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1041  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 27, 2017, 02:31:32 PM

Are you fucking kidding me?  Are you going to bring the Mass Murder card?  I ask you how many people had to die to convert nations on ALL continents to Christianity.  In North America, Christians slaughtered the natives, almost wipe them out completely.  What did the Spaniards do in South and Central America?  Drink wine and dance? What did your buddy Pope, Mussolini and Hitler do?  Go to church on Sunday, that is it?

Mass Murder?  Please stop this shit.  You have never been to been to Baptist Christian churches.  Checkout Westboro...More guys like them and you would have a mayhem in the US.
Mass murder?  These guys just cannot wait....

Your Bible has many examples of mass murder and genocides.


There is no doubt that the Europeans especially the Spanish did some horrible things in the new world. The worst of that evil came from a desire for conquest, gold, though some came from religion.

Religion can certainly produce evil.

Quote from: Gregory Koukl
It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.[1]

Despite these evils for historical accuracy it was diseases especially smallpox not violence that killed 90% of Native Americans in the new world. Though this fact should not detract from the horrible things that were done to the Native Americans who survived the diseases.

Also Hitler was not Christian. He said many thing during his rule to further his plans and limit opposition but his long term plan was to destroy German Christianity.

See:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1566146.msg16015607#msg16015607

I looked up the Westboro group you mentioned and I agree as you said more guys like them and you would have a mayhem in the US. Evil can be done in the name of religion. Humans have free will and often choose poorly either out of ignorance or vice.

1042  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 26, 2017, 06:38:11 PM
Religion is nothing but a disciplinary way, it shows the way how you behave and how you maintain your Life. If you follow the instructions of any religion then you can lead a peaceful life. Discipline can bring your good health. So regular life is the way of making good health.
So there is a relationship between religion and good health.

If taken in moderation.  Too much of it, and you become paranoid, schizophrenic, serial or mass murderer.

Regardless, it is a very dangerous poison IMHO.  Just like alcohol or drugs, religious ideology can fuck up your thinking.


I agree. Too much religion has a negative impact on the mental, and over time and on the person's physical health.

The two of you may benefit from giving this issue some more thought.

Atheism and Mass Murder
http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder
Quote
Concerning atheism and mass murder, Christian apologist Gregory Koukl wrote that "the assertion is that religion has caused most of the killing and bloodshed in the world. There are people who make accusations and assertions that are empirically false. This is one of them."[1] Koukl details the number of people killed in various events involving theism and compares them to the much higher tens of millions of people killed under atheistic communist regimes, in which militant atheism served as the official doctrine of the state.[1]

Communist regimes killed 60 million in the 20th century through genocide, according to Le Monde, more than 100 million people[2] according to The Black Book of Communism (Courtois, Stéphane, et al., 1997).[3] and according to Cleon Skousen[4] in his best-selling book The Naked Communist.[5]

It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives.[6] Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.[7]

The Reign of Terror of the French Revolution established a state which was anti-Roman Catholicism/Christian in nature [8] (anti-clerical deism and anti-religious atheism during the Enlightenment played a significant role in the French Revolution[9][10]), with the official ideology being the Cult of Reason; during this time thousands of believers were suppressed and executed by the guillotine.[11] Although Communism is one of the most well-known cases of atheism's ties to mass murder, the French Revolution and subsequent Reign of Terror, inspired by the works of Diderot, Voltaire, Sade, and Rousseau, managed to commit similar persecutions and exterminations of religious people and promote secularism and militant atheism. Official numbers indicate that 300,000 Frenchmen died during Robespierre's Reign of Terror, 297,000 of which were of middle-class or low-class.[12] Of the amount murdered via the guillotine, only 8% had been of the aristocratic class, with over 30% being from the peasant class.[13]

One of the most well known cases of mass murder during the French Revolution was the genocide at Vendée, which has yet to be officially recognized as genocide. Some estimates indicated that Robespierre and the Jacobins planned to massacre well over 15,000,000 Frenchmen,[12] and that he also intended to commit genocide against the Alsace region of France due to their German-speaking populace.[13] Besides the guillotine, the French Revolution also resulted in various other deaths, including trampling children with horses, burning people in ovens, "Republican Marriages" (which involved stripping people naked, tying them together to a log in a suggestive fashion, and then putting them into the water to drown. In the event that there wasn't enough people of both sexes, they also resorted to "tying the knot" in a homosexual manner), cutting recently raped girls in half after tying them to a tree, crushing pregnant women under wine pressers, cutting up pregnant women and using bayonets to stab the fetus inside before leaving her to die, "catching" infants thrown from a balcony with their bayonets, and using shotguns to ensure people bled out to death.[13]

The aforementioned actions during the French Revolution, especially the Reign of Terror in 1793, would also inspire Karl Marx with the Communist manifesto, specifically telling Frederick Engels in correspondences to each other: “There is only one way of shortening, simplifying, and concentrating the bloodthirsty death-throes of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new—revolutionary terror. . . . [...] Once we are at the helm, we shall be obliged to reenact the year 1793. [...] We are pitiless and we ask no pity from you. When our time comes, we shall not conceal terrorism with hypocritical phrases. . . The vengeance of the people will break forth with such ferocity that not even the year 1793 enables us to envisage it...”[14]

Koukl summarized by stating:

“  It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God.[1]  ” 

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Nobel Prize winner Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was asked to account for the great tragedies that occurred under the brutal communist regime he and fellow citizens suffered under.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn offered the following explanation:

“  Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.'
Since then I have spend well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: 'Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.' [15]
1043  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 26, 2017, 01:43:14 PM

It is not easy to 'finish' the Bible when you passages like these:

OLD TESTAMENT:

Kings 6:29 - cannibalism
Judges 11:29-40 - human sacrifice
Leviticus 25:44 - slavery
Deuteronomy 13:12-15 - genocide
Leviticus 10:6 - you will die if you rip your clothes
Leviticus 19:19 - breeding cattle is illegal
Leviticus 21 - some bat crazy rules for priests, do not fuck young boys should be somewhere there....
Leviticus 20:10 - killing of adulterers
Leviticus 20:13 - killing of gays
Leviticus 20:9 - killing children who dishonor mother or father
Leviticus 24:16 - stoning people if they say God's name
Deuteronomy 28:53 - more cannibalism
Genesis 19:8 - prostituting your virgin daughters
Leviticus 19:19 - not mixing two kinds of material for clothing :-)
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - more stoning for not being a virgin
Exodus 31:14-15 - killing of people who work on Sabbath
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 - cutting off hands
Deuteronomy 23:1 - you'll not go to heaven if your testicles are damaged
Leviticus 19:27 - no haircuts of any kind
Leviticus 19:28 - no tattoos, or else
Leviticus 11:7-8 - eating pork is forbidden

NEW TESTAMENT (written thousands of years after the OLD testament):

Matthew 5:29 - plucking out eyes
Matthew 5:30 - cutting off hands
Matthew 10:34 - waging wars by a sword
Corinthians 14:34-35 - women should be quiet and obey
Mark 10:11-12 - only marry once otherwise check Leviticus 20:10 for remedy
Luke 19:26-2 - genocide
Romans 1:20-32 - killing sinners
Revelation 2:5 - more killing
Revelation 2:23 - killing children
Psalm 137:9 - killing babies

How can you believe it is a 'word of God' is beyond me.  It is a collection of stories, proverbs, legal punishments and recommendations on how and when to kill people.  If you enjoyed it, you are not well.  You might be a psychopath.  But then again you already knew that.

There is no doubt that the punishments for crimes in the ancient Israeli society were very harsh. It is important to note that these were the rules given to a small tribe of Hebrew exiles who's were at all times very much in danger of being wiped out by their pagan neighbors. Strict social conformity was likely vital for survival at that time. Later rabbinic interpretations in Judaism and the teachings of Jesus in Christianity would allow for much more compassion and leanancy. Nevertheless asking why the punishments were so harsh is a fair and a hard question. Here is one answer.

Why Are Torah Punishments So Harsh?
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1269629/jewish/Why-Are-Torah-Punishments-So-Harsh.htm
Quote from: Rabbi Yehuda

Question:

I know there is an infinite, loving G‑d. It's just that I can't get my head around a few things in the Torah, like death penalties for gays, wizards, and people who curse their parents. Even if these people have erred, couldn't they just be asked to stop or be punished with exile? That's why it's hard to believe that a G‑d who can make a billion galaxies and stars would want us to kill over different beliefs.

Response:

Before answering your question, it's worthwhile to note just how difficult it actually is to impose the death penalty in Jewish law.

First of all, circumstantial evidence won't cut it. You need two impeccable witnesses who had observed the person transgressing an act punishable by death. Next, these two witnesses had to have warned the person of the capital punishment he could receive for doing the prohibited act, even if he already knew. Finally, the person must have committed the transgression immediately after the warning. Any hesitation and the death penalty is off. The same applies to other forms of punishment.

To meet all of these conditions and incur the death penalty seems more like committing suicide then simply transgressing.

Nevertheless, the questions remains: As long as you are not hurting anyone else, sinning is your own private business. Why should you receive any sort of punishment? To get to the bottom of this, let's fly to the moon.

On December 24, 1968, the crew of Apollo 8 made history as the first astronauts to go into orbit around both sides of the moon and beam back pictures of the lunar landscape. The next day, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of blessed memory, discussed a lesson to be learned from the event.1

Central Command trains the astronauts how to eat, sleep, dress, and behave in all areas of their life while on board. Deviations, they are told, can mean the waste of billions of dollars. Hearing that such large sums of government money are at stake, the astronauts take every detail of their instructions very seriously.

Moreover, astronaut compliance has nothing to do with how much, if at all, they understand the benefits of the instructions, or the damage caused by not complying. Only the experts on the ground, who spent years researching the issues, know all the specific details. Therefore, the astronauts follow orders without question, even if they don't know the entire reasoning behind everything, because they understand that there are dire consequences for themselves and their team members.

