Bitcