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1601  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] POLY - Persistent BTC/USD margin trading emulation on: June 19, 2012, 05:30:05 PM
I have issued a few more POLY.10.1 bonds. The bot will now put bonds up to sale (at 107% face value) as long as the total outstanding bonds have face value less than 200 BTC. This is subject to change.
1602  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 19, 2012, 04:50:25 PM
I didn't read the entire analysis but I disagree with your conclusion that round lengths are inherently longer, there is hardly enough evidence to rule out bad luck. Especially if there is no plausible explanation how can round length mean be higher.
There's enough evidence to show that the round length mean is greater than D to a 95% confidence level. It would have to be quite bad luck.

But I agree there's no mechanism I know of that could plausibly cause such a result. But I'm not a p2Pool expert, and I'm hoping that such an expert will come on board and discuss it. The p2Pool share chain and dynamic difficulty work so differently to a normal pool that I really can't comment. I was thinking that some shares may be unaccounted for and not reported locally, or some such thing. Most likely improbable, and if someone can prove the impossibility then I will gladly edit the post.
That's why Bayesian statistics is superior to frequentist statistics. All the data gives us is about 10:1 likelihood ratio for 1.1D over 1D, which doesn't mean much when the prior probability of 1.1D is so low.

One possibility is that the method used to estimate the equivalent difficulty 1 shares to solve a block using the pool hashrate is buggy. If for example the pool hashrate is actually 9% lower than reported, then the number of shares to solve a block would be D.
That makes more sense. But even then, not much evidence.
1603  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 19, 2012, 04:28:05 PM
Neighbourhood Pool Watch 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? is posted.

Quote
There have been concerns by miners on the bitcointalk.org forum thread for p2Pool that there has been significantly poor luck at the pool for an extended period, and that the number of orphaned blocks created by the pool is higher than it should be. In this post we will investigate the published pool statistics generally, and then specifically with regard to these two concerns.
Quote
7. Conclusions

  • Although p2Pool's round lengths appear normally distributed, they have a mean value of 1.104D, and are greater than the expected value of D with 95% confidence. The expected round lengths at p2Pool are about 10% more than expected. This is not "bad luck" but inherent in the pool.
  • Orphan production seems to have been increasing,  although with a small sample size this conclusion may be erroneous.
  • Orphan production rate does not appear to correlate with changes in P2pool hashrate.
  • If the usual orphan rate at other pools is 1.5%, and the mean round length remains approximately 1.1D, then miners will earn 11% less here than their expected share values.
  • If the orphan rate is normal, then miners are earning approximately 9% less than expected.
  • Variance is significantly larger than for pooled mining using difficulty 1 shares, but much less than for solo mining.
  • Donations to p2Pool over the past 5 months 131.13 btc, increasing miner earnings by an average of 0.52%
  • Overall, miner share values have been either 8.5% or 10.5% less than expected.
  • Given the decentralised nature of the pool, some proponents feel that this is an acceptable price.
  • DDoS attacks can also lead to downtime and loss of income for miners. This will not occur at p2Pool.
  • The concept of p2Pool is laudable, and I hope it continues to be developed and the round length problem solved.
I didn't read the entire analysis but I disagree with your conclusion that round lengths are inherently longer, there is hardly enough evidence to rule out bad luck. Especially if there is no plausible explanation how can round length mean be higher.
1604  Economy / Securities / Re: RFC: virtual mining bond and toxic mining (betting against mining bonds) on: June 19, 2012, 02:35:15 PM
I've been thinking for a while about offering a deterministic negative mining bond, but the designs I've come up with so far imply a specific value for the positive bonds, which isn't very elegant.

There's a very simple way to offer people to short a mining bond - write a put option for the bond, with the strike price decaying with the coupons. Maybe I'll do that...

Mpex also have the interesting offers of put and call options for a given number of hashes, rather than hashrate. That can be used to bet that the difficulty will increase, though not specifically that the market value of bonds will decrease.
1605  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders on: June 19, 2012, 11:11:47 AM
Pre-ordering didn't involve transfer of funds.
Huh

The preorder process simply involved giving name, address, and quantity. Then they would whip up an escrow agreement and a deposit would be held in escrow. That second part hasn't taken place, so nobody needs to do a chargeback.

