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1581  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 07, 2013, 05:19:05 AM
- After 27 coin years it employs a system of voting to manipulate the interest rate of the block chain (users act as the central bank and regulate the rate of inflation)
You're assuming that the users of your currency know best what is good for them.
(1) I think this is not true, because complex systems are not easy to understand. Even scientists are struggling when it comes to economics.
(2) Even if you find a fair voting procedure you will suffer from a very democratic dilemma: Why would a majority vote for the interests of a minority, even if the interests of the minority are more existential and deserve protection than those of the majority.

Some people will vote for value stability and adjust inflation to achieve it.
Others would prefer the value of the coin going up and get rich.

I think this should better be decided by design. There is a market for both, so most probably there will be at least two major cryptocurrencies in the future:
One with fixed supply, eventually implementing a minor inflation. This would be cyber-gold. A commodity
One with stabilized value. Optimal for day to day usage. A currency
Well, if you freeze the supply increase at 0% (as with bitcoin) you can problem ensure that the currency will continuously go up in value over time in comparison to inflationary fiat.  I think there needs to be some mechanism for the regulation of long term supply increases, and the easiest way it to allow people to vote based on the PoW or PoS pool that they join.  There will be a lot of politics for such a chain, and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing.

One thing I'd been considering was allowing for the easy creation of other chains than the main chain, then being able to join and mine these chains too by selecting them from a list in the client, e.g., as you would select a channel in an IRC client.  This could let people play with the parameters as they saw fit.

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- New block reward adjustment algorithm is given that yields an 8% decrease in block reward per year
Does that mean that miners will successively live from transaction fees, like in bitcoin? This is important for my next remark.
They will live from both fees and block reward.
I plan to sell about half of the network fees to kickstarter investors for the first five years (I don't think I can get >$50k for development otherwise), but at this time PoW block reward >> fee amounts, if Bitcoin is any indicator.

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- PoW and PoS systems are designed to happily coexist, with favour slightly given to the PoW system
If you favour PoW, you sacrifice an achievement of PPC being energy efficiency. Your coin will suffer from a scaling problem due to energy consumption.

Have you thought about using PoB?

As others have stated, PoB still seems like science fiction to me and needs further work.  I don't really think energy efficiency is a massive issue either; for instance, we waste about somewhere less than 137 mW/(cm^2 s) of photons every day when they collide with the earth's surface and do nothing except heat it via atomic absorption and excitation.  Just by making more of the network run on solar energy by increasing investment in solar energy because of increasing demand for energy itself we can increase global energy efficiency, which is something people often fail to consider (the impact of energy demand on finding new, cleaner, less expensive, and more abundant sources of electrons to power things).  Every couple years major breakthroughs are made in solar panel array technology that further increases yield while driving down the price of the panels.
1582  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 07, 2013, 05:04:46 AM
New version of the whitepaper is out.  Download from the front page.

Changes:
- New consensus-model PoS system added, old PoS system removed
- Section on Coloured Coins added
- Section on lightweight client added
- Lots of typos fixed

I have not had a chance to read over it yet and fixed typos in the last couple of sections, so forgive me if you find a bunch (they are probably present).

My brain is toast from working on this for almost 10 hours straight, so I'm going to go relax.

BILLIONS OF PEOPLE MESSAGING ME VIA PM -- I HAVE NOT HAD TIME TO REPLY TO MESSAGES BUT WILL GET BACK TO YOU ASAP.  THANKS.

Hello, had to stop posting in these forums to ration my time and brainpower. However, I'm impressed and excited by your paper. I'm believe you can accomplish something here.


COMMENTS:

The ticketing system seems basically solid. I like it.  But ...

1) Let's Review Yay/Nay voting?

If I vote Nay and the block is accepted, then my stake gets used and the reward is confiscated. If I vote Yea and the block is accepted, I get a stake reward.
If I vote Nay and the block is rejected, then my stake gets used and the reward is confiscated. If I vote Yea and the block is rejected, then my stake gets used and the reward is confiscated.

