we still have not surpassed satoshi's 7tx/s calculation (600k tx a day) and he calculated that 8 years ago
I disagree since even developer/technical page mention this fact. Additionally we've surpassed 7tx/s, come on.. think realistically.. not optimistically where has there ever been a case where 600,000 people were able to get their transaction confirmed all in one day show me a day that the transaction count surpassed 600k, to show that bitcoin has grown to surpass the capacity to allow 600,000 people to use bitcoin a day peer-to-peer not group-to-peer not custodian-to-peers but per-to-peer
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You know, the one that atheists use:
? in every be lief is a lie?
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the final difficulty adjustment of 2018 just happened. and so now we are in the realm of mining pools knowing the next difficulty jump WILL be affected by the delivery of next gen asics getting delivered in a week to thousands of people. pushing up hashrate. pushing up costs. and therefore making many prefer to buy coin as a cheaper option, sparking a price rise
Interesting. However, many have claimed that 6000$ was the bottom because it was close to the mining costs. (I didn't agree back then, I claimed the mining costs are not so well known.) We are still under 4000$, so either miners are mining at a loss and still don't care, either the mining cost was close to 3000$-3500$. Only in this case your theory could be correct, although historically (eg when Bitcoin has fallen under 250$ in 2015 and stayed low for almost a year) the price has its periods when it was clearly under the mining costs. PRICE is not the underlying value first 3 quarters of 2018 $5800 was a good measure.. then in october hashrate curved down. and then price curved down in november. in 2015 the hashrate was between 250peta-400petahash during the stagnant period which doing math of asics at the time... it was break even/profitable there was a bit in august 2015 which touched on the break-even testing the bottomline.. then by autumn the hashrate and the market price moved up
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bull run= 2016 $300^ 2017 $900^ 2018 $3200^
daily/weekly volatility= cubs(small bears) v calves(small bulls)^
personally i use the mining cost/market dynamic numbers to help find the bottomline support which has been a good guide for years of knowing the bottom.
the final difficulty adjustment of 2018 just happened. and so now we are in the realm of mining pools knowing the next difficulty jump WILL be affected by the delivery of next gen asics getting delivered in a week to thousands of people. pushing up hashrate. pushing up costs. and therefore making many prefer to buy coin as a cheaper option, sparking a price rise
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Eventually, the Bitcoin ATM would be moved from my place to a small business one of my friends own, to help Bitcoin reach mainstream adoption within my region. be careful here. because you will be handling fiat outside of your home.. inside of your home "hobby" (non public use) your fine with family and friends. doing small justifiable amounts privately in your own home. but as soon as you put it out in public. KYC/AML.. and registering as a money business and security of the ATM become costly EG MSB licences and insurances are not cheap EG you need a safe/lockbox in the ATM thats going to keep the bank notes safe if someone put a hammer to it EG you need to bolt it to the small business premises floor and make it not easy to pick up and leave your friends premises this is why people ended up just working as an "agent" of a MSB and leasing a BTM. rather than having to become an MSB yourself
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if for your own playing around you wont need it to have a secure 'safe' for the bank notes. i presume you would only store bank notes in it while you play. thus you can manually manage that risk of the ATM full of bank notes being taken out your house you would need a bank note feeder/note counter(to make sure it doesnt spit out too many bank notes) and makes sure it doesnt accept crayon drawn(forged) bank notes big tip. dont let the computer/controller board. be an actual wallet containing keys. instead let it just be a API sender/receiver to a remote system that does the actual coin handling this will mean you can get away with using a raspberry pi because you wont be doing full blockchain checks in the ATM. you will just be API calling in and out data as for making one. google has the answers.. and here is one https://openbitcoinatm.wordpress.com/tutorial/
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if this (bb7f7a0988e96f9939d0a39effc969ff5c1c18be9fe667ddde65c290dd8ae2d0) is the transaction you have in mind (which has 200 inputs) then it is not single key SegWit which you are comparing with a single key legacy transaction! it is a multi signature SegWit with 2 signatures in it (2 of 3) so each output is increased by 2 additional pubkeys (2*32 byte + 1 byte size + 4 byte op codes) which has nothing to do with SegWit!
as for scriptsig in this type of transaction it is there because they are using a workaround for using SegWit instead of using SegWit itself (workaround being nested in p2sh). if you use direct SegWit instead scriptsig would be empty !
