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141  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 23, 2019, 07:08:30 AM

There are many holes in your argument. First:

''Any number of ideal rational thinkers faced with the same situation and undergoing similar throes of reasoning agony will necessarily come up with the identical answer eventually'' How is this known?

It is known via logical deduction. If ideal rational thinkers are faced with a symmetrical situation and reasoning alone is the ultimate justification they will reach identical conclusions.

This must be true if reasoning is objective as arithmetic is.


Let's say for a moment that it's true, what does it matter for us? Humans cannot be ideal rational thinkers and even if somehow someone could, how would we ever know?

I agree we cannot be ideal rational thinkers. Our biological limitations alone guarantee that. But that does not mean we should not try. Indeed it would be idiotic not to try.

C.S. Lewis wrote a nice discussion on this point.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MtTeCyrgjIQ&t=160s

Your arguments fail to really prove anything as they offer 0 evidence of anything that it's claimed there.

Not sure I am following you here. My arguments are simple logic that anyone is capable of following. What evidence are you looking for?

What a subtle way to tell him he's not human.     Cool

Ha ha I doubt the subtlety was intentional but that was funny.
142  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 22, 2019, 01:46:57 AM

First define God. Then go from there.

Embrace God? What are you talking about?  You make no sense.

It is like me saying embrace Goo Goo.

You seem to have forgotten our earlier conversations. We have previously discussed in some depth how one can define God to the best of our ability given our limited perspectives. I would refer you back to those prior conversations. Or if you wish you can review the conversation I had with Astargath on the same topic here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24470502#msg24470502

I have laid out a logical argument and you apparently are either unable to comprehend it or you understand it and cannot refute and are thus prevaricating. I am a busy man and have no interest in forum games. My time is limited so if you lack the ability to understand you lack the ability to understand and if you are simply playing dumb for the fun of it then we are also both wasting our time. Regardless I have shared what I wanted to share on the topic and the time has come for me return to work so I will give you the final word to inspire us all with your wisdom.

Edit: I find it sad that you entirely ignored the actual argument I was making in my post on Multiverse Wide Cooperation no engagement on the concept of superrationality no argument at all really just utter blindness and repeated attempts to change the subject. You will never see past your preconceived notions if you refuse to think.
143  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 09:00:07 PM
 
Rational thinking is objective. Problem is that very few people can stay objective.

For example, faced with no evidence in the existence of the supernatural, some people “deduce” that it might exist, yourself included.

Logical, objective conclusion should have been “we cannot say that the supernatural does exist in lieu of any evidence”. PERIOD.

To help us stay objective we have developed the scientific method.  It is the best epistemic tool we have.

You should use it to stay objective.

Yes we should stay objective. Objectively demands embracing a worldview that will make maximum universal cooperation possible.

That in turns requires embracing God and the principle of love your neighbor as yourself.

This belief honestly followed allows for unconditional love and solves the Platonia Dilemma as well as any other similar cooperation and coordination problems. It will in the long run make everyone all superrationally cooperating life better off.

We have discussed the rationality of God in depth in our discussion here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg36246134#msg36246134

We did not agree then and won’t now.

You should take great care and fully think through the logic and it’s implications. You are a new consciousness in a very old universe. These brief moments of learning our biological time on this earth is our moment to signal to the universe what we truly are.

This decision may have much more importance then you think. Indeed if the religious are correct it is the most important choice you will ever make.
144  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 07:27:14 PM
As a philosophical matter it seems nice but not as science. A logical truth is 100% true in all situations, right? That can exist, the problem is, how can you know that? Have you been in all of those possible situations and if you haven't, how can you claim it's a logical truth?

Here is what the AI researcher Douglas Hofstadter wrote on the topic. The answer to your question is in the realization that reasoning is not subjective.

“You might feel that each person is completely unique and therefore that no one can be relied on as a predictor of how other people will act, especially in an intensely dilemmatic situation. There is more to the story, however.

Any number of ideal rational thinkers faced with the same situation and undergoing similar throes of reasoning agony will necessarily come up with the identical answer eventually, so long as reasoning alone is the ultimate justification for their conclusion. Otherwise reasoning would be subjective, not objective as arithmetic is. A conclusion reached by reasoning would be a matter of preference, not of necessity. Now some people may believe this of reasoning, but rational thinkers understand that a valid argument must be universally compelling, otherwise it is simply not a valid argument.