Voting Yay is the dominant strategy. Therefore, why have Yay/Nay voting at all? Why not just require unanimous Yay's or reject the block?
Fault tolerance (it's not guaranteed that you will find exactly the same hash) and because if you reject blocks with only one Nay vote you may not invalidate any block you'd like to with only 20%.  10% stake means half the blocks, etc.  You also don't want to invalidate blocks based one one or two MIA signatories, as with 3 signatories the chain still works fine.

You also add a very easy attack vector by unanimous voting requirement, as you only need to DDoS one node per block to control the chain.

This brings up another important point, though.  As described in the paper the system of ledger hashes only works well if transaction volume is relatively small.  Ideally, you need a system which records the time of all incoming transactions then compares it to the list of transactions in the block, and decides what the probability is that the PoW miner saw precisely those transactions.  For instance, if it saw only one new stake transactions but you saw five, and you saw these all five seconds from each other right after the previous block had been solved, the probability that the PoW miner is manipulating the chain by excluding PoS submission transactions is very high.

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2) Have you have specified what happens when winning ticket holder(s) abstain?

Does this mean no block is mined? That's what should happen I think.
Unredeemed tickets are ignored.  If 3/5 ticket holders vote Yea on the block, the block is considered secure.  If 2/5 ticket holders vote Yea on the block and the others abstain, the block is kept but should not be considered a hard confirmation. Tickets expire after 2^16 blocks unless the ticket is never called upon by the lottery, in which case a brief extension is allowed until the ticket comes up.  However, if the ticket comes up in the lottery and the stakeholder is MIA, the ticket expires after 2^16 blocks.

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3) Ticket extensions

You also do not want afk tickets to accumulate, so the extension thing worries me a bit. Accumulation of afk tickets eventually converges to a breakdown of the blockchain. To avoid this you need to purge afk ticket holders from the voting rolls. Perhaps you plan to have predictable auditing of afk ticket holders via the extension process? That's a good start, but random auditing provides stronger incentives and saves blockchain space. My suggestion is to add one optional signature to each valid block. If you provide it, then the subsequent block gets a PoW difficulty subsidy. If you fail to provide it, the block is still valid, but the afk ticket gets invalidated.  (The difficulty subsidy provides an incentive for PoW miners to recognize his signature if it appears.)
Well, it's equally easy to destroy unclaimed tickets right after the lottery block if you wanted to, for instance if you thought people were hoarding them for a malicious attack.  I guess, really this is the easiest way to do so and may add it into the next draft.

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4) Inflation voting for the distant future
 
PoW voting does not have a precedent and worries me. Why wouldn't PoW voters continuously vote to up the PoW rewards, redistributing all the wealth to themselves. This could be a huge problem.

PoS voting has a precedent in corporations and I am comfortable with it. PoS voters benefit by voting down PoW issuance below the optimal level (market cap maximizing). You are not letting them mess with the PoW/PoS issuance ratio much, so they will do this by voting against inflation. This a very minor issue. PoS voters wouldn't do anything that threatens the currency. Therefore, I think PoS voting will work well even if the incentives are not quite perfect.  

If you mix the two voting types, let PoS voters have a majority of votes (say two-thirds or more).

This is the most controversial aspect of the blockchain and will probably require more input from economists.
I think the assumption that PoS workers wouldn't do anything to threaten the currency is naive; for instance, if a 51% PoS minter doesn't like a pool on the network, they can simply invalidate all the blocks it solves on the network and destroy it without massively affecting the function of the blockchain.

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5) Lightweight blockchain.

http://www.bitfreak.info/files/pp2p-ccmbc-rev1.pdf seemed like a good, well-organized idea. Maybe this could influence your lightweight client in some way. Have no expertise here.

