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1821  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Does Bitcoin has any intrinsic value? on: July 14, 2017, 05:01:38 PM
Intrinsic value = characteristics. Bitcoin has more than a few. For example, it is an efficient way of transferring money over the internet, It is controlled by a decentralized network and so on.

Anybody saying it does not have any intrinsic value, should be ask what intrinsic value cash has. Henry Blodget is talking bollocks.

I don't know what you mean by "characteristics." Everything has characteristics, that doesn't mean everything has intrinsic value. As for the second point, bitcoin doesn't have intrinsic value, and neither does cash. If the government didn't establish the dollar as official currency, dollars would not have any value by themselves. That's why they aren't intrinsically valuable; their value is assigned to them.
1822  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Does Bitcoin has any intrinsic value? on: July 14, 2017, 04:46:59 PM
Intrinsic value isn't only things people "need" but things where the value comes innately from the object. You can think of intrinsic value as a synonym for "utility."  Does something have value because it is useful, or is its value arbitrary? For example, silver is used in far more industrial applications than a metal like gold. Silver has more intrinsic value because it is useful for things people need to do, whereas gold's value is more arbitrary. It's just valuable because everyone agrees it is. (This is not a perfect example since gold has some industrial or medical uses, but overall it is a generally good illustration of intrinsic vs. arbitrary value.)

Then does air have any intrinsic?  We need it to survive.

And just thought of this - if 1 satoshi = 1 penny, tten 1 BTC = $1M.



Yes, air's value is intrinsic since it comes from its utility. It's also virtually worthless because it's freely available and common. If that wasn't the case, air would have a market value, and that value would derive from it's intrinsic value (utility). In fact, we do have a market for air for those in need. People who are on an oxygen tank have to pay for the air in that tank. As you pointed out, those people need it to survive and can't breathe it naturally from the atmosphere, so the value of the air in that tank comes from its utility by the people who need it to survive.
1823  Economy / Economics / Re: Do You Think Bitcoin Will Replace Dollar Soon? on: July 14, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
Bitcoin will be able to replace the dollar only if it exists and as a physical currency that can be touched in real life. Now it is just an additional currency. But I do not think that this will happen, they just will exist in parallel.

Why would it have to be physical? Like 90% of all transactions today with fiat are made from numbers on a screen. Physical fiat has been gradually decreasing for a while now and soon we'll have a cashless society most likely. As for BTC replacing the dollar it's not a matter of if but when right now. Time will tell as with all things, I know damn well that if I had the option of holding $1,000,000 in US Dollar or $1,000,000 in BTC equivalent the choice would not be hard.

This choice wouldn't be hard for me either, but it's the exact opposite of your sentiment. Any amount of considerable wealth I would keep in a stable currency where I could be reasonably certain what the value would be week to week and month to month. Nobody has a reasonable basis to say 30 days from now if bitcoin will be worth the same as it is now. Bitcoin is down more than 10% in the last 30 days. That'd be $100,000 loss if it was bitcoin in your scenario. It could just as easily go back up, but everyone is convinced that it will, which is the sign of a bubble.
1824  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will people start moving their savings to Bitcoin in case of a financial crash? on: July 08, 2017, 03:22:00 AM
Found this.. is it all fud? "Legendary investor Jim Rogers predicts a market crash in the next few years, one that he says will rival anything he has seen in his lifetime."

http://www.businessinsider.com/jim-rogers-worst-crash-lifetime-coming-2017-6

Jim Rogers is a blowhard. He makes a living by forecasting doom and gloom scenarios. His track record on his predictions is horrible. All that aside, if a financial collapse were to happen, I would expect Bitcoin to fall hard. This price is propped up by speculators and gamblers looking to get rich quick. In a financial crisis, money flows away from the riskiest assets first, and as the current King of speculative vehicles, there's nothing riskier than Bitcoin. When all the money is fleeing to safety, there'll be nothing to prop up the price of Bitcoin.
1825  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin is working fine! No change needed! on: July 08, 2017, 03:18:32 AM
Bitcoin has proven, that it is works fine, even through times of different attack modes (FUD, spam, patenting, +, XT, RV, CW etc). I don't think we have a pressure to raise the blocksize or to force the mass adaption. We don't need no SegWit to make Bitcoin great again, because it is already. Give this baby time to grow, folks.

Transaction fees have risen to the point where Bitcoin cannot compete with banks. That was originally one of the great promises of Bitcoin, and now the network congestion is causing far too many problems that will inhibit future growth. Things are certainly not fine as is, Bitcoin is at capacity, and future growth is inhibited by the network congestion and sky high fees. If Bitcoin is unable or unwilling to address these issues, there are only 500 other cryptos eager to steal market share by adopting common sense solutions.
1826  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin popularity made it vulnerable to governments on: July 08, 2017, 03:14:05 AM
Nobody owns a "master key". This isn't a bank. Please read more... There's a Bitcoin wiki where you can start.

yeah that's what I am telling , since nobody owns the masterkey how could the government ask for a masterkey?

They can't.
They won't try to control it, but they will regulate it..

What is regulation if not control? While Bitcoin started off as a completely unregulated entity/ecosystem, the more people who get involved, the more likely regulation is. People will demand it, out of a sense for their own protection. Regulation is not automatically bad.
1827  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What's going on? Bitcoin for the rich only? on: July 08, 2017, 03:03:30 AM
Hi,

Even just a year ago bitcoin was useable... now the fees are about 10x what the banks charge. Seems like its changing from a peer-to-peer money system for everyone into yet another convenient way for rich people to exchange funds!

What went wrong> And more to the point, who is responsible? What can be done to fix it?
Thanks
Andy

Network congestion brought on by limited block size (in conjunction with spam attacks) have pressured transaction fees. You're right that the fees are prohibitively expensive now. The inability to deal with this comes down to special interests now; essentially people with Bitcoin-caused riches who are afraid to take any action that will devalue their wealth. That's why consensus about what to do is so difficult now. This is inevitable though whenever this much wealth is created, it's not a unique problem for Bitcoin. I think people just naively assumed Bitcoin would be different.  
1828  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How can bitcoin be used for regular transactions.. on: July 08, 2017, 02:57:36 AM
The biggest fear that many will have is how do we use this currency in regular transactions, like for some fruit, veggies, plumbing or a beer.

So far this seems like an easy issue to resolve. The technology is there, the apps are coming along and there are a few sites that offer auction style sales. The wallets are there and all that is needed are localized people to help local businesses.

The last step is the education. Anyone have good ideas on the best path of education on applicable purchases using bitcoin?

The biggest problem is what merchants want to accept a currency they can't reasonably predict the value of in a few days? In a few days, Bitcoin can - and regularly does - lose 20% of its value. That makes conducting business denominated in bitcoins impossible. Even the merchants currently accepting Bitcoin use a third party to immediately process the transaction to fiat. That's the only way they can be sure to retain the profit of the goods they sold.
1829  Economy / Economics / Re: If USD falls on: July 07, 2017, 09:52:47 PM
There's generally two ways to look at the relationship between USD and btc. The first is that bitcoin has intrinsic value indpendent of USD, so if the USD falls, btc (while indpendently stable) will "appreciate" in value relative to the USD. An offshoot of this is that the failing dollar would send people piling into btc, which would push the price up. The opposite of this view is that it's excessive wealth created by the stable value of the USD that creates the wealth necessary to allow people to speculate on bitcoin, and if the world's most stable currency failed, people would flee the riskiest assets in a massive flight to safety, which would tank the bitcoin price.

Personally, I fall into this second group. The failure of the dollar would tank the world economy, bitcoin included, which is the king of speculative assets. People will flee speculative assets and pile into traditionally safe assets, which would include gold, silver, and probably the Euro and Yen as the remaining stable fiat currencies.

You forget a few important things in your speech

More specifically, that Bitcoin is not valued just in the US dollars. It could indeed be priced mostly in dollars but the dollar just happens to be there, happens to be a universal yardstick. But if people start, for example, weighing gold in grams instead of ounces, gold won't lose value just because of that. That basically means that people which buy and sell bitcoins don't care much if Bitcoin price is denominated in dollars. They have their own currencies which are more important to them (including those you enumerated), and the dollar as such is pretty insignificant to these folks. So if there are more people involved in Bitcoin which are using these other currencies for their everyday activities, the failure of the dollar would mean nothing to them, nothing negative. To them, Bitcoin will be a separate currency in no way linked to the US dollar or the US economy unlike the stocks of the American companies. This is where you make a mistake by implicitly linking Bitcoin to Murika

[/img noped]

In short, Bitcoin is not some overpriced American stock

Stock has nothing to do with it, but it is overpriced in the sense that its value far outweighs its utility. But that's a separate point.

Bitcoin is denominated in dollars as well as other currencies, but if you're trying to sell the idea that the loss of the world's most stable currency from the market would mean "nothing negative" for the traders in every other currency, well that's a terrible position you've backed yourself into defending! Especially considering that it's the excess wealth created by our currently stable world economy that gives speculative assets their value. Guess what happens if everything goes to chaos... speculative assets crash. That's what the Great Depression and the Great Recession showed, as well as the Dotcom crash. All of it was speculation driven nonsense, and when the mania couldn't sustain the overpriced assets anymore, all that money that was propping up the speculative assets fled to safer assets. But I'm sure Bitcoin is the one speculative exception that would continue to thrive when a bulk of the buying pressure propping it up disappears, right? That's what you have to believe to argue from your side of it.
1830  Economy / Economics / Re: What is your best investment strategy? on: July 03, 2017, 10:20:26 PM

my best investment strategy with Bitcoin is to store Bitcoin in a secret place. Remember storing Bitcoin is also and investment which can give you a much higher return then any other conventional investment. So instead of wasting your Bitcoin for mobile recharge or grocery billing you better store it.

I have tried p2p lending as well but most of the time people used to scam. So I am currently active in Bitcoin trading and storing which I believe will take my life style to a different level in future.
I don't quite agree that it is considered wasting your bitcoin if you use it as a currency, because that is what it is primarily created for. What I do is allot a portiin of my bitcoins for holding and a portion also for spending. If everyone just holds their bitcoins andcthere is nothing leftcin circulation, it would defeat the purpose of its creation.

What it was created for and what it is used for has diverged. It was intended as a currency, but use and interest in bitcoin largely falls in the realm of speculative investing and profiting off price volatility. By volume, you could say that nobody seriously considers it as a currency. The business transactions it is legitimately used for are often to get around gambling restrictions placed on state-issued fiat currencies, or national anti-gambling laws. Most merchants who accept bitcoin only offer it to meet a niche demand, they do not hold or deal in bitcoins. They use third-party services to accept bitcoin on their behalf and instantly exchange it to fiat so they don't suffer any price volatility that plagues bitcoin

I've been telling basically the same for years

In reply to claims that Bitcoin adoption is "slowly but steadily increasing" between merchants. Nevertheless, having said that, I still keep to the opinion that the major cause for the lack of widescale and wildscale adoption is Bitcoin requirement to wait long minutes (sometimes even hours) before transaction confirmation. If Bitcoin would have been instant, that would help a lot in this aspect as well as help stabilize prices. Prices would be lower than now (for pretty simple reasons), but they would be more stable overall

