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201  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Quora discussion - Is the cryptocurrency Bitcoin a good idea? on: May 18, 2011, 06:36:49 PM
It's an interesting article.  I think each of his four points are true.  However, the conclusions he draws from them are mostly incorrect.


Severe Problem Number 1: Seeding Initial Wealth-

I don't think calling it severe is true, but it could have been done better.  The initial rollout was far too quick.  It should have mirrored an optimistic case of number of users on time, then converted to a predictable function (such as tan-1 shifted).  This is mainly a problem in that a lot of people are pissed that a lot of people get something for free just for being first, and also because it means that a small number of people control a lot of the wealth which makes things unstable.

Severe Problem Number 2: Built in Deflation.

This is not a problem.  Economists are of course scared of deflation, yet they cannot explain the consumer electronics industry.  Deflation is fine- it encourages savings.  If a lot of people save, it means that things that are being sold are sold for cheaper prices.  Things become less expensive.  Everyone becomes wealthier (except those pesky bankers).  When's the last time you heard an economist complain that gas prices are too cheap and they need to go up to drive the economy?  Only environmentalists have this position.

Severe Problem Number 3: Lack of Convertibility

Fairly big problem until the economy grows.  People still need fiat currency.  They need conversions.  This costs fees.  Bitcoin is not very useful if you need to go in and out of fiat, unless that process was extremely expensive before.  If the economy grows, there's no need to convert anything.  No one converts dollars for gold anymore.  This problem may not go away, but that's not that awful of a thing.  It has the potential to go away if it takes off and becomes more widely accepted.  There's no technical reason it couldn't go away.  It's more practical in nature.

Severe Problem Number 4: When Something Goes Wrong, It Will Die

Biggest concern.  While distributed, there are a ton of choke points.  The exchanges could get their funds confiscated by the government and a lot of people are out of a lot of cash.  If there is a panic, it might eliminate confidence.  If someone makes a better version, it may die.  Small economies tend to be very unstable.  Will Bitcoin have the strength?  Who knows.


So he's not that far off in his observations, but he is WAY off in his implications of these predictions.  And I'm not surprised- conventional wisdom says "moderate inflation good, deflation bad!", "I need dollars!", "I don't like other people getting rich for free!".  So that's why he thinks that way.

The deflation argument needs to be attacked.  It's so widespread, people are so scared of it.  The really question we need to ask is "so?"  And see why people actually think its bad.  The problem is most people think of wealth as currency.  Wealth is not currency.  Wealth is goods and services that people value.  Currency is only something that people redeem for such things.  If people are not buying something, then they are leaving it available to be purchased by someone else for cheaper.  Or they are investing which means that they are delaying their redeeming it for a later time when more should be available (after the investment actually increases the economy).  Investment is a great thing and should be encouraged.  A deflationary currency will encourage sound investments.
202  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 06:35:52 PM
I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

He has a point. It is simply taboo to root for reduced government power in France. The first reaction people have to any kind of issue is "what is the government doing about it?"

That's not terribly different than 90% Americans today.

I had a much different impression. The Tea Party push during last elections was big enough that every French channel talk about it at least once. Compared to this, the most extreme rightist French economists could be considered communists.

The Tea Party was originally formed as an anti-government group, but was quickly corrupted by mainstream politicians to advance anti-Democrat position.  It went from a "small government" group to a "we hate Barack Obama" group very quickly.  A huge number of Tea Party supporters now also think George W. Bush was a good president.  They like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, love Social Security and Medicare, and want the government to make sure people live upstanding lifestyles.  That is far from what it's original principles were.


I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

He has a point. It is simply taboo to root for reduced government power in France. The first reaction people have to any kind of issue is "what is the government doing about it?"

That's not terribly different than 90% Americans today.

You just pulled that number from your anal regions.  I doubt that it's anywhere near that high.  The Advocates for Self-Government says that their "World's Smallest Political Quiz" implies that libertarians are roughly 30% of the tested population.  If that is remotely representative, it's not even possible for more than 70% of Americans to default to "what is the government going to do about it".