I need to look over that paper some more before I can give some more feedback as to the system it proposes.  The method I proposed should be very fast for both the accession of values and the manipulation of values for the lightweight client.
1583  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Designing the next generation digital currency! on: May 06, 2013, 10:01:06 PM
Proof of work hashing  is a stone age "hit problems with clubs to brute force them into submission" primitive outmoded approach to the consensus problem, maybe? Ripple apparently takes very little time to achieve consensual irreversible transactions.

If I wanted centralization and a closed source server code, I'd use my credit card.
1584  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Litecoin and FPGA/ASIC resistance on: May 06, 2013, 09:08:19 PM
I've seen a few posts around here and at least one listing on cryptostocks or LTCGlobal that are building FPGA's for mining Litecoins, is this really possible? I thought the whole idea behind Litecoin was that it was resistant to this stuff? Does this mean that Litecoin ASICs will roll out sometime too?

Yes, kind of, probably

http://www.openwall.com/lists/crypt-dev/2013/03/21/1

The issue is that C. Percival's algorithm has a "feature" called time-memory tradeoff (TMTO) also known as space-time tradeoff.  Basically, you can trade more ALU cycles for less memory usage.

Very smart people have tried to eliminate this problem and failed; I won't pretend I've solved it with MC2, I myself am only using an alternative algorithm to further delay FPGA introduction.
1585  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 06, 2013, 04:57:54 AM
Again with the shitty MEGA host choice, can we get another mirror?
I will have an actual host within the next couple of days, sorry.  Where do you want it?
1586  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 06, 2013, 04:52:33 AM
New version of the whitepaper is out.  Download from the front page.

Changes:
- New consensus-model PoS system added, old PoS system removed
- Section on Coloured Coins added
- Section on lightweight client added
- Lots of typos fixed

I have not had a chance to read over it yet and fixed typos in the last couple of sections, so forgive me if you find a bunch (they are probably present).

My brain is toast from working on this for almost 10 hours straight, so I'm going to go relax.

BILLIONS OF PEOPLE MESSAGING ME VIA PM -- I HAVE NOT HAD TIME TO REPLY TO MESSAGES BUT WILL GET BACK TO YOU ASAP.  THANKS.
1587  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][YAC] yacoin: yet another altcoin. Release in 24 hours. on: May 06, 2013, 01:34:25 AM
so what are those 3 scrypt params? gpu got ddr5 yes however not alot of it Smiley so that can help cpu computers with large ram as conventional ram is cheap Smiley Taco can you provide link to that thread you mention?

N = memory/computation complexity factor
r = memory complexity factor
p = parallelization factor (1 = hardest)

Once you get into big memory sizes for CPU calculation of sCrypt hashes using either very large N or r values, you get get a massive dependence on memory bandwidth rather than any computational function.

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Due to the curvature of space-time, this solution would obviously create a singularity that will swallow earth and then the rest of the universe.
Wink
1588  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][YAC] yacoin: yet another altcoin. Release in 24 hours. on: May 06, 2013, 12:29:51 AM
Also once released surely it wont take long fro gpu miners to twick miner? Anyone experimented with diff scrypt params here to see how cpu and gpu performs? Smiley

As long as gpu memory has way more memory bandwidth than cpu, gpu will be much faster regardless of N value, I would expect.  In fact, the greater the N value the greater a gpu will hash compared to cpu, because the dependence on memory bandwidth increases.

There is data on hash time in the memcoin thread, once you hit the ddr3 memory with a cpu it's clear that the bandwidth of dram limits you.
1589  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][YAC] yacoin: yet another altcoin. Release in 24 hours. on: May 06, 2013, 12:26:31 AM
Another thing to note is that changing N changes the amount of memory required. This will (eventually) make gpu mining not worthwhile and much less efficient than cpu mining. ASICs and FPGAs (in their current renditions) won't even come close. This will be a coin ruled by fast memory, and lots of it.

