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141  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: PPLNS on: January 06, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
the cex io guys deffered me to this link when asked why im having negative balance for holding 1gH/s
And that's bullshit on cex's part. PPLNS is a pooled mining reward system which you cannot possibly have a negative balance. You have a negative balance for buying a rip off cloud mining service which gets its "income" from a pooled mining reward.
I agree.
142  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: קבוצת מפגשי ביטקוין בישראל on: December 28, 2014, 09:27:41 AM
שרשרת הבלוקים כ - TCP/IP
http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/219456627/
143  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Israel Bitcoin Meetup Group on: December 28, 2014, 09:25:54 AM
A Bitcoin lecture, "Bitcoin 2.0 and OP_RETURNs - The Blockchain as TCP/IP?", has been scheduled for January 1, 19:00, in Google Campus Tel Aviv, Floor 34, Electra Tower, 98 Yigal Alon, Tel Aviv. Gathering at 18:30.

Details and registration at http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/219456627/.
144  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: Hebrew Translation for Numbers walla.co.il on: December 28, 2014, 09:22:20 AM
425.

Is that some sort of CAPTCHA?
145  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: מוכר 8875 stellar on: December 25, 2014, 03:18:45 PM
איך אני עושה את זה? יש לך סקייפ?
אישית לא התעסקתי עם סטלאר. תמצא יותר אנשים או בחלק באנגלית של הפורום הזה, או בעברית בפייסבוק, למשל https://www.facebook.com/groups/btcil/.
146  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Next Halving in 2016 Mining consequences ? on: December 25, 2014, 09:43:30 AM
The halving will have, approximately, the following 3 effects:

1. The Bitcoin price will go up by 26%
2. The difficulty will go down by 20%
3. The revenue per hash will go down by 20% (something which miners need to consider in the decisions they are doing now).

Of course, all 3 can also be affected by factors unrelated to the halving.
147  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: מוכר 8875 stellar on: December 23, 2014, 12:41:58 PM
לדעתי כדאי לך למכור דרך המערכת של סטלאר עצמה, תוך שימוש ב - Gateway כלשהו.
148  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / בחירות לאיגוד הביטקוין הישראלי on: December 23, 2014, 10:32:12 AM
מחר תתחלנה הבחירות לועד המנהל וועדת הביקורת של איגוד הביטקוין הישראלי. פרטים נוספים נמצאים ב -http://iba.bitcoin.org.il/?p=162.

התאריך האחרון להגשת מועמדות הוא היום (יום שלישי 23.12.2014). ההגשה מתבצעת בטופס goo.gl/forms/R1HfbHo3rb.

מחר (יום רביעי 24.12) תתקיים אסיפה כללית של חברי האיגוד - http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/219228842/.
149  Other / Off-topic / Re: The Jewish holidays thread on: December 18, 2014, 10:52:54 AM
I haven't maintained this thread lately... But it's Hanukkah again. So, happy Hanukkah!
http://youtu.be/8Y9-ZUsN9Oo
150  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: קבוצת מפגשי ביטקוין בישראל on: December 13, 2014, 08:01:21 PM
אסיפה כללית של איגוד הביטקוין הישראלי
http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/219228842/
151  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Israel Bitcoin Meetup Group on: December 13, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
A general assembly of the Israeli Bitcoin Association has been scheduled for December 24, 19:00, in Google Campus Tel Aviv, Floor 34, Electra Tower, 98 Yigal Alon, Tel Aviv. Gathering at 18:15.

Details and registration at http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/219228842/.
152  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: need a quick hebrew translation, paying .01 BTC on: December 10, 2014, 05:15:56 PM
If it really is quick and you post it here, I can do it without the 0.01 BTC...
153  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Israel Bitcoin Meetup Group on: November 24, 2014, 09:30:13 PM
"Bitcoin - Meet the Activists" has been scheduled for December 7, 19:00, in Google's Tel Aviv offices, Electra Tower, 98 Yigal Alon, Tel Aviv. Gathering at 18:15.

This event gives a rare opportunity to meet the "who's who" of Bitcoin activity in Israel. More than 40 of Israel's leading activists in the community, industry and academia will each spend a few minutes to talk about themselves and their Bitcoin projects.

This continues the annual tradition started in 2013 (http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/153644762/)

Details and registration at http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/218600297/.
154  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: קבוצת מפגשי ביטקוין בישראל on: November 24, 2014, 09:27:58 PM
פגוש את הפעילים - הצצה נדירה אל כלל פעילי הביטקוין בישראל.
http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/218600297/
155  Economy / Marketplace / Re: Bitcoil - Exchange bitcoins for ILS on: November 09, 2014, 10:22:56 PM
I'm looking to sell some btc for NIS...

can you make it happen??

Here is my thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=853177.msg9491460#msg9491460
The Bitcoil service has been inactive for a long while, but you may want to have a look at https://www.bitsofgold.co.il/.
156  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Funding network security in the future on: November 03, 2014, 02:17:28 PM
The tragedy of the commons relates to unregulated use of common resources.