Neither does an astronaut say, "Look, I'm only one of three—which makes me the minority. So if I don't do everything correctly, it's not going to make such a difference." Rather, he knows that any one miscalculation on his part endangers not only himself, but the other two astronauts as well.

Like a flight manual, the Torah guides and instructs us for a safe mission through life. In it, G‑d warns us of the 365 don'ts (the negative commandments) that can derail us and jeopardize our life mission. We don't always know why certain actions are more damaging and dangerous than others, and therefore carry a more severe punishment. But Mission Control does. So we listen.

Moreover, our decisions impact not only ourselves, but our friends, family, community, and the entire world. Actually, the entire idea can be found in a Midrash, composed long before anyone dreamed of space travel:

Moses exclaimed, "One person sins, and You are angry at the entire community?"2

Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai taught a parable for this, of people sitting in a boat. One of them took a drill and began drilling underneath his seat.

"What are you doing?" demanded his friends.

"What concern is it of yours?" he responded. "Am I not drilling under my own seat?"

They said to him: "Yes, but the waters will come up and drown the entire boat."3

The Mishnah states, "Why was the human being created alone? ... To teach you that every person must say: For me the world was created."4 This world, as well as all of the spiritual realms leading to it, was created for each and every person individually. As Maimonides teaches, "A person should always view himself and the entire world as if it is exactly balanced. If he does one mitzvah, he is meritorious, for he has weighed himself and the entire world to the side of merit, and he has caused for himself and for all, salvation and redemption."5

Taking all this into account, let's look back at our situation: We're talking about a very stable, Torah-directed society—evidenced by the fact that there is a Bet Din that has the power to enforce Jewish law. We are talking about a community where people know the difference between right and wrong and only very rarely does someone step out of those boundaries. One person comes along and decides to do something totally outrageous, despite a warning from two witnesses and right in front of them, knowing exactly what he is doing and what will happen to him for doing it. Basically, drilling a hole in a watertight boat for every and any sin to enter.

Truthfully, I doubt that such cases occurred too often. Rabbi Akiva was of the opinion that a court that issues a death sentence once in 70 years is a murderous court. But the message is there: Don't imagine you're an island to yourself. Think twice before sinning. The entire world depends on you.
1044  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 26, 2017, 06:00:56 AM
85% of Noble Prize winners are Christian or Jewish. Christians and Jews together make up only about 32% of the world population.

You are wrong about the figures. First of all, you are grouping Jews and Christians together. Jews have won 197 Nobel prizes till now, i.e 22.4% of the total. Remember that they are just around 0.15% of the world population. A Jew is 100 times more likely than a Christian to win the Nobel Prize.

And secondly, many of the "Christian Nobel laureates" in your list are actually non-religious or atheists.

The figures are not wrong. Here is the source read it yourself.

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=3jrbmL-DgZQC&pg=PA57&source=gbs_toc_r&hl=pt-BR#v=onepage&q&f=false

I specifically bolded the information on the large number of Jews who won Nobel Prizes. The quoted article was from 2013. At that time Jews had won 193 prizes now it's a few more.

There is no denying the accomplishments of the Jews in this area are particularly impressive. That is why I provided the numbers for both Jews and Christians separately before I provided a combined total.
1045  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Japan is one of the leaders in the world in number of suicides. on: April 26, 2017, 02:02:54 AM
Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303
Quote

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim’s social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.

METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found.

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.

Japan: The Most Religious Atheist Country
https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japan-religious-atheist-country/
Quote
However when a subsequent Gallup poll asked about atheism, it discovered that 31% of Japanese people were also willing to check the ‘convinced atheist’ box. If the phrase ‘religiously unaffiliated’ was used instead of ‘atheist’, the yes-result was a jaw-dropping 57%.
1046  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 26, 2017, 01:55:12 AM
Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303
Quote

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim’s social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.

METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found.

CONCLUSIONS: Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts. Further study about the influence of religious affiliation on aggressive behavior and how moral objections can reduce the probability of acting on suicidal thoughts may offer new therapeutic strategies in suicide prevention.

Japan: The Most Religious Atheist Country
https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japan-religious-atheist-country/
Quote
However when a subsequent Gallup poll asked about atheism, it discovered that 31% of Japanese people were also willing to check the ‘convinced atheist’ box. If the phrase ‘religiously unaffiliated’ was used instead of ‘atheist’, the yes-result was a jaw-dropping 57%.
1047  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 26, 2017, 01:42:03 AM

ROFL

First, Jesus never existed

Second, biblical quotes are far from profound (some are quite horrifying)... the bible is not known as a literary work of art by any stretch of the imagination

Blame the education system....Another 20 years and the US will be behind China, Russia, India and Brazil...never mind Europe.

Sorry but Christian universities will not cut it to lead the world in science and technology.  Do you want to see what the world looks like when religion takes over the education system?  Take a look at the Middle East.  How many Nobel Prize winners are from the Muslim countries?  That is the future the US is facing if you guys continue down this 'Christian path'.

Moloch are you so blind in your hatred of Christianity that you have lost the ability to think rationally? Denying the historical existence of Jesus is just dumb. Mass movements do not appear out of thin air. Do you think Julius Caesar never existed either or Mohammad. Maybe George Washington was just made up huh?

af_newbie religion is not incompatible with science and progress. In fact the opposite is true. Monotheism is the foundation that has allowed us to progress as far as we have. I would refer you to Religion and Progress for the reasons why.

A vastly disproportionate number of Noble Prize Winners come from the rich tradition of Monotheism.
  
Richard Dawkins Perplexed by High Number of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners
https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/10/29/richard-dawkins-perplexed-by-high-number-of-jewish-nobel-prize-winners/
Quote from: Zach Pontz
The usually self-assured biologist, author and atheist Richard Dawkins expressed his bewilderment at the disproportionate amount of Nobel prizes won by Jews in a recent interview with the New Republic, saying he is “intrigued by” the  “phenomenally high” number of Jewish laureates.

Addressing the controversy surrounding a Tweet he wrote during the conferment of Nobel prizes earlier this month, Dawkins offered up something of a mea culpa, stating: “That was unfortunate. I should have compared religion with religion and compared Islam not with Trinity College but with Jews, because the number of Jews who have won Nobel Prizes is phenomenally high.”

Continuing, he said: “Race does not come into it. It is pure religion and culture. Something about the cultural tradition of Jews is way, way more sympathetic to science and learning and intellectual pursuits than Islam. That would have been a fair comparison. Ironically, I originally wrote the tweet with Jews and thought, That might give offense. And so I thought I better change it.”

Asked why he thought it is that Jews have won so many Nobel Prizes, Dawkins was forthright with his uncertainty.

“I haven’t thought it through. I don’t know. But I don’t think it is a minor thing; it is colossal. I think more than 20 percent of Nobel Prizes have been won by Jews.”

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, since the Nobel was first awarded in 1901 approximately 193 of the 855 honorees have been Jewish (22%). Jews make up less than 0.2% of the global population.


This year 6 of 12 laureates were Jewish. The 13th laureate, for the Nobel Peace Prize, was awarded to an organization and not an individual.

What about Christians? Well they took home a massive share of the prizes too.

Christians: 65.4% of Nobel Prize Laureates
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/christians-65-4-of-nobel-prize-laureates.174202/
Quote
According to 100 Years of Nobel Prize (2005), a review of Nobel prizes awarded between 1901 and 2000, 65.4% of Nobel Prize Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference (423 prizes). Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace, 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics, 62% in Medicine, 54% in Economics and 49.5% of all Literature awards.

85% of Noble Prize winners are Christian or Jewish. Christians and Jews together make up only about 32% of the world population.

1048  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Japan is one of the leaders in the world in number of suicides. on: April 25, 2017, 07:09:24 PM
Christian missionaries find Japan a tough nut to crack
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/12/20/national/history/christian-missionaries-find-japan-tough-nut-crack/#.WPmOpb9OKEc
Quote from: MICHAEL HOFFMAN
But Christian missionaries find Japan a tough nut to crack. They always have, ever since the first of them, St. Francis Xavier, landed in Kyushu in 1549. His first impression, based on an initially friendly reception, was, “In my opinion no people superior to the Japanese will be found among the unbelievers.” Two years later, he left disheartened, calling Japanese Buddhism “an invention of the devil.”

Missionaries today use different language but express similar frustration. The Japanese have so eagerly embraced everything Western — from fads to philosophies, baseball to scientific method. Why not Christianity? Even China, officially atheist and repressive of anything outside state control, counts 52 million Christians. In South Korea, 30 percent of a population of 50 million professes Christianity. In Japan? Less than 1 percent.

One explanation comes from Minoru Okuyama, director, as of 2010, of the Missionary Training Center in Japan. That year, he told a global missions conference, “Japanese make much of human relationships more than the truth. Consequently we can say that as for Japanese, one of the most important things is harmony; in Japanese, ‘Wa.'” The Japanese, said Okuyama, “are afraid of disturbing human relationships of their families or neighborhood even though they know Christianity is best.” Chinese and South Koreans, by contrast, “make more of truth or principle than human relationships.”

A shrewd and outspoken samurai character in Shusaku Endo’s historical novel “Samurai” (1980) put a similar thought much more bluntly. His sullen response to a Spanish missionary’s evangelizing, circa 1610, was, “The Japanese don’t care whether God exists or not.”

JAPAN’S BIRTHRATE HITS HISTORIC LOW
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/japans-demographic-demise
Quote from: Anita Carey
First time in 100+ years newborn population dips below 1 million
TOKYO - Numbers recently released by the Japanese government show that the newborn population has dipped below 1 million for the first time in more than a hundred years.

Japan's Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare released demographic data for 2016 revealing the biggest net decrease in the almost 10 years of population decline. The birthrate has fallen to its lowest level since World War II, with only 981,000 births, while the death rate is estimated at 1.3 million. It's the lowest number of births since the census first began in 1899.

Officials projecting the figures have determined the overall population of Japan to decrease to 99.1 million by 2048 and to 86.7 million — a decrease of nearly one third from today's population of 126 million. Additionally, the people are aging, decreasing the working population by almost half — an estimated 46 percent — over the same time period.