Not really true. Space-time tradeoff will still allow efficient mining by fpga/asic/gpu.
1590  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Merged Scrypt mining? on: May 06, 2013, 12:23:58 AM
In consideration for netcoin/mc2
1591  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][YAC] yacoin: yet another altcoin. Release in 24 hours. on: May 06, 2013, 12:15:29 AM
See the original memcoin thread for why this is a bad idea

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122256.0
1592  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: GUIMiner-scrypt: A GUIMiner fork for mining scrypt chains on: May 04, 2013, 09:09:34 PM
Integrated the moddeed cudaminer yet?

Still can't pull output from it with python (trust me I've tried)

MC2/netcoin has been keeping me busy
1593  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 04, 2013, 06:04:13 PM
I need to address something else.  I'm asked a lot about the adoption of some kind of useful work for a coin. Netcoin will not directly incorporate this.  However, I'm looking to incorporate coloured "coins" in subsequent editions of the whitepaper, which can be arbitrarily generated by an address.  So, say you have an address owned by Folding@Home.  This address can then generate x many coloured 'Folding@Home' coins (which contain an originator field with the address from which they spawned).  These coins can then be traded for NTC using the blockchain as an intermediary and two conditional transactions dependent on the presence of the other transaction.  This facilitates non-NTC coins from whatever source and also decentralized exchanges (as the blockchain can be used as an escrow).
1594  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: May 04, 2013, 06:00:30 PM
Yes. This. This to infinity

I guess you could use an eventual number of coins aiming in the trillions -- but it has the possibility of making people feel like the coins are worthless in the short term.
1595  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: That's it, I've lost hope in the future of crypto currencies... on: May 03, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
The problem that I see is that this situation will eventually drain legitimacy from Bitcoins, if you can go to Vicurex or BTC-e and exchance your shitcoins for Bitcoins puts it on the same level.

Let people lose their life savings on a game of pump and dump chicken if they want to.  It only makes me more coins.  Alt chains have been around since right after the introduction of Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is still 100% alive.
1596  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: That's it, I've lost hope in the future of crypto currencies... on: May 03, 2013, 07:14:41 PM
I welcome all new copycoins that will pull hashing away from the Litecoin network, so that I can get more Litecoins.
1597  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Feathercoin: First Vircurex, then btc-e, then MtGox? But wait ... on: May 03, 2013, 07:11:42 PM
LTC is almost exactly the same currency, but will block halve two years before FTC --> FTC is more or less another pump and dump...

Quote
FeatherCoin has a block reward of 200 coins and will have a total of 336 million coins. This makes it four times that of LiteCoin, this is the same position that LiteCoin was set against BitCoin.

Default port is 9336 - Forwarding this port can help if you have connection problems
Default RPC port is 9337 - This is the port you point your miners towards if solo mining
Block target is 2.5 minutes
Difficulty changes every 2016 blocks
Block reward halves every 840,000 blocks
http://feathercoin.com/about/

I haven't even switched my miners over to participate in the pump and dump because it seems like too much effort.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying the lower difficulty of the LTC network. C:
1598  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: GUIMiner-scrypt: A GUIMiner fork for mining scrypt chains on: May 03, 2013, 06:56:45 AM
guiminer-scrypt sets its own environmental values rather than writing them to the registry

you can set them yourself using
Code:
setx GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT 100
Note that this sets them for all consoles not the one you run that command in (windows is really weird)
1599  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] cudaMiner - a new litecoin mining application [Windows/Linux] on: May 03, 2013, 06:50:24 AM

yay 185khash with 680 not overclocked.

now how do I get the miner to connect to COINOTRON?

0.02BTC reward!
get mining_proxy.exe from ltcmine.ru
mining_proxy.exe -pa scrypt -o coinotron.com -p 3334
connect cudaminer to localhost port 8332, use normal miner password
1600  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: GUIMiner-scrypt: A GUIMiner fork for mining scrypt chains on: May 03, 2013, 06:21:20 AM
Any updates on the integration of CUDAMiner? Smiley

Waiting to see if the next update brings console output in the form of stdout that python can read, otherwise I have to hack cudaminer and recompile it myself.  Right now I'd like to avoid that.
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