not specifically that one, but there a are a few of that exact format so the whole hype of scaling using LN is "be like VISA" visa dont have multisig.. they just do straight peer-visa-peer. so using the peer-to peer and not the group-to peer .. you know.. making transactions lean and simple peer to peer. ... deactivating BLOATING contracts ... deactivating transactions that use more bytes (even 'singlekey' segwit uses more hard drive bytes than legacy does by the way) and going back to basics of lean peer-to-peer network now imagine it was legacy, and no witness scale factor and the legacy cap was 2.3mb(to keep the block the same hard drive bytes used limit as the block exampled).. more than 230 tx's would have fit in
If you had bothered to acknowledge the point made in the first post, you might have noticed concern has been expressed about the rate at which the total size of the blockchain is growing. Obviously you don't care, but others do. Understand your audience. Try just for a moment to appreciate that you are not the only user on this chain. If users want to run code that utilises scale witness factor, they can.
witness scalefactor does not stop spammers spamming should they wish. witness scale factor does not stop block sizes increasing. but the whole segwit+witnes scale factor does limit tx count growth and does mess with the bloat vs hard drive utility per tx count my answer of if this (bb7f7a0988e96f9939d0a39effc969ff5c1c18be9fe667ddde65c290dd8ae2d0) is the transaction you have in mind (which has 200 inputs) then it is not single key SegWit which you are comparing with a single key legacy transaction! it is a multi signature SegWit with 2 signatures in it (2 of 3) so each output is increased by 2 additional pubkeys (2*32 byte + 1 byte size + 4 byte op codes) which has nothing to do with SegWit!
as for scriptsig in this type of transaction it is there because they are using a workaround for using SegWit instead of using SegWit itself (workaround being nested in p2sh). if you use direct SegWit instead scriptsig would be empty !
the whole hyp of scaling is "be like VISA" visa dont have multisig.. they just do straight peer via peer. so using the peer-to peer and not the group-to peer .. you know.. making transactions lean and simple peer to peer. ... deactivating BLOATING contracts ... deactivating transactions that use more bytes (even 'singlekey' segwit uses more hard drive bytes than legacy does by the way) and going back to basics of lean peer-to-peer network now imagine it was legacy, and no witness scale factor and the legacy cap was 2.3mb(to keep the block the same hard drive bytes used limit as the block exampled).. more than 230 tx's would have fit in
would still apply as going back to simple peer-to-peer.. AND being leaner them 230 transactions would fit in LESS than 2.3mb... so that 2.3mb would fit more than 230tx i know you dont like me discussing things. but this is a discussion board. the ignore button is free
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naming them is pointless. but knowing values that move through exchanges is the important part.
after all if a big name was to be named they would never admit the exact minute they would buy/sell as that would hurt their own profitability. but just think about how much needs to be invested to be a whale to have 1% of the circulation as a elit group and in that group be someone that has atleast 1% of that you need atleast 2100btc
so think about how much you have invested and you will be roughly in that ball park
$100 algae $1000 tadpole $10,000 goldfish $100,000 salmon $1m shark $10m whale
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as soon as i read its a cell phone app i instantly knew its not blockchain/decentralised.
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Most of you are wrong, since SegWit activation, maximum block size weight limit is 4 million weight unit (not 4MB).
Actual maximum block size depends on the transaction (SegWit or non-SegWit) and how big (in byte) is the signature or/and P2SH size (if transaction use SegWit). 4MB block size is possible, but only under very specific transaction format.
thats the wishy washy code, where devs pretend they have given the community 4mb space. but the reality is expectant to be around 1.2mb-2.1mb average while witness scale factor is limiting utility below 4mb we still have not surpassed satoshi's 7tx/s calculation (600k tx a day) and he calculated that 8 years ago
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We have Segwit because of Nakamoto consensus. This is how Bitcoin update works but Frank and bigblockers does not respecting it.
