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161  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 18, 2022, 08:44:56 PM
Amazing match, exceptional teams, and a wonderful atmosphere. Both teams deserve a big round of applause. I'm sensing the first goal of France would be a disaster for Argentina, it seems by a few matches back, we can see a conceded goal at a crucial time will make Argentina lose its momentum. In the end, we can see France make its tied of the game.

The extra time is truly a remarkable point of the match, both teams truly have a winner mentality until the end of time. Tough luck for France, Argentina truly deserved it. Personally, I'm happy for Messi to accomplish this prestige championship. He truly deserved it. What a time to be alive to see such kind of player.
Argentina fought very hard for this victory and it's nice to see that they came out victorious. Messi has finally become a football legend that is in the same class as Maradona and Pele. Congratulations to him and the Argentine team. I wanted the French team to win the march because they had a lot of black players that I respect so much. But it's still great that another team won the cup.

Mbappe made history today when he became the only player to score a hat trick in the world cup finals. He has proved that he is a potential winner of the Ballon D'or shortly. Congratulations to him for becoming the highest goal scorer in the competition. Qatar also deserves praise for becoming the first Arabic nation to host the world cup and they accomplished this goal in a grand style.

Yeah, probably this is going to be Messi's final accomplishment that will relegate his status to be one of the greats, in line with Maradona, Pele.

As I have said before, I favor Argentina to win, not because I don't like the French team, but Messi should get and deserved this one. So congrats to the whole country of Argentina, for sure they are going to celebrate it till the team comes back to their home soil.

Lots of give and take to this World Cup, also congrats to Qatar for hosting this biggest event in football.
Finally the World Cup trophy was completed.  Without the touch of a player like Messi, this trophy would have remained incomplete forever.  Congratulations to all.
Oh what a great game I saw. The World Cup is over, Argentina has confirmed the World Cup victory. They are now the 2022 FIFA World Cup Qatar champions. France team played impossibly well but their luck did not help them.
This is really the final of the World Cup.  This match is the final of the World Cup.  A breathtaking game.  But as France has bad luck.  Likewise, Lionel Messi deserved this trophy.  Enjoyed all the endings a lot.  Congratulations to both teams.
162  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 18, 2022, 08:24:33 PM
One of the best matches of modern history, right at the end of the world cup.
When Argentina managed to score 2-0, I thought the match was already over, I trusted the Argentinian defense will be enough to avoid french goals. I was wrong, this match was not suitable for those with heart problems.

In the end, France showed its value and anyone could win this final, I am glad Argentina got the cup.
This is a big accomplishment for South-american football, Maradona would be proud.
It's indeed one of the best football final ever. The french first half substitute really made a difference and help to bring them back in the game and Mbappe was terrific, the player of the game for me.
Mbappe fight messi and the person that give mbappe room to perform well is coman and without that mbappe wouldn't have perform well, so France players was not playing well for the first half but immediately the second half and substitution start, it's when France had a relief and started playing well, how i wish they played well in the first half either they would have defeated Argentina, because the second was very terrible to Argentina.
despite Mbappe score a hatric but this all went in vein . . he was so sad that it was hard for him to walk  up the stage to get the golden boot award.
The tears of joy and sorrow rolled down the whole stadium
Maybe because of Messi's luck, Argentina won today.  However, the way Mbappe has led France today is really difficult for Mbappe.  As he gets older he will get more playing opportunities.  Maybe we will see Mbappe with the trophy again in the future.
163  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 18, 2022, 08:03:25 PM
Amazing match, exceptional teams, and a wonderful atmosphere. Both teams deserve a big round of applause. I'm sensing the first goal of France would be a disaster for Argentina, it seems by a few matches back, we can see a conceded goal at a crucial time will make Argentina lose its momentum. In the end, we can see France make its tied of the game.

The extra time is truly a remarkable point of the match, both teams truly have a winner mentality until the end of time. Tough luck for France, Argentina truly deserved it. Personally, I'm happy for Messi to accomplish this prestige championship. He truly deserved it. What a time to be alive to see such kind of player.
Argentina fought very hard for this victory and it's nice to see that they came out victorious. Messi has finally become a football legend that is in the same class as Maradona and Pele. Congratulations to him and the Argentine team. I wanted the French team to win the march because they had a lot of black players that I respect so much. But it's still great that another team won the cup.