My absolute best guess is that if someone did pre-order they have allready done a chargeback(hopefully they paid with some form of chargeback capable method)

So you and ttul together in this? You respond as if you are running this vapourware product. Again, he requested pre-order deposit to book a unit but Im pretty sure he got no takers on this piece of vapourware by-product since alot more people would have come here to post about their funds still held up in escrow or something.
I'm assuming Brian is one of the people who preordered. Naturally people who have preordered (including myself) will know a bit more about the process, such as the fact that a concrete request for a deposit hasn't come yet.

I think the quoted number of 31 preorders is very believable. As we said, nobody is complaining about funds held up in escrow because no funds were sent to escrow.

Now, I don't know shit about ASICs, but it's clear that with the 2 companies in question above (Butterfly Labs and LargeCoin) 1 of 2 possibilities MUST be correct:

1) Someone is COMPLTELY FULL OF SHIT in regards to performance/pricing (BFL).
2) Someone got a little TOO GREEDY and will end up missing the boat....(LC)
1. BFL has an incentive to exaggerate the announced specs, to discourage potential competitors and to encourage customers to buy current-gen hardware which can be traded-in. While BFL will certainly be capable of manufacturing the devices at the stated performance and marginal cost if and when they finish development (which could be in a long time), it will be a dubious business decision to offer at those prices. Sound pricing would be beating the competition decisively but no more than that.
2. LargeCoin has stated they're using sASIC which is the "least custom" ASIC. From BFL's words it seems they've put in more money and developing a more advanced type of ASIC. Also, their release time will be later in the future so the may be aiming for better process technologies.
1606  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: wikileaks "Bitcoins cannot be easily tracked back to you" WTF?? on: June 19, 2012, 10:41:23 AM
It's not easy to to figure out which addresses belong to a given person. Case in point, I don't think it was ever done.

Bitcoins are ultimately untraceable provided the users cares to not reuse any of his addresses.
That's not true. The main problem isn't reusing addresses, it's merging outputs.
1607  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: My transaction got approved in < 10 minutes on: June 19, 2012, 03:44:18 AM
Block finding times are random.

The probability that within an interval of 10 minutes at least 7 block will be found is about 1/12000. Which means that it's very likely this has happened many times before.
1608  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 06:56:13 PM
the only reason i bring up the distinction btwn cryptography and hashing is for what i believe are public perception issues.

to me, the more we can describe Bitcoin as being based on "mathematics", which more aligns with the broader concept of hashing, the better it will be perceived, as opposed to being based on "cryptography" which is not only hard to understand but possibly convey a negative perception as if we have something to hide.

my two cents.
Cryptography is mathematics.

Even if "cryptography" is assumed to mean "encryption", the public should be well aware of the important role of encryption in online commerce and banking.
1609  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
Cryptography isn't capitalized, trust me, my masters degree was in cryptography
It is when in the beginning of a sentence.

I agree of course but that's not really evidence, ThePiachu's master's thesis was in Bitcoin and he still didn't properly capitalize "bitcoins".

I wonder if "bitcoinology" should be capitalized?
1610  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 04:48:01 PM
if you use "Cryptography" as you defined it, i would think you'd capitalize it even in the middle of a sentence.
Scientific fields aren't capitalized.

even more confusing is that in my discussions with theymos, as well as has been commented here on this forum by several prominent members, it's been said that Bitcoin does not rely on "encryption" per se.
Encryption is a one-to-one transformation for which the inverse can be computed by, and only by, someone who has the proper key. It is used to conceal data from everyone but intended recipients. That isn't used anywhere in the Bitcoin protocol, but it is used in wallet encryption in the client.

Hashing is a transformation that is in general not one-to-one, and which ideally cannot be inverted by anyone. The ostensibly random nature of such transformations is used in making block finding artificially difficult (and directly proportional to computational power).
1611  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 03:43:03 PM
in the very first paragraph i find something i would've stated differently:

"It relies on cryptographic algorithms in order to prevent abuse of the system."

shouldn't it say "...cryptographic and hashing algorithms..."?

i'm not an academic in this particular area so correct me if i'm wrong.
"Cryptography" is a general field encompassing encryption, digital signatures, hashing and more.

my turn to nitpick.  he used a small "c".
"Cryptography" isn't capitalized when in the middle of a sentence.
1612  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 03:19:51 PM
in the very first paragraph i find something i would've stated differently:

"It relies on cryptographic algorithms in order to prevent abuse of the system."

shouldn't it say "...cryptographic and hashing algorithms..."?

i'm not an academic in this particular area so correct me if i'm wrong.
"Cryptography" is a general field encompassing encryption, digital signatures, hashing and more.
1613  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: My Bitcoin master thesis on: June 17, 2012, 10:18:41 AM
Wonderful. While academically it seems the intended focus was security analysis, it is comprehensive enough to be used as a reference general introduction to Bitcoin, to those willing to take the time to study it seriously.

