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1781  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Vs Bitcoin Cash on: August 09, 2017, 09:27:33 PM
Well, I think bitcoin cash is not stable yet. Although the price is high, but I think it's only temporary. Well, of course bitcoin is better. Even etherium is still better than bitcoin cash in terms of usefulness.
There is two option I see for Bitcoin Cash:

- users will dump Bitcoin Cash and eventually, it will become dirt cheap,  and by dirt cheap, I mean like 0.01% of original bitocin
- Bitcoin Cash will become somewhat usable (I doubt it personally), or it gathers a certain amount of a 'fan base'(more likely)and  these people will keep the value of it on stable level

At first, due to all the demand for exchanges to support Bitcoin Cash, I expected the latter outcome. However, now it seems like hash rate is dwindling. The difficulty retarget algorithm isn't clear to me; it seems that it's still not profitable to mine, despite being more stable at this point. ViaBTC's hash rate (for BCC) is down to 26P, one third of what it was a day or two ago. Are there any other pools?

I guess soon we'll have a pretty clear idea just how much of the community was really behind the idea of big blocks and miner-controlled consensus rules. Bitcoin Cash might stay around, but it doesn't look like it has the brightest future at this point.

The difficulty has been greatly reduced on BCH in an attempt to make it more profitable to mine, but it's still not on par with BTC. The developers know this and it's a thing they actively track. Here's a graph of their attempt to reach profit parity. They've made strides to that end, but ultimately it's out of their control and will be determined by the market at large.

1782  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:23 PM
But that distinction can in fact make a tremendous difference

In other words, it may be quite feasible and doable to disrupt the PoW network provided enough resources are put into mining, and you are sort of guaranteed to succeed at bringing the network down. At the same time, the mission of accumulating enough coins in the PoS model may be virtually impossible since as soon as you start buying up, the price is set to spike exponentially. And whatever the price might be, you still might not be able to make it simply because some holders won't sell at any price. And then you are stuck

But again, this operates on the notion that the only way to disrupt a PoS system is to seize control of it, rather than disrupting it's ability to propagate a network by attacking or taking offline the computers that make it up, does it not? Even under PoW, you don't have to seize control of it to render it unusable, you just have to destabilize it to the point that blocks can be corrupted.  (I say "just" knowing this would be a technical feat.) But I would think that you could hamper the system the same way by disrupting the network activity in PoS. Theoretically, what happens if a wallet with 51% of a PoS coinbase is not connected to the network? I would think they don't get to solve any blocks, otherwise the network would grind to a halt. If 51% of the coinbase in PoS is not connected to the network, doesn't that degrade network security the same way as taking out a large portion of the mining power making up PoW? My guess would be yes, but I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

Strictly speaking, I don't know

Since there are many varieties of the PoS model out there, and some of them can surely address that point in a coherent way. Personally, I'm inclined to think that if 51% of all nodes just plug off from the network without doing anything nasty behind the scenes, nothing particularly dangerous is going to happen. Regarding your other point (that of crushing part of the network), indeed if you shut down the whole Internet (or some part thereof) or just divide it into independent segments, this won't bode well for any coin, but this is certainly beyond the scope of issues addressed by these models. It is like saying that you could severely damage a coin by starting an all-out nuclear holocaust but this certainly won't be a blow aimed against this coin specifically (which is sort of assumed)

Do you own any PoS personally? I dabbled in Clams for awhile but found I didn't particularly like it as a currency. The fast blocks are a nice thing to have, but the inflation rate I didn't find particularly beneficial. Although I suppose that over time, the inflation rate becomes more and more insignificant as a proportion of the overall coinbase, but that also requires a more robust use-case than Clam had at the time I stopped following it. Perhaps it's still the case, but at the time its main utility was as a gambling token for Just-Dice.
1783  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 09, 2017, 09:14:10 PM
I think they are not really afraid. They have the legal power and I know that they can do what they want. Bitcoin is a big money and I am sure that they are just waiting for the right time to attack. We should all be ready for any situations.

The SEC has acted quite slowly in response to crypto. They are not looking for the right time to "attack" or do any such nonsense. They are on the record (and their actions reinforce this) that they are taking a deliberate and measured approach to cryptocurrency so as not to needlessly squash innovation with regulatory overreach. They're in a tough position though, as their mandate is to protect individual investors and devise rules to enforce existing securities laws, so they (rightly) are continuing to study developments in this space.
1784  Economy / Economics / Re: Do You Think Bitcoin Will Replace Dollar Soon? on: August 09, 2017, 08:51:30 PM
Coinbase CEO believes bitcoin will replace dollar within 15 years.

Read the following news:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114983/coinbase-ceo-bitcoin-will-replace-dollar-within-15-years

Do you think it will be true? Are you positive towards bitcoin's future status?

I tend not to believe that the dollar will be replaced by a digital asset.

Bitcoin is not just a currency.

Bitcoin 'enables' the transmission of all the currencies of the world.