If you’ll grant this, then you are 90% of the way. All you need ask now is which world is better for the individual rational thinker: (one with thinkers all cooperating or all defecting)
...
Since I am typical, cooperating must be preferred by all rational thinkers. So I’ll cooperate.” Another way of stating it, making it sound weirder, is this: “If I choose cooperation, then everyone will choose cooperation.”
...
“We live in a world filled with opposing belief systems so similar as to be nearly interchangeable, yet whose adherents are blind to that symmetry. This description applies not only to myriad small, conflicts in the world but also to the colossal... Yet the recognition of symmetry - in short, the sanity - has not yet come. In fact, the insanity seems only to grow, rather than be supplanted by sanity. What has an intelligent species like our own done to get itself into this horrible dilemma? What can it do to get itself out? Are we all helpless as we watch this spectacle unfold, or does the answer lie, for each one of us, in recognition of our own typicality, and in small steps taken on an individual level toward sanity?”
...
“To many people, this sounds like a belief in voodoo or sympathetic magic, a vision of a universe permeated by tenuous threads of synchronicity, conveying thoughts from mind to mind like pneumatic tubes carrying messages across Paris, and making people resonate to a secret harmony. Nothing could be further from the truth. This solution depends in no way on telepathy or bizarre forms of causality. It’s just that the statement “I’ll choose C and then everyone will”, though entirely correct, is somewhat misleadingly phrased. It involves the word “choice”, which is incompatible with the compelling quality of logic. Schoolchildren do not choose what 507 divided by 13 is; they figure it out. Analogously, my letter really did not allow choice; it demanded reasoning. Thus, a better way to phrase the “voodoo” statement would be this: “If reasoning guides me to say C, then, as I am no different from anyone else as far as rational thinking is concerned, it will guide everyone to say C.””
145  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 05:10:54 PM

''are logically true'' Can you explain further what logically true means?

This will answer your question.

Logical truth
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth

But it doesn't say anything about how to determine whether something is a logical truth or not... how are you ever going to know that your logical truth is actually a logical truth? You simply cannot test it in ''all situations''

You are correct that it is very difficult to think of universally accepted ideas about what the generic properties of logical truths are or should be.

If you want to understand how it can potentially be done you have to dive into the topic at a far deeper level then the simplified summary I linked above.

This would probably be a good place to start if you have an interest but fair warning it is challenging and dry reading.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logical-truth/
146  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 04:10:02 PM

Let me try again. Your “truth” is based on mythological fiction.

BTW, we have codified what is an acceptable behavior in our Criminal Code.  Believe it. LOL.

Sigh is that really the depth of your analysis here?

I lay out and describe a logical foundation that enables universe wide cooperation and your response is we don’t need that we have a wonderful criminal justice system?

I describe how that same protocol allows cooperation in otherwise unwinnable scenarios such as the hypothetical Platonia dilemma and your reply is that you don’t reply to Nigerian lottery emails?

Your hatred of all things Biblical is blinding your ability to reason.
147  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 03:45:54 PM

''are logically true'' Can you explain further what logically true means?

This will answer your question.

Logical truth
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_truth
148  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 21, 2019, 05:42:15 AM

Except that there is absolutely no historical evidence that this mythological Jesus person ever existed.

And you base your “truth” on this fact, how gullible can you be?

The quality of your replies have been declining lately. This one in particular was especially poor.

What I have demonstrated above is that the quoted remarks of Jesus in Matthew 22 are logically true. This truth is derived from logic and does not depend in any way on an argument from authority Biblical or otherwise.

Discussions of the historical evidence of Jesus are interesting I am sure but entirely unrelated to what I wrote.
149  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 20, 2019, 09:32:46 PM
Multiverse Wide Cooperation

Multiverse Wide Cooperation via Correlated Decision Making.
https://foundational-research.org/files/Multiverse-wide-Cooperation-via-Correlated-Decision-Making.pdf
Quote from: Caster Oesterheld
Superrationality is a special application of non-causal decision theories – that is, theories of rational decision making that not only take the causal implications of an action into account but also other information that making this decision would give us. In the case of superrationality, that information is always about the other agents.