A few nitpicks:

1. "Bitcoin" and "satoshi", as units of currency, should only be capitalized if at the beginning of a sentence. "Dollar" isn't capitalized either. Bitcoin as the name of a project, a protocol, a software, an ecosystem and a community is of course capitalized. Also, I'd avoid using "bitcoins" in reference to the system - e.g., instead of "(b)Bitcoins offer much lower cost of transferring money" I'd say "Bitcoin offers".

2. You use http://pastehtml.com/view/awb1vg03r.html as a reference for currently used mining pool reward systems, but it's badly out of date, and even for its time it was vague at best - SMPPS pools are listed as PPS, different varieties of score-based methods are lumped together in a single category, etc.
1614  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 17, 2012, 06:04:27 AM
I agree with most of your ideas. But as the issuer of MOORE, I have to make some comments.

Also, since the chosen appreciation rate is arbitrary, it stands in the way of standardization and commoditization.

Exactly. As I admitted in my main thread from the start, our bond is not fungible with deterministic bonds, so I have to do price discovery myself without the help of other people's prices. And I also admit that my pricing includes the compensation to many of my potential risks.

However, the strategy of MOORE is to make its price less prone to technology advances. For technology changes, there are gradual ones and disruptive ones. The policy of my current hard-code appreciation of hashrates aims to neutralize the first, and I will also cover the second with my new adjustments to the contract of my bonds.

I prefer the scenario where the issuer just offers more bonds if he wishes to expand utilizing new hardware opportunities, and investors can buy them if they wish to maintain or increase the value of their investment.

The essence of MOORE is I do the re-investment for them. Even if in the end the investors just get the same as the scenario they do re-investments themselves, the psychological effect of "our bond is not losing value as much as others are" is an advantage both for me and for the investors.
I agree but personally I don't feel the upside is worth the cost of less direct entanglement with the underlying hardware purchase. But I certainly don't deny that MOORE has a place catering to people for whom it is. In particular, it expands the space spanned by the available investment opportunities, giving sophisticated investors more flexibility in matching their portfolio to their future projections.

Regarding the psychological effect, it's mostly a product of what metric one is looking it. Currently GLBSE shows a graph of an asset price over time, and seeing a graph which is always in decline indeed looks bad. IMO the relevant metric is current price + coupons paid per unit so far. This gives a more accurate, intuitive picture of the viability of an asset, should look the same for functionally equivalent assets, and will show an upward trend for any successful investment.
1615  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 17, 2012, 04:50:26 AM
How will puremining deal with the ASIC situation Meni?

I see NastyMining is going to change the value of their bonds to 20mh/s or something.
PureMining is a deterministic bond, and it will continue to be 1 MH/s per bond. I don't increase it when something good happens any more than I decrease it when something bad happens, the contract is binding both ways.

Some issuers have offered to pass on gains from the BFL trade-in program. This makes sense given this disruptive event, I wish them the best of luck and investors who are confident in BFL's ability to deliver would do well to consider these offers. But that's not the market segment I'm in, I just want PureMining to continue faithfully filling its role of a deterministic bond long after the uncertainty of the current time is behind us.

BFL's announced specs are very impressive, but on the other hand they don't have a great track record of delivering what they promised on time. I will certainly take their announcement into consideration when deciding on the pricing of any future issued bonds, and investors should take it into account when deciding how much they are willing to pay.

What are your thoughts on a MOORE type offering ?
I think it's very interesting but ultimately I don't see the point. The issuer of a bond with a hardcoded appreciation in hashrate is speculating on what the future cost of hashrate will be, and he will have to compensate for this risk in his pricing. In a fixed-hashrate bond the issuer can much better estimate his cost of covering the bond, and can thus offer it at a more affordable price. Also, since the chosen appreciation rate is arbitrary, it stands in the way of standardization and commoditization.