I look at Bitcoin in much the same way as a conveyance belt in an airport - in this reality, fiat currencies are the luggage and bags that are placed atop this conveyance belt and moved from point a, to point b.

This is 'one' of bitcoins' abilities.

The dollar, and most fiat currencies. perform a completely different task.

I could be terribly wrong, but I don't believe that bitcoin can be compared with any fiat currency at all. This would be like comparing a bicycle with an aeroplane





The paper dollar could be replaced by a digital asset, but it's likely to be the digital version of the dollar, which already dominates the US economy. More transactions and more value is conducted electronically than in physical currency, and the trend continues to grow. Visa during its quarterly conference calls openly talks about its war on cash. Private companies are increasingly pushing electronic payments and consumers are increasingly preferring it. No need to revolutionize the system with bitcoin, the system is already in the middle of a massive evolution.
1785  Economy / Economics / Re: What is your best investment strategy? on: August 09, 2017, 08:38:30 PM
I've been telling basically the same for years

In reply to claims that Bitcoin adoption is "slowly but steadily increasing" between merchants. Nevertheless, having said that, I still keep to the opinion that the major cause for the lack of widescale and wildscale adoption is Bitcoin requirement to wait long minutes (sometimes even hours) before transaction confirmation. If Bitcoin would have been instant, that would help a lot in this aspect as well as help stabilize prices. Prices would be lower than now (for pretty simple reasons), but they would be more stable overall

I would gladly trade the high volatility for a lower and more stable price. If I had the choice between bitcoin being trading between $2500 and $3000 and being between $1750 and $1755 dollars, I would take the lower price range. The difference is huge. I would be poorer in dollar terms by quite a lot, but the wild price swings in that scenario makes bitcoin relatively useless for commerce and business. Under the second scenario, the bitcoins are worth a lot less, but trade in a small enough range that they could be useful for both commerce and business by allowing people to have a reliable expectation of what their bitcoin holdings are worth. That's what I crave most from btc

But the price stability is not possible without acceptance of Bitcoin by merchants and businesses

So it is sort of vicious circle, i.e. Bitcoin won't be stable until truly accepted by merchants at a larger scale, but merchants are not going to massively accept it until it becomes stable on its own. That's why instant and low fee transactions are so important since they could, at least, theoretically, help break this self-feeding loop of instability. Though this is not guaranteed either. Businesses will go for Bitcoin only if it turns to be more usable, convenient and handy than fiat, not necessarily better than the US dollar (this is a tough task) but at least better than local currencies that businesses are mostly transacting with

I definitely buy that t would help, but I don't know that it will ever be stable enough the grant large merchant adoption. Moves of a even 1% per mont would be too risky and hit margins. Retail especially is ultra competitive, and margins are so low that currency moves as big as a percent could sap all profitability. And I just never see Bitcoin being that stable.

I can't see how moves of 1% per month could be thought of as risky

Even major fiat monies like the US dollar or Euro move way stronger than that. In fact, oftentimes (well, sometimes), they move even more than that just within 24 hours. As I said elsewhere, in order to be universally accepted by merchants, Bitcoin needs 3 major things (apart from legal recognition, obviously). First, it needs instant, close to real time transactions. Second, it needs these transactions to be dirty cheap, so cheap that no one would be paying attention to them even when buying trivial things. And, third, Bitcoin needs to be more stable than local fiat currencies which merchants use in their trade. Bitcoin doesn't need to be more stable than the American dollar or Swiss frank, it just needs to be more stable than the majority of currencies out there (which are not very stable overall)

Considering retail profit margins are generally around 1%, if your currency moves against you by 1% or more, it either eliminates your profit or turns the profit into a loss. The difference between btc moving 1% and fiat moving 1% is that if the USD moves 1%, everything in the economy moves with it since everything is denominated in dollars and the change is a wash. When btc moves 1%, it's relative to the dollar, so the gain or loss is a relative one on top of whatever fiat is doing. The USD movements are only relevant if you're doing business in an area that would necessitate exchange.

As for the three points you highlighted, I fully agree with all of them. Any one of those is a boon to the system, but all three would make bitcoin a viable alternative to the USD for merchants.
1786  Economy / Economics / Bitcoin price change metrics are useless on: August 08, 2017, 10:49:51 PM
Because bitcoin doesn't have an "open" or "close" to the trading day like securities markets do and trades around the clock, there's no easy way to determine what the price change from day to day is. All the exchanges therefore use a rolling 24 hour period to note daily price movements, which is essentially a useless metric. This is how that method shows a price change hour by hour.




The brown line shows the "change" displayed at any given time against the actual price of bitcoin (yellow line). Essentially, the "change" is always comparing to a point exactly 24 hours ago, which is essentially meaningless because it doesn't tell you if the price is currently moving up or down, just what it was compared to a static point 24 hours ago. After a price increase and then steady price for a period, this method would register as a "falling price change" 24 hours later, which is technically true but meaningless to derive current actual price movements. Here's another more dramatic example of the distortion:



The brown line (price change) doesn't in any meaningful way reflect actual current price changes.