Will they shitting on Schnorr signatures when ready?
what you and your chums need to understand is. having hope, faith and loyalty of a king and promoting a utopian dream and hoping everyone will be loyalist to a king is not what bitcoin was dsigned for. schnorr has negatives. and trying to do personal attacks to hide the negatives is not helping anyone. yes schnorr has negatives. 1. it hides how many parties are involved in a multiparty smart contract 2. when signing. even those involved wont know who signed it. 3. imagine some users are prompted with a smart contract under the belief thats its a 2-of-2 co-sign address.. but the reality is its actually a 2-of-3 smart contract and the other person has 2 keys and you only have 1.. guess what, chances are the other person will sign off funds to themselves when the 'pot' gets big enough that greed takes over morals
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LN is a separate network for utility of multiple coins such as litecoin, vertcoin and bitcoin.
The "Lightning Network" is an off-chain layer, which you can use to make transactions in multiple coins. Plus no, Lightning is not a network of "multiple coins". That is misinformation.your so stuck in a propaganda myth try researching the truth.. heres a keyword chainhash Where's the propaganda? Where is the "myth".
FTFYmyth= look at the purple it allows the LN network to know what chain (network/coin) the payment/channel is involved in. its what allows litecoin, vertcoin and others to use LN. its why LN lets litecoin use it and also allows atomic swaps to occur LN is not a bitcoin layer. its a separate network for multiple coins to use. the "off-chain" is the mis information.. its a way to be subtle that LN is a non blockchain network
Yes I have already heard of that, but it is a long way from where Lightning is today. But wouldn't you say that that is good for trading between coins in a trust-minimized way, decentrally? Wouldn't that reduce our need for centralized exchanges that require KYC/AML? Wouldn't the be better for our freedom? I do not see how it is bad. LN allows other coins that same utility right now. right now nothing is stopping people in litecoin from locking up LTC and then using LN with LN's 12 decimal unblockchained 'payments' bitcoin from locking up BTC and then using LN with LN's 12 decimal unblockchained 'payments' vertcoin from locking up VTC and then using LN with LN's 12 decimal unblockchained 'payments' as for the atomic swap. yes that part is along way away as thats the part where factory/watchtower(masternodes) really will be needed. funny part though. to have masternodes monitoring multipl chains. is like saying users cant handle one chain so a no-chain network is needed.. but inevitably full LN nodes will be multiple chain handling... see the hypocrisy EG man cant handle 1 wife, so lets develop a network with no wife so he can play with prostitutes(channels)... years later.. man need to monitor 4 wives to then play with prostitutes or just risk a prostitiute(cellphone lite wallet) app and trust the prostitutes pimp whos got 4 wives to watch over the payments
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Byzantine generals? How did we get there? Hahaha.
if you dont understand then you have no clue about what blockchains solved in regards to decentralised money. This is what you quoted from my post when you were barking about your so-called "dev-state", and the Byzantine generals, which I do not get the connection, Then how should the Core developers organize themselves to develop the protocol? No public repositories? ..... Are they really the king? I believe they are in charge of development because they are competent.
How did you arrive from the "dev-state" to the Byzantine generals? Is it because there was a word "king"? Haha. bitcoin 2009-2013 was designed so that there was no "general"(singular) cypherpunks for decades were having issues of making digital money in a way that did not require a general(singular) and instead where generals(plural) had an equal playing field where consensus would form majority agreement meaning different brands of nodes that can all HAPPILY(without rekt, without 'dont like it F**k off').. offr proposals which would only activate when TRUE majority consensus was reached(without rekt, without 'dont like it f**k off') and satoshi invented bitcoin because it solved all that.. but now we are in a one general barking out the new orders to their loyal soldiers. and if soldiers were not loyal. they were shot onsite which is the opposite of the whole reason of bitcoin unique invention, which was to finally have a currency which solved the byzantine generals issue to allow more than one brand to actually be on a level playing field. yet you and your chums do not like the idea of having generals(plural) that use consensus. you lot prefer a general(singular) with mandated upgrades and consensus bypassing upgrades that are done without soldier allegiance needed as exampled Everyone? Sure, the incompetent and non-coders can propose anything, and make a pull request, but they should not expect any of their suggestions to be merged in the main branch automatically.
where you think everyone should have to do it via "dev state" repo where its not expected people to even get to the point of having their proposal put into code to even allow anyone to download it, to even have a chance of a community consensus.