Mbappe made history today when he became the only player to score a hat trick in the world cup finals. He has proved that he is a potential winner of the Ballon D'or shortly. Congratulations to him for becoming the highest goal scorer in the competition. Qatar also deserves praise for becoming the first Arabic nation to host the world cup and they accomplished this goal in a grand style.

Yeah, probably this is going to be Messi's final accomplishment that will relegate his status to be one of the greats, in line with Maradona, Pele.

As I have said before, I favor Argentina to win, not because I don't like the French team, but Messi should get and deserved this one. So congrats to the whole country of Argentina, for sure they are going to celebrate it till the team comes back to their home soil.

Lots of give and take to this World Cup, also congrats to Qatar for hosting this biggest event in football.
Finally the World Cup trophy was completed.  Without the touch of a player like Messi, this trophy would have remained incomplete forever.  Congratulations to all.
164  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 05:30:23 PM

We are nearing the end of the game and Croatia is leading 2-1.  Although Morocco tried its best, Croatia played more ball.  They can't take advantage of clear goal positions either.  It's 87 minutes and the Croats don't look like they're going to score easily.  Anyway, being one of the top four teams for Morocco is also a great achievement.
It was a good match, I'm glad that Croatia won, it's a worthy result. And for Morocco to be in the top four at the world championship is better than anyone can expect, I understand that when you get so far, you want even more, but they played beyond their abilities and showed a good game. Now we have the main question, who will be the champion? I think it will be France again.
actually the results of the Croatia vs Morocco match were in accordance with what was predicted. and Croatia deserved to win in this match. croatia is more to play safe in this match as usual. being in the top four is a great achievement for morocco. because since the beginning of the 2022 World Cup no one suspected that Morocco could get this far. and now there is one more game left in the top of the final. i.e. Argentina vs France.
Morocco has come this far is truly surprising and impressive.  Morocco's familiarity grew.  Croatia was the runner-up team in last year's final.  This victory was theirs.  The next World Cup will be easy for Morocco and Morocco will start as favourites.  Now there is one more match left in the World Cup and that is France vs Argentina.  France is the last world champion team and Argentina has the best Lionel Messi in the world.  It's going to be a very exciting game.
165  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 05:10:02 PM
Croatia is now playing very defensively. But Morocco are trying to attack brilliantly so that they can repay the goal. But I think Croatia's style of play suggests that they will play defensively and secure victory.
And that was the very mistake the Moroccans made, thinking they had all the time, not attacking brilliantly right from the very moment the Croatians scored their second goal, because the Moroccans had all the opportunities and chances, but there inability of not targeting the goal post from a distance each moment just like the Croatians did, is what have cost them the chance of not emerging the third position of this year's world cup.. But all the same, congratulations to Croatia for finally winning this game. Those guys really deserve it.
Croatia played very aggressively.  Especially where there are players like Luka Modriz.  However, Morocco played well enough not to convert the opportunities due to a lack of finishing.  Congrats to Croatia but big congrats to Morocco too and everyone will remember their name.  They have defeated many big teams.
166  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 04:47:21 PM
Both teams have some good players but Modric is world class plus his experience. I'd say Croatia will easily control the midfield and create many chances.
lol just typing this 2 fast goals in  Grin
Modric was a world class player but i shall remind you that he is not young again. His stamina might not be the same like the young player who played for morocco. Let's see how old generation from croatia will try to win against young generation from morocco.
Croatia may become the most favorite team in this match but we will not see the result until the match will begin very soon.
Granted, Madrid is not young, but Croatia has a two-goal lead so far thanks to its ingenuity.  On the other hand, the Moroccan young players are creating very good opportunities but are unable to use the opportunities due to inexperience.  Although Hakimi has some flair as a result of playing big leagues, he cannot succeed on his own.  Let's see what happens last.
167  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 04:30:14 PM
Both teams have some good players but Modric is world class plus his experience. I'd say Croatia will easily control the midfield and create many chances.
lol just typing this 2 fast goals in  Grin
if you look at the way the two teams play, they are very strong, Morocco replied to Croatia's goal quickly until the score is now a draw, the two teams failed to reach the final, at least they wanted to be the third winner of this world cup, even though they failed in the semifinals yesterday, I think Morocco will win if it happens extra time and penalty shootout
As a relatively new team, Morocco did better than Croatia this time.  So in the end, Morocco might score one more goal to score 2-2 and go to extra time or a tiebreaker and Morocco will take third place. And they deserve it.
168  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 04:09:39 PM
Both teams have some good players but Modric is world class plus his experience. I'd say Croatia will easily control the midfield and create many chances.
lol just typing this 2 fast goals in  Grin
if you look at the way the two teams play, they are very strong, Morocco replied to Croatia's goal quickly until the score is now a draw, the two teams failed to reach the final, at least they wanted to be the third winner of this world cup, even though they failed in the semifinals yesterday, I think Morocco will win if it happens extra time and penalty shootout
In the game that started fast, both teams added excitement to the match with the goals they scored.  At the moment, the last minutes of the first half are played and there is a draw.  They lost in the semi-finals but from what I've seen both teams want to win third place.  I hope there will be a better game in the final tomorrow.  I want Morocco to win while I've come this far, it would be nice if they at least finished third.
Although both teams are looking to win today's game, Morocco is desperate for a win.  Because Morocco has come so far, let them have a title.  And maybe eventually it will.
169  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 17, 2022, 03:51:01 PM