To understand how these two articles are related to the OP I would direct you to the Health and Religion thread.
1049  Other / Politics & Society / Re: God in the machine: my strange journey into transhumanism on: April 25, 2017, 06:14:39 PM
What is actually the worst possible outcome is to have one strategy, religion, or culture adopted by everyone.

This is the point I disagree with. I think we both agree that the optimal way to increase degrees of freedom for individuals is to allow and enable instead of controlling. A universal strategy is an essential foundation that enables freedom. Without that, we have the situation that is developing now with varying viewpoints where some sets are progressing toward destruction and others are being dragged into declining entropy. Competition can take place when there is room for growth but on a globally saturated scale, nobody wins.

Reproductive strategy is likely to become essentially irrelevant for humanity, possibly within our lifetimes. It seems inevitable that our existing biological bodies will give way to different forms that will carry us off-planet. At that point, allowing and enabling all individuals to thrive in a constructive environment becomes paramount. What then is the protocol that keeps that freedom from becoming destructive? Of course, my thinking is that the protocol is outlined in the Christian bible.

The following two (relatively) short videos may be of interest regarding previous discussion:
The moral argument for God
Why Does God Allow Evil?

The theory in this thread if correct provides a possible mechanism for Genesis 2:17 at least in regards to Homo sapiens.
1050  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI on: April 25, 2017, 06:06:31 PM
God in the machine: my strange journey into transhumanism

After losing her faith, a former evangelical Christian felt adrift in the world. She then found solace in a radical technological philosophy – but its promises of immortality and spiritual transcendence soon seemed unsettlingly familiar

by Meghan O'Gieblyn

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/18/god-in-the-machine-my-strange-journey-into-transhumanism

Quote
I first read Ray Kurzweil’s book, The Age of Spiritual Machines, in 2006, a few years after I dropped out of Bible school and stopped believing in God. I was living alone in Chicago’s southern industrial sector and working nights as a cocktail waitress. I was not well. Beyond the people I worked with, I spoke to almost no one. I clocked out at three each morning, went to after-hours bars, and came home on the first train of the morning, my head pressed against the window so as to avoid the spectre of my reflection appearing and disappearing in the blackened glass.

At Bible school, I had studied a branch of theology that divided all of history into successive stages by which God revealed his truth. We were told we were living in the “Dispensation of Grace”, the penultimate era, which precedes that glorious culmination, the “Millennial Kingdom”, when the clouds part and Christ returns and life is altered beyond comprehension. But I no longer believed in this future. More than the death of God, I was mourning the dissolution of this narrative, which envisioned all of history as an arc bending towards a moment of final redemption. It was a loss that had fractured even my experience of time. My hours had become non-hours. Days seemed to unravel and circle back on themselves.

The Kurzweil book belonged to a bartender at the jazz club where I worked. He lent it to me a couple of weeks after I’d seen him reading it and asked him – more out of boredom than genuine curiosity – what it was about. I read the first pages on the train home from work, in the grey and ghostly hours before dawn.

“The 21st century will be different,” Kurzweil wrote. “The human species, along with the computational technology it created, will be able to solve age-old problems … and will be in a position to change the nature of mortality in a postbiological future.”

Like the theologians at my Bible school, Kurzweil, who is now a director of engineering at Google and a leading proponent of a philosophy called transhumanism, had his own historical narrative. He divided all of evolution into successive epochs. We were living in the fifth epoch, when human intelligence begins to merge with technology. Soon we would reach the “Singularity”, the point at which we would be transformed into what Kurzweil called “Spiritual Machines”. We would transfer or “resurrect” our minds onto supercomputers, allowing us to live forever. Our bodies would become incorruptible, immune to disease and decay, and we would acquire knowledge by uploading it to our brains. Nanotechnology would allow us to remake Earth into a terrestrial paradise, and then we would migrate to space, terraforming other planets. Our powers, in short, would be limitless.

It’s difficult to account for the totemic power I ascribed to the book. I carried it with me everywhere, tucked in the recesses of my backpack, though I was paranoid about being seen with it in public. It seemed to me a work of alchemy or a secret gospel. It is strange, in retrospect, that I was not more sceptical of these promises. I’d grown up in the kind of millenarian sect of Christianity where pastors were always throwing out new dates for the Rapture. But Kurzweil’s prophecies seemed different because they were bolstered by science. Moore’s law held that computer processing power doubled every two years, meaning that technology was developing at an exponential rate. Thirty years ago, a computer chip contained 3,500 transistors. Today it has more than 1bn. By 2045, Kurzweil predicted, the technology would be inside our bodies. At that moment, the arc of progress would curve into a vertical line.

Many transhumanists such as Kurzweil contend that they are carrying on the legacy of the Enlightenment – that theirs is a philosophy grounded in reason and empiricism, even if they do lapse occasionally into metaphysical language about “transcendence” and “eternal life”. As I read more about the movement, I learned that most transhumanists are atheists who, if they engage at all with monotheistic faith, defer to the familiar antagonisms between science and religion. “The greatest threat to humanity’s continuing evolution,” writes the transhumanist Simon Young, “is theistic opposition to Superbiology in the name of a belief system based on blind faith in the absence of evidence.”

Yet although few transhumanists would likely admit it, their theories about the future are a secular outgrowth of Christian eschatology. The word transhuman first appeared not in a work of science or technology but in Henry Francis Carey’s 1814 translation of Dante’s Paradiso, the final book of the Divine Comedy. Dante has completed his journey through paradise and is ascending into the spheres of heaven when his human flesh is suddenly transformed. He is vague about the nature of his new body. “Words may not tell of that transhuman change,” he writes.

Dante, in this passage, is dramatising the resurrection, the moment when, according to Christian prophecies, the dead will rise from their graves and the living will be granted immortal flesh. The vast majority of Christians throughout the ages have believed that these prophecies would happen supernaturally – God would bring them about, when the time came. But since the medieval period, there has also persisted a tradition of Christians who believed that humanity could enact the resurrection through science and technology. The first efforts of this sort were taken up by alchemists. Roger Bacon, a 13th-century friar who is often considered the first western scientist, tried to develop an elixir of life that would mimic the effects of the resurrection as described in Paul’s epistles.

The Enlightenment failed to eradicate projects of this sort. If anything, modern science provided more varied and creative ways for Christians to envision these prophecies. In the late 19th century, a Russian Orthodox ascetic named Nikolai Fedorov was inspired by Darwinism to argue that humans could direct their own evolution to bring about the resurrection. Up to this point, natural selection had been a random phenomenon, but now, thanks to technology, humans could intervene in this process. Calling on biblical prophecies, he wrote: “This day will be divine, awesome, but not miraculous, for resurrection will be a task not of miracle but of knowledge and common labour.”

According to Kurzweil, we would soon reach the Singularity, when we would be transformed into ‘Spiritual Machines’
This theory was carried into the 20th century by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a French Jesuit priest and palaeontologist who, like Fedorov, believed that evolution would lead to the Kingdom of God. In 1949, Teilhard proposed that in the future all machines would be linked to a vast global network that would allow human minds to merge. Over time, this unification of consciousness would lead to an intelligence explosion – the “Omega Point” – enabling humanity to “break through the material framework of Time and Space” and merge seamlessly with the divine. The Omega Point is an obvious precursor to Kurzweil’s Singularity, but in Teilhard’s mind, it was how the biblical resurrection would take place. Christ was guiding evolution toward a state of glorification so that humanity could finally merge with God in eternal perfection.

Transhumanists have acknowledged Teilhard and Fedorov as forerunners of their movement, but the religious context of their ideas is rarely mentioned. Most histories of the movement attribute the first use of the term transhumanism to Julian Huxley, the British eugenicist and close friend of Teilhard’s who, in the 1950s, expanded on many of the priest’s ideas in his own writings – with one key exception. Huxley, a secular humanist, believed that Teilhard’s visions need not be grounded in any larger religious narrative. In 1951, he gave a lecture that proposed a non-religious version of the priest’s ideas. “Such a broad philosophy,” he wrote, “might perhaps be called, not Humanism, because that has certain unsatisfactory connotations, but Transhumanism. It is the idea of humanity attempting to overcome its limitations and to arrive at fuller fruition.”

The contemporary iteration of the movement arose in San Francisco in the late 1980s among a band of tech-industry people with a libertarian streak. They initially called themselves Extropians and communicated through newsletters and at annual conferences. Kurzweil was one of the first major thinkers to bring these ideas into the mainstream and legitimise them for a wider audience. His ascent in 2012 to a director of engineering position at Google, heralded, for many, a symbolic merger between transhumanist philosophy and the clout of major technological enterprise.

Transhumanists today wield enormous power in Silicon Valley – entrepreneurs such as Elon Musk and Peter Thiel identify as believers – where they have founded thinktanks such as the Singularity University and the Future of Humanity Institute. The ideas proposed by the pioneers of the movement are no longer abstract theoretical musings but are being embedded into emerging technologies at organisations such as Google, Apple, Tesla and SpaceX.

Losing faith in God in the 21st century is an anachronistic experience. You end up contending with the kinds of things the west dealt with more than a hundred years ago: materialism, the end of history, the death of the soul. When I think back on that period of my life, what I recall most viscerally is an unnamable sense of dread. There were days I woke in a panic, certain that I’d lost some essential part of myself in the fume of a blackout, and would work my fingers across my nose, my lips, my eyebrows, and my ears until I assured myself that everything was intact. My body had become strange to me; it seemed insubstantial. I went out of my way to avoid subway grates because I believed I could slip through them. One morning, on the train home from work, I became convinced that my flesh was melting into the seat.

At the time, I would have insisted that my rituals of self-abuse – drinking, pills, the impulse to put my body in danger in ways I now know were deliberate – were merely efforts to escape; that I was contending, however clumsily, with the overwhelming despair at the absence of God. But at least one piece of that despair came from the knowledge that my body was no longer a sacred vessel; that it was not a temple of the holy spirit, formed in the image of God and intended to carry me into eternity; that my body was matter, and any harm I did to it was only aiding the unstoppable process of entropy for which it was destined.