I don’t think this is any way relevant. Mining resources are not under common ownership and there is no common right to use these resources. They are generally owned by private entities trying to make a commercial profit and you have no right to make them mine your transaction. Miners can choose what transactions they mine so the use of this resource is regulated by the miners.
The common resource here is abstract. It is the willingness of users to pay tx fees. By accepting low-fee txs, a miner consumes this resource (that is, makes users less willing to pay tx fees) for his own benefit, at the expense of the total benefit of all miners. And, since Bitcoin needs miners, this is a problem for all Bitcoin users.

Nobody suggested that the mining devices themselves are a common good.

The demand curve for a product or service shows the relationship between the price of a product and the willingness and ability of consumers to pay.
In traditional economics willingness to pay for a product is not an abstract resource it is a variable in the demand calculation.

As I pointed out, if a certain percentage of miners offer lower fees (such as the charity miners) then this will mean that consumers will have the choice of how fast their transaction is likely to be processed. The fees charged by commercial miners will probably reflect the amount of discounted transaction mining available. Although all of this discounted mining will have to be paid for one way or another.

A miner consuming a ‘willingness to pay’ resource for his own benefit makes no sense to me.
Suppose all the miners form a cartel. They will have no problem funding themselves; they can all agree not to include any tx that doesn't pay high fees. The users would pay this fee because they have no other choice.

Some users will try to pay a fee lower than the cartel's threshold. One miner decides to defect from the cartel; he includes in his block all these low-fee transactions. This costs him nothing, so this is a net profit for him (he benefits).

Seeing this, users will know that even if they don't pay the cartel's high fees, they can still get their tx included eventually. Thus, their willingness to pay high fees is lower (that is, the miner consumed their willingness). Thus, more users will try to pay low fees, and the total revenue of all miners decreases.

But it's not just the one miner. Every miner will, individually, have an incentive to include low-fee txs. This means that even with a low fee, it's easy to get a tx to the block. Thus, no user will want to pay high fees, and the total revenue of miners will be low (this is the tragedy - for the miners, and due to the effect on network health, for all Bitcoin users).

This is completely analogous to the classical instance of tragedy of the commons, where all herders would benefit if they all grazed just their fair share, but everyone is incentivized to defect and overgraze, depleting the resource and causing everyone to suffer.

I didn’t quote blindly. I read it and thought it was relevant to the point I was making. The point I was making was regarding particular economic arguments that used the tragedy of the commons as their premise. I was not making any argument as to whether the equilibrium reached by free market economics would ‘secure’ a network.
If we agree there is a problem (do we?), and we understand its moving parts, it doesn't really matter whether we call it "tragedy of the commons" or not. Though, I do believe that calling it that helps us gain insights from existing knowledge regarding tragedy of the commons problems.

We do not necessarily want to keep mining costs artificially high. What we actually want is to have a network that is secure against hash rate attacks. These are different things.
Sure, but unless we find a better way to keep the network secure, keeping mining costs artificially high is a subgoal.
157  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Funding network security in the future on: November 03, 2014, 09:07:55 AM
The tragedy of the commons relates to unregulated use of common resources.

I don’t think this is any way relevant. Mining resources are not under common ownership and there is no common right to use these resources. They are generally owned by private entities trying to make a commercial profit and you have no right to make them mine your transaction. Miners can choose what transactions they mine so the use of this resource is regulated by the miners.
The common resource here is abstract. It is the willingness of users to pay tx fees. By accepting low-fee txs, a miner consumes this resource (that is, makes users less willing to pay tx fees) for his own benefit, at the expense of the total benefit of all miners. And, since Bitcoin needs miners, this is a problem for all Bitcoin users.

Nobody suggested that the mining devices themselves are a common good.

Miners will simply set prices at what it is worth for them to mine and make a reasonable profit. With no block size limit they will be able to set the fee at which they can turn a profit at a lower level.
Quote
economic theory says that in a competitive market, supply, demand, and price will find an equilibrium where the price is equal to the marginal cost to suppliers plus some net income (because suppliers can always choose to do something more profitable with their time or money)
(Gavin’s blog)
Quoting this theory blindly is failing to acknowledge some specific characteristics of Bitcoin mining. Most importantly, that we want to keep mining costs artificially high. Absent any limiting mechanism, sure, the market will reach an equilibrium... An equilibrium where tx fees are low, total hashrate is low, and the network is vulnerable to hashrate attacks.

In a healthy network with a high hashrate, the main cost of a tx is amortized, and the marginal cost is negligible. Hence, having the price equal to the marginal cost (as in the quote) is a disaster.

Thought of another way: Mining has a positive externality which is difficult to monetize, due to "race to the bottom" effects. Left to the market's own devices, no mining will be done. Hence we need some way to coordinate players into providing this externality.


