I'm telling you shut up already because its impossible to provide a better alternative to capitalism. LOL. "Ours is the one true way, no other way is possible!" This, children, is what fundamentalist thinking looks like. Do you see the parallels here between religious and economic fundamentalism? One of these days you libertards will figure out that I'm not actually debating you for your sake, or for mine. You economic fundamentalists are - like religious fundamentalists - tragically beyond my help. Your indoctrination goes far too deep. You cannot unlearn those lies now, it's too painful for your fragile ego. I'm debating you for the sake of all the silent readers out there, present and future. Those capable of thinking beyond the narrow constraints of your schooling-brainwashed minds. Once again, I'll leave you with the historical facts you continue to ignore: "Before capitalism, there were other ways. Feudalism was what existed in Europe for a thousand years before we had modern capitalism. And before that, slavery - yet another system - another way of organizing who does the work and who gets the profits and so on. And the interesting thing is that every other system that we have a record of in the human race, was born, evolved over time, and eventually passed away. What always has intrigued me, is the need for those people living in capitalism today, to think it's going to be the great exception. It was born, basically in England 300 years ago, it has evolved over the last three centuries. But when you say, "yes, but that means it will also pass away and give rise to another system", people get all kinds of strange worries because they don't want to think about that. And so they begin to imagine that this system [capitalism] will be forever, in a way no other system in history has proved itself to be." -Dr. Richard Wolff |
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And 50 million people died of starvation under Mao's communism.
What does that say about the alternatives to capitalism? It only says that you're looking backwards 50 years in time for solutions instead of looking forwards. It also says that your mind is closed on this matter. Mao's great leap forward led to millions starving, yes, that's true. Meanwhile in America, police dogs were being unleashed upon unarmed african americans who were marching for equality.  Social evolution only progresses forward through time, not backwards. Consider listening to Russell Brand for a minute or five. 10 million others already have. Will you please just give it a rest dude? "Quiet down, serf! You're upsetting the masters! Why can't you just accept your place as an unthinking wage-slave like the rest of us?" |
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Also many of the countries where people die of hunger are in a state of political chaos, often they are being run by dictators.
How do you expect a society in chaos to prosper? Of course there will be hunger.   Poverty affects children more than any other age group here in America. We have tremendous wealth here yet we let innocent children go hungry.  Particularly in the south, where fundamentalist thinking and religion are strongest. What does that say about capitalism?  Would you say America is a society in chaos? I don't see chaos at all, I see extremely well-organized, hierarchy based structural violence. The number of children living in poverty in the USA has spiked back upwards since the 2008 financial crisis. What does that say about the way we have handled the crisis?  Over 1 in 3 black & hispanic children are living in poverty. What does that say about race relations and inequality? |
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Most people work and can buy all of those things. And those who can't will get assistance from either their families or charitable organizations. According to the World Health Organization, hunger is the single gravest threat to the world's public health. The WHO also states that malnutrition is by far the biggest contributor to child mortality, present in half of all cases. Undernutrition is a contributory factor in the death of 3.1 million children under five every year. Capitalism wastes 5/9ths of all food produced annually, and 3 million children die as a result every year. Somehow I don't think charity is cutting it. I also don't think there's any ethical or intellectually honest way to defend this horrid system. "The worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, because they prevented the core of the system from being realized by those who suffered from it and understood by those who contemplated it. Charity degrades and demoralizes.
It is immoral to use private property in order to alleviate the horrible evils that result from the institution of private property. Nice as its sounds, this kind of 'trade with the rich' is not a solution."
