Bitcoin Forum
May 30, 2024, 03:46:24 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 [90] 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 ... 164 »
1781  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Alternate Currencies On Exchanges. on: April 07, 2013, 05:59:54 PM
PPC source isn't closed, it's just not really discussed to any extensive manner by the developer and the vulnerabilities that are suspected to come along with PoS systems also aren't really talked about.
1782  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: TRC ZERO CONFIRMATIONS!? What is going on? on: April 07, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
There's been a lot of threads on this over the past few days. Basically, people with large hashing power are exploiting the quick confirmation times to bring the network to a halt. So no new blocks are being mined and transactions aren't going through.

Did Sunny King's difficulty algorithm not fix the chain?  I think he extended it to 12 or 24 hours or something like that, that is, these are the timespans from which to calculate the exponential weight averages from, but that's still a fairly short period of time and you can attack by mining like crazy for a couple hours and then hopping back on a while later.
1783  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin) on: April 07, 2013, 05:45:06 PM
Blocks are given to you based on obtaining and keeping coins for a certain duration (coin age)

So this coin would essentially be totally controlled by MtGox (i.e. their reserves).

An ideal proof of stake chain would allow you to mine with just your standard client ticking the "generate coins" checkbox. This checkbox could default to checked if you hold more than x coins assuming a trade off between some moderate computation costing moderate amounts of energy and noise and the chance of contributing to the network security within the next week/month.

MtGox would not control Bitcoin if Bitcoin was POS as MtGox does not control 51% of all coins. By far they don't.

MtGox would have to pay interest on coins stored with them as else people would not hold larger stashes of coins there. Same would apply to any hosted wallet.

Yeah.  The 51% problem still exists for PoS systems, but you just need 51% of all the coins available to fork the chains instead of 51% of the network hash power.  The tradeoff is that 51% forks of PoS coins are not readily reversible, eg, if your PoS chain has a 30 day waiting period before claiming PoS blocks and you obtain 51% of all coins then wait, then decide to fork the chain, removing any amount of blocks in the chain up to the last 30 days still leaves you, the original forker, with 51% of the coins and perfectly able to commit the same exploit again.

PoW, by contrast, can just roll back a few hours because sustained 51% attacks appear to be extremely rare and also extremely costly.

But the bigger problem with PoS is double spends by creating short PoS block spams of length six or so.
1784  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:19:39 PM
I've been thinking about the PoS system a lot, and this is what I'm concluding as the most simple mechanism to use for their general generation:

1) Require that every single PoS block be followed by a PoW block and succeeded by a PoW block, limiting the maximum block rate of the network to PoW and preventing PoS blocks from easily making forks so they can double spend.
2) For confirmations, six blocks of any type should be used.  Because of 1), this makes a maximum of 3 stake blocks for any six confirmations (which I think should be safe; PoW durations are twice that of Litecoin and most vendors are okay accepting 6 LTC blocks).
3) Stake blocks will be accepted based on their cumulative coin age as calculated by the sum of the products of (coin quantity from input transaction * coin age aka transaction age).  When faced with two or more PoS blocks at nearly the same time, all will be orphaned except the one with the largest cumulative coin age.

I will work this into the next draft of the whitepaper unless someone thinks it's a terrible idea for whatever reason.

I'm also happy this is garnering so much interest.  I'll create BTC and LTC donation addresses tomorrow, and I'll report what people have given.  I don't really want any money for it myself, so I'll hold it in reserve here and distribute it to any developers who hop onto the project.  What I really need are programmers at this point.
1785  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:10:15 PM
Looks very good!
Just one thing: change the name to something usable and new while you can.
Memcoin2 sounds like this is just a second copy of something else, and doesn't sound appealing at all
Don't make the same mistake peepeecoin made :p

It's a working title, I'm open to suggestions.
1786  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:09:36 PM
Thought:  What if coins from PoS were in some way segregated and usable only to pay transaction fees, these fees are collected by miners as normal but because they are segregated in users wallets and generated in proportion to their normal wallet balance they effectivly create a "free transaction quota" for every wallet allowing them a certain velocity of money without cost, if users wish to exceed that velocity then can begin spending normal coins for the transaction fee and go as high as they like.

This solves the 'transaction-only' problem that PoW is believed to suffer from when all coins are mined, now PoW miners can receive a continual flow of transaction fees without these fee's being a burden on the wallet holder.  It dose require that their be never-ending PoS coin production though which implies having no cap to ultimate coins unless a 'drain' can be found.