I would gladly trade the high volatility for a lower and more stable price. If I had the choice between bitcoin being trading between $2500 and $3000 and being between $1750 and $1755 dollars, I would take the lower price range. The difference is huge. I would be poorer in dollar terms by quite a lot, but the wild price swings in that scenario makes bitcoin relatively useless for commerce and business. Under the second scenario, the bitcoins are worth a lot less, but trade in a small enough range that they could be useful for both commerce and business by allowing people to have a reliable expectation of what their bitcoin holdings are worth. That's what I crave most from btc.
1831  Economy / Economics / Re: You should never trust banks on: July 03, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
Banks are great when you need some extra money to buy a house or a house, but the only thing is that you will end pay over 30-80% the money you pick. Their service is something you wont find anywhere else, the % they charge is due to those people who ask for the money and dont repay, soo banks need to cover the loss, since the money belongs to the costumers.
It is not great. The bank just give you a loan if you can offer a reliable collateral for the bank itself. With high interest and it makes those loaners gets stressed to pay his interest to the bank.

Don't be fooled by the bank. Bank is not good place.

Well of course, nobody with money is going to lend it to you out of the goodness of their own heart. Lending involves risk that you won't pay them back, and they can reduce this risk by demanding collateral.  Interest is the "penalty" you pay for consuming something in the present you don't have the money to consume. Houses are expensive, so it's common for people to use loans to purchase them. For anything else, you ought to consider if paying interest to consume it now is a better option than waiting until you have the money to afford it.
1832  Economy / Economics / Re: You should never trust banks on: July 03, 2017, 10:09:23 PM
that's true banks are already up with their huge empire which is spread over whole world. its still surprises me that many people still now didn't realized about it they where just helping those evil banks with their all properties and those loans. People nowadays can stand against us if they found that we hate banks. Its not that we hate banks in true sense we just love this new monetary system which gives us freedom to do anything

And yet more than 90% of all bitcoin purchases are made by using banking services.
Kind of funny right?

Would bitcoin survive in it's current state without banks? I doubt it.
Just take a look at the price tanking when an exchange has problem with its bank accounts or deposits/withdraws.

Take a look in the other threads where people are cheering a bitcoin bank.
And they have cheered a lot in the past for a few so called "bitcoin banks" and we know how a few of them went... missing

Right on. Bitcoin has value because there is already a robust international banking system. People think Bitcoin steals value from or competes with banks, but it's actually the reverse- the banking system allows Bitcoin to have value. When the next international financial crisis happens, people will flee Bitcoin for safer assets, and the price will crash hard. Nobody is going to run to a more speculative assets when money is disappearing from the international system. That expectation is crazy

I strongly disagree with this point

And you will have a hard time defending it. Since you will have to explain not some obscure theory but harsh reality. I've been always claiming myself that ideas that the banking system (or, more specifically, the US dollar as many here assert) somehow gives Bitcoin value is outright bullshit, but that was mostly all theory. Now we see this theory proved in practice. Namely, the largest Bitcoin exchange, Bitfinex, has issues with USD deposits as well as withdrawals. In fact, you can neither deposit nor withdraw the US dollar altogether. According to your theory, Bitcoin should crash there since it is no longer supported by the US dollar, right? But we somehow see quite a different picture with Bitcoin steadily conquering new ATH's

You take a small data point and try to extrapolate it to a macro-event and then claim your narrow view of things is proof of your point. In this case, you are trying to claim that one exchange with some technical issues should sink the value of Bitcoin under my theory, which either intentionally misunderstands my point or proves you're incapable of understanding it. See if you can spot the difference between your scenario, and the idea that a robust and stable economic system allows for speculative assets to have value. If you can't understand the difference, ask someone for help. When you understand the difference, maybe you won't post nonsense. Again, to recap, Bitfinex having issues is NOT a global financial crisis, which is the point you directly responded to by quoting it