Wouldn't it make more sense for exchanges to classify a trading day as 00:00-23:59 UTC, and display an intra day high and low and then measure the current price against the previous days' high and low? That would at least give the price change metric a current value that far exceeds the current method.

For example, if BTC traded at a low of $2800 and high of $2900 yesterday and is currently trading at $2850, the exchange would show Low +1.79% / High -1.72%. That at least gives you an indication of where it is presently in relation to the high and low yesterday, whereas the current setup only tells you whether it's up or down vs. where it was exactly 24 hours ago, with no information about how far it has or hasn't swung in total since yesterday.

All it would take is for one exchange to start doing this I think for them all to adopt it.
1787  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Vs Bitcoin Cash on: August 04, 2017, 10:47:13 PM
bitcoin cash is the upgrade version of bitcoin. bitcoin could handle approximately three transactions per second with its 1MB of data per block and bitboin cash 8mb per block. and i think bitcoin will increase rapidly and bitcoin cash will increase soon bitcoin is til the best best. .. and this time bitcoin will increase more than we think.

I believe the 1MB blocks could handle 7 transactions per second (that's the most common number I've seen cited). In any event, that's irrelevant since SegWit is supposed to increase space by 60% for transactions in the blocks, and then the 2x portion of SegWit is supposed to increase the blocks to 2MB in November. Back of the envelope math puts the transaction capacity then at 22 transactions per second. When trying to talk about the merits of BCH, that's the number you need to be competing against. Three transactions per second is either intentionally understated or ignorant

Such comparisons are meaningless as such

They would make sense if and only if the block capacity is utilized in full. And I'm afraid we will never live up to that, at least, not in respect to Bitcoin Cash. How many blocks have been mined since it forked off, a dozen or two? How many transactions are there? I understand that it is too early to tell by any metric but what makes anyone think that anything is going to change at all in the future? Why would people use this shitcoin when they can safely use, say, Litecoin, which is a lot faster and cheaper (in respect to fees)

The capacity is immensely important. I'm not a fan at all of BCH, but to the extent the differences have merit, they ought to be considered fairly. Extra capacity is the whole point. If BTC reaches capacity again and the network slows down and fees skyrocket, all of a sudden BCH looks much more attractive. I don't see the point in BCH unless SegWit2x proves to be unable to cope with future transaction load and the developers again refuse to make changes. At that point, you've got a clone with the capacity to handle the extra transactions, and I'm sure if push comes to shove, they'd adopt SegWit on top of it creating even more capacity. As for why anyone would use that over Litecoin is the same question as to why anyone uses Bitcoin over Litecoin if the transactions are so much faster and cheaper over there. BCH has one thing that differentiates itself, and that's a very recent shared identity and an outside shot of claiming itself the legitimate Bitcoin chain with the masses. (I don't buy it, but if everyone else eventually does... well, we're all at the mercy of the consensus in that regard.)


You are always massively confusing things

In this case specifically, you implicitly assume that Bitcoin Cash and the regular Bitcoin still remain somehow connected or affiliated but after the split this is no longer the case. Bitcoin Cash is already just another coin (like many others out there), and converting from regular Bitcoin to this Bitcoin would be equal to selling and buying coins just like with any other two coins. So why would people want to use this China coin (when there is a congestion in the regular Bitcoin network) when they can buy Litecoin instead, which would be safer, cheaper, and faster? Anyway, Litecoin has virtually unlimited capacity, so why would Bitcoin Cash look more attractive and to whom exactly (and still more so if we are to compare and consider things "fairly")?

What is it that you think was confused, exactly? Because every time someone has an opinion differing from you, you label that as the other person misunderstanding or being confused. It's rather embarrassing for you that you think every instance of a different opinion is the other person being confused. Because apparently you think I think that BTC and BCH are still connected or affiliated, even though I don't.

BTC and BCH are two separate coins, but it is not like any other alt because BCH is essentially a clone of BTC with the only difference being block size (i.e. capacity). Up to a few days ago, they had the exact same history. That is, first and foremost, something no other coin gets to say. BCH is the only coin with the chance of claiming legitimacy of the "Bitcoin" legacy. So BCH is quite different from litecoin because BCH and BTC share a common history as of several days ago, and BCH's entire point is to SUPPLANT bitcoin, not operate as a compliment to it like litecoin has always maintained was its purpose. If BCH didn't want to SUPPLANT bitcoin, there would be no point in branching off. BCH did so in the belief that the only way to save bitcoin was to correct the biggest flaw in allowing the network to scale appropriately, capacity. The only way BCH maintains value now is if they ultimately prove to be right about the capacity issue. If BTC's blockchain once again becomes congested and unusable, BCH's is the closest ecosystem to bitcoin, not litecoin. Additionally, if litecoin is so superior in speed and cost and capacity, it would already be beating BTC, and it sure as heck would have replaced BTC during the last several-month-long period of congestion and skyrocketing fees. The fact that it's not and it didn't means Bitcoin has something that the market desires beyond what litecoin offers, (call it legacy, name recognition or some unquantifiable attribute) and at a point where BTC no longer can meet market need (due to capacity restraints), the most likely chain of events is for the market to latch on to the closest thing that matches Bitcoin, and right now that's BCH on account to there only being one difference between the two systems.