Importantly, superrationality itself falls under this general rule. That is, if you do something for superrationality-related reasons, then this does not tell you anything about how people who do not accept superrationality would behave. As a trivial example, consider playing a donation game against 19 people whom you all know to make fun of superrationality whenever the opportunity avails itself. Attempting to superrationally cooperate with those people seems rather fruitless.

Superrational cooperation requires no reciprocity. That is, none of the agents who benefit from our cooperation have to benefit us. Recall the basic argument for superrationality as based on non-causal decision theories: given that we are friendly, it is more probable that other agents facing similar choices will be friendly toward us and our values. Crucially, this argument does not require that the agents whose choices we acausally affect are the same as those who benefit from our own friendliness.

Only helping superrational cooperators helps you superrationally. Cooperation usually excludes agents who are known to be unable to reciprocate. Yet superrationality does allow for cooperation with non-reciprocating agents if helping them makes it more likely that other agents help us. There is, however, at least one limitation on the set of our beneficiaries that comes without negative side-effects. We can exclude from superrational cooperation all agents who do not cooperate superrationally at all. After all, every superrational cooperator knows that this exclusion will not affect her, and the exclusion appears to be symmetrical among all superrational agents. That is, it makes it more likely that other superrational cooperators make the same choice (rather than incurring some other limitation that excludes us).

What kind of agents can join multiverse-wide superrational cooperation (MSR) at all? In particular, what sorts of values do they need to have, independent of whether or how many such agents or value systems actually exist in the multiverse? We already know that only helping superrational or correlated agents benefits us. However, the values of the superrationalists must also be open to the opportunity of gains from compromise.

In some cases, it will not be in our power to help other value systems at all. Since any will to cooperate with these agents cannot possibly be action-guiding, we do not have to help them. Other agents in the universe may have other resources available to them and thus choose to behave in a friendly way toward these values. If, on the other hand, agents know that nobody else can help them to achieve their goals, multiverse-wide superrational cooperation (in particular, any version of it in which they just give resources away) becomes less attractive to them. One example of a value system that we cannot help is the following version of speciesism:
...
The Namuh-centrists. One day, scientists inform you about a highly intelligent species of extraterrestrials known as “Namuhs”. Like us, the Namuhs have built a flourishing civilization with art, trade, science, language, humor, philosophy (including advanced decision theory research), and so on. However, the Namuhs do not live in our universe, but in a distant part of the multiverse, completely inaccessible to us. In fact, they could not even exist in our part of the multiverse, as their bodies require slightly different laws of physics to function. Knowing about superrational cooperation, you hasten to ask whether they have thought about problems analogous to Newcomb’s problem and the donation games between similar agents. A trustworthy scientist explains that their minds are indeed prone to thinking about such topics – much more so than those of humans, in fact! Understandably thrilled, you ask what values the Namuhs have, and specifically what values are held by those who have thought about acausal cooperation. The scientist then informs you that all Namuhs are very narrowly focused on their own species. They are Namuh-centrists who do not care one bit about anything that does not involve fellow Namuhs. For example, they shrug at the thought of non-Namuh suffering, the flourishing of non-Namuh civilizations, or non-Namuh well-being. In fact, they are so strict that they do not even care about simulated Namuhs or other approximations.

Learning about their values, you may be disappointed. There is nothing that you can do to help them and it is therefore irrelevant whether they use a decision theory similar to yours or not.

(They have adopted a value system incompatible with larger scale superrational cooperation)

Which moral views correlate with superrationality?