I'm sure Messi will give his best contribution because remember that this is his last fight for Messi because of his old age so it's impossible for Messi to play normally because I'm sure Messi will show his true skills which are highly respected by many people so that it will bring Argentina to victory in this match.
Messi is one of the all time greats and I am sure many people would love to see Argentina win it but I still think France will take the worldcup home again. They have such a good team and made the best overall impression this worldcup.
Argentina has not only Messi Roy but also skilled or young players like Di Maria, Alvarez.  Everyone else is confident with Messi.  Because the way they are playing with responsibility towards each other, there is nothing to be disappointed about Argentina.  The team has improved a lot in the last eight years and has claimed every achievement so far except the last World Cup.
170  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 16, 2022, 05:47:15 PM
I'm a Brazil supporter but I'm a big fan of Messi. After my favorite team Brazil got eliminated, I support Argentina team. Because Argentina has Messi in the team. I hope Argentina will win the World Cup this time but Messi has to play very well in this game then maybe Messi.  Now you can retire with the cup.
Apart from the competition between Messi and Mbappe, what do you think is the most interesting thing to look forward to in the 2022 World Cup final?
I also believe that Messi has high hopes of winning this final, he will do everything to make it happen, but it's never going to be easy if the other Argentinian players don't do their best.

So far the statistics for Argentina and France are almost the same so it will be difficult to determine who is better. France and Argentina both conceded 5 goals, but France is 1 goal ahead of the total they scored where France has 13 goals and Argentina 12 goals. Maybe the advantage of the players will affect the result of this final match, but I think it will be good to support Argentina to win the title because it will be very spectacular compared to France winning.
As a football lover no matter which team I support.  The World Cup will be completed in the hands of Messi.  Because Messi is the best footballer.  France will try to become champions for the second time.  But Messi will not give up anything for Messi's ultimate achievement.  Messi's teammates are dedicated to the team and Messi.  With the tenacity and team work we saw in the last semi-final, we can only hope for Argentina.  And maybe so will Messi's magic
171  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 16, 2022, 05:29:04 PM
For Morocco to be able to play in the semifinals is more than enough, so they don't feel disappointed by the defeat to France. What they faced was also the defending champion team. Even so, Morocco can play well. Even France was overwhelmed by the attacks carried out by Moroccan players. It's something extraordinary that Moroccan players do.
Indeed. Morocco players have made a great history. It is the first time they reach the semi-final, they have defeated some strong teams. If they are unable to reach the final, it is no problem for them. They have tried their best to defeat Franch in the semi-final match, just look at the stats that showed clearly their good efforts. They won the ball possession (62%), they made 13 shot attempts compared to 14 shots attempts made by France. This is surely an impressive effort. I believe Morocco players won't regret their lose against France. Now, they must focus on the next match for the third-place match. It is not over yet, they still have a chance to make another history.  Smiley