You can disagree with that, and I fully expect you will, but don't be such a pompous jackhole that you think because I have a different opinion than you it's because I'm confused. That level of arrogance is incongruent with having any type of worthwhile discussion.
1788  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 04, 2017, 10:47:07 PM
I disagree with even this minor point of view

Not for the sake of disagreement obviously, but because you are missing an ever important distinction here (which conceptually distinguishes between the PoW model and the PoS model). This important distinction lies in the fact that with the PoS approach to securing network, you have to literally own the network before you can successfully attack it (i.e. get hold of the majority of coins), but in that very case you essentially become the owner of the whole shebang itself. This is totally different with the PoW model since in the latter case you just need enough hashing power to ruin such a coin

Perhaps I'm not as familiar with how PoS coins work then. How does ownership over coins factor into control over the network? Are there miners solving the blocks in the same manner as PoW? (If so, could you not just disrupt the miners solving the blocks to interfere with the system? Not to take it over, mind you, but to disrupt it and make it unusable.)

You may want to read the Wikipedia article on the PoS model

There are no miners in the sense mining works in Bitcoin. As per article (emphasis added), "in PoS-based cryptocurrencies the creator of the next block is chosen in a deterministic (pseudo-random) way, and the chance that an account is chosen depends on its wealth". In other words, your voting rights (which roughly corresponds to hashing power in Bitcoin) are directly proportional to the amount of coins you have (i.e. your stake). So if you want to take down or otherwise damage the coin, you have to outright accumulate more coins than anyone else (in general case, 50% plus 1 coin). But that would amount to acquiring the controlling stake in a company or firm, i.e. you essentially become an owner of it. After that, you can do with the company whatever you might want to do, but this is kinda natural course of events

I guess I'm just trying to understand how cryptography figures into it then. In PoW, everyone is "mining" to solve a cryptographic puzzle, and the person who does it gets the reward of new coins. But there are still computers hashing an algorithm in PoS, even if that's not how the blocks rewards are chosen. But in any event, it seems like targeting the computers decentralizing the network (miners in PoW and hashers or whatever they're called in PoS) would have the same effect in both systems. It would be a horribly inefficient way to try to disrupt the system, but it should have the same effect on both. This operates differently from the notion that the only way to disrupt the currency is to seize control of it (by owning majority in PoS or the majority of the hashing power in PoW).

But that distinction can in fact make a tremendous difference

In other words, it may be quite feasible and doable to disrupt the PoW network provided enough resources are put into mining, and you are sort of guaranteed to succeed at bringing the network down. At the same time, the mission of accumulating enough coins in the PoS model may be virtually impossible since as soon as you start buying up, the price is set to spike exponentially. And whatever the price might be, you still might not be able to make it simply because some holders won't sell at any price. And then you are stuck

But again, this operates on the notion that the only way to disrupt a PoS system is to seize control of it, rather than disrupting it's ability to propagate a network by attacking or taking offline the computers that make it up, does it not? Even under PoW, you don't have to seize control of it to render it unusable, you just have to destabilize it to the point that blocks can be corrupted.  (I say "just" knowing this would be a technical feat.) But I would think that you could hamper the system the same way by disrupting the network activity in PoS. Theoretically, what happens if a wallet with 51% of a PoS coinbase is not connected to the network? I would think they don't get to solve any blocks, otherwise the network would grind to a halt. If 51% of the coinbase in PoS is not connected to the network, doesn't that degrade network security the same way as taking out a large portion of the mining power making up PoW? My guess would be yes, but I don't know, which is why I'm asking.
1789  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Vs Bitcoin Cash on: August 03, 2017, 04:49:43 PM
bitcoin cash is the upgrade version of bitcoin. bitcoin could handle approximately three transactions per second with its 1MB of data per block and bitboin cash 8mb per block. and i think bitcoin will increase rapidly and bitcoin cash will increase soon bitcoin is til the best best. .. and this time bitcoin will increase more than we think.