To confront this reality after believing otherwise is to experience perhaps the deepest sense of loss we are capable of as humans. It’s not just about coming to terms with the fact that you will die. It has something to do with suspecting that there is no difference between your human flesh and the plastic seat of the train. It has to do with the inability to watch your reflection appear and vanish in a window without coming to believe you are identical to it.

What makes the transhumanist movement so seductive is that it promises to restore, through science, the transcendent hopes that science itself has obliterated. Transhumanists do not believe in the existence of a soul, but they are not strict materialists, either. Kurzweil claims he is a “patternist”, characterising consciousness as the result of biological processes, “a pattern of matter and energy that persists over time”. These patterns, which contain what we tend to think of as our identity, are currently running on physical hardware – the body – that will one day give out. But they can, at least in theory, be transferred onto supercomputers, robotic surrogates or human clones. A pattern, transhumanists would insist, is not the same as a soul. But it’s not difficult to see how it satisfies the same longing. At the very least, a pattern suggests that there is some essential core of our being that will survive and perhaps transcend the inevitable degradation of flesh.

Of course, mind uploading has spurred all kinds of philosophical anxieties. If the pattern of your consciousness is transferred onto a computer, is the pattern “you” or a simulation of your mind? One camp of transhumanists have argued that true resurrection can happen only if it is bodily resurrection. They tend to favour cryonics and bionics, which promise to resurrect the entire body or else supplement the living form with technologies to indefinitely extend life.

It is perhaps not coincidental that an ideology that grew out of Christian eschatology would come to inherit its philosophical problems. The question of whether the resurrection would be corporeal or merely spiritual was an obsessive point of debate among early Christians. One faction, which included the Gnostic sects, argued that only the soul would survive death; another insisted that the resurrection was not a true resurrection unless it revived the body.

Transhumanists, in their eagerness to preempt charges of dualism, tend to sound an awful lot like these early church fathers. Eric Steinhart, a “digitalist” philosopher at William Paterson University, is among the transhumanists who insist the resurrection must be physical. “Uploading does not aim to leave the flesh behind,” he writes, “on the contrary, it aims at the intensification of the flesh.” The irony is that transhumanists are arguing these questions as though they were the first to consider them. Their discussions give no indication that these debates belong to a theological tradition that stretches back to the earliest centuries of the Common Era.

While the effects of my deconversion were often felt physically, the root causes were mostly cerebral. My doubts began in earnest during my second year at Bible school, after I read The Brothers Karamazov and entertained, for the first time, the problem of how evil could exist in a world created by a benevolent God. In our weekly dormitory prayer groups, my classmates would assure me that all Christians struggled with these questions, but the stakes in my case were higher because I was planning to become a missionary after graduation. I nodded deferentially as my friends supplied the familiar apologetics, but afterward, in the silence of my dorm room, I imagined myself evangelising a citizen of some remote country and crumbling at the moment she pointed out those theological contradictions I myself could not abide or explain.

I knew other people who had left the church, and was amazed at how effortlessly they had seemed to cast off their former beliefs. Perhaps I clung to the faith because, despite my doubts, I found – and still find – the fundamental promises of Christianity beautiful, particularly the notion that human existence ultimately resolves into harmony. What I could not reconcile was the idea that an omnipotent and benevolent God could allow for so much suffering.

Transhumanism offered a vision of redemption without the thorny problems of divine justice. It was an evolutionary approach to eschatology, one in which humanity took it upon itself to bring about the final glorification of the body and could not be blamed if the path to redemption was messy or inefficient. Within months of encountering Kurzweil, I became totally immersed in transhumanist philosophy. By this point, it was early December and the days had grown dark. The city was besieged by a series of early winter storms, and snow piled up on the windowsills, silencing the noise outside. I increasingly spent my afternoons at the public library, researching things like nanotechnology and brain-computer interfaces.

Once, after following link after link, I came across a paper called “Are You Living in a Computer Simulation?” It was written by the Oxford philosopher and transhumanist Nick Bostrom, who used mathematical probability to argue that it’s “likely” that we currently reside in a Matrix-like simulation of the past created by our posthuman descendants. Most of the paper consisted of esoteric calculations, but I became rapt when Bostrom started talking about the potential for an afterlife. If we are essentially software, he noted, then after we die we might be “resurrected” in another simulation. Or we could be “promoted” by the programmers and brought to life in base reality. The theory was totally naturalistic – all of it was possible without any appeals to the supernatural – but it was essentially an argument for intelligent design. “In some ways,” Bostrom conceded, “the posthumans running a simulation are like gods in relation to the people inhabiting the simulation”.

One afternoon, deep in the bowels of an online forum, I discovered a link to a cache of “simulation theology” – articles written by fans of Bostrom’s theory. According to the “Argument for Virtuous Engineers”, it was reasonable to assume that our creators were benevolent because the capacity to build sophisticated technologies required “long-term stability” and “rational purposefulness”. These qualities could not be cultivated without social harmony, and social harmony could be achieved only by virtuous beings. The articles were written by software engineers, programmers and the occasional philosopher.

The deeper I got into the articles, the more unhinged my thinking became. One day, it occurred to me: perhaps God was the designer and Christ his digital avatar, and the incarnation his way of entering the simulation to share tips about our collective survival as a species. Or maybe the creation of our world was a competition, a kind of video game in which each participating programmer invented one of the world religions, sent down his own prophet-avatar and received points for every new convert.

By this point I’d passed beyond idle speculation. A new, more pernicious thought had come to dominate my mind: transhumanist ideas were not merely similar to theological concepts but could in fact be the events described in the Bible. It was only a short time before my obsession reached its culmination. I got out my old study Bible and began to scan the prophetic literature for signs of the cybernetic revolution. I began to wonder whether I could pray to beings outside the simulation. I had initially been drawn to transhumanism because it was grounded in science. In the end, I became consumed with the kind of referential mania and blind longing that animates all religious belief.

I’ve since had to distance myself from prolonged meditation on these topics. People who once believed, I have been told, are prone to recidivism. Over the past decade, as transhumanism has become the premise of Hollywood blockbusters and a passable topic of small talk among people under 40, I’ve had to excuse myself from conversations, knowing that any mention of simulation theory or the noosphere can send me spiralling down that techno-theological rabbit hole.

Last spring, a friend of mine from Bible school, a fellow apostate, sent me an email with the title “robot evangelism”. “I seem to recall you being into this stuff,” he said. There was a link to an episode of The Daily Show that had aired a year ago. The video was a satirical report by the correspondent Jordan Klepper called “Future Christ”, in which a Florida pastor, Christopher Benek, argued that in the future, AI could be evangelised just like humans. The interview had been heavily edited, and it wasn’t really clear what Benek believed, except that robots might one day be capable of spiritual life, an idea that failed to strike me as intrinsically absurd.

One transhumanist believes we may reside in a Matrix-like simulation of the past created by our posthuman descendants
I Googled Benek. He had studied to be a pastor at Princeton Theological Seminary, one of the most prestigious in the country. He described himself in his bio as a “techno-theologian, futurist, ethicist, Christian Transhumanist, public speaker and writer”. He also chaired the board of something called the Christian Transhumanism Association. I followed a link to the organisation’s website, which included that peculiar quote from Dante: “Words cannot tell of that transhuman change.”

All this seemed unlikely. Was it possible there were now Christian Transhumanists? Actual believers who thought the Kingdom of God would come about through the Singularity? I had thought I was alone in drawing these parallels between transhumanism and biblical prophecy, but the convergences seemed to have gained legitimacy from the pulpit. How long would it be before everyone noticed the symmetry of these two ideologies – before Kurzweil began quoting the Gospel of John and Bostrom was read alongside the minor prophets?

A few months later, I met with Benek at a cafe across the street from his church in Fort Lauderdale. In my email to him, I’d presented my curiosity as journalistic, unable to admit – even to myself – what lay behind my desire to meet.

He arrived in the same navy blazer he had worn for The Daily Show interview and appeared nervous. The Daily Show had been a disaster, he told me. He had spoken with them for an hour about the finer points of his theology, but the interview had been cut down to his two-minute spiel on robots – something he insisted he wasn’t even interested in, it was just a thought experiment he had been goaded into. “It’s not like I spend my days speculating on how to evangelise robots,” he said.

I explained that I wanted to know whether transhumanist ideas were compatible with Christian eschatology. Was it possible that technology would be the avenue by which humanity achieved the resurrection and immortality? I worried that the question sounded a little deranged, but Benek appeared suddenly energised. It turned out he was writing a dissertation on precisely this subject.

“Technology has a role in the process of redemption,” he said. Christians today assume the prophecies about bodily perfection and eternal life are going to be realised in heaven. But the disciples understood those prophecies as referring to things that were going to take place here on Earth. Jesus had spoken of the Kingdom of God as a terrestrial domain, albeit one in which the imperfections of earthly existence were done away with. This idea, he assured me, was not unorthodox; it was just old.

I asked Benek about humility. Wasn’t it all about the fallen nature of the flesh and our tragic limitations as humans?

“Sure,” he said. He paused a moment, as though debating whether to say more. Finally, he leaned in and rested his elbows on the table, his demeanour markedly pastoral, and began speaking about the transfiguration and the nature of Christ. Jesus, he reminded me, was both fully human and fully God. What was interesting, he said, was that science had actually verified the potential for matter to have two distinct natures. Superposition, a principle in quantum theory, suggests that an object can be in two places at one time. A photon could be a particle, and it could also be a wave. It could have two natures. “When Jesus tells us that if we have faith nothing will be impossible for us, I think he means that literally.”