I prefer the scenario where the issuer just offers more bonds if he wishes to expand utilizing new hardware opportunities, and investors can buy them if they wish to maintain or increase the value of their investment.
1616  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: hashing question on: June 16, 2012, 08:53:51 PM
Note that with the GPU hardware most miners use, scanning the whole 2^32 range of nonce values takes a matter of seconds.  Mining software will scan the whole range looking for a valid hash for the block and then increment the timestamp or reorder some transactions so it can try again.
Why would the miner increment the timestamp or reorder to try again? Once they get a valid hash for a block, wouldn't they just want to simply claim the 50 coins and move on?
The miner will scan the whole range looking for a valid hash. Only one time in ~1.6 million this scan will result in finding a valid hash. If it doesn't, the miner will tweak the header, typically by increasing the timestamp or the extraNonce.
1617  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: What happens if an owner sandbagging his own listing? on: June 16, 2012, 06:55:23 PM
I also love the idea of MH increasing over time as hashing capacity only increases for same dollar investment and never decreases.  Combining both those ideas would make me love bonds.
Bonds such as MOORE which have hardcoded hashrate increase are interesting but they're basically speculation on the part of the issuer, as he can't know what will be the actual decrease in the cost of hashrate (and any chosen value will be arbitrary and nonstandard). With fixed-hashrate bonds, the issuer knows how much it will cost him to provide a given hashrate, and the reduced risk allows him to offer the bonds at an affordable price. If he wishes to expand he can always issue more bonds, and if the investor wishes to maintain/increase the value of his investment he can always buy them.


I've also commented here on what a better buyback provision could look like.
1618  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: The Responsibility of Asset Issuers on: June 16, 2012, 06:43:44 PM
Also, the buyback provisions being used today are close to criminal.  Buy back provision should have a floor such as the initial price offered + interest, not the current price.  A bond price can be manipulated or just naturally tank and then then bond issuer can buy it back at a significant discount causing the bond holder to LOSE money.  Many bond holders have said "I'll just hold the bond for 1.75years (or whatever) until I break even" but what happens if you bought at 1.4 and the price drops to 1.05 and the bond issuer issues a buysback and now you have no chance of waiting out your perpetual bonds.
Buyback based on initial price doesn't work. An issuer who has been paying coupons for 2 years and needs to buyback, shouldn't be paying what he originally got now that the value of a MH/s is only 40% of the original value.

A buyback shouldn't be a free pass to stop paying coupons. It should be painful to the issuer, and profitable to investors, only to be used in a few specific circumstances such as:

1. The issuer is legally forced to cease being involved in the bond.
2. The issuer is disabled/dies and his heir doesn't want the hassle of operating hardware and paying coupons.
3. The issuer's hardware suffers catastrophic failure and he wishes to cut his losses.

I think 120% of 30-day maximum price, as in PureMining, is fair. It would require the bond value to take a sustained, massive hit in order for the buyback price to be less than the original price. And if there is such a hit, it would imply that the bond isn't as profitable as the investor initially thought, which means he would take a loss buyback or no buyback.

Another useful metric for deciding buyback price is what I call "projected lifetime earnings". This is what the bond would produce forever if the difficulty remains constant (but block reward halves). This is easy to calculate - (number of blocks until next halving + 210000) * (current reward per 10 minutes), and currently it's 1.0375 BTC. This value, combined with a projection of future difficulty changes, provides a measure of the actual lifetime earnings of the bond. If the bond is currently traded at, say, 0.4 BTC, it would mean the market thinks the value of the bond is about 40% of the projected lifetime earnings - and so a fair buyback price would be 50% of the projected lifetime earnings. This allows the buyback price to decay together with the bond, without the investors being at risk of an artificial decrease.

The optimal buyback would be something like "110% of 30-day maximum price, but never less than 40% of projected lifetime earnings and never more than 60% of projected lifetime earnings". This guarantees both the investors and the issuer are safe, but is fairly complicated.
1619  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Idea: General Verification & Authorization website on: June 16, 2012, 05:55:08 PM
This can be very powerful if it can be pulled off. But it seems to me that the network effect barrier will be extremely challenging.
1620  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] POLY - Persistent BTC/USD margin trading emulation on: June 16, 2012, 05:54:06 PM
POLY.10.1 is now offered at 107% of face value. There's a bot that updates prices every 2 minutes.
that was fast!
The bot is fairly simple for now (mostly just upholding my contractual duty to buy bonds at face value), didn't take long to develop, just had to wait for me to come back home from miluim.

So the bot should be buying/selling? I see no asks.
Yes. That's because they're all sold out Smiley. If someone sells to it it will put (some of) them back up for sale.

It seems the bot is only selling for now and the quantity so far was limited and reached.
It's buying too, but to do that somebody has to sell Wink.
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