That quiz is biased to get a lot of people identified as libertarians.  It's by design that it's high.  That doesn't mean they are actually libertarian.
203  Economy / Economics / Re: BitCoin Bank on: May 18, 2011, 06:30:27 PM
It's much different than the current system.  If I default on my car loan, they take my car.  If I default on my mortgage, they take my house.  If I default on my credit card, they come after me for it and can win a judgment against me.

The first two are secured loans, and require some way of securing which usually is by default local. I can't in country A secure credit in country B using my house/car etc. because they can't get it, if I default (easily).

Secured loans just affect the risk ratio, an easy "takeble" item so lowering the rate you pay interest as collateral.

But take most unsecure loans or a credit card, in those cases essentially they have 3 outcomes
1) You pay
2) You default and they call ballifs to take goods upto the value
3) They wipe it out as bad debt, and make sure you can never get credit again.

3 is for many people what happens, the real reason you want to keep paying your credit bills is so you CAN get credit in future.

As soon as the first bitcoin bank is setup I fully expect a bad debt protocol will come with it, perhaps even a name and shame system (public bad debt record as used in England in the last few centuries).

My thoughts in being a banker, is that I'd accept bad debt will happen sometimes, its part of the business and that risk will be calculated in the interest rates people would pay. Want cheaper interests rates, prove to me your less of a risk (complete loans etc.)


#3 happens, but people often need to file for bankruptcy, and their assets get cleaned out for it.  It's not a trivial process.  There is the arm of the government legal system that they have that they can use as well.

I think the shame/good name system could work, although proving yourself initially is going to be quite costly.  No one will loan to you without really high interest rates (credit cards have quite high interest rates).  But you won't want a high interest loan unless you are very profitable, trying to prove yourself and will pay the cost, or are a scammer.  It's also easy to create a new identity from scratch, so you could just go through that process a lot.  Someone will be creative and find a way to make this work if it's a good idea, though.
204  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 05:59:37 PM
I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

He has a point. It is simply taboo to root for reduced government power in France. The first reaction people have to any kind of issue is "what is the government doing about it?"

That's not terribly different than 90% Americans today.
205  Economy / Economics / Re: BitCoin Bank on: May 18, 2011, 05:57:47 PM
Each bank will have its own risk assessment... reputation, a current account and other details are likely to be the minimum for a loan.

Its no different from the current banking/loan system, Can you prove you are working? Do you have a bad credit history? Have you lived at your current location for several years? Can you show ID?

No loan is going to be given anonymously, as a standard business I can profile a customer quite well based on digital information. As banks grow this profile will likely get better as well.

I'd also expect credit rating agency to appear to track bad credit just as they do now.

Some loans will go bad of course, but that risk factor goes into everybody loans interests rates.

It's much different than the current system.  If I default on my car loan, they take my car.  If I default on my mortgage, they take my house.  If I default on my credit card, they come after me for it and can win a judgment against me.
206  Economy / Economics / Re: When's the next difficulty change? on: May 18, 2011, 05:56:28 PM
I'm curious about peoples predictions of what happens next.

Difficulty is bumping up 50%, meaning drastically reduced mining rates for... everyone. Price seems to have stabilized / capped around 7USD per bitcoin for now.

Will the price shoot up to offset the difficulty again or will it remain stable/drop in response to people dropping out of the bitcoin game?

Price should rise a little due to decreased supply.  Right now there are 10 blocks mined per hour, rather than the 6 that should be.  That's a big supply difference.