-Slavoj Zizek Moving on: Bullshit: Capitalism is the only economic system that can succeed without fraud or initiating the use of force. Capitalism without force? Capitalism without fraud? Bullshit indeed! Thank you for prefacing your statement with that honest qualifier! Please tell me when and where in history EITHER of those two scenarios has existed anywhere other than your imagination. I'd sure love to hear about this mythical capitalist utopia... Maybe I can visit? If it is so bad, I wonder why it is the only surviving system.  The same reason fiat central banking was the only surviving system until Bitcoin arrived - organized capitalists can and will do horrible violence and sabotage to suppress any competition for their profits. Now, imagine for a moment just how many self-assured aristocrats throughout history have said the same of their own society's temporary political-economic design. Looks like we need to get back to basics: "Before capitalism, there were other ways. Feudalism was what existed in Europe for a thousand years before we had modern capitalism. And before that, slavery - yet another system - another way of organizing who does the work and who gets the profits and so on. And the interesting thing is that every other system that we have a record of in the human race, was born, evolved over time, and eventually passed away. What always has intrigued me, is the need for those people living in capitalism today, to think it's going to be the great exception. It was born, basically in England 300 years ago, it has evolved over the last three centuries. But when you say, "yes, but that means it will also pass away and give rise to another system", people get all kinds of strange worries because they don't want to think about that. And so they begin to imagine that this system will be forever, in a way no other system in history has proved itself to be." -Dr. Wolff "And our resistance to any challenge to capitalism is ferocious in the United States. I mean the essence of the Cold War in our lifetimes is not the Soviets were intrinsically evil, it was that the Soviets practice an economic system called Communism, and that represents an existential threat to the United States, to our way of life, and to everything that we hold dear and believe to be true. And so it was really a battle over an economic system." -Thom Hartmann "Absolutely, I think the important things to remember are these. Before World War II, that is before the cold war that started after '45 got going, Americans were able to discuss capitalism as a system, socialism and communism as some of the various alternatives and so on. It didn't seem to threaten our society at least for large numbers of our people, to have a conversation, to assess the strengths and weaknesses of different systems. To be kind of rational adults talking about this question. And even after 1945 in places like France or Germany or Italy or many other countries that we are close to, socialist parties thrived. The French government today is a socialist government. Socialists are part of governments in many European countries, didn't seem to fall apart in Europe. It was something rational people could talk about. But here in the United States, it became a taboo. Since 1945, what you did is you shut down the debate. You made it no longer a question of discussing systems, trying to see if we could do better than capitalism in part - all of that became impossible. To question capitalism, let alone to explore the alternatives took on the aura of an act of disloyalty. It was wonderful for the capitalists, because it basically proscribed any kind of debate or discussion or criticism as beyond the pale. We are only NOW, fifty years into the taboo, finally coming out of the kind of funk that we were in as a nation. Now that we see how poorly the capitalist system serves the majority of people in the US, slowly we are emerging back to the place we should never have left - which is an open honest debate and discussion about the alternatives systems past, present, and future - that will shape how we live as a people." -Dr. Wolff ------------------------ This is precisely what I mean when I use the term "economic fundamentalism". You can see the logical leaps a person must make to believe capitalism is the be-all end-all of economics. This is what makes it a close cousin to religious fundamentalism. Conversations with Great Minds part 1 - Dr. Richard Wolff with Thom Hartmann Conversations with Great Minds part 2To that, I will add this:  "Garry Leech, an author who had previously penned a book on the FARC insurgency in Colombia (2011), has assembled a forceful denunciation of the status quo with Capitalism: A Structural Genocide. In essence, he argues cogently in this work that the devastating structural violence experienced by societies subjected to the rule of capital since its historical emergence - and that particularly felt by the world's presently impoverished social majorities - is, instead of being an aberration or distortion of market imperatives, central and inherent to the division of society along class lines and the enthronement of private property. Even a cursory examination of the depth of human suffering perpetuated historically and contemporarily by the hegemony of capital should lead disinterested observers to agree with Leech that the catastrophic scale of violence for which this system is responsible can be considered nothing less than genocidal, however shocking such a conclusion might prove to be." http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16887-the-structural-genocide-that-is-capitalism |
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The bank can issue their own coins.Imitating the bitcoin！
They can also issue their own social media site, imitating Facebook! They can also issue their own cell phone network, imitating Verizon! They can also issue their own internet protocols, imitating HTTP! They can also issue their own pizza, imitating Pizza Hut! They can also issue their own movies, imitating Netflix! I'll give you some time to figure out why no bank has ever done any of the above successfully. Okay, I can see your stumped. The reasons is: They don't need to. Banks don't need to innovate! They're made of money! Not only do they get to print money from thin air with the magic of fractional reserve banking, they can also gamble with national economies AND LOSE, because they're "too big to fail"! When you own the government, you can just sit on your fat pile of money, shitting ever more money, and never do a damn thing for society. Banksters are parasites. Central banks are government-endorsed ponzi schemes. Get it? |
