NXT community. As someone who has been suspicious of projects that create their own cryptocoins for quite some time, I’m happy to see this public debate on the legitimacy of appcoins

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-developer-jeff-garzik-believes-nxt-is-a-scamcoin/

Relevant, in case no one posted it yet:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/cryptocurrency-to-cryptocurrency-ipos-are-a-completely-corrupt-deception-the-simple-technical-guide/

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.

Nope, it's just one of the methods used, an old and wasteful one, leading to centralization.
There are other ways to check transactions, better ways.

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

If someone has another "consensus" technology that solves the Byzantine Generals problem using something other than PoW, then they should publish a paper. A better solution for Bitcoin would be for large mining pools to find their own checkpoints they feel would protect their blockchains. Large mining pools can form their own consensus. They can consult with whatever developers or whomever they wish. They are risking their own blockchains. There is no need for a algo that determines checkpoints or the people that do so. Bitcoin can continue to grow organically and develop until better solutions unfold that help the blockchains stay secure and reasonably efficient, while still maintaining the decentralization that solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

You want to say PoS cryptocoins do not work?

[CoinMode]

Altcoins are experimental chains (even more experimental than Bitcoin is) and should not be "marketed".
Marketing is dead or should be killed.

You sound like a government trying to regulate everything.
You have no right to decide how people use their money.
This goes against the idea of Bitcoin itself.

Long live free market.

Exactly! Finally, somebody who gets it.


NxT = a single, 100% centrally-controlled company
Bitcoin = a free market


I think we all know which option is the best. Case closed.

[nutildah]

NxT = a single, 100% centrally-controlled company
Bitcoin = a free market


I think we all know which option is the best. Case closed.

How old are you?

edit: Nevermind. I see what you're doing. You're just bumping your own thread. Sorry you sold your BTC at the recent low but that's not NXT's fault.

[CoinMode]

NxT = a single, 100% centrally-controlled company
Bitcoin = a free market


I think we all know which option is the best. Case closed.

How old are you?

edit: Nevermind. I see what you're doing. You're just bumping your own thread. Sorry you sold your BTC at the recent low but that's not NXT's fault.

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Secondly, you just accused me of being Litecoinguy and bumping my own thread.

In case you don't have the capacity to figure it out, I'll let you know that I am promoting bitcoin and every other cryptographically mineable coin and denouncing "coins", such as NxT and Ripple, as scamcoins.

It's great that you like bitcoin, if that is indeed what you mean to say, but please do brush up on your logical deduction skills before proceeding in this market. Otherwise, you are just making bitcoiners look unintelligent.

[kodtycoon]

NxT = a single, 100% centrally-controlled company
Bitcoin = a free market


I think we all know which option is the best. Case closed.

How old are you?

edit: Nevermind. I see what you're doing. You're just bumping your own thread. Sorry you sold your BTC at the recent low but that's not NXT's fault.

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Secondly, you just accused me of being Litecoinguy and bumping my own thread.

In case you don't have the capacity to figure it out, I'll let you know that I am promoting bitcoin and every other cryptographically mineable coin and denouncing "coins", such as NxT and Ripple, as scamcoins.

It's great that you like bitcoin, if that is indeed what you mean to say, but please do brush up on your logical deduction skills before proceeding in this market. Otherwise, you are just making bitcoiners look unintelligent.

can you explain exactly how or who has been "scammed" out of money? users go to an exchange to buy nxt, they buy nxt, they get nxt, they trade it and do as they wish with it. and they get exactly what they want. at what point did someone get scammed? because all i see is users buying an asset at a price they wish to pay and doing as they wish with it and at no point has anyone been manipulated or deceived in doing so. so please.. give your definition of a scam and then apply that definition to nxt and show me your results that brought you to the conclusion that someone has been "scammed" by this "scam" called nxt?

also, watch from about 24m.. lol PoS is catching on with people that actually matter compared to FUDsters like yourself

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdSF19foO8E&feature=youtu.be

[nutildah]

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

[CoinMode]

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized. If all of bitcoin mining was centralized in one entity, then the entire currency would effectively be centralized. That one miner could control every single thing about bitcoin. If only one group was allowed to lobby politicians about bitcoin policy, then they would control all of bitcoin. If only one marketplace in the world was allowed to exchange bitcoin, then they would control all of bitcoin.