As for difficulty not going up any more, we still have a much lower difficulty than the price has historically dictated.  Rigs that are already set up are profitable vs. their variable costs, so it's not like they are going anywhere.  The increase in new rigs may decrease, but someone who already has hardware might find out about Bitcoin and start mining.
207  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 05:53:57 PM
Honestly, I couldn't care less if Europeans use Bitcoin or not.
Yeah, because we all know that none of us West-Europeans are using bitcoin at all Tongue A lot of us would also like for the world of banking to be disrupted. Especially for doing business internationally it's way too complicated right now to take payments. For me, it has little to do with trusting or not trusting the government... Today's more and more globalized world needs something better than the current patchwork of toll-taking banks.

I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

I'd be surprised if Europeans didn't have more trust in their governments even 60 years ago.

Part of it is cultural - if you have a pretty consistent culture over a long period of time with not a lot of mixing, conformist tendencies tend to be greater.

The type of person who came to the US as an immigrant (from anywhere) is someone who is not content with their lifestyle and is willing to actually do something about it.  People who moved west to a new area where there was uncertainty took a lot of risk and only is going to be popular among certain personality traits.
208  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Pain realizing early stupidity on: May 18, 2011, 05:35:07 PM
Ouch, it really hurts when you realize you sold Bitcoins that would be worth more 70 000USD now for 20 USD a year ago. Cry

Anyone else here who know how it feels?
Or anyone here happy to have done so?

If you had 10,000 BTC now, would you actually sell them for 70,000 USD? Or would you wait another year and sell them for $1m?


Or wait 5 years and sell them for $1 TRILLION.
209  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Difficulty increase - 60% on: May 18, 2011, 05:04:57 PM
Is there some page somewhere that lists the difficulty history? And possibly, what date/time each jump occurred?


I had this before my computer crashed Sad  I wrote a script that looked at Block Explorer.  If you really want to, you can use block explorer and go every 2016 blocks.
210  Economy / Economics / Re: Moving away from BTC, like the Gold Standard? on: May 18, 2011, 05:02:13 PM
I read somewhere that 90% or more of Economics professors get significant funding from the Fed.  So of course they are in favor of centralized banking.
211  Economy / Economics / Re: Using Bitcoin agents for international money transfers on: May 18, 2011, 05:01:17 PM
The fees you are paying are much more insignificant than other countries.  I expect some fee to be eaten up on overhead.  The banks will pay a fee when they exchange on the market, and they will want some money for their trouble as well.  You are paying a 7% fee.  Sure, that's high, but perhaps it's not too crazy.  Obviously Bitcoin would help (but perhaps not for only 7% fee).  For the huge fees mentioned earlier, I'm trying to figure out why they are so high.  If you wanted to recreate the same experience for the USD to EUR wire, the 7% seems in line.  You go somewhere physically and hand them cash.  They wire the money, then your friend picks it up somewhere.  This could be linked direct to bank accounts, but let's focus on this case.

You buy your bitcoins in a store, perhaps using a BitBill or some other service.  Say that's a 3.5% fee (no idea what BitBill charges).  Then you cash out using a local trader who charges a 3.5% fee.  There's your 7%.

If you never have to convert currency then you don't get bit, but same could be said if your friend just sent you $100 and you never needed to convert it.


The 25% fees, that's where i want to know where they are coming from.  That will be the place where Bitcoin could be superior.

I'm already more than satisfied to be able to reduce a 7% fee to 3.5% thanks to Bitcoin. That's ample argument for me.

The 25% sounds outrageous.

How are you able to do it?  What is the fee you pay?

How did you do it before?
212  Economy / Economics / Re: BitCoin Bank on: May 18, 2011, 04:22:04 PM
if its not an international bank, then its of less importance..

Perhaps, but an Australian bitcoin bank could still be mighty handy for Australians, regardless of whether or not other countries have them too.



And the banks could do business with each other based on reputation.
213  Economy / Economics / Re: Using Bitcoin agents for international money transfers on: May 18, 2011, 04:21:24 PM
What is the reason why the fees are so high in some places?  Are there expensive regulations to adhere to?  Taxes?