I believe the 1MB blocks could handle 7 transactions per second (that's the most common number I've seen cited). In any event, that's irrelevant since SegWit is supposed to increase space by 60% for transactions in the blocks, and then the 2x portion of SegWit is supposed to increase the blocks to 2MB in November. Back of the envelope math puts the transaction capacity then at 22 transactions per second. When trying to talk about the merits of BCH, that's the number you need to be competing against. Three transactions per second is either intentionally understated or ignorant

Such comparisons are meaningless as such

They would make sense if and only if the block capacity is utilized in full. And I'm afraid we will never live up to that, at least, not in respect to Bitcoin Cash. How many blocks have been mined since it forked off, a dozen or two? How many transactions are there? I understand that it is too early to tell by any metric but what makes anyone think that anything is going to change at all in the future? Why would people use this shitcoin when they can safely use, say, Litecoin, which is a lot faster and cheaper (in respect to fees)

The capacity is immensely important. I'm not a fan at all of BCH, but to the extent the differences have merit, they ought to be considered fairly. Extra capacity is the whole point. If BTC reaches capacity again and the network slows down and fees skyrocket, all of a sudden BCH looks much more attractive. I don't see the point in BCH unless SegWit2x proves to be unable to cope with future transaction load and the developers again refuse to make changes. At that point, you've got a clone with the capacity to handle the extra transactions, and I'm sure if push comes to shove, they'd adopt SegWit on top of it creating even more capacity. As for why anyone would use that over Litecoin is the same question as to why anyone uses Bitcoin over Litecoin if the transactions are so much faster and cheaper over there. BCH has one thing that differentiates itself, and that's a very recent shared identity and an outside shot of claiming itself the legitimate Bitcoin chain with the masses. (I don't buy it, but if everyone else eventually does... well, we're all at the mercy of the consensus in that regard.)
1790  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 03, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
I disagree with even this minor point of view

Not for the sake of disagreement obviously, but because you are missing an ever important distinction here (which conceptually distinguishes between the PoW model and the PoS model). This important distinction lies in the fact that with the PoS approach to securing network, you have to literally own the network before you can successfully attack it (i.e. get hold of the majority of coins), but in that very case you essentially become the owner of the whole shebang itself. This is totally different with the PoW model since in the latter case you just need enough hashing power to ruin such a coin

Perhaps I'm not as familiar with how PoS coins work then. How does ownership over coins factor into control over the network? Are there miners solving the blocks in the same manner as PoW? (If so, could you not just disrupt the miners solving the blocks to interfere with the system? Not to take it over, mind you, but to disrupt it and make it unusable.)

You may want to read the Wikipedia article on the PoS model

There are no miners in the sense mining works in Bitcoin. As per article (emphasis added), "in PoS-based cryptocurrencies the creator of the next block is chosen in a deterministic (pseudo-random) way, and the chance that an account is chosen depends on its wealth". In other words, your voting rights (which roughly corresponds to hashing power in Bitcoin) are directly proportional to the amount of coins you have (i.e. your stake). So if you want to take down or otherwise damage the coin, you have to outright accumulate more coins than anyone else (in general case, 50% plus 1 coin). But that would amount to acquiring the controlling stake in a company or firm, i.e. you essentially become an owner of it. After that, you can do with the company whatever you might want to do, but this is kinda natural course of events

I guess I'm just trying to understand how cryptography figures into it then. In PoW, everyone is "mining" to solve a cryptographic puzzle, and the person who does it gets the reward of new coins. But there are still computers hashing an algorithm in PoS, even if that's not how the blocks rewards are chosen. But in any event, it seems like targeting the computers decentralizing the network (miners in PoW and hashers or whatever they're called in PoS) would have the same effect in both systems. It would be a horribly inefficient way to try to disrupt the system, but it should have the same effect on both. This operates differently from the notion that the only way to disrupt the currency is to seize control of it (by owning majority in PoS or the majority of the hashing power in PoW).
1791  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Vs Bitcoin Cash on: August 03, 2017, 02:40:25 PM
bitcoin cash is the upgrade version of bitcoin. bitcoin could handle approximately three transactions per second with its 1MB of data per block and bitboin cash 8mb per block. and i think bitcoin will increase rapidly and bitcoin cash will increase soon bitcoin is til the best best. .. and this time bitcoin will increase more than we think.

I believe the 1MB blocks could handle 7 transactions per second (that's the most common number I've seen cited). In any event, that's irrelevant since SegWit is supposed to increase space by 60% for transactions in the blocks, and then the 2x portion of SegWit is supposed to increase the blocks to 2MB in November. Back of the envelope math puts the transaction capacity then at 22 transactions per second. When trying to talk about the merits of BCH, that's the number you need to be competing against. Three transactions per second is either intentionally understated or ignorant.
1792  Economy / Economics / Re: You should never trust banks on: August 03, 2017, 02:26:47 PM
I guess you should rather try to defend your point

Instead of claiming that I don't understand (or misunderstand) something and should ask for help. You basically claim that Bitcoin has value because there is a working banking system (wtf, I seem to have repeated you words one by one). As to me, this is the point you should specifically address first (before asking me to go for help or elsewhere), namely, how can Bitcoin get its value from an existing banking system if Bitcoin itself is a banking system in its own right? In other words, it can exist even if the fiat banking system dies one day, and this is exactly what happened at Bitfinex. Anyway, this exchange is the largest Bitcoin exchange out there so you can't possibly discard it as a "small data point" (in short, the gods are closer to you than you think). If it really were so (as you speculate), we wouldn't see the Bitcoin price rising half a thousand dollars in a matter of two weeks (and then consolidating there). This you can't discard either and have to address as well. To sum it up, you can't discard reality for your wild fantasies

You didn't address anything of substance. You simply continued on without addressing the fact that you are claiming that trouble at bitfinex should tank bitcoin under my theory, which flat out isn't close to what I wrote. I said specifically, "when the next international financial crisis happens, people will flee bitcoin for safer assets, and the price will crash hard." You responded with 'but bitfiniex and price appreciation.'  So would you like to continue propagating the delusion that bitfinex constitutes a global financial crisis so you can try to conclude me theory to be inaccurate, or would you like to let a little more reality color your views?