Now Argentina is the following challenge. We believe that Deschamps's strategy with France on December 18 will be able to make a new history by lifting a second trophy in a row.
Yep. Since the current France team ever experienced the final round previously, they should have a better mentality and be more confident. They also have a better squad, they have strong players in every line. So, I also think Deschamps will win 2 world cup titles in a row. He must know to choose an appropriate tactic to deal with Argentina challenge.


The last World Cup champion team is France.  Now again in the final.  So their confidence is high.  Moreover, the squad that France has is ready to face any situation.  But on the other hand, the players of Argentina are not less.  They also play at big clubs and are unbeaten in 36 matches except for an unexpected defeat against Saidi Arab.  The last Copa America win, and the Finalsima win.  However, the World Cup is on a different scale.  But he is also confident enough.  Even then, Messi often has to do things alone.  Which France does not have to do.  Anyone in France can do anything. Let's see what happens.
172  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 16, 2022, 05:02:11 PM
I think the key motivation for Argentina to win this World Cup is going to be Lionel Messi. The players in the Argentina squad are very motivated. They probably look at Lionel Messi and say that we have to play well for that guy. That is the biggest motivation for Argentina right now. I hope that they have a comprehensive plan heading into the final because it is not going to be easy to play against a squad such as France. The France squad is absolutely stacked with world-class players.

But honestly, I think Argentina has a good chance. For Argentina to win the World Cup, Lionel Messi will have to play very well. Probably better than what he did against Croatia. If this is the Argentina squad of 2018, I would have predicted that this is going to be a one-sided match and France is going to win. But this time Argentina looks strong.

So what happens if Lionel Messi gets Injured, gets double booking, Mmmhh ?! I honestly think they should come correct as a team and not for Lionel Messi to win the game for them alone, that will be the biggest flaw in that game over reliant on Messi to deliver them.
France are already looking for a way keep him silent in that Tchouameni can not do it alone, he would need Griezman dropping to support him.

Both Kylian Mbappe and Ousman Dembele should be very precise when attacking, taking good chances of the opportunity they have early enough will seal the game for France. It won't be an easy night I know lol.

The single card shown to Boufal during the Semi finals against France was biased, FIFA didn't look into that game well, the officials and VAR are damn biased.
The game against France will not be easy for Argentina by any means.  Argentina's defense in particular will have to be very careful.  France always take advantage of the opponent's mistakes and can make the fastest attack in moments.  Therefore, Argentina's core cannot play a wrong pass.  On the other hand, if we talk about Lionel Messi.  But it is natural that any team in the world would want to stop him first.  But Lionel Messi is someone who has been unstoppable since the beginning of his career till date.  Because it is not possible to imagine what Messi can do, or what he will do even a moment in advance.  If France is busy stopping Messi alone, openers like Di Maria, Alavez can also put France in danger.  Just as Messi can make things happen by himself, he can also make things happen with others.
173  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 16, 2022, 04:29:31 PM
France advanced to the finals of the World Cup. It was a very difficult match for Deschamps' team. The Moroccans had several dangerous chances in the first and second halves. However, the French held out and scored two goals. Well, now we are looking forward to the final game between Argentina and France. I'm looking forward to this match.
Each has the same odds based on the odds, so it will definitely be difficult to determine who will win. I tend to believe that Argentina will win, but whatever it is I'm never surprised if France defends the title.