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so what are you trying to suggest here?
the number of transactions in that block is 230 because people (services) have been batching transactions and reusing addresses which has led to creating bigger transactions hence taking up bigger space in a block hence a block being able to contain lesser number of them.
this has been the case from day 1 and will be with or without SegWit or even with having a hard fork to a block size 2 MB.
what you notice is that the bloated "batch" tx's are using segwit smart contracts which batched up 200 inputs and 1 output with a 65kb bloat per tx if an exchange used 200 legacy addresses in*180 + out*34 + 10 200*180 +1*34 +10=36044 so using segwit. actual hard drive bytes are 65kb.. vs legacy would have been 36kb per tx.. meaning less actual hard drive bytes would have been used by that block 230 txs. now imagine it was legacy, and no witness scale factor and the legacy cap was 2.3mb(to keep the block the same hard drive bytes used limit as the block exampled).. more than 230 tx's would have fit in now imagine 4mb legacy cap without the segwit witness scale factor to make the 4mb weight fully utilisable. even more transactions would have fit into a block.. it aint rocket science
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I am talking about keeping the data on my harddrive. Instead of two copies before the fork, use only one.
you mean one copy of the chain upto block 478558 then a btc chain of 478559->ongoing and a bch chain of 478559-556767 then a bch chain of 556768->ongoing then a bchsv chain of 556768->ongoing like this: 2009----------------------------------o-----2018 btc | 2009 ----------------------------------o---e-2018 bch | 2009 --------------------------------------e-2018 bchsv instead of this: 2009----------------------------------------2018 btc 2009----------------------------------------2018 bch 2009----------------------------------------2018 bchsv
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as for that block 2.2mb ... but only 230 transactions included.. that there is known as a bloated block as its wasting alot of tx count on heavy transactions.. a very worse case scenario is where a block can be bloated with just 5tx... yep if you cared about bitcoin utility on the bitcoin network. i/you should not be proud of a block using 2.2mb for just 230 or 5tx.. thats the opposite of scaling bitcoin for better utility. what you should be seeking is a case where the old notion of bitcoin allowing upto 7tx/s (4200tx a block) having on average more than 4200tx.. that then would be a time to celebrate a step forward in bitcoin utility.. or more long term more than 600k tx a day threshold being passed. no one should be proud of a 2.2mb block of only 230tx
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firstly i never said 2.1mb was a limit. i said 2.1 was a more realistic utility EG i also said 1.2mb but that does not mean minimum limit. is just the expectant range of average.. obviously blocks can be less and more. but do not expect blocks being 4mb filled expect it more around the 1.2mb-2.1mb area if howevr they removed a wishy washy bit of code called witness scale factor. then more transactions can be utilitised meaning more transactions, better utility and yes actually getting full use of the 4mb weight.
....
the bit about millions of home users running full nodes on outdated pc's and slower internet causing bottlenecks vs just 10k-100k running full nodes using business lines and regularly updated hardware
imagine it took you 2-14 seconds to ask-receive-validate-relay a block imagine your a node with 8 connections (ok for home use internet speeds) node connects to 8 users. and those 8 connect to 8 and so on
8*8*8*8 in 8 second min 56 second max. 4096 nodes have the data
8*8*8*8*8 in 10 second min 70 second max. 32768 nodes have the data
8*8*8*8*8*8 in 12 second min 84 second max. 262144 nodes have the data
8*8*8*8*8*8*8 in 14 second min 94 second max. 2097152 nodes have the data
as you can see it can take upto 1minute and 34 seconds before 2millions people have the data where as: imagine where its more for those with 'unlimited fibre' plans and people that upgrade their computer often(4 year as oppose to 10 years) imagine it took you 2-4 seconds to ask-receive-validate-relay a block
64*64 in 4 second min 8 second max. 4096 nodes have the data
64*64*64 in 6 second min 12 second max. 262144 nodes have the data
as you can see.. home users would take 12-84 seconds to get data to over 200k nodes those with fibre and more modern updated pcs would take 6-12 seconds to get data to over 200k nodes
... and to address the personal attack from doomad. less important, as his noise is usually just insults.. he is a guy that loves the idea of having funds locked up and is promoting other networks. he loves telling people if they are not happy with the plan then just go away....(facepalm) so he truly hates it when people have an opinion that bitcoin utility, scaling and growth should remain on bitcoin. instead his mindset swaying users to give up using bitcoin and transact in other networks. as those other networks are not blockchained, not limited to bitcoin only coin utility.