By this point, I had stopped taking notes. It was late afternoon, and the cafe was washed in amber light. Perhaps I was a little dehydrated, but Benek’s ideas began to make perfect sense. This was, after all, the promise implicit in the incarnation: that the body could be both human and divine, that the human form could walk on water. “Very truly I tell you,” Christ had said to his disciples, “whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these.” His earliest followers had taken this promise literally. Perhaps these prophecies had pointed to the future achievements of humanity all along, our ability to harness technology to become transhuman. Christ had spoken mostly in parables – no doubt for good reason. If a superior being had indeed come to Earth to prophesy the future to 1st-century humans, he would not have wasted time trying to explain modern computing or sketching the trajectory of Moore’s law on a scrap of papyrus. He would have said, “You will have a new body,” and “All things will be changed beyond recognition,” and “On Earth as it is in heaven.” Perhaps only now that technologies were emerging to make such prophecies a reality could we begin to understand what Christ meant about the fate of our species.

I could sense my reason becoming loosened by the lure of these familiar conspiracies. Somewhere, in the pit of my stomach, it was amassing: the fevered, elemental hope that the tumult of the world was authored and intentional, that our profound confusion would one day click into clarity and the broken body would be restored. Part of me was still helpless against the pull of these ideas.

It was late. The cafe had emptied and a barista was sweeping near our table. As we stood to go, I felt that our conversation was unresolved. I suppose I’d been hoping that Benek would hand me some portal back to the faith, one paved by the certitude of modern science. But if anything had become clear to me, it was my own desperation, my willingness to spring at this largely speculative ideology that offered a vestige of that first religious promise. I had disavowed Christianity, and yet I had spent the past 10 years hopelessly trying to re-create its visions by dreaming about our postbiological future – a modern pantomime of redemption. What else could lie behind this impulse but the ghost of that first hope?
1051  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI on: April 25, 2017, 05:23:25 PM
Yes this is the next stage of exponential technological growth. It cannot be stopped.

Here are a few more highlights:

The Sadness and Beauty of Watching Google’s AI Play Go
https://www.wired.com/2016/03/sadness-beauty-watching-googles-ai-play-go/
Quote
“It’s not a human move. I’ve never seen a human play this move,” he says. “So beautiful.” It’s a word he keeps repeating. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.

The move was the 37th in the second game of the historic Go match between Lee Sedol, one of the world’s top players, and AlphaGo, an artificially intelligent computing system built by researchers at Google.

AI wins $290,000 in Chinese poker competition
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39564836
Quote
The AI system, called Lengpudashi, won a landslide victory and $290,000 (£230,000) in the five-day competition.
It is the second time this year that an AI program has beaten competitive poker players.

Human intellect will increasingly become supplanted by machine intellect. We are seeing the start of it in our lifetimes. Hopefully we will be wise enough to incorporate morals into our machines.
1052  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 25, 2017, 04:02:10 AM
Is Christianity poision? Of course it is. It's not even worth debating, it just simply is. And that's that.

But wait......

Before all the Christians pour on here, red cheeks, chests puffing up, palms sweaty, ready to rip my head off.
Just stop and think of Christianity like alcohol.

Alcohol (ethyl alcohol) is a poison, just like Christianity.

Many many people all over the world enjoy an alcoholic beverage drink, with no harmful effects. Just like Christianity.
Moderate alcohol use has possible health benefits, but it's not risk-free. Just like Christianity.
It can make a social event better, happier and friendlier. Just like Christianity.

But of course take too much and:

Drinking too much alcohol, and your ability to think clearly is in trouble. Just like Christainity.
Drink too much and people tend to act irrational, wanting to punch each others light out. Just like Christianity.


So you see Christianity (in moderation) is a good thing, it all depends on the dosage.
However, take too much (like BADlogic) and it becomes poisionous, you become like the drunk twat at a wedding. Flopping about, telling unfunny jokes how you once shagged the bride, urinating on the dance floor.
Giving Christianity a bad name, like BADlogic.


Christianity is life. Christianity:
1. Describes the source of life, God;
2. Shows how God gave us Life in the beginning;
3. Expresses how we threw life away in the face of God's warning;
4. Documents the them of the Savior, Jesus, Who is life;
5. Presents how Jesus brought life back to us;
6. Maintains our freedom to accept or reject the new life;
7. Expresses what our new life in Heaven will be basically like.

Christianity is the only source and upholding of life. There is nothing else regarding life. The choice is still open to you to accept or reject life. However, because of the depth to which God place Himself into our nature and the universe, rejecting life will be a very agonizing thing.

In the beginning, God gave Adam and Eve life. God warned them about eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He told them they would die if they ate the fruit. Spiritually, they died the day they ate the fruit. Physically they died as well, later. All the pains and troubles of life came into the universe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Heed the warning of God... the warning shown through Christianity. Christianity is the only way to future life. Future life will be fun. But future death will be terrible.

The hope of Christianity is that every one of us will gain the good eternal life. If this is poison for you, then you love death.

Cool

I love life and I agree with Buffer Overflow.  Christianity is an addiction. It poisons your mind.  Makes you a slave to its ideology.
It blames you and makes feel weak, it belittles people, it subjugates people, it discriminates, it is a mind poison on so many levels.

When (if) you free yourself from the shackles of Christianity (or any other religion for that matter), you are truly free.  You can think for yourself and evaluate the world the way it is.

People who believe in Christianity are afraid of everything.  They believe in imaginary beings like devil and ghosts.  I are afraid to be alone in the dark or go to the cemetery at night.  Christianity clouds their judgement, it creates an invisible cloak over their mind.

Everything they do or think is in the context of the Christian ideology.  They see God (and/or Devil) in everything and everyone they interact with.  They are brainwashed.  There is no difference between Scientology and Christianity, IMHO.  Fundamentally, they work on the same premise.  You are broken and we are here to fix you, if you follow us and pay a small fee.


Slavery exists throughout the universe without Christianity and without anything we do or say. How does slavery exist? Can you literally, using your own two legs, jump to the moon? If you can, you are probably the only one. If you are not a slave to gravity, then you are a slave to something else, even if it is needing your own brain to stabilize a thinking mind within yourself.

So, true freedom amounts to being able to work harmoniously withing the universe, inside the bonds of your slavery, to allow yourself the most freedom and comfort as possible.

This is what Christianity does for you. Christianity asks you to love all people, to show this love, and it uses the laws of the Old Testament as the guide that shows you the actions you will do to express your love.

Will obeying the laws of the O.T. in the love of the N.T. be beneficial in your freedom? Absolutely, YES! Why? Because then peace-loving people around you will treat you well, because of the good you show them, because of following the laws and love suggestions of Christianity.

In addition, Christianity shows you how to be saved to eternal life, thereby freeing you from the deep bondage/slavery of death. And since it warns about rejecting God, warns about the lake of fire torment such rejection will bring, it frees you from the coming torment, as well, if you accept the freedom.

Pure Christianity is by far the best freedom around. The only time it is not freedom, is when the people who view it would rather have slavery. And even then it is freedom. Why? Because it allows all people the freedom to select slavery if they want.

Now, if that is poison to anyone, he/she has been warped by his/her own evil passions. Slavery is never freedom, but is almost always poison. Christianity offers freedom, so it is absolutely NOT slavery, or poison.

Cool

An informative exchange. Very nicely said.

Here are some thoughts on the relationship between decentralization, knowledge, freedom and religion.


This post will explore the relationship between freedom and knowledge.

Knowledge and Power by George Gilder
https://www.amazon.com/Knowledge-Power-Information-Capitalism-Revolutionizing/dp/1621570274
Quote
The most manifest characteristic of human beings is their diversity. The freer an economy is, the more this human diversity of knowledge will be manifested. By contrast, political power originates in top-down processes—governments, monopolies, regulators, elite institutions, all attempting to quell human diversity and impose order. Thus power always seeks centralization.

Capitalism is not chiefly an incentive system but an information system. We continue with the recognition, explained by the most powerful science of the epoch, that information itself is best defined as surprise: by what we cannot predict rather than by what we can. The key to economic growth is not acquisition of things by the pursuit of monetary rewards but the expansion of wealth through learning and discovery. The economy grows not by manipulating greed and fear through bribes and punishments but by accumulating surprising knowledge through the conduct of the falsifiable experiments of free enterprises. Crucial to this learning process is the possibility of failure and bankruptcy. In this model, wealth is defined as knowledge, and growth is defined as learning.

Because the system is based more on ideas than on incentives, it is not a process changeable only over generations of Sisysphean effort. An economy is a noosphere (a mind-based system) and it can revive as fast as minds and policies can change.

That new economics—the information theory of capitalism—is already at work in disguise. Concealed behind an elaborate mathematical apparatus, sequestered by its creators in what is called information technology, the new theory drives the most powerful machines and networks of the era. Information theory treats human creations or communications as transmissions through a channel, whether a wire or the world, in the face of the power of noise, and gauges the outcomes by their news or surprise, defined as “entropy” and consummated as knowledge. Now it is ready to come out into the open and to transform economics as it has already transformed the world economy itself.

All information is surprise; only surprise qualifies as information. This is the fundamental axiom of information theory. Information is the change between what we knew before the transmission and what we know after it.

Let us imagine the lineaments of an economics of disorder, disequilibrium, and surprise that could explain and measure the contributions of entrepreneurs. Such an economics would begin with the Smithian mold of order and equilibrium. Smith himself spoke of property rights, free trade, sound currency, and modest taxation as crucial elements of an environment for prosperity. Smith was right: An arena of disorder, disequilibrium, chaos, and noise would drown the feats of creation that engender growth. The ultimate physical entropy envisaged as the heat death of the universe, in its total disorder, affords no room for invention or surprise. But entrepreneurial disorder is not chaos or mere noise. Entrepreneurial disorder is some combination of order and upheaval that might be termed “informative disorder.”