This is probably Messi's last final at world cup level, but I think he will retire from the national team whatever the result of the final. It would be great if Messi was able to close his career at the National level with a World Cup title, but it will definitely be difficult to make it happen because France is a strong opponent.
As much as I want Argentina to win this trophy, However, I must admit that France will be a very difficult task for Argentina, in fact I give them the edge in the final without any sentiment. I'm afraid France may just give them a bitter ending. They’re a very solid team both defensively and offensively. Argentina also have proven to be a good team in this World Cup competition. Reaching this stage of the competition shows their determination and the stake is high so I expect a very tight game. I don’t know who is going to win but France looks very relax and sure
You have logic.  France has strong players from defense to attack.  Moreover, the attack line like M Bappe, Griezmann, Dembele, Gerrard is very scary.  I also want Argentina to win even for Messi.  However, be very careful.  And Lionel Messi will once again be the last to carry the team on his shoulders.  Because if anyone can make anything happen against France's 11, it's only Lionel Messi.
174  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 15, 2022, 07:49:32 PM
Congratulations for France's victory, they played well and quickly penetrated the Moroccan defense and were able to score 2 goals in last night's match, as I predicted that the two of them would meet in the final and this would be a great match, I believe Argentina will not miss the chance to beat the champions survive france in the world cup final, argentina will be the winner in this year's world cup
If we collect the percentage of who will win the World Cup between Argentina vs France, then I'm sure Argentina will get a bigger percentage than France. One of the strong reasons people predict Argentina will win in the final is because Messi and the other players on the Tango team are more qualified than France.

As one of France's supporters in every major tournament like the World Cup, I'm sure France will continue their success in the final against Argentina.
The strong reason we say that is because France does not play for one player, but every player plays for the whole team. It was seen from the group stage to the last game against Morocco in the semifinals.  Wink
France is performing well in this tournament. They are now finalists, while we are seeing a completely different performance from Argentina this time which is really commendable. Lionel Messi, one of the best players of the team, is in rhythm this time. Hopefully we will see a great match.
France, the champion of the last World Cup, will want to be the champion again in the final, it is natural.  But a player like Messi, whose achievements are all but one World Cup.  Back in front of the World Cup trophy in 2014 and this time again in front of the World Cup trophy.  So Messi and his team will never miss this title.  But it is not possible to predict the game.  Let's see what happens.
175  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 15, 2022, 07:19:14 PM
The revenge mission will be carried out by Argentina, because what we know is that they lost in the round of 16 in 2018 to France, at that time France won over Argentina with a score of 4-3, and will meet again in this year's World Cup Final, of course not included.  Does it make sense, that these two countries will meet again in the Final Match, it is certainly difficult to predict bets, it is likely that France will win the World Cup again this year, hopefully this will happen because the French players are more everything than the Argentine players.
It is never possible to say who will win.  The team France eliminated from the group stage in the last World Cup.  That Argentina is in the final.  So it is understood that Argentina is not like last time.  Argentina is now strong enough.  This team was undefeated for 36 consecutive matches.  A team that won the Copa America Champions and Finalsima.  The biggest issue is where Lionel Messi is at his peak form.  So Argentina is no less.
176  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 15, 2022, 06:54:48 PM
When the 2022 qatar world cup be started to be honest I never expected that morocco could go this far, as a team that has never been the favorite in the world cup in fact morocco was able to surprise us all by defeating the big teams that exist, even though now morocco has been stopped by france but we all have to take our hats off to their amazing achievement, like you I would also like to congratulate morocco for making it to the semifinals and now they have a chance to get third place in this year world cup if they can beat croatia later.
Moroccan people are certainly not too sad about the defeat suffered by Morocco from France because all the best forms of the team are enough to make the world community proud. they have become the talk of every cafe for their success in defeating the top teams in the previous round. now Morocco can still achieve what they are pursuing at the Qatar world cup, namely being able to win 3 place in the next match when they face Croatia.