The Idea of God
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042814064088
Quote from: Alexandru Petrescu

The issue of existence and justification of the Supreme Being is constantly approached by Immanuel Kant in his entire work. For Kant, the ultimate goal of the nature created by God is man as a moral being: the world was created according to man's moral needs. This is why it is said that, after Kant, teleology leads to a moral theology, one that is not about the possibility of proving rationally God's existence but which is about stating that moral life is possible only if God exists. Under these circumstances, though the “idea of God” is presupposed in most Kantian works, we insist, below, particularly on what is debated when appealing to practical reason. In the theoretical philosophy of the Critique of Pure Reason, the idea of God as Unconditioned, as a being that is absolutely necessary, is seen as a transcendental ideal determined through an idea as a prototype of perfection necessary to everything that is contingent and determined in our sensible world: what we can do to conciliate sensible experience with the Absolute Being is to presuppose an extra-phenomenal reality designated as transcendental object: we presuppose its existence but we cannot get to know it. Later, in Critique of Practical Reason, God is postulated (together with soul's immortality) as a condition of the supreme value of moral life, the Sovereign Good (union of virtue with happiness). Since in the sensible world moral conduct does not warrant proportional happiness, the virtuous ones has strong reasons to believe in the reparatory intervention of a superior power: God, as moral ideal and warranty of moral order. “Morality leads, inevitably, to religion, through which it (morality) extends over a moral Lawgiver”

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


The first command allows for the creation of universe wide not species specific morality. The second allows for superrational cooperation and the greatest good for all.

Jesus shared absolute truth here with the world. The depth of that truth is often poorly understood.

See: Music that Illuminates the Human Condition for more.
150  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 16, 2019, 04:58:34 PM
I think one reason the irreligious have less children is they don't want to risk having children that they'd later find out they can't raise, especially since they don't believe there is a god to help them through it all. They are also more likely to be pro-abortion and birth control.

With regards to "overall" health, I think it boils down to the social network. Religion provide an extra set of network in addition to friends made from school, work, etc. There's more people to hold you accountable when you say stuff like "I'm gonna quit smoking". Also some religions have dietary restrictions (for example banning alcohol or coffee) and some traditionally have fasting periods (Ramadan, Lent, "vegan Fridays") whose effects might add up in the long run.

All correct points but I would suggest that you need to go beyond this analysis and look into what is it about the social network that promotes health. Clearly their can be unhealthy social networks that make their participants worse off. It depends on what the purpose and ultimate function of the network is.

Networks that promote cooperation towards a positive end are best. Networks the maximize cooperation and minimize defection are best.  

So what organizing frameworks achieves these goals? I have my own views on the matter as i have highlighted immediately above.
151  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 16, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
But is there really such thing as a selfless act because you are helping others to feel better about yourself?  So isn't it ultimately about yourself.

Motivation matters.

Helping others to feel better about yourself is indeed not a selfless act.
Helping others because they are fellow children of God and that is just what you do is.

152  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 15, 2019, 06:15:13 PM
Being selfless means you care more about others than yourself. The change can only come from within. Study Eastern philosophies, learn more about human animals.

I am afraid your Bronze Age, psychopathic maniac will not help you to achieve any form of enlightenment.

I agree that change can only come from within.
We clearly disagree about God.

Have a nice afternoon af_newbie
153  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 15, 2019, 05:35:49 PM
You don’t need external God to be a good person.

Learn biology, human psychology, do not cause harm to sentient life, eventually you will become selfless.

A selfless individual will choose the winning solution to the Platonia delemma.
Will your “good person”? The more selfless the population the greater the potential payoff for a cheat.

This is especially true as the potential rewards for cheating climb.

You assume that if we learn biology, human psychology, and try not to cause harm to sentient life, we will become selfless. The latter does not follow from the former. To be truly selfless we must ground our identity in something other then ourselves or our posterity. We must live for something other then ourselves. The broader that choice of purpose is the better. God is the broadest possible choice and the only one that allows for the formation of true selflessness.

I do not expect us to see eye to eye on this issue. However, once you understand this point you understand why acceptance and faith in God is more important to salvation then prior sins and good deeds.
154  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 15, 2019, 05:08:56 AM
Even under these conditions, you have very slim chances of winning.

I would assume more than 5% of people are greedy, even among rational thinkers there will greedy a-holes who would act against their rational thinking, and send the telegraph with their name.

Waste of time either way.  You don’t enter, you lose.  You enter, you almost certainly lose as there will more than one person who sent the telegraph.

Like I said, a waste of my time.

Even in the most communist societies you will find that more than 5% of the population is greedy and would take free stuff without hesitation.