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Capitalism is a economic system. It doesn't have to be any "survival competition". Wrong. Capitalism has EVERYTHING to do with survival until food, shelter, healthcare, and education are provided free to all human beings as a birthright. If someone falls you would natural help that person up. In what twisted fucking fantasy version capitalism does this actually happen? When someone falls you stomp their face into the mud, pick their pockets, and run off. Selfishness is the manifest reality of capitalism. Take the blinders off and see your society for what it is. Would it be against human nature to be involved in voluntary trade? The part where if we serfs don't pay our rent to our land lords, they send the knights(police) to haul us away in chains(handcuffs) and throw us out into the streets to die of exposure. Here in NYC, the homeless often relieve themselves in phonebooths to avoid being caught exposing themselves publicly and thrown into dungeons. Or the part where if a starving person takes food without permission, thereby cutting into some capitalist's profit-margins, that person has committed a crime, and will be thrown into a dungeon(prison) to rot. Capitalism is little more than thinly-veiled feudalism. A society governed by violence first and reason second (if at all). Any lover of reason must be opposed to violence, because the world is a zero-sum game between reason and violence. Where one waxes, the other wanes. Capitalism cannot exist without systemic, mass-scale violence. Ergo, any person who wants to live in a world governed by reason must be opposed to capitalism. Premise Four: "Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims." Premise Five: " The property of those higher on the hierarchy is more valuable than the lives of those below. It is acceptable for those above to increase the amount of property they control—in everyday language, to make money—by destroying or taking the lives of those below. This is called production. If those below damage the property of those above, those above may kill or otherwise destroy the lives of those below. This is called justice." -Derrick Jensen Fuedalism. With heavy makeup, dressed in its Sunday best, delivered with a warm smile and a charismatic speech. That's all capitalism is. Once you accept this reality, there is no way for any person with an ounce of compassion in their heart to be be anything but disgusted by it. |
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Anyone wish to comment on this point ? Any of you libertarians out there ? Yes, come on libertarians. What are you waiting for? Bring on more of your capitalism-apologist economic fundamentalist folly. I do enjoy crushing your weak arguments with extreme prejudice. Yeah like when you left the thread for 2 weeks because you had no counter arguments. I didn't know you enjoyed debating "economic fundamentalists". At least in the past you have referred to them as "not intelligent enough to engage in debates". Cool story bro. Capitalism & intra-societal survival competition are still fundamentally incompatible with human nature. Real human nature, not the social-darwinist nonsense you were brainwashed with in your factory-school. |
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Let me help you out with that OP. Here is a 4-way political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/test I score at the far bottom left, as an anarcho-socialist. I believe firmly that human beings are neuro-biologically wired for empathy, and that selfishness and competition are culturally imbued values. If you want to see evidence for that assertion, you need only tune your TV to any American (un)"reality" show. Contrast that culture against the emotional openness of very young children or indigenous tribes. |
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Anyone wish to comment on this point ? Any of you libertarians out there ? Yes, come on libertarians. What are you waiting for? Bring on more of your capitalism-apologist economic fundamentalist folly. I do enjoy crushing your weak arguments with extreme prejudice. |
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That was a pretty good flashback commentary from the future, Dr. Brown. I can see that being an exhibit at The Henry Ford Museum at some point down the line. Thanks. I do what little I can to serve the community of the future, to offset all that my generation is robbing from them with our selfish and myopic ways. First and foremost being a livable planet. |
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Or... maybe the people who value Bitcoin do so because of it's useful properties which are unlike any other asset on the planet?
...I happen to think that censorship proof money is quite priceless in today's world of increasing capital controls. Nailed it. Bitcoin is not "priceless", however at the present moment it is certainly way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way undervalued. Historical Note: October 10th, 2014, Bitcoin trading at ~$360 US dollars. If you're reading this from the future and wondering what a "US dollar" was, it was a paper thin promise-note made of cotton and ink, issued by national governments that folks used to use before the age of cryptocurrency. If you're reading the distant future and now wondering what a "national government" was, it was a group of men with concentrated power that was derived from violence, coercion, mass-deception, and mass-indoctrination. A relic from before the age of reason usurped violence. |
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Stopped listening at the 40 second mark when he said "bitcoin is anonymous". That's flatly wrong. While I do support Amir's philosophy and his work (dark wallet), I'm sorry, but if he makes a mistake that huge this early in his speech, I have to assume this man does not know what the hell he is talking about. I like what he has to say, but he is so painful to listen to. He is a terrible speaker. Amir, please take some public speaking classes. QFT. Amir, no offense, but leave the speeches to Andreas & Jeff Garzik. |
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It is very surprising that paypal is talking about accepting bitcoins. Not really. Plenty of smart people work at Paypal. They don't want to go the way of Blockbuster Video. |
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Is there a possibility that LESS than 21 million coins will ever be mined? Yes, all things are possible. Probable? Actually, yes, I think it is rather probable. Given our technology curve could very well create an abundance society which makes currency obsolete before 2140. |
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As of this moment it would've only been 60 grand. It's really not enough capital to start a viable business. It's nothing, when you consider I (and many others) knew of Bitcoin in late 2009 and didn't mine. I was extremely skeptical at the time of the nearly-worthless nerd money.
I could be rich and retired by now! Ah well, hindsight is always 20/20. You can't kick yourself for not knowing, just realize you're lucky to be in the 0.1% of the population that has any Bitcoin at all this early in the game.
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If you really wanted to prevent horrendous ecological catastrophe, you would need to stop global industrial production in its tracks. And the time to do so would've been twenty years ago. It is abundantly clear that this train we're on is not going to stop anytime soon. It is not even going to slow. There is no political will for non-profitable anti-industrialism to be found within capitalism.
My advice: Forget about Earth. You're powerless without the ability to communicate in the language of capitalism - that is, without the capability to dispense violence on a mass scale. Just enjoy the crazy ride of the Halocene Extinction event as we plow on toward our own potential extinction.
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