For Luka Modrid this is the last world cup for him because he is already 37 years old and we will see him announce his retirement from the national team when the Croatia and Morocco matches are over.
Morocco was not less in performance or anything they were totally great in strike,defense and attack even in control of ball but obviously France was opposite to them and they were pretty experienced and fierce than them so they succeed in scoring goals and they won

Morocco will be discussed and remembered for couple of months for their outstanding performances in world cup.
France won the last World Cup.  And France has all the famous players.  So France knows how to deal with any situation.  They are quite the aphrodisiac.  But Morocco is no less.  Morocco played a balanced game in every match.  Attack and defense are truly unmatched.  The first African country to play the semi-finals at the World Cup with such skill.  Third place wins the tie-breaker if third in the World Cup.  That is nothing less.  Morocco will be the name of the football world not just for a few months but for a lifetime in football history.  Which no one ever imagined.
177  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 15, 2022, 06:35:47 PM
It is really hard to tell a side to be favoured in the final game. Their championship chances are like the same now. But I think it is fair for these teams both. Because both of them showed really solid performances until reaching this stage. Argentina had some weaknesses in defense though but they still were able to close that gap with their power in offense.

Their attacking power is going to be crucial against France as well. They need to be ready to answer France in case France get ahead first. I expect this game to end by extra time at least. Penalty shoot-outs would be lovely to watch as well. I'm favouring Argentina to win this challenging game.
No team is inferior in any part.  Both teams are title contenders.  Because they gave their best and beat every team to reach this final.  If France concedes a goal first, it cannot be repaid.  However, Lionel Messi can make anything happen at any time.  Argentina's defenses have to be very alert and play with the last of their lives.  Because France has young and fast players like Mbappe, Griezmann, Dembele.  As one of the best in the world, I want this title to be in the hands of Messi.
178  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 15, 2022, 06:03:41 PM
Argentina and France are one step away from getting the trophy, they will surely go all out for this final match. It's a very precious final for Messi, but it won't be that easy to get the trophy. France also has high ambitions to defend the title they won at the 2018 World Cup in Russia. A very fierce battle is bound to happen, one team will defend the title, the other team will try to win the title, Argentina.
December 18th is the final match between Argentina and France so it will be a very hot match and for sure the stadium will be full of screaming crowds, Argentina will play with all their might and of course still rely on their best players like Messi and others to try to score a win.
In 2014, Lionel Messi and Argentina came back from the brink of the World Cup.  And standing in front of the world title again in the 2022 World Cup.  And Lionel Messi is the current greatest player of all time with only one world title missing so Messi and his team will play with the best of their lives.  On the other hand, the world champion of the last 2018 World Cup is again in the final.  They will also want to go on to win a second world title.  So the match is not normal or like other World Cup matches.  Many things can happen.  Let's see what happens.
179  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 14, 2022, 06:55:59 PM
The stage is set for the Almighty game between France and Morocco, and this match will settle a lot of assumptions and give direction to we're the cup is going since the finals are just a few days ahead. It's hard to predict the team that will win tonight's match even as bookmakers gave Morocco high odds and that doesn't limit the possibility of them winning tonight's match.
France is the champion of the last World Cup.  Similarly, Morocco is an undefeated team in this World Cup despite playing the semi-final for the first time.  So it's hard to say what's going to happen.  Let's see who makes it to the finals.
180  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: FIFA 2022 world cup on: December 14, 2022, 06:49:20 PM
There were no surprises in yesterday's semifinal match. As I expected, Argentina won and in a way avenged the 3-0 defeat in the previous world cup. Thus, Argentina became the first finalist in the world cup. Finding 7 hits in 9 shots, Argentina won the match with 3 goals. Today, the other semifinal match will be played. I don't expect any surprises in this match either. France will be the winner.

Argentina played their best game yesterday. Many said Croatia's defense and midfield were too strong, making it difficult for other teams to score against them. But when Messi is at his best in a match, the opponent doesn't have much to do. France is definitely strong in today's match, but I think Morocco will also play well in France. Let's see how well Morocco can play in this match and how much luck will help them to fight against strong opponents like France.
Where Messi plays there is no way the opposition can imagine what is going to happen.  Messi can do anything at any moment.  No matter how conscious you are.  If Messi gives his best, no one can stop him.  Today's game between Morocco and France is going to be a great game.  Just like France has M. Bappé, Morocco has a speedy player like Hakimi who can move quickly in attack and also in defence.  So let's see what happens.
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