If you send these letters to the very top one percenters, you might change the odds, but with the general population there is no way to win this game, so why bother playing.

Indeed your are correct no one will win the contest. But that is not because the game cannot be won but because rational action alone is insufficient to win it. Human beings have great difficulty with superrationality. We need to be selfless which is not something humans are very good at.

It is rational to always try and claim the prize. The cost is near zero and the potential reward very large. You need to be something better then rational to win this particular game. Indeed in the long run for games of this nature everyone must be superrational if you want to win. As you said playing the game with traditional rational actors make cooperation impossible. You can't win.

So how do we make someone superrational where there is always short term profits from defection. The only way I am aware of is to truly and totally ground oneself in the infinite. Anonymint stated it well which is why I quoted his comments on the matter.

Quote from: anonymint
We can instead choose to believe in superrational God that loves us and emulate that ideal, thus applying superrational sacrifice to our motivation and decisions. IOW, that everything is motivated by what is best for the other person, not for ourselves. In that case, there are no Prisoner’s dilemmas. The key is recognizing that only selflessness is compatible with unconditional love. And that the choice of a belief (and love) in the unfalsifiable God is a choice that one makes because our existence is but an illusion of our choice in the multiverse. Consciousness is but what we choose it to be. Nihilism will illogically reject this as unfounded, and instead choose no foundation at all, no purpose, no life. Love in the form of selflessness is the only form of life. That is what Jesus came to exemplify. All those who claim that such unfounded belief makes people vulnerable to insane collective actions (e.g. the Inquisition) fail to understand that was a reversion from unconditional love to animalism, Nihilism and Prisoner’s dilemmas, i.e. that was not true Christianity.

Superrationality itself is just a formalization of Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. The categorical imperative is in turn is a valiant but incomplete attempt to codify much older wisdom into a logical framework. Matthew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Easy to say very difficult to live by. See: Superrationality and the Infinite for more.
  
You want to win the game you have to change and not just yourself but eventually everyone because winning requires everyone playing to be better then simple rational actors.
155  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 15, 2019, 12:19:49 AM

I would ignore the letter just like I ignore all the Nigerian lottery emails.

Nobody gives that kind of money. You have to be super gullible not superrational to participate in such a game.

Assume you know with certainty the contest is real the money and giveaway are real and the terms of the contest will be honored. Its been in the news and the judges are third parties. Furthermore the letter can be verified to have come from the contest.

Obviously, no one would respond to a Nigerian lottery email that is not the point of this exercise.  
156  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 14, 2019, 07:37:51 PM
Superrationality is not possible because no two brains are the same.

IQ, emotional development, personal experiences, religious or political indoctrination influences one’s thinking process.  You are a prime example.

With the same input, two “rational” individuals will deduce a diametrically different result.

Freethinking is the best you can do to remove the cultural, political and religious influences.

That is why the actors must be superrational and not rational. Brains can be very different but still superrational. Failure to completely understand the perspective and needs of of others does indeed create inefficiency. This can be mitigated by communication or if that is not possible by best estimates and modeling of perspectives.

Your current "rational" perspective places you at risk for suboptimal outcomes trapping you in non-cooperative scenarios that can be avoided.

Let me give you an example to help demonstrate this. It is called the Platonia Dilemma and was shared originally by Douglas Hofstader in Scientific American June 1983.

"One fine day, out of the blue, you get a letter from S. N. Platonia, well-known Oklahoma oil trillionaire, mentioning that twenty leading rational thinkers have been selected to participate in a little game. “You are one of them!” it says. “Each of you has a chance at winning one billion dollars, put up by the Platonia Institute for the Study of Human Irrationality. Here’s how. If you wish, you may send a telegram with just your name on it to the Platonia Institute in downtown Frogville, Oklahoma (pop. 2). You may reverse the charges. If you reply within 48 hours, the billion is yours - unless there are two or more replies, in which case the prize is awarded to no one. And if no one replies, nothing will be awarded to anyone.”