It is not me who should address anything (in the first place)

It is you who said that "Bitcoin has value because there is already a robust international banking system" (as can be seen above). This is what I disagree with and which I made clear in my reply. Now you flip-flop and start claiming that "when the next international financial crisis happens..." and so on. I don't think you can jump from your first claim to the other as easily as you do (since this is not what my point is about). For example, it is like claiming that stocks derive their value from fiat (while it should be clear that their value comes from the success of the companies behind these stocks) and then proceeding to claim that when a crisis happens, the stocks will plummet. They will certainly do (and Bitcoin will likely crash too), but this, first, doesn't in the least prove that their value all of a sudden depends on "a robust international banking system" (at least, not in any meaningful degree). Second, fiat itself will likely get heavily wasted in such circumstances (in terms of its purchasing power) with the "international banking system" disintegrating (in the extreme case). And, finally, this is not what I challenge. Anyway, stocks had existed long before there was any international banking system (or just banking system, for that matter), so there is no reason to claim that "Bitcoin has value because there is already a robust international banking system". This is what you should prove, not that Bitcoin will crash in case of an economic meltdown. Hope this helps


As far as stocks go, since the market is a forward looking construct, stocks trade on anticipated future earnings. When a financial crisis hits and those future earnings are in doubt, stocks trade down towards their actual worth, and many times below book value. This is entirely different from bitcoin, the value of which is entirely made up of economic excess because there is no inherent value in bitcoin. The inherent value of the stock is the liquidation value. Trading above the liquidation value is speculative, which is why that excess disappears in a financial crisis. Bitcoin is entirely speculative. In a global financial crisis, the only people holding bitcoin will be those who can still afford to speculate, and stocks will trade near book/liquidation value, also with any excess by those who can still afford to speuclate on the recovery.

And how does that support you claim?

I don't get it, really. You basically say (in your previous posts) that a robust international banking system gives value to Bitcoin and stocks. I cannot possibly agree with this claim. As to me, it pretty much sounds like claiming that stocks and Bitcoin have value because an asteroid doesn't hit the Earth since otherwise (if it hit the Earth) the stocks (as well as Bitcoin) wouldn't have any value. Indeed, they would be quite worthless in that very case, but it doesn't in the least mean that asteroids give value to these assets

That whole paragraph is the support of the claim. To try and re-word it: a robust international banking system has created the wealth of our current globalized economy. The wealth and stability of our economy gives people the economic freedom and confidence to chase speculative investments (because they're not worried they need all their resources just to survive and can risk those assets to attempt to acquire more assets). If you withdraw economic confidence (such as in a massive recession/depression), all the speculative assets would decrease in value as people rush to protect their wealth against the backdrop of economic uncertainty. When the future is in doubt, there's outsized risk in speculation, so the only people speculating on risky assets are people who are not in financial jeopardy and can afford it. This contrasts to the current economic and market conditions where there are a lot of people who can afford to speculate.

As for your asteroid scenario, which takes the above to the extreme, you've basically got it except for the conclusion.  In this scenario, the future isn't just in doubt, its end is certain. So it's the lack of a society-ending asteroid (or any other doomsday scenario) that gives future-looking assets (stocks, speculative assets, real estate, just about everything and probably including all currencies of every kind) value. If we knew that an asteroid was going to strike the Earth in 7 days and it would wipe out civilization, everything would immediately be worthless. In that scenario, the asteroid doesn't give assets value; the lack of the asteroid does. It's because we're certain that there will be a future that anything has any value, because value is very future-dependent.
1793  Economy / Gambling / Re: bustabit.com -- The Social Gambling Game on: August 02, 2017, 10:49:59 PM
Ok! Snapshot has actually been taken!

Just out of curiosity (as I don't have any coins on the site currently, so have no personal stake in the answer), what will you do with the BCH coins held in Bustabit wallets on behalf of gamblers? Are you going to allow people to withdraw them? (Was that the point of the 'not interacting with BCH until it's stable' comment?)