I guess you should rather try to defend your point

Instead of claiming that I don't understand (or misunderstand) something and should ask for help. You basically claim that Bitcoin has value because there is a working banking system (wtf, I seem to have repeated you words one by one). As to me, this is the point you should specifically address first (before asking me to go for help or elsewhere), namely, how can Bitcoin get its value from an existing banking system if Bitcoin itself is a banking system in its own right? In other words, it can exist even if the fiat banking system dies one day, and this is exactly what happened at Bitfinex. Anyway, this exchange is the largest Bitcoin exchange out there so you can't possibly discard it as a "small data point" (in short, the gods are closer to you than you think). If it really were so (as you speculate), we wouldn't see the Bitcoin price rising half a thousand dollars in a matter of two weeks (and then consolidating there). This you can't discard either and have to address as well. To sum it up, you can't discard reality for your wild fantasies

You didn't address anything of substance. You simply continued on without addressing the fact that you are claiming that trouble at bitfinex should tank bitcoin under my theory, which flat out isn't close to what I wrote. I said specifically, "when the next international financial crisis happens, people will flee bitcoin for safer assets, and the price will crash hard." You responded with 'but bitfiniex and price appreciation.'  So would you like to continue propagating the delusion that bitfinex constitutes a global financial crisis so you can try to conclude me theory to be inaccurate, or would you like to let a little more reality color your views?
1833  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Does Bitcoin has any intrinsic value? on: June 30, 2017, 05:01:40 PM
Didn't watch the video, but I find it funny when people start talking about bitcoin and intrinsic value to try to say its worthless. Think about what is intrinsic value. I'd say intrinsic value is defined by something that people NEED, that people are always going to need. This is a very small amount of things. Stuff to survive. Like food, shelter, land, clean water. Not much else has intrinsic value. Most of the economy is not built on things that have intrinsic value. But things that simply have value are things that are in demand, and the less supply of something in-demand, the greater its value. Bitcoin is in demand and in the coming years will be much much more in demand, while the supply is capped and won't increase much more. Therefore bitcoin's value will be huge. Intrinsic value doesn't matter.

Intrinsic value isn't only things people "need" but things where the value comes innately from the object. You can think of intrinsic value as a synonym for "utility."  Does something have value because it is useful, or is its value arbitrary? For example, silver is used in far more industrial applications than a metal like gold. Silver has more intrinsic value because it is useful for things people need to do, whereas gold's value is more arbitrary. It's just valuable because everyone agrees it is. (This is not a perfect example since gold has some industrial or medical uses, but overall it is a generally good illustration of intrinsic vs. arbitrary value.)
1834  Economy / Micro Earnings / Re: FreeBitco.in - Win free Bitcoins every hour! on: June 30, 2017, 04:53:34 PM
"Play MULTIPLY BTC or buy lottery tickets to increase your FREE BTC rewards by up to +0.00001501 BTC ".Ok?Ok, I play MULTIPLY BTC.And I do not increase FREE BTC rewards, i I reduce them.This is not right and should not work like this.


You haven't played enough to increase the reward, but also, your reward has not decreased.

The % is just a progress indicator to the next level. Your progress to the next level is determined by the ratio of how much you gamble vs. how much you claim for free. Every time you claim free sats, your ratio falls. Every time you gamble, your ratio rises. If you are gambling with small amounts, it will take a long time to get to the reward boost. But always remember, the more you claim for free, the more you have to gamble to get the reward. That's how it's supposed to work. Gambling is a business, this is designed to get you to gamble more. Don't complain about it, just be aware of how it works.
1835  Economy / Micro Earnings / Re: FreeBitco.in - Win free Bitcoins every hour! on: June 30, 2017, 04:48:20 PM
I don't want money from your guys, I just want to give you some important information to increase your daily earning.
With this trick don't be greedy otherwise it will make you poor.

Step 1- Login and go to multiply BTC
Step 2- Increase lose 100%
Step 3- set bet amount 5 satoshi
Step 4- Payout set to 3
Step 5- Roll 1000000

Note - you have to stop when you get 1000 satoshi and again played with different roll value for eg. 10000 and doing this method again and again
for more watch this video.

https://youtu.be/gycxB4vrr7M

this method have been tested by me.
it works 100%

please comment guys if you find this method useful.