Well you have to consider that changing into a local currency can be really expensive. If a friend sends me a bank wire for $100 dollar, ill be getting 65.5 euros instead of 70.5. The Bitcoin would help avoiding that.

The fees you are paying are much more insignificant than other countries.  I expect some fee to be eaten up on overhead.  The banks will pay a fee when they exchange on the market, and they will want some money for their trouble as well.  You are paying a 7% fee.  Sure, that's high, but perhaps it's not too crazy.  Obviously Bitcoin would help (but perhaps not for only 7% fee).  For the huge fees mentioned earlier, I'm trying to figure out why they are so high.  If you wanted to recreate the same experience for the USD to EUR wire, the 7% seems in line.  You go somewhere physically and hand them cash.  They wire the money, then your friend picks it up somewhere.  This could be linked direct to bank accounts, but let's focus on this case.

You buy your bitcoins in a store, perhaps using a BitBill or some other service.  Say that's a 3.5% fee (no idea what BitBill charges).  Then you cash out using a local trader who charges a 3.5% fee.  There's your 7%.

If you never have to convert currency then you don't get bit, but same could be said if your friend just sent you $100 and you never needed to convert it.


The 25% fees, that's where i want to know where they are coming from.  That will be the place where Bitcoin could be superior.
214  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fixing the "mining problem" on: May 18, 2011, 04:02:41 PM
Hey, hoarders are just as bad don't let them off the hook. Hoarding is what happens with a deflationary currency, good luck changing that!

Oh noes, a currency that increases by 25% per year is deflationary!
215  Economy / Economics / Re: Using Bitcoin agents for international money transfers on: May 18, 2011, 03:56:01 PM
What is the reason why the fees are so high in some places?  Are there expensive regulations to adhere to?  Taxes?
216  Economy / Economics / Re: How to discourage hoarding - brainstorm on: May 18, 2011, 03:50:56 PM


Eventually we will hit a point that each hoarder will realize he has a lot of wealth and wants to enjoy it.  Just hope it's not all at the same time.

It's not even going to be all at the same time for each individual in most cases. And unless people are dumb they're going to try to dump during periods of influx of demand (I assume these will continue, what do I know though?). This will temper spikes.

It probably won't, but it might.  If there was a lack of confidence in the system, or perhaps a panic where people thought "this is the absolute peak, it's going down to 0, better get what I can", you'll see a massive dump.  That would only happen if the actual value of the coin was much higher than the perceived value by the hoarders, and they believed that everyone else was figuring it out as well.

This problem is somewhat magnified by the fact that a very few number of people have a significant amount of hoarded coins.  This means that there are less decision points on when to sell, and it's easier to get a panic when you only need a few people involved.  On the other hand, it means those few people are fairly dedicated and unlikely to panic where a lot of people in a crowd may.  It does create a more volatile market since smaller number of individuals act with bigger forces than a lot of little ones, but it just means things might be rockier than normal.
217  Economy / Economics / Re: BitCoin Bank on: May 18, 2011, 03:45:14 PM
exactly, and what is a bitcoin bank going to use as collateral?

There's no reason to think this couldn't be done with the existing legal system.  Reputation is also collateral in some respect (or could be).  If you don't pay your debt, your reputation is smeared and no one will do business with you.
218  Economy / Economics / Re: How to discourage hoarding - brainstorm on: May 18, 2011, 03:04:08 PM
Hoarding is only a problem if the hoarded value is ever dumped at the same time.  If it's gradual, things will adjust fairly well.  Or if they just hoard forever and never spend it, it's like the coins never existed and that's fine.