Also, any plans to clone the site to handle BCH gaming, or will you stick primarily to BTC?
1794  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin doubler... on: August 02, 2017, 10:42:08 PM
...will be launched on the 1st of August. Are you happy with this?

i hope this happens, as bitcoin price is touching the sky.
iam looking for ward for this bitcoin doubler, this might allow us to explore more in btc world

Well, you missed the doubler mate. It happened yesterday and there are now two distinct blockchains with different currencies competing for legitimacy.  May the best currency win, but also, I hope BCH dies a quick and inglorious death. Two currencies that do the same thing with only one slight technical difference (the size of the blocks) is not supported by market fundamentals. This split was orchestrated by a vocal minority, and now I think they will very much try to claim themselves as the legitimate chain, and any fight for legitimacy has the potential to get nasty.
1795  Economy / Economics / Re: Why not just print dollars? on: August 02, 2017, 09:34:51 PM
The inflation dude. The more you print dollar the less valuable it can be. Therefore, people do not want to print more and more money and if the government decide to do that, they are trying to against you

Exactly brother. As long as they print more money than the usual the more the money gets less valuable. The supply of paper bills goes high while the demand will be less because of the supply. The logic here even though they can print more paper bills, they will not do that because it just gets less valuable.
In fact, all is not so simple. In many countries inflation is much higher and the local population uses the dollars to save their funds. This restrains inflation in America and so the American government can afford to print dollars in huge quantities without fear of inflation.

Most of the money supply increases don't even come from the Federal Reserve but from fractional reserve banking. Banks take deposits and loan a fraction of it out, but the full amount is payable on demand to the depositor. There is now more money in the economy because of this, the physical currency exists that has been lent out, and the hypothetical currency the depositor can withdraw and counts as an asset. If the borrower uses his loan to increase the goods or services in the economy, the added growth pays back the loan and the money created in this system is warranted. If he defaults, that money disappears from the economy. When this happens on large scales, banks fail and we have a recession.
1796  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 02, 2017, 09:33:46 PM
Governments can't destroy cryptocurrencies in one swing, like it happened with private payment systems previously, but if major forces (the US, EU, China, Russia) would act together, they can make sure that cryptocurrencies adoption will never reach mainstream levels. The weakest link of cryptocurrencies is mining - if cryptocurrencies were completely outlawed globally, most large scale mines would be forced to close, meaning lower network hashrates, meaning it would be easier for governments to attack crypto networks with 51% attacks. But there are many reasons why it hasn't happened yet and unlikely to happen in the future.

I disagree with the emphasized part

This is true only to a certain extent and (as it seems) only with regard to PoW coins. But even in the latter case, shutting down major mining operations won't change anything in particular over long times. Mining difficulty will readjust in a couple of weeks, and the efforts and resources spent to close down mining farms will be wasted for the most part. As to me, the weakest link is exchanges themselves since most people are there for profits alone, and shutting down them will have a by far more devastating and disastrous effect on cryptocurrencies than raiding mining facilities all over the world. That's why the introduction of decentralized exchanges (as well as some metaexchange embracing these exchanges) is so urgent nowadays

PoS coins fall victim to the same problems as PoW coins without a robust and diversified mining base. In PoW everyone mines for their own profit and coins are awarded to those who solve the blocks, but in PoS everyone mines to keep the network functioning and coins are awarded based on proportional ownership of existing coins. In both cases, if you target the miners, the coin is in jeopardy

And how are you going to fight with the miners in practice?

Okay, you remove a huge mining farm, and that wouldn't be difficult obviously, but in less than no time ten smaller mining operations will immediately spring up in different quarters of the world to fill the void. If you take down these, a few hundred even smaller miners will soon emerge, so you will be essentially fighting with windmills uselessly and fruitlessly wasting your resources. That would be a perfect example of an immortal hydra


Sprouting cut parts faster than you chop them off

I'm not saying that targeting miners is a technically effective way undermine a cryptocurrency, just that PoS coins are not immune to such a disruption if one were to happen. Since your original statement said this was only a concern for PoW coins, I'm broadening that to include PoS coins, since both require miners to diversify and protect the network. A mining disruption would impact both (not only PoW), but I do not believe either is in significant danger from having their operations disrupted by a targeting of the mining population.

I disagree with even this minor point of view

Not for the sake of disagreement obviously, but because you are missing an ever important distinction here (which conceptually distinguishes between the PoW model and the PoS model). This important distinction lies in the fact that with the PoS approach to securing network, you have to literally own the network before you can successfully attack it (i.e. get hold of the majority of coins), but in that very case you essentially become the owner of the whole shebang itself. This is totally different with the PoW model since in the latter case you just need enough hashing power to ruin such a coin

Perhaps I'm not as familiar with how PoS coins work then. How does ownership over coins factor into control over the network? Are there miners solving the blocks in the same manner as PoW? (If so, could you not just disrupt the miners solving the blocks to interfere with the system? Not to take it over, mind you, but to disrupt it and make it unusable.)
1797  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin doubler... on: August 02, 2017, 09:28:43 PM
this will be way worse than the ETH drama split.. just get your FIAT ready and buy the super cheap bitcoins, and wait for 6 months, and bam you are wealthy  Grin

Remember when everyone said that about houses? "Can't lose money buying house." "Houses never drop in value." "Just buy a house and wait for a couple years, then flip it and count your money all the way to the bank."