You have no way of knowing who the other nineteen participants are; indeed, in its letter, the Platonia Institute states that the entire offer will be rescinded if it is detected that any attempt whatsoever has been made by any participant to discover the identity of, or to establish contact with, any other participant. Moreover, it is a condition that the winner (if there is one) must agree in writing not to share the prize money with any other participant at any time in the future. This is to squelch any thoughts of cooperation, either before or after the prize is given out."

The prize is real and the award judges honest and unbribable. What is the rational answer to this riddle af_newbie? What would you do? The superrational answer is quite simple and trivial. I saw it instantly and indeed later in the article Hofstader wrote the exact same solution in his article. Can you see it?  

I actually expected something nice, instead its the same bullshit, essentially he found out what, faith? Lol, how the fuck is that an eureka moment...

Yes he did and I am happy for him. You would not understand because you are lost.

Edit: The solution to the Platonia Dilemma is below.

Solution to the Platonia Dilemma:
(By Douglas Hofstadter)

"And what about the Platonia Dilemma? There, two things are very clear: (1) if you decide not to send a telegram, your chances of winning are zero; (2) if everyone sends a telegram, your chances of winning are zero. If you believe that what you choose will be the same as what everyone else chooses because you are all superrational, then neither of these alternatives is very appealing. With dice, however, a new option presents itself to roll a die with probability p of coming up “good” and then to send in your name if and only if “good” comes up.

Now imagine twenty people all doing this, and figure out what value of p maximizes the likelihood of exactly one person getting the go-ahead. It turns out that it is p=120, or more generally, p=1N where N is the number of participants. In the limit where N approaches infinity, the chance that exactly one person will get the go-ahead is 1e, which is just under 37%. With twenty superrational players all throwing icosahedral dice, the chance that you will come up the big winner is very close to 120e, which is a little below 2%. That’s not at all bad! Certainly it’s a lot better than 0%.

The objection many people raise is: “What if my roll comes up bad? Then why shouldn’t I send in my name anyway? After all, if I fail to, I’ll have no chance whatsoever of winning. I’m no better off than if I had never rolled my die and had just voluntarily withdrawn!” This objection seems overwhelming at first, but actually it is fallacious, being based on a misrepresentation of the meaning of “making a decision”. A genuine decision to abide by the throw of a die means that you really must abide by the throw of the die; if under certain circumstances you ignore the die and do something else, then you never made the decision you claimed to have made. Your decision is revealed by your actions, not by your words before acting!"

If you came up with this solution and would genuinely do it in this situation you are to some degree a superrational thinker.
157  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 14, 2019, 05:15:30 PM
And here is a recent communication from Anonymint.

I don’t know with certainty what led to his change of heart but I suspect that he was influenced in part by our discussion and by C.S. Lewis and his excellent analysis of the natural end of purely rational thinking. See: The Abolition of Man

Quote from: Anonymint
Rationality fails in Prisoner’s dilemmas. Superrationality doesn’t.

I finally figured this out! I am going to explain something that I been trying to figure out my entire life and finally had that eureka moment! I have to credit CoinCube for leading me in the correct direction. But he was not able to articulate the following, which is critical to understanding superrationality. Note this ties into what consciousness and existence really means!

1. Science will never be able to falsify existence. If anyone needs me to explain why, I will later.

2. We have a choice, either we can choose that there is no superrationality and only rationality. In which case, there is no unconditional love because of Prisoner’s dilemmas. And a world fraught with fighting, pain and misery.

3. We can instead choose to believe in superrational God that loves us and emulate that ideal, thus applying superrational sacrifice to our motivation and decisions. IOW, that everything is motivated by what is best for the other person, not for ourselves. In that case, there are no Prisoner’s dilemmas. The key is recognizing that only selflessness is compatible with unconditional love. And that the choice of a belief (and love) in the unfalsifiable God is a choice that one makes because our existence is but an illusion of our choice in the multiverse. Consciousness is but what we choose it to be. Nihilism will illogically reject this as unfounded, and instead choose no foundation at all, no purpose, no life. Love in the form of selflessness is the only form of life. That is what Jesus came to exemplify. All those who claim that such unfounded belief makes people vulnerable to insane collective actions (e.g. the Inquisition) fail to understand that was a reversion from unconditional love to animalism, Nihilism and Prisoner’s dilemmas, i.e. that was not true Christianity.