What you have with NxT is a case where all of it is decentralized except for one component, the development process, and therefore the development team has total control. It's the same thing with the dollar. For the most part, it is pretty well decentralized. Anybody around the world can use it to exchange anything they want at any time in any market. Individual banks can determine how they use the dollar to give out loans and manage savings, for the most part. Then you have the centralized part, the Federal Reserve, which has total control over the supply of dollars in the world, and that one choke-point is all it takes to manipulate the dollar.

NxT Development Team = USD Federal Reserve

The way these two things mirror each other is that they are both the central choke-point which will guarantee that their respective currencies/commodities will not last very long. We've been talking about this over and over in this thread, but you aren't listening. You just waste time by asking about my age, which is absolutely pointless and a waste of time to discuss. Then you go on to use language such as "hence" while telling yourself that appealing to age is an intelligent part of conversation.

I know you don't get how this works, but let me lay it out for you clearly once more.

decentralized exchanges + decentralized development + decentralized lobbying + decentralized investing = 100% decentralized currency

decentralized exchanges + centralized development + decentralized lobbying + decentralized investing = 100% centralized currency

You just don't seem to be able to put all the pieces together at one time.

[kodtycoon]

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

What you have with NxT is a case where all of it is decentralized except for one component, the development process

ok.. so you say all of nxt is totally decentralized except the development process.. can you elaborate on exactly how that is the case? please explain exactly what you mean by that line.

the way i see it is yes the dev team is anonymous, big whoop so was satoshi. the software gets released and is open source for anyone to check. aslong as the software is sound and free of any malicious code, what is the problem? you cant say it is closed to other developers because i have seen developers put forward ideas and then be allowed write the code for integration have it reviewed tested and finally integrated. i dont think this could be any more decentralized. please explain clearly what you mean by this statement because it sounds like your pulling FUD out your ass.

and please back up your claims with proof. or else it can only be taken as FUD.

[CoinMode]

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

What you have with NxT is a case where all of it is decentralized except for one component, the development process

ok.. so you say all of nxt is totally decentralized except the development process.. can you elaborate on exactly how that is the case? please explain exactly what you mean by that line.

the way i see it is yes the dev team is anonymous, big whoop so was satoshi. the software gets released and is open source for anyone to check. aslong as the software is sound and free of any malicious code, what is the problem? you cant say it is closed to other developers because i have seen developers put forward ideas and then be allowed write the code for integration have it reviewed tested and finally integrated. i dont think this could be any more decentralized. please explain clearly what you mean by this statement because it sounds like your pulling FUD out your ass.

and please back up your claims with proof. or else it can only be taken as FUD.

Your own words prove you wrong. Check the bolded text. Whoever gets to decide who is allowed to write code is a centralized checkpoint. That is not decentralized at all, no matter who is writing the code, so long as a centralized entity (aka the NxT development team) has the final say in what does or doesn't get added.

As for the part about decentralizing mining and making it more transparent, the guys in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdSF19foO8E&t=24m36s) don't seem to understand what P2Pool means for bitcoin mining. It decentralizes mining and makes pools obsolete. Fans of PoS completely skip over this solution.

PoS = Disincentive of Use + decentralized mining
PoW + P2Pool = Incentive of Use + decentralized mining

One of those two is far better than the other.

[nutildah]

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized.

So basically when bitcoin core gets updated by a human its decentralized but when NXT gets updated by a human its centralized. Makes no sense, yet you keep repeating it as if it did...

Oh, I just figured out what the problem is. You don't know what "centralization" means.

[cbeast]

The price of NXT is in a way irrelevant, it's a token, enabling various existing and valuable crypto services on the platform.
Don't get stuck on the old ideas of 'mining' and 'coins'. It's so 2013...

mining is needed to avoid counterfitting.

Nope, it's just one of the methods used, an old and wasteful one, leading to centralization.
There are other ways to check transactions, better ways.

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

If someone has another "consensus" technology that solves the Byzantine Generals problem using something other than PoW, then they should publish a paper. A better solution for Bitcoin would be for large mining pools to find their own checkpoints they feel would protect their blockchains. Large mining pools can form their own consensus. They can consult with whatever developers or whomever they wish. They are risking their own blockchains. There is no need for a algo that determines checkpoints or the people that do so. Bitcoin can continue to grow organically and develop until better solutions unfold that help the blockchains stay secure and reasonably efficient, while still maintaining the decentralization that solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

You want to say PoS cryptocoins do not work?

I'm saying they work as well as fiat currencies because they don't solve the problem with fiat currencies.