I'm not sure this would be the best way to go about things.  The system describe already has a method to promote PoS generation through fees because the 256 inputs in the stakebase transaction are allowed feeless and then become condensed into a single output, avoiding fees later for the user.  The fees included in any PoS blocks are also destroyed, preventing fee competition among easily generated stake blocks and also creating competition with PoW blocks (who desperately want fees).
1787  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Whats the best cgminer configuration for 7950's? on: April 07, 2013, 07:37:05 AM
"intensity" : "20,20",
"worksize" : "256,256",
"gpu-engine" : "0-1040,0-1040",
"gpu-memclock" : "1480,1480",
"gpu-threads" : "1",
"vectors" : "1,1",
"lookup-gap" : "2,2",
"thread-concurrency" : "21712,21712",


these are what i use for 620kh/s

Code:
Maximum buffer memory device 0 supports says 805306368
Your scrypt settings come to 1422917632
Error -61: clCreateBuffer (padbuffer8), decrease TC or increase LG
Failed to init GPU thread 0, disabling device 0
Restarting the GPU from the menu will not fix this.
Try restarting cgminer.

I get this error on cgminer when I try your settings.
Also I am running two MSI 7950's

execute command
Code:
export GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT=100
1788  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Whats the best cgminer configuration for 7950's? on: April 07, 2013, 07:01:43 AM
sig threads

guiminer-scrypt 7950 high usage settings

Is there a Linux version of guiminer-scrypt?

No, in which case use the cgminer settings in the other thread in my sig, just don't forget to run "export GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT=100" first
1789  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Whats the best cgminer configuration for 7950's? on: April 07, 2013, 06:48:28 AM
sig threads

guiminer-scrypt 7950 high usage settings
1790  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin) on: April 07, 2013, 06:12:16 AM
Can someone explain to me in layman's terms what proof of stake means exactly?

Blocks are given to you based on obtaining and keeping coins for a certain duration (coin age) rather than by mining competitively to solve blocks through a lottery system (proof of work).

The main problem with it is that it seems to introduce vulnerabilities, and the major advantage is that it's more power efficient and makes a chain somewhat more resistant to a PoW 51% attack.
1791  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:28:03 AM
The more I hear, the more I like. I'd love to mine this once its released.

Can you give an ETA on the initial release?

Depends if I can find people to help develop it.  I'm heavily employed so the implementation of everything in here will basically be impossible in the next few months (this is my weekend/late night hobby).

Edit: I can assure you that a non-botched release will happen when it does, though.  I'll create the genesis block string and make binaries of the miner and qt wallet before release on an offline computer, then upload here encrypted with AES256 and a very long, strong password.  Then after a few weeks has past and it's been well distributed, the password will be revealed and everyone can begin mining at the same time.
1792  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin) on: April 07, 2013, 05:21:43 AM
4x the block generation speed, which is useful for smaller transactions and to take the load off bitcoins block size limitations, and an encryption method which is more ASIC-resilient and less likely to be 51% attacked as a result, would indicate some thought out innovations with the design of Litecoins. If both were introduced at the same time, Bitcoin would've died off years ago and Litecoin would reign supreme instead.

I keep seeing people not knowing much history of altcoins claims as if scrypt hash was litecoin's 'innovation'. It was done by ArtForz and first debut was in tenebrix. coblee just copied it.

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/History-of-cryptocurrency



Fair enough. So why Tenebrix die off?

No long term incentive to mine it (no block reward halving was implemented)
1793  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Litecoin build for noobs: 3x 7950s (1.8 MH/s) in a $10 crate case on: April 07, 2013, 05:18:46 AM
Well that green plastic box has a ...certain charme... I seriously doubt it's open enough to provide 4 7950's with enough cool air. What temperatures do you get after half an hour ?

As I  understand it, one should aim to keep the temperature under 80 degrees c. Above 90 you are really starting to do damage.

My prototype runs up to 74c, and that's with only 2 7950's and no case at all.

Yeah you are right, the box is really bad for cooling, I couldn't run the 4 cards at max intensity, they would only stably work at intensity 13 on cgminer.

Time to cut out some windows with an old soldering iron!
1794  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:14:35 AM
Democracy per head or democracy per coin?

Democracy per coin already has a (somewhat) proven real world method in voting shares for public corporations.  

Democracy is based on PoW blocks and PoS blocks.  So, hashing power and also, and stake power is used for votes (it's in the whitepaper).
Each block contains a vote.

Okay, for PoS.  So unlike PPC, your shares only gain value if you find a block.  (right?).  With PPC your coinstake accrues.

And the voting system sounds really cool.  But, we won't be able to see it implemented for 30 years.

Right, but finding a block is exceedingly easy (there are very few restrictions) so long as you have a sufficient number of coins with an old enough coin age.

The voting system is there so that the chain stays inflationary well into the future in addition to the option of fees (which has been academically debated as to whether or not it will function correctly).  Of course, anyone can make their own for and implement voting easily in the way I have specified -- just need to add a couple extra bits to the block header.  Pools could also allow voting by running a few instances of the daemon that sent out work based on variations of these bits in the header.
1795  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 05:07:55 AM
Are you sure you want to enforce it like that?

Because all other crypto-currencies don't have a hard limit.  Bitcoin blocks could be found 1-2 minutes away from each other and  that's allowed.  You should control stake blocks off of the difficulty it is too mine them.