It worked until it didn't. 2007/2008 was a rude awakening for folks trying to cash in with no work and little common sense. Don't be blind like those people.

Just wait for the start of the crash and buy of there instead (if there even is one).
And yes, there are many attempts people have taken to sayyou should buy certain assets and hold them for as long as possible, most of the time, market predicitions eventually fail at some point.

If anyone could reliably predict the start of a crash or the bottom of a dip, they'd be rich beyond measure. The fact that you can't is what creates uncertainty in investing. The fact is that the advice proffered is not actually followable, and anyone telling you they can predict such things is a charlatan. Smart people know better than to believe them.
1798  Economy / Economics / Re: The Feds Are Terrified Of Cryptocurrencies... But They're Powerless To Stop Them on: August 02, 2017, 07:07:34 PM
Governments can't destroy cryptocurrencies in one swing, like it happened with private payment systems previously, but if major forces (the US, EU, China, Russia) would act together, they can make sure that cryptocurrencies adoption will never reach mainstream levels. The weakest link of cryptocurrencies is mining - if cryptocurrencies were completely outlawed globally, most large scale mines would be forced to close, meaning lower network hashrates, meaning it would be easier for governments to attack crypto networks with 51% attacks. But there are many reasons why it hasn't happened yet and unlikely to happen in the future.

I disagree with the emphasized part

This is true only to a certain extent and (as it seems) only with regard to PoW coins. But even in the latter case, shutting down major mining operations won't change anything in particular over long times. Mining difficulty will readjust in a couple of weeks, and the efforts and resources spent to close down mining farms will be wasted for the most part. As to me, the weakest link is exchanges themselves since most people are there for profits alone, and shutting down them will have a by far more devastating and disastrous effect on cryptocurrencies than raiding mining facilities all over the world. That's why the introduction of decentralized exchanges (as well as some metaexchange embracing these exchanges) is so urgent nowadays

PoS coins fall victim to the same problems as PoW coins without a robust and diversified mining base. In PoW everyone mines for their own profit and coins are awarded to those who solve the blocks, but in PoS everyone mines to keep the network functioning and coins are awarded based on proportional ownership of existing coins. In both cases, if you target the miners, the coin is in jeopardy

And how are you going to fight with the miners in practice?

Okay, you remove a huge mining farm, and that wouldn't be difficult obviously, but in less than no time ten smaller mining operations will immediately spring up in different quarters of the world to fill the void. If you take down these, a few hundred even smaller miners will soon emerge, so you will be essentially fighting with windmills uselessly and fruitlessly wasting your resources. That would be a perfect example of an immortal hydra


Sprouting cut parts faster than you chop them off

I'm not saying that targeting miners is a technically effective way undermine a cryptocurrency, just that PoS coins are not immune to such a disruption if one were to happen. Since your original statement said this was only a concern for PoW coins, I'm broadening that to include PoS coins, since both require miners to diversify and protect the network. A mining disruption would impact both (not only PoW), but I do not believe either is in significant danger from having their operations disrupted by a targeting of the mining population.
1799  Economy / Economics / Re: Can Bitcoin Volatility Be Controlled? on: August 02, 2017, 07:07:06 PM
Bitcoin's volatility will never be controlled, just look at other commodities like gold and see the big swings that happen there. Even fiat currencies often have large swings in their valuation.

"Big swings" is relative. Neither gold, silver, or other mainstream commodities, and especially not fiat, see volatility on the order that crypto has experienced in its short lifetime. Gold on rare occasions can swing 10% in a day, and that's a big move. Crypto routinely swings 20% or more in a day. Fiat is generally more stable than gold, and a few percent in a single day is a dramatic move. (Fiat during hyperinflation is another matter, it's not common and not normal, and is generally a one-way track.)
1800  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Vs Bitcoin Cash on: August 02, 2017, 05:56:53 PM
Don't get fooled by the rising bcash prices. Bcash is experiencing some major clusterfucks right now.

There is a mysterious miner organisation from HongKong is mining almost empty blocks and they make sure that the difficulty stays high. So moving bcash is a pain right now. That makes it very easy to manipulate prices. And there is also that many exchanges don't let people to withdraw their bitcoins.

So you can't send your bcash to the exchanges, even if you do, exchanges won't let you leave.

I would do nothing right now but eat my popcorns while watching this freak show.

What does empty blocks have to do with anything? The blocks are empty because there's substantially low transaction volume as of yet, not because of some conspiracy. And you can't "keep" the difficulty high any more than you can "make" the difficulty low. The difficulty is a function of the solve time of the blocks. BCH works the same way as BTC, the difficulty adjusts up or down based on the the number of hashes solving the block and how long they take. So by "keeping the difficulty" high, they would only have to be mining blocks per normal. "Letting" the difficulty fall would be taking miners offline, creating opportunity for other miners to grab their share of the revenue, so there's no conspiracy, just miners working in their own economic self-interest just like every miner in BTC.
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