Shannon defined information in terms of digital bits and measured it by the concept of information entropy: unexpected or surprising bits...Shannon’s entropy is governed by a logarithmic equation nearly identical to the thermodynamic equation of Rudolf Clausius that describes physical entropy. But the parallels between the two entropies conceal several pitfalls that have ensnared many. Physical entropy is maximized when all the molecules in a physical system are at an equal temperature (and thus cannot yield any more energy). Shannon entropy is maximized when all the bits in a message are equally improbable (and thus cannot be further compressed without loss of
information). These two identical equations point to a deeper affinity that MIT physicist Seth Lloyd identifies as the foundation of all material reality—at the beginning was the entropic bit.
...
The accomplishment of Information Theory was to create a rigorous mathematical discipline for the definition and measurement of the information in the message sent down the channel. Shannon entropy or surprisal defines and quantifies the information in a message. In close similarity with physical entropy, information entropy is always a positive number measured by minus the base two logarithm of its probability. Information in Shannon’s scheme is quantified in terms of a probability because Shannon interpreted the message as a selection or choice from a limited alphabet. Entropy is thus a measure of freedom of choice. In the simplest case of maximum entropy of equally probable elements, the uncertainty is merely the inverse of the number of elements or symbols.
...
Linking innovation, surprise, and profit, learning and growth, Shannon entropy stands at the heart of the economics of information theory. Signaling the arrival of an invention or disruptive innovation is first its surprisal, then its yield beyond the interest rate—its profit, a further form of Shannon entropy. As a new item is absorbed by the market, however, its entropy declines until its margins converge with prevailing risk adjusted interest rates. The entrepreneur must move on to new surprises. The economics of entropy depict the process by which the entrepreneur translates his idea into a practical form from the realms of imaginative creation. In those visionary realms, entropy is essentially infinite and unconstrained, and thus irrelevant to economic models. But to make the imagined practical, the entrepreneur must make specific choices among existing resources and strategic possibilities. Entropy here signifies his freedom of choice.

As Shannon understood, the creation process itself escapes every logical and mathematical system. It springs not from secure knowledge but from falsifiable tests of commercial hypotheses. It is not an expression of past knowledge but of the fertility of consciousness, will, discipline, imagination, and art.

Knowledge is created by the dynamic interaction of consciousness over time. This process results in surprise (new information) which is the foundation of new knowledge. Entropy in this context is a measure of freedom, it is the freedom of choice. An information system with higher entropy allows for greater dynamic interaction of consciousness and thus greater knowledge formation. Freedom must be subject to the constraint of convergence. Some top-down order must be maintained to prevent destructive chaos aka noise that would otherwise destroy rather than create knowledge.

The amount of top-down control needed increases in the presence of increased noise. A primitive population may require the iron fist of a dictator whereas an educated one may thrive in a republic. However, power always seeks centralization. Thus the tendency of both of the dictatorship and the republic will be towards ever increasing centralization restricting freedom beyond that what is necessary and hobbling knowledge formation.

I posit that that the only model of top-down control that facilitates knowledge formation without inevitable progressive centralization is Ethical Monotheism. Uniformly adopted and voluntary followed it may be the only restraint on freedom that is necessary.
1053  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 25, 2017, 03:26:07 AM
Is Christianity poision? Of course it is. It's not even worth debating, it just simply is. And that's that.

But wait......

Before all the Christians pour on here, red cheeks, chests puffing up, palms sweaty, ready to rip my head off.
Just stop and think of Christianity like alcohol.

Alcohol (ethyl alcohol) is a poison, just like Christianity.

Many many people all over the world enjoy an alcoholic beverage drink, with no harmful effects. Just like Christianity.
Moderate alcohol use has possible health benefits, but it's not risk-free. Just like Christianity.
It can make a social event better, happier and friendlier. Just like Christianity.

But of course take too much and:

Drinking too much alcohol, and your ability to think clearly is in trouble. Just like Christainity.
Drink too much and people tend to act irrational, wanting to punch each others light out. Just like Christianity.


So you see Christianity (in moderation) is a good thing, it all depends on the dosage.
However, take too much (like BADlogic) and it becomes poisionous, you become like the drunk twat at a wedding. Flopping about, telling unfunny jokes how you once shagged the bride, urinating on the dance floor.
Giving Christianity a bad name, like BADlogic.


Christianity is life. Christianity:
1. Describes the source of life, God;
2. Shows how God gave us Life in the beginning;
3. Expresses how we threw life away in the face of God's warning;
4. Documents the them of the Savior, Jesus, Who is life;
5. Presents how Jesus brought life back to us;
6. Maintains our freedom to accept or reject the new life;
7. Expresses what our new life in Heaven will be basically like.

Christianity is the only source and upholding of life. There is nothing else regarding life. The choice is still open to you to accept or reject life. However, because of the depth to which God place Himself into our nature and the universe, rejecting life will be a very agonizing thing.

In the beginning, God gave Adam and Eve life. God warned them about eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He told them they would die if they ate the fruit. Spiritually, they died the day they ate the fruit. Physically they died as well, later. All the pains and troubles of life came into the universe when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.

Heed the warning of God... the warning shown through Christianity. Christianity is the only way to future life. Future life will be fun. But future death will be terrible.

The hope of Christianity is that every one of us will gain the good eternal life. If this is poison for you, then you love death.

Cool

I love life and I agree with Buffer Overflow.  Christianity is an addiction. It poisons your mind.  Makes you a slave to its ideology.
It blames you and makes feel weak, it belittles people, it subjugates people, it discriminates, it is a mind poison on so many levels.

When (if) you free yourself from the shackles of Christianity (or any other religion for that matter), you are truly free.  You can think for yourself and evaluate the world the way it is.

People who believe in Christianity are afraid of everything.  They believe in imaginary beings like devil and ghosts.  I are afraid to be alone in the dark or go to the cemetery at night.  Christianity clouds their judgement, it creates an invisible cloak over their mind.

Everything they do or think is in the context of the Christian ideology.  They see God (and/or Devil) in everything and everyone they interact with.  They are brainwashed.  There is no difference between Scientology and Christianity, IMHO.  Fundamentally, they work on the same premise.  You are broken and we are here to fix you, if you follow us and pay a small fee.


Slavery exists throughout the universe without Christianity and without anything we do or say. How does slavery exist? Can you literally, using your own two legs, jump to the moon? If you can, you are probably the only one. If you are not a slave to gravity, then you are a slave to something else, even if it is needing your own brain to stabilize a thinking mind within yourself.

So, true freedom amounts to being able to work harmoniously withing the universe, inside the bonds of your slavery, to allow yourself the most freedom and comfort as possible.

This is what Christianity does for you. Christianity asks you to love all people, to show this love, and it uses the laws of the Old Testament as the guide that shows you the actions you will do to express your love.

Will obeying the laws of the O.T. in the love of the N.T. be beneficial in your freedom? Absolutely, YES! Why? Because then peace-loving people around you will treat you well, because of the good you show them, because of following the laws and love suggestions of Christianity.

In addition, Christianity shows you how to be saved to eternal life, thereby freeing you from the deep bondage/slavery of death. And since it warns about rejecting God, warns about the lake of fire torment such rejection will bring, it frees you from the coming torment, as well, if you accept the freedom.

Pure Christianity is by far the best freedom around. The only time it is not freedom, is when the people who view it would rather have slavery. And even then it is freedom. Why? Because it allows all people the freedom to select slavery if they want.

Now, if that is poison to anyone, he/she has been warped by his/her own evil passions. Slavery is never freedom, but is almost always poison. Christianity offers freedom, so it is absolutely NOT slavery, or poison.

Cool
1054  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Devastation on: April 24, 2017, 04:11:26 PM
Interesting article on the future of large cities in regards to decentralized solutions from charles hugh smith

Are Cities the Incubators of Decentralized Solutions?
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmar17/cities-solutions3-17.html
Quote
Those urban regions that pursue decentralized, networked, localized solutions will likely prosper as the adaptive advantages of these principles pay self-reinforcing dividends.

In yesterday's entry, I suggested that rather than bemoan the inevitable failure of centralized "fixes," let's turn our efforts to the real solutions: decentralized, networked, localized. To commentators such as Richard Florida, decentralized, networked, localized describes cities.

He describes the transition from central states imposing solutions to cities being the incubators of solutions as The Most Disruptive Transformation in History: How the clustering of knowledge lays bare the need to devolve power from the nation-state to the city.

Florida has authored three books on the increasing concentration of the "creative class" and capital in urban zones--cities and their surrounding satellite cities, suburbs and exurbs: The Rise of the Creative Class and Who's Your City?: How the Creative Economy Is Making Where to Live the Most Important Decision of Your Life.

More recently, he addressed the soaring costs of living in these urban area in The New Urban Crisis: How Our Cities Are Increasing Inequality, Deepening Segregation, and Failing the Middle Class—and What We Can Do About It.

Florida's main thesis is straightforward: solutions are coming from city governments, institutions and enterprises, not central states. Since the world's populace has rapidly urbanized, this transformation affects the majority of people in both the developed and developing worlds.
I've often written about the need to move from centralization to decentralization: centralized command-and-control mechanisms are optimized for the economy and society of the late 1940s - early 1960s, not the economy/society of today that is being creatively disrupted by the 4th Industrial Revolution (digital communications, software, automation, robotics, Internet).
Florida's premise makes a great deal of common-sense, for the basic reason that different cities face different problems (or different versions of the same problem), and each regional mega-city is embedded in a different state and economy.

Cities also have different resources and dominant political cultures.
In effect, devolving political power to cities would enable a suite of local solutions rather than a single "fix" imposed by a topdown centralized authority.

This article illustrates the spectrum of cities (the categories are somewhat arbitrary, of course): The Megacity Economy: How Seven Types Of Global Cities Stack Up.
To understand why the city may be the ideal political-social-economic unit to manage successful adaptation, look at these three maps of the U.S. The first reflects the GDP generated within each county; the second shows real growth in GDP by region, and the third displays the wages of the so-called "creative class"--those with high-demand skillsets, education and experience.


The spikes reflect enormous concentrations of GDP. This concentrated creation of goods and services generates jobs and wealth, and that attracts capital and talent. These are self-reinforcing, as capital and talent drive wealth/value creation and thus GDP.



Unsurprisingly, there is significant overlap between regions with high GDP and strong GDP expansion. The engines of growth attract capital and talent.



Those urban regions that pursue decentralized, networked, localized solutions will prosper as the adaptive advantages of these principles pay self-reinforcing dividends.
Those urban regions that pursue the hierarchical, one "solution" fits all, high-cost bureaucratic model of central states will sink into the same cesspool of corruption, cronyism, sclerosis and failure to adapt that characterize central states.