It's based off of hashing right?  It's luck and the difficulty factor determines when the blocks are found.  Having Pow, PoS, one after another would be very unlikely.

Well, it's the easiest method when blocks are all the same difficulty and people may all have them at the same time (very unlikely, but possible).  Bitcoin blocks are fine being found close to one another because they actually represent some large amount of work -- all stake coins have is stake to back them.  Regardless of the speed PoS blocks function at, PoW at 15 blocks per hour would be steady.

If you had (12/129600) of the current total number of coins in the network and a merchant who accepted funds after 6 confirmations, you could spam 6-12 blocks quickly after waiting three months and try to attempt to double spend like this.  The probability of such an attack succeeding is extremely high, and the cost to the attacker is virtually nothing.  I'm not sure 100% how PPC deals with this.

So, you need some means of mitigating this.  In the Bitcoin network, the likelihood of getting enough hash power to perform such an attack (one hour of forked blocks) was extremely difficult, but it's very easy with stake blocks.

You also can not protect the network the same way you would with BTC/LTC for stake coins (by difficulty) because someone could simply hoard many coins, wait for the right moment, and engage in the attack.  There's no guarantee stake blocks will be claimed at any particular time under the current system, and I'm not sure how you'd implement them to do so other than restrict the rate at which the network allows them to be generated.

Edit: Another option would be to force stake miners to wait until after a PoW block is mined before sending out a PoS block, so that PoW and PoS blocks are all mined back to back.

2nd edit: If you put PoS blocks back to back with PoW blocks, you can actually more easily attack the network because you now only need half the magnitude of your PoW attack vector.  So, PoS in one sense protects the network, but in another sense destabilizes it with a small percentage PoS, small percentage PoW attack vulnerability.  I haven't really seen this addressed anywhere by PPC, but thinking about it now makes perfect sense.
1796  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 04:56:39 AM
Hmm, will a CPU miner be released when the coin is released?

Yes.  It will probably be a little bit before a GPU miner is released.
1797  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 04:55:43 AM
Can the draft doc be hosted somewhere else, this current 'mega' site is asking me to agree to terms-of-use and download flash just to download a simple file which is absurd.  Please use a host that dose not shaft people.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?sgqjglhmz3mg30s

Thanks
1798  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 01:46:44 AM
Last question. Is the name MC2 based off of E=MC2? Can't wait to point a rig at this, keep working hard!

It's double entendre of this and a reference to my first idea for a coin, Memcoin (which turned out to be a bad idea because you don't want to use high memory scrypt for a blockchain PoW hash). Smiley
1799  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 01:32:05 AM
I was wondering when someone would come around and implement all of the cool features we are seeing in other alt-currencies at once, yet you seemed to have taken it another step further. How much of the feautures do you plan on borrowing directly from BTC using their stable code as a base? Without trying to pick on an obvious influence for your current model, it's nice how your are already showing the inner working of the math involved within the original alpha white paper. Something that PPC is still lacking in my opinion.

Thanks.  I think it's best to go over the theory really hard before even trying to put it into code.  I want to try to stick as closely to the original BTC code as possible.

If Sunny King or other PPC folks want to chime in, I'm kind of curious as to how PPC prevents brief forks using rapid bursts of stake blocks.  The network time method seems like the easiest and most foolproof method to implement, but I'm wondering if there's some kind of major problem with it.
1800  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2: A democratic cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: April 07, 2013, 01:16:09 AM
I'm assuming the reason you are implementing a lot of things gradually is so that you have time to tinker with them before they come into full effect? That's a much better tactic than having to take a step backwards after you've realized you overshot the mark.

Yes.  The PoS system described should be difficulty to game and has an enforced reward below that of PoW, so PoW should always be the dominant source of coins.

One shortcoming with PoS as I described is that if someone buys 40% of all the coins and hoards them, they will be eligible to get a bunch of stake blocks all at the same time.  If they could spam them fast enough they might be able to fork the network briefly, but only for four minutes average at most (and if something weird is going on inside the chain of blocks, clients should reject them anyway).

I should probably add to the whitepaper that (1/129600) * total number of coins is the minimum number of coins required to grab a stake block, but that if you have multiples of that are all the same age you can grab a bunch consecutively if you so want to.  I assumed that the wallet would be implemented to do this automatically, but it may not have been clear from the whitepaper that this happened.

I guess you can also enforce throughout the network to only accept one stake block maximum every two minutes and reject the rest to help even out the distribution of stake blocks over time.

Edit: Yeah, I see a weakness now.  There should be some sort of measure to ensure a minimum time between PoS blocks of 1.5 or 2.0 minutes.  I don't think it'll be that hard to enforce -- just make the network reject the PoS blocks if the timestamp is too close to that of the previous timestamp.
Pages: « 1 ... 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 [90] 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 ... 164 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!