4. Then if #3 there is no selfishness, no infinite debts for infinite wants, no politics. Obviously we will not entirely achieve that ideal on Earth, but it is a competition to see who can be the most selfless. My grandfather was the most selfless person I have ever known so far. Jesus and love (and candy) was his reason for living.

5. Collectivism and taking from others to give infinite wants to others is the antithesis of selfless. It is entitlement and “give me what is my fair share”, which is a Prisoner’s dilemma. For example, when everyone works as hard as they can, and takes only the minimum that they need, there’s abundance.
158  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: July 14, 2019, 05:14:07 PM
I wanted to share a conversation I had with Anonymint on the topic of superrationality.

We had discussed this concept earlier as I posted upthread. See: Superrationality and the Infinite .

The discussion has since continued via messages.

Quote from: CoinCube
Quote from: Anonymint
Quote from: CoinCube
Quote from: Anonymint

Thanks for the link. My writing was much better then. And your retort was something that does not exist. Some wishful thinking you invented a term for it “superrationality”.

Some of us would prefer on not repeating the same delusions and instead roll up our sleeves and analyze the actual game theory involved with for example gender relations being so fundamental that is one of the main topics covered in Genesis (Eve, Oman, etc).

We are moving into a new epoch where land and territory is no longer the main asset of a civilization. How does our organization of gender relations change? Especially now with gender selection under control of the males.

There is no way that society can keep the technology of gender selection regulated. Impossible. It is not as sophisticated as producing nuclear bombs.

The entire basis for superrationality is unsupported. Essentially it would be equivalent to violating the Laws of Thermodynamics, because you would demand that the distribution of uncertainty does not trend to maximum and that time is reversible. That we live in a static universe where there is no past and future.

Prisoner’s dilemmas exist because omniscience must not be possible otherwise the above.

Apology my lapse. Should have realized that and made that retort when you first raised the point.

Superrationality is not a term I invented.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality

You are correct that it is not currently a mainstream part of game theory. But then again there is nothing sacrosanct about current game theory. Game theory is just mathematical model based on a series of assumptions about the modeled actors.

I think we are just going to disagree on this one.

I think you are misunderstanding the logic.
Here is a comment on the subject I came across. Not my words but maybe it will clarify the issue.

From the Wikipedia talk page on Superrationality

“Hofstadter, (the thinker who coined the term superrationality) as far as I know, is the first person to explicitly challenge economic rationality, to call its bluff. He says "This is garbage", and gives a mathematically precise alternative. The use of the pejorative "magical thinking" to refer to superrationality is absurd. There is no magic involved. It is only referred to as magical thinking by those with an irrational attachment to game-theory rationality

Read his book. It's precise enough to know exactly what he's saying, and it has a discussion of probabilistic scenerios, where the optimal probability is determined by the reasoning. It's written for a general audience, so you might not like it very much, but it's precise...Maybe superrationality is an old idea.
But from your comments, I get the feeling that you don't appreciate the logic of superrationality: Hofstadter doesn't engage in magical thinking. He does not assume that his decision will influence another person's decision in any causal way. That's impossible. What he assumes is that the other person already is superrational, so that his decision is going to be perfectly correlated with Hofstadter's in a symmetric situation, and he assumes that both he and his opponent take this into account before maximizing their utility. This is not magical, because correlation does not imply causation. It's a circular definition of a decision algorithm that only looks magical if you already believe (in the religious sense) in economic rationality. Then any deviation from defection looks irrational, and you can't be persuaded otherwise because economic rationality is self-consistent.

But Hofstadter points out that superrationality is equally self-consistent, so that the prisoner's dilemma is fundamentally an ill-posed problem, with several consistent answers. This leaves him with a free choice of algorithm. He chooses superrationality because it seems to his intuition to be correct, and he urges his readers to do so too, with mixed results.”


That is nonsense. If you know everyone is superrational, then you defect, because you get $20 guaranteed instead of possibly only $1.

It is ostensibly some unsupported nonsense from some philosophical ramblings that have not been vetted by any actual mathematical model.

Yeah I will disagree with nonsense.

You are not understanding the issue and that’s ok.

I will leave you with the words of the man himself who coined the term.
 