in short not sorting out bitcoins network issues and swaying people off network. wont really help people to want to use bitcoin or return to the network.. instead they will just prefer to swap to altcoins within LN and then use other coins network...
much like 19th century banking that vaults up gold makes people play with paper promissory notes and when they withdraw they think gold is too heavy so they withdraw silver coins instead... leaving gold(bitcoin) for those that managed to make going back to bitcoin a hassle via bloated blockchain, bottlenecks, high fee's and low txcount
but dont mind doomad. he does not realise this is a discussion forum. so hates it when people discuss things that are not positive for his group of friends. kissing ass and being 100% loyal and hide issues under the rug is what he prefers.. it really causes him to get angry when people are more open and honest to be more critical thinking and looking for real solutions and just speaking out when things are not as they seem/promoted
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with Segwit transactions single block size will rise up to 4 Mb. It's wrong, in fact Segwit introduces a new notion for block size called "weight" and which is limited to 4MB ( Link to the code). To quote the bip-0141 : Blocks are currently limited to 1,000,000 bytes (1MB) total size. We change this restriction as follows:
Block weight is defined as Base size * 3 + Total size. (rationale[3])
Base size is the block size in bytes with the original transaction serialization without any witness-related data, as seen by a non-upgraded node.
Total size is the block size in bytes with transactions serialized as described in BIP144, including base data and witness data.
The new rule is block weight ≤ 4,000,000. In practice, this increases bloc size to ~1.4MB If you want to see Lightning Network developped in the incoming years, you'd probably accept Segwit which resolved the transaction malleability problem thus enabling Lightning Network. the weight is 4mb. correct. but the code is actually 4mb / WITNESS_SCALE_FACTOR(4) to keep the now outdated 1mb existing and limiting real utility. but a bit more hidden so they can pretend and flip flop social drama the 1mb's existance or non existance depending on what agenda/conversation they have. but yes even with 4mb weight. due the to reliance of the still existing 1mb limitation. tx capacity and bytes used is expected to be around 1.2mb-2.1mb realistic utility. even in a situation of everyone using segwit(not gonna happen).. so 4mb is not really a true 4mb limit. (to much wishy washy code)
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Hi all,
I've recently discovered something is quite concerning for me, i.e. with Segwit transactions single block size will rise up to 4 Mb. This would lead to a blockchain increase up to ~200 GB/year, while a normal laptop does not have more than 500 GB.
Right now blockchain is already at 200 GB. In ten years it seems quite unsustainable. Common users will cease to run a full node, only pros and geeks will do that, and we'll never have millions of full nodes in that way.
If bitcoin is peer to peer electronic cash and want to be worldwide, IMHO more than mining centralization and price dumping it's mass adoption of the peer-to-peer network that should be concerned.
If LN will have a great development in the following years, and I hope I will. what about reducing block size back to 1 MB or even lower?
I would like to have explanation and thoughts about a technician.
Thanks in advance.
firstly segwit does not actually offer 4mb true open utility. thats the fake promise of a 2015 scaling debate secondly if your thinking of keeping the same computer for 10 years. then i feel sorry for your computer in regards to future other software from microsoft, apple and any other software available (unrelated to bitcoin) that wont work well on a computer thats over 10 years.(most people upgrade their pc's every 4-6 years on average thirdly having millions of people running a full node would actually cause more of a bottleneck than having ~10k-100k used by merchants that NEED to monitor funds of thousands of people paying them each day. rather than home users that may only get paid once a month. those only getting paid once a month and only wanting to use bitcoin just to buy groceries to be delivered next day, can just use spv wallets. not everyone needs to be a full node and monitor ~2000 tx every 10 minutes if they are only personally involved in 1 tx a day/week if you are a business NEEDING to be monitoring more than just a couple addresses. then you probably for other business purposes have your computers on a 4 year tax deductibles set-up where you replace equipment. and you probably hav a business internet plan. rather than a home user plan .. lastly LN is a separate network to be used for multiple coins. meaning it will require once established properly. masternodes that monitor multiple chains. thus making LN hardware requirements to be a "full node"(factory/hub/watchtower) compared to just using bitcoin and only using a bitcoin node to make transaction on the bitcoin network. or you can just use a cellphone app and not be a full node like 99% of most people
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