Eventually we will hit a point that each hoarder will realize he has a lot of wealth and wants to enjoy it.  Just hope it's not all at the same time.
219  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin price increases are just getting started on: May 17, 2011, 10:05:38 PM
i'm afraid i still just don't see the logic of the complaint. if i'm paid $100,000 a year, have $50,000 of expenses, and owe $20,000 in us taxes, i can take the remaining $30,000 and invest it how i'd like. if i invest it elsewhere, dollar inflation doesn't hurt me as an investor. and the capital-gain-realization rules mean i don't have to pay any taxes on (many kinds of) investments until i choose to sell them.

even if i'm not paid in dollars, the 'tax' requirement doesn't meaningfully subject my investments to inflation. if i'm paid in gold, i just have to convert some to dollars to pay us taxes. i can complain that it's expensive to convert gold into dollars (though it isn't), but dollar-inflation still isn't affecting me unless i choose to let it by screwing up the timing of my conversions. (indeed, dollar-inflation helps me because my $X taxes will seem lower after inflation, so i benefit because i was paid in gold.)

again, i don't see any way around the proposition that regardless of 'legal tender' and 'tax' rules, dollar-inflation hurts you only if you choose to let it, or if your business circumstances require you to let it. either way, the government isn't forcing you to experience the harms of any of the inflationary currencies that exist. thus my puzzlement at the misplaced anger.

You aren't the average person. Making wise investments is not as easy as you make it out to be or everyone would do it. It's not the wise investor that inflation hurts. It's the average Joe that likes to put some money away for a rainy day. Most people are paid in fiat currency, spend in fiat currency, and save in fiat currency.

Inflation hurts the average person in other ways that we haven't discussed, and I'm certain you understand them without having me explain them to you. tomcollins already gave another example.

I agree, to get angry is the incorrect response. Fix your own finances so that it doesn't affect you. This takes time, knowledge, and money to achieve.

Even if you are a wise investor, you get hurt.  Just not as much.  Unless you are a wise and connected investor.
220  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin price increases are just getting started on: May 17, 2011, 09:42:27 PM
i'm afraid i still just don't see the logic of the complaint. if i'm paid $100,000 a year, have $50,000 of expenses, and owe $20,000 in us taxes, i can take the remaining $30,000 and invest it how i'd like. if i invest it elsewhere, dollar inflation doesn't hurt me as an investor. and the capital-gain-realization rules mean i don't have to pay any taxes on (many kinds of) investments until i choose to sell them.

even if i'm not paid in dollars, the 'tax' requirement doesn't meaningfully subject my investments to inflation. if i'm paid in gold, i just have to convert some to dollars to pay us taxes. i can complain that it's expensive to convert gold into dollars (though it isn't), but dollar-inflation still isn't affecting me unless i choose to let it by screwing up the timing of my conversions. (indeed, dollar-inflation helps me because my $X taxes will seem lower after inflation, so i benefit because i was paid in gold.)

again, i don't see any way around the proposition that regardless of 'legal tender' and 'tax' rules, dollar-inflation hurts you only if you choose to let it, or if your business circumstances require you to let it. either way, the government isn't forcing you to experience the harms of any of the inflationary currencies that exist. thus my puzzlement at the misplaced anger.

You are wrong for several reasons.

1)  You invest in something that holds value with inflation.  You get taxed on capital gains on this.  If you invest in something that gains value above inflation,  you are taxed far more than the actual gains.

2)  Inflation benefits the first people who get new money at the expense of people who already have money.  The earlier you are to receive the money, the more you benefit than those at the bottom of the chain.  The top of the chain is the politically connected (not you).  Think about the BTC economy.  Suppose no one is trading in and out and there is a constant set of people in it all producing a certain amount that's constant year to year.  Each time someone mines a block of 50, they get the spending power of 50 BTC immediately.  Everyone else is 50/total number of coins * their coins poorer.  The economy has not grown, but the money supply has.  We accept this with Bitcoins because it will not happen forever, mining the 50 coins was not cheap and not really done for free, and it is useful in tracking transactions.  When a politician can create money from thin air, or a bank can, it is those who are connected who benefit and it is done without cost.

You are being screwed no matter what you do, it's just a matter of how badly.  Unless you are politically connected, then counterfeiting is the greatest thing ever for you.
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