My feeling is that the concept of superrationality is one whose truth will come to dominate among intelligent beings in the universe simply because its adherents will survive certain kinds of situations where its opponents will perish. Let’s wait a few spins of the galaxy and see. After all, healthy logic is whatever remains after evolution’s merciless pruning.

Douglas Hofstadter, Metamagical Themas: Questing For The Essence Of Mind And Pattern

I agree with Mr. Hofstafter.

For now you are probably just have to add Mr. Hofstafter along with C.S Lewis and myself to your internal list of irrational illogical individuals. Quite the list you are drawing up.

Best Wishes
159  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? on: May 20, 2019, 09:10:46 AM

I think science outpaced our linguistic development.

We humans will never be able to escape our neurophysiologically hardwired,  linguistic meaning making mechanisms - it is rooted to the core of our being. But science has indeed prodded religious linguistics as a superficial kind, a kind that needed a rude awakening, a disillusionment if you will. Yes, it is through the applied methodology of science that religious members became disappointed, dissatisfied  and utterly discontented with the cheap spells that their various sects have so lavishly kept casting on them to keep the poor parishioners illusioned  and falsely enchanted throughout the entirety of their miserable lives.

But you are right, we need new linguistic jargon that will unleash the exploring minds of humans, but keep us grounded in the materialistic reality, through which science has granted us a much fuller, clearer (disenchanted) and sense driven understanding.

Ok one last post before I go because this is so earily similar to something I just read. Uncle Screwtape from the the book by C.S. Lewis would absolutely agree with you here dippididodaddy.

“Jargon, not argument, is your best ally in keeping him from the Church. Don't waste time trying to make him think that materialism is true! Make him think it is strong, or stark, or courageous--that it is the philosophy of the future. That's the sort of thing he cares about.
The trouble about argument is that it moves the whole struggle on to the Enemy's own ground. He can argue too; whereas in really practical propaganda of the kind I am suggesting He has been shown for centuries to be greatly the inferior of Our Father Below. By the very act of arguing, you awake the patient's reason; and once it is awake, who can foresee the result?

Even if a particular train of thought can be twisted so as to end in our favor, you will find that you have been strengthening in your patient the fatal habit of attending to universal issues and withdrawing his attention from the stream of immediate sense experiences. Your business is to fix his attention on the stream. Teach him to call it "real life" and don't let him ask what he means by "real."” - Uncle Screwtape


The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MWVMKKY3A&
160  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? on: May 19, 2019, 05:58:35 PM

Do we know anything or are we just supposed to trust the book?

Empiric knowledge can take us pretty far.

We can use such knowledge to strip away and examine the various layers of our beliefs like so many layers of an onion. Eventually, however, we reach a point were that type of reduction can go no further.

At that point we transition into a different and more fundamental frame of reference. This area has many names. It has been called metaphysics, a priori, faith, religion. The name is not particularly important. The consequences of the decisions made at this fundamental level, however, are profound for they ultimately define who and what we are.

Materialism is one such choice. It is a common metaphysical trap of our era and difficult to escape once embraced.

The "evidence" trap: Why so many modern people are 'stuck' in materialism
https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-evidence-trap-why-so-many-modern.html?m=1

The Book is a blueprint. The choice we make as individuals is like visualizing a completed structure from a set of plans and then deciding if that is what we are going to be a part of. Its a decision made ultimately with the heart too not just the intellect. Most important choices are.

The process can be difficult due to our limited perspectives and the signal loss that occurs due to the vast distance between us and the societies of the ancient past. Humanity is a terrible medium to transmit information through.

When deciding whether or not to trust it helps to focus first on the areas least susceptible to signal loss. The parables are nearly timeless and the closest part of the Bible to the source of Christianity. There are not very many of them and I recommend anyone seriously considering the topic to examine them all both with their heart and their reason.

The Parables
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/parables-of-jesus/

It has been a pleasure discussing these topics with you all. I have greatly enjoyed the back and forth. I am now called elsewhere and will disengage. I am starting a new business that will monopolize my time so this will be my last post for a while on Bitcoin Talk. I wish you all well on your individual journeys.

Goodluck and Godspeed.
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