 

If you have 100% success with this you haven't been doing it very long. I suggest setting a max bet or stop betting after loss amount particularly if you have a large balance to limit your losses when the inevitable long run of losing bets occurs.


It works, Idk why but it is still working.

Simple answer is small sample size. The smaller your sample size is, the more likely you are to get variance. That's why it has worked for you so far. Mathematically we can prove that the more rolls you play with this method, the greater the likelihood of losses gets. So any time you are in variance that shows profit, that is what you would call "luck."
1836  Economy / Speculation / Re: Crypto Bloodbath on: June 30, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
Now is the time to buy the dip and fill yer bags.

It's probably not over yet.

I would say that the market will always over adjust, and right now it has adjusted, though still probably not quite enough. i wouldn't be surprised if bitcoin were to go down to a level that is say, $1800,$1900. Something along the lines of that.

When it does happen, as you said it'll be a great opportunity to buy in.

Always go against crowd sentiment.

People who always go against the crowd sentiment end up getting destroyed by the market, since crowd sentiment is essentially what determines what is successful and what is not in capitalist markets. Every market is just the expression of crowd sentiment. The crowd gets irrational from time to time, which creates opportunity. But opperating on the assumption that the crowd is always wrong is a recipe for ruin.
1837  Economy / Speculation / Re: Crypto Bloodbath on: June 30, 2017, 12:55:16 PM

Its not actually a bloodbath because 10-20% decrease on the amount of bitcoin is just really a normal thing on this ecosystem and price corrections do really happen on it since we do know that bitcoins price is too volatile but yet this is the best time to buy more cheap bitcoins because later on it will climb up again and with that we can really make proits out of that movement.

Just because volatility is normal doesn't make the losses any less significant. A 20% loss of capital is a 20% loss of capital, whether something is fairly stable (like the USD) or very volatile (like BTC).  The only difference is whether you appropriately considered the likelihood of the' bloodbath.'
1838  Economy / Economics / Re: Is USD being used for illegal activities? on: June 30, 2017, 12:51:55 PM
BTC and USD are both fairly anonymous currencies (neither is perfectly anonymous). The government creates black markets, and black markets require anonymity. Anything that grants that is likely going to be used on those black markets.
1839  Economy / Speculation / Re: Crypto Bloodbath on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:39 AM

Bitcoin is quite possibly in its mania phase of this current bubble.  The idea that it will never go down in price is proof of that. Nothing goes straight up forever.


uh, can you point me to the mania? where's the talk of bank loans and buying lamborghinis? people have been dissing this rise all the way from the mid hundreds.

if you want mania then check an ethereum forum.

He's right about the mania. Every other post in this thread is about how great of a time it is to buy because the price is dropping and everyone posting sentiment like that believes it is garaunteed to go back up. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing is garaunteed about price,  and ultimately you could make money if you buy now, but if you're doing so because you think you're guaranteed to make profit, you're just a lucky idiot.
1840  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi, Bitcoin Is a Commodity Not a Currency on: June 21, 2017, 04:28:04 PM
Yeah it is a commodity, and also a currency.

People use it as a store of value and a long term investment. A safe house for keeping your money. Because keeping you rmoney in FIAT in almost any country means you are losing value each year as inflation picks up.


Using it as a currency is obvious. We use it to buy and sell things. We use it as a means of trade, ergo a currency. Many many people and businesses now accept bitcoin, it essentially is a currency for a lot of people.

The inflationary risks of holding wealth in USD pales in comparison to the volatility risks of holding wealth in Bitcoin. The federal reserve targets an inflation rate of 2% per year. Bitcoin reguarly hits swings of 25% in a single week. Do not let bitcoin's LONGTERM general upward trend disguise the actual risk of of severe short term losses when you may need cash. To the rational investor, it's not even a question.
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