If you found value in this content, please join me in seeking solutions by becoming a $1/month patron of my work via patreon.com.
Check out both of my new books, Inequality and the Collapse of Privilege ($3.95 Kindle, $8.95 print) and Why Our Status Quo Failed and Is Beyond Reform ($3.95 Kindle, $8.95 print). For more, please visit the OTM essentials website.
1055  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 23, 2017, 04:46:55 PM
Feeling That China Lacks Moral Foundation Fueling Growth of Christianity
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/2017/04/18/feeling-that-china-lacks-some-kind-of-moral-foundation-fueling-growth-of-christianity/
Quote from: KARL HERCHENROEDER
In hopes of escaping the trappings of urbanization and economic inequality, Chinese citizens are increasingly turning toward Christianity for spiritual fulfillment, an expert said Monday.

Predominantly an atheist state, China in 1980 had 10 million Christians, according to the Catholic News Agency. That number jumped to 60 million in 2007, and in 2014, the Telegraphreported that China was on track to overtake the U.S. by 2030 as the most Christian nation on earth. According to the Pew Research Center, 70.6 percent of Americans, or 223.2 million people, identified as Christian in 2014. Last fall, the Chinese government enacted a new crackdown on churches, warning that spiritual sects need to pledge fidelity to the state first.

Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist Ian Johnson -- who has covered the region extensively since the 1980s for the Baltimore Sun, the Wall Street Journal and various other publications – said Monday at the Woodrow Wilson Center that people living in communist China’s increasingly crowded cities are becoming disillusioned with capitalism and there’s a widespread feeling that China lacks a moral compass.

Johnson discussed apathy that’s evident in Chinese public life and widely cited in social media, internet forums, articles, books and novels. When there’s an accident or someone is injured in public, for example, no one stops to help, he said, noting video evidence of this can be found widely on social media sites like Reddit.

“(People) feel that their society has become extremely harsh and unforgiving. And that it lacks some kind of moral foundation. … They turn to religious communities or faith-based communities as answers. And this is one of the reasons for the fast growth of Christianity in China, because they provide ready-made social groups,” he said.

Johnson’s book, The Souls of China: The Return of Religion After Mao, was released this month and describes why there’s a resurgence of religion in the People’s Republic put into place by communist leader Mao Zedong.

The issue of spiritual emptiness is not exclusive to the Chinese, Johnson said, opining that many in the U.S. probably share this disillusionment with modern capitalistic society. He pointed to populist movements in the west, which are building momentum against a system that many see as rigged, where too much weight is placed on economics.

“Society since the reform era has become defined by economics: to get rich is glorious. And that there aren’t too many other values in society,” Johnson said.

Like in the U.S., there is an increasing suspicion of unfairness in China. Johnson described a scenario that one might witness in Beijing: a Chinese citizen who worked for the government 15 years ago and was awarded 10 apartments in Beijing that are now worth about $1.5 million each. Johnson said this scenario is “perfectly possible.” That person can afford to drive around in sports cars and send their children to expensive schools, flaunting their wealth.

“People are not stupid. They realize this is how a lot of money was made in China, and they feel cheated,” he said.

Johnson admitted that there are plenty of brilliant entrepreneurs in China, as well.

“There are people who really deserve the millions that they make, but there’s a whole lot of people, probably the majority of millionaires in China, I would guess, earned this through what sociologists call rent-seeking efforts,” Johnson said.

According to Johnson, China lacks the mechanisms the U.S. has available for creating social change. In China, the media does not have free editorial discretion, and there are no trade unions – another reason many of the Chinese are turning inward and toward faith-based groups for answers.
1056  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: April 22, 2017, 08:14:30 PM

Religions played a crucial role in organizing and controlling early societies that formed during and after the agricultural revolution.

Today, religions are being replaced by a secular legal framework that is independent of any particular religion and is far superior to any fixed religious dogma. Progressive values are accepted more easily in a secular system than under a fixed religious regime. Recent example was the acceptance of homosexual marriages.

Religions today play ever diminishing role in controlling of societies in western democracies.  As a result their membership is in a constant decline.

They do occasionally fill the political void as experienced in Africa and the Middle East.

Religions are inflexible because of their holy books.  The dogma is preached as the only way forward.  So they don't allow any new ideas to come in and change the dogma.  Religions are forced to change by the ever growing outside pressures forcing them to accept the change. But they are inherently inflexible.  And in an extreme case of Islam completely fixed.

The less dogma is preached or used the more progressive the religion is.  That is why the secular world view is the most progressive system because it is not fixed, there is no rigid dogma to hinder the progress.

Religion specifically monotheism still plays this crucial role in today's society. This is the oversight that blinds today's progressivism aka leftism.

Progressivism is the blossoming of the aloe, the sudden squandering of the vital force which has accumulated in the long years when it was contented to be healthy and did not aspire after a vain display. The aloe is glorious for a single season. It progresses as it never progressed before. It admires its own excellence, looks back with pity on its earlier and humbler condition, which it attributes only to the unjust restraints in which it was held. It conceives that it has discovered the true secret of being ‘beautiful for ever,’ and in the midst of the discovery it dies.

Froude wrote the obituary long ago. Progressivism dies in a riot of song, sex, color, violence and greed. Most of what you wrote above is accurate. The secular world view is the most 'progressive' system. It is not fixed or grounded in any moral superstructure. It is a worldview without a foundation where ultimately anything goes. This worldview is the true poison for it is unsustainable, unhealthy and ultimately self destructive.

Quote from: A.W. Tozer
Whatever other factors may be present in an act of wrongdoing, folly is one that is never absent. To do a wrong act a man must for the moment think wrong; he must exercise bad judgment.

Sin, I repeat, in addition to anything else it may be, is always an act of wrong judgment. To commit a sin a man must for the moment believe that things are different from what they really are; he must confound values; he must see the moral universe out of focus; he must accept a lie as truth and see truth as a lie; he must ignore the signs on the highway and drive with his eyes shut; he must act as if he had no soul and was not accountable for his moral choices.

Sin is never a thing to be proud of. No act is wise that ignores remote consequences, and sin always does. Sin sees only today, or at most tomorrow; never the day after tomorrow, next month or next year. Death and judgment are pushed aside as if they did not exist...

Sin is basically an act of moral folly, and the greater the folly the greater the fool.
1057  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 22, 2017, 04:24:58 PM

Religions played a crucial role in organizing and controlling early societies that formed during and after the agricultural revolution.

Today, religions are being replaced by a secular legal framework that is independent of any particular religion and is far superior to any fixed religious dogma. Progressive values are accepted more easily in a secular system than under a fixed religious regime. Recent example was the acceptance of homosexual marriages.

Religions today play ever diminishing role in controlling of societies in western democracies.  As a result their membership is in a constant decline.

They do occasionally fill the political void as experienced in Africa and the Middle East.

Religions are inflexible because of their holy books.  The dogma is preached as the only way forward.  So they don't allow any new ideas to come in and change the dogma.  Religions are forced to change by the ever growing outside pressures forcing them to accept the change. But they are inherently inflexible.  And in an extreme case of Islam completely fixed.

The less dogma is preached or used the more progressive the religion is.  That is why the secular world view is the most progressive system because it is not fixed, there is no rigid dogma to hinder the progress.

Religion specifically monotheism still plays this crucial role in today's society. This is the oversight that blinds today's progressivism aka leftism.

Progressivism is the blossoming of the aloe, the sudden squandering of the vital force which has accumulated in the long years when it was contented to be healthy and did not aspire after a vain display. The aloe is glorious for a single season. It progresses as it never progressed before. It admires its own excellence, looks back with pity on its earlier and humbler condition, which it attributes only to the unjust restraints in which it was held. It conceives that it has discovered the true secret of being ‘beautiful for ever,’ and in the midst of the discovery it dies.

Froude wrote the obituary long ago. Progressivism dies in a riot of song, sex, color, violence and greed. Most of what you wrote above is accurate. The secular world view is the most 'progressive' system. It is not fixed or grounded in any moral superstructure. It is a worldview without a foundation where ultimately anything goes. This worldview is the true poison for it is unsustainable, unhealthy and ultimately self destructive.

Quote from: A.W. Tozer
Whatever other factors may be present in an act of wrongdoing, folly is one that is never absent. To do a wrong act a man must for the moment think wrong; he must exercise bad judgment.

Sin, I repeat, in addition to anything else it may be, is always an act of wrong judgment. To commit a sin a man must for the moment believe that things are different from what they really are; he must confound values; he must see the moral universe out of focus; he must accept a lie as truth and see truth as a lie; he must ignore the signs on the highway and drive with his eyes shut; he must act as if he had no soul and was not accountable for his moral choices.

Sin is never a thing to be proud of. No act is wise that ignores remote consequences, and sin always does. Sin sees only today, or at most tomorrow; never the day after tomorrow, next month or next year. Death and judgment are pushed aside as if they did not exist...

Sin is basically an act of moral folly, and the greater the folly the greater the fool.
1058  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 22, 2017, 04:51:59 AM

The claim that science had advanced despite religion completely overlooks the fundamental relationship between God, progress, and freedom. The only reason we have come as far as we have is due to the organizational superstructure provided by the worship of God.

If you are interested in the logic behind this I would refer you to the following posts:

Religion and Progress
The Nature of Freedom
The Beginning of Wisdom


And you are missing my point.  You don't need to overlay Christianity on progress and freedom.  You get progress and freedom despite Christianity.  Believe in unreal entities does not help you solve problems humanity is facing.  A fixed framework based on an outdated world view always hinders progress.  Religions were always in the business of enslaving not freedom.

Look in the historical context what this religion has done.  How can you say with a straight face religions contributed to progress?  You guys were killing people left and right, people who had progressive ideas or scientific breakthroughs.

Slavery, racial and gender inequality was a major thing in Christianity, until recently when the church had to give in.  Look how Amish communities treat women, how they treat children, how 'progressive' their communities are.  Christian communities few hundred years ago were more conservative and backwards than Amish communities of today.