Speaking of caps: I'd like to stress the point that there are two separate costs in the Bitcoin network, each should be addressed in its own way:
1. The marginal cost of propagating, verifying and storing transactions. Caps on the block data size and amount of ECDSA signatures help with funding this.
2. The amortized cost of hashing blocks to secure the network. This has nothing to do with data size, and using data size caps to fund this is misguided and creates perverse incentives.

Meni

Thanks for this interesting comment.  I guess you are correct that the amortised cost of hashing blocks has nothing to do with the data size.  However as you say, knowing the value for the user is difficult.  I am not sure of the value of bitcoins sent is a good proxy, because of additional layers like colored coins and who is to say that a transaction for one person buying medical care has less value to the other than a millionaire pointlessly moving money between wallets?  Why not assume all transactions are equal?  The number of transactions may be the best proxy.
Additional layers are an issue to consider, but even so I believe value sent is a better proxy than all transactions being equal.

Regarding your other point:
1. I hope you realize that my suggestion makes things easier for the person paying medical care. The quantity sent is lower for him, so he is expected to pay less fees.
2. I'm talking about value in the economic sense, not in the emotional, personal sense. Someone who is rich and is sending large amounts is generally willing to pay higher fees. The willingness is an advantage, and should be used to fund the network.
3. If the moving of money between wallets is "pointless", I see no harm in a policy that discourages it. If it's not pointless (security concerns etc.), then the sender is willing to pay for it, and we should use that.

Therefore I would alter my “transaction fee targeting”, mentioned https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813324.msg9208935#msg9208935 to be the following:

I propose the following rule to determine the number of transactions in a block limit, once the block reward is low
The number of transactions in a block limit would increase (or decrease), by X%, if total transaction fees in the last N blocks is Y Bitcoin or more (or less).  
This kind of dynamic rules can have very unstable, unpredictable behavior. They should be approached with great care.


Most of the conversation seems to have been about ensuring sufficient transaction fees are paid to miners. But what about the verifiers? Currently, all tx validation is done by volunteers. I think Satoshi initially intended for validators to double as miners, but in a world where the two are largely mutually distinct, how do we support the verifiers? And if we can't, isn't the network doomed anyway?
This is true, and I believe research such as the Red Balloons paper is a step towards resolving this issue.

Anyway, I expect the cost of verifying to be much lower than of hashing, so finding a way to fund that should be easier.

Related to this is something I have not seen considered: the upper limit on hash speed per device.
There is no known physical limit on computation. (There are some erroneous limits occasionally quoted, based on the physical limits of erasing information; but in truth, it is not known that computation requires erasing information proportionally).

And even if there is:
1. We're decades away from being anywhere near it
2. I'm not sure why the rest of your scenario would follow.


I couldn't resist peeking at the literature; the first hit on a google search for "experimental economics free rider" turns up this 1984 paper:

Quote
Both conventional wisdom and economic theory have been called into question recently by a series of research papers which report experimental studies of collective decision-making about public goods. Almost without exception, these papers have reported results that cast serious doubt upon the importance - and, in some cases, even upon the very existence - of the free rider problem.
AFAICT, this paper discusses the methodological errors in those research papers that dismissed the free rider problem, and itself did not find evidence against the free rider problem.

Anyway, in the real world the free rider problem obviously exists.
158  Local / עברית (Hebrew) / Re: קבוצת מפגשי ביטקוין בישראל on: November 03, 2014, 08:24:08 AM
השיטה המוניטרית
http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/217293052
159  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Israel Bitcoin Meetup Group on: November 03, 2014, 08:22:57 AM
A Bitcoin lecture, "The monetary system", has been scheduled for November 12, 19:00, in Google Campus Tel Aviv, Electra Tower, 98 Yigal Alon, Tel Aviv. Gathering at 18:30.

Details and registration at http://www.meetup.com/bitcoin-il/events/217293052/.
160  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Funding network security in the future on: November 02, 2014, 11:06:37 AM
And from this, we derive how we should fund this cost using tx fees. We want to keep tx fees artificially high, so that the total cost of mining is high, so that the network is secure.
How do you imagine you will be able to keep transaction fees artificially high?

I can imagine a future with 1MB blocks full of zero-transaction-fee transactions (all fees paid off-blockchain through special cozy relationships between big merchants/exchanges and big miners. Or simply big merchants/exchanges mining their own transactions).
It's fine if miners will be funded out-of-band. But I think it will be difficult to do this while keeping the market decentralized and competitive.

My suggestion for keeping tx fees artificially high is to place a hardcoded cap on the total amount of coins transferred in each block.

I think network security CAN be funded through transaction fees-- that is easy, if you want to buy some security just attach a larger-than-strictly-necessary-to-get-confirmed fee to your transactions.

I don't think we know yet whether network security WILL be funded through transaction fees; there might be a free-rider problem that keeps people who want a secure network from actually paying for a secure network.
I think tragedy of the commons is inevitable if no cap of any sort is placed on blocks. Hence my cap suggestion above.

This is where it would be lovely for some academic economists who have studied the free-rider problem to chime in and predict what is likely to happen, and how other markets have solved (or not) the problem.
Agreed.
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