Think of what you are saying.  Christianity was never about progress or freedom.  Quite the opposite.  We have a fucking proof in the living Amish and Mennonite communities, as well as in the thousands of people killed to STOP progress and enslave people on EVERY continent.

You can sell your religion propaganda in your church basement, but in an open forum it will be challenged with FACTS.

af_newbie you make several claims here and I will address them in turn.

Claim #1
Christianity and monotheism is in the business of slavery not freedom.

Freedom and God

Freedom is the right of the individual to choose how he controls himself, so long as he respects the equal rights of every other individual to control and plan his own life. Freedom is thus not the ability to do whatever you want. It is self-control, and self-government, no more, no less.

Quote from: Wendy McElroy
Thus "freedom is self-control" leads to the conclusion that as acting individuals, we must respect the rights and boundaries of others. In other words, every individual should control his or her actions such that they do not aggress or invade against other individuals or their rightfully owned properties. "Freedom" as "self-control" points up the dual nature of human existence: of the Self (mind, soul, and spirit) housed in a physical body. Human beings require both spiritual freedom and physical liberty

Ethical Monotheism for this is the underappreciated foundation that freedom rests upon. The Ten Commandments are often misunderstood as as restrictions. In reality they are the road map to freedom. To better understand this I highly recommend the following 5 minute video clip from Prager University.

God Wants Us To Be Free

Claim #2
Monotheism and Christianity leads to racial and gender inequality they are not 'progressive'

The Nature of Progressivism aka Leftism


Leftism is the religion which promises the individual he/she can entirely free, protected, while protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected.


Sounds very noble right? Read on...

All religions exist to protect the society (and the family) against the defection of the individual. Traditional religions argue that subjugation of some of the "evil" whims of the individual (e.g. extra-martial affairs) is necessary to maximize the success of the society, e.g. children who grow up without their fathers usually do statistically much worse in life in various metrics, including health.

Whereas, in leftism the "evil" is not "protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected". But what does this really mean? It is double-speak. It really means to steal from production so as to enable people to abandon their moral responsibilities so that the society can be utterly destroyed by hedonism and other ramifications of offering everyone "state-supported freedom" (which is a guaranteed megadeath hell in the future).

But don't dare tell the leftist, atheists that their idealism is corrupt, bankrupt, and disingenuous. They will gut you with a knife if you dare challenge the veracity of their beloved social justice.

"Entirely free" means you can do what ever you want and there are no NATURAL LAW ramifications (the State will always support your right to do what ever you want), as long as you support the State's right to protect and economically provide for everyone's right to do what ever they want. In other words, a "free for all" of political correctness and stealing.

But NATURAL LAW in inviolable. No State can protect every individual from the NATURAL LAW. And if you tell people they can be entirely free (including economic freedom for everyone and every whim), then you have lied.

In short, leftism is a Tragedy of the Commons. Thus is a false religion. It lies. It is Satan's religion.

To understand society we need to understand what our options are. There are only two ways to build and sustain a large and complex society. The first is oppression and slavery. Using oppression and slavery one can enforce control through violence. The second and far harder path is to build a free society but this path is challenging and slow as humans are not inherently designed to function in large groups. This was well stated by Henning Web Prentis, Jr who described how the loss of morality would take a people from freedom to bondage.

Quote from:  Henning Webb Prentis, Jr
Paradoxically enough, the release of initiative and enterprise made possible by popular self-government ultimately generates disintegrating forces from within. Again and again after freedom has brought opportunity and some degree of plenty, the competent become selfish, luxury-loving and complacent, the incompetent and the unfortunate grow envious and covetous, and all three groups turn aside from the hard road of freedom to worship the Golden Calf of economic security.

The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

It is moral degradation that leads to bondage for it is moral strengthening that allows free societies to be built in the first place.

This is why Ethical Monotheism is so important and the reason why so much that is good in the world came from the west. It is Ethical Monotheism that teaches us not to sin even when dealing with strangers.

Claim #3
Monotheism is a fixed framework based on an outdated world views and thus always hinders progress

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.

1.   Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2.   The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3.   The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.

A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.

In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.

Quote
In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan

There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbes was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review for common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbes had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.

Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom a lesson many today have forgotten.

Quote
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington


Claim #4
Religion is about controlling people

Religion and Control

In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations and yet is entirely unsustainable in its current form.

Religion indeed is a form of control, but that statement is meaningless without context. Ultimately the relevant question is what kind of control is religion. That answer of course varies depending on the religion we are talking about. The primitive idols worshiping pagans had horrific gods. These religions were tools of extreme top-down oppression and their extinction is welcome. See my post on Pagans and Human Sacrifice if you are interested in more on this.

However, belief in God especially individual belief in God coupled with a fear of God is something else entirely. A society where all individuals genuinely believed in and feared God would have very little defection. What defection did occur would be the result of ignorance not malice and even that would decline with time as knowledge progressed. An individual restrained only by a genuine belief and fear of God has complete operational autonomy he would willing choose only cooperation and never defection limited only by his knowledge of what actions constituted genuine cooperation.

Belief in God is top-down control. It is the purest manifestation of control. It is a form of control that ultimately enables a maximization of freedom. Rejecting God leads to higher levels of defection and consequentially less freedom.

Proverbs 9:10
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"

1059  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 21, 2017, 08:22:31 PM

First of all, if you think the "truth" is to kill gays and people who work on Sabbath, you need to have your head examined.

Second, of all, Christian church burned scientists at the stakes.  Do not forget Giordano Bruno and many like him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

The truth will set you free.

Science advanced in Christian Europe DESPITE the fact that Europe was predominantly Christian.

BTW, you conveniently forget the fact HOW Europe became Christian.  It was not by choice.  Early Christian church converted Europe by sword and fire.

So stop talking about Christianity and science in the same sentence.  The Catholic church is the most evil institution ever.  Even ISIS does not measure up to the Catholic church.

Christians were killing everybody where ever they went.  They are responsible for genocides in North, Central and South Americas.

As I said before I absolutely do not believe "truth" demands we kill gays and people who work on the Sabbath.

Almost no one believes that not even fundamentalists like the Amish or the ultra-orthodox Jews. You seem hung up on this particular strawman.

Your distain of Christianity is in my opinion blinding your objectivity. Yes sins have been committed in the name of Christianity. Human beings often embrace evil with or without religion. God teaches us how to improve if we listen.

The Catholic church is one of the many human institutions built to honor and serve God. All such institutions are guaranteed to have at best a pale and shallow understanding of God. If you are Catholic you believe the church is the best of these institutions with the most accurate understanding of God.

The Catholic Church is far from perfect. It has many flaws and many crimes have been committed in its name. At the same time it has contributed greatly to human progress.

The claim that science had advanced despite religion completely overlooks the fundamental relationship between God, progress, and freedom. The only reason we have come as far as we have is due to the organizational superstructure provided by the worship of God.

If you are interested in the logic behind this I would refer you to the following posts:

Religion and Progress
The Nature of Freedom
The Beginning of Wisdom
1060  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Christianity is Poison on: April 21, 2017, 01:38:31 PM

Where is the Bible for the modern world?  Where the fuck is it?  Where is the Bible that talks about the ethical dilemmas we face today?

Where is the Bible that would talk about transgender surgeries, human cloning, genetic therapies, stem cell research, space exploration and bringing alien life to Earth etc?
 
Where is the Bible that would talk about crypto currencies?

You read some ancient, irrelevant book and think you stand on a higher moral ground?  You are as fucked up as the Bronze Age people were.  Follow the Bible I dare you, so that we can lock you guys up and throw away the key.


Truth does not change as we grow in knowledge though our understanding of it may broaden to reveal previously unrecognized depths.

Christianity Gave Rise To Modern Science
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/christianity-gave-rise-modern-science
Quote from: William Reville

Modern science arose in Christian Europe in the 17th Century, not in China which had developed a sophisticated culture long before Europe, or in classical Greece. Many people credit Christianity with providing the missing ingredients that gave rise to modern science.

The way Christians think about creation has four significant consequences. First, Christians believe in a rational God who created an orderly world. Second, the world is worthy of study because it is God’s creation. Third, in order to understand God’s handiwork it is necessary to examine the world. Fourth, the universe is not itself divine so it is not irreverent to investigate it. Together these four features provided the intellectual setting necessary to spark off modern science.

Christians believe that the individual is made in the image of God and is therefore endowed with intrinsic value and bears individual responsibilities. This gave rise, for example, to opposition to slavery. The Church banned slavery between Christians and ended slavery in Europe by the end of the 11th Century.

The Christian image of the individual also sparked concern for individual property rights. Stark describes how capitalism was invented in Christian monasteries, motivated by the idea that we have a God-given obligation to make progress. Indeed, capitalism was in full flower in Europe centuries before Protestantism, the conventionally-accredited ‘founder’ of capitalism, arose.

By the end of the 13th Century modern type corporations operated in Italy with share ownership and profit distribution and merchant banks arose with branches around Europe.

There are very many good things in modern society. For example, children from all backgrounds can access education up to the highest levels. People live longer today than ever before, living standards are high compared to the past and little severe poverty remains. Women now have pretty much the same opportunities as men and a wide range of minority groups are now tolerated much better than in the past. And much more.

Consequences

Nevertheless, as European Christianity loses its influence negative consequences are clearly emerging. We now live in an age where individualism is rampant and the person is increasingly seen as the sum of his/her wants and desires.

There is widespread pressure to facilitate these wants/desires and to attach a human right to as many as possible, but little pressure to accompany new rights with responsibilities. Absolute values are denied and the notion of transcendent realities widely scorned.

Sexuality is commonly reduced to sensuality and the notion of gender fluidity has been enthusiastically embraced before being rigorously investigated. Material values predominate, periodically precipitating crises, e.g. the economic crash following the recent Celtic Tiger era. And current soaring suicide rates are surely related to diminished spiritual resources available to handle personal crises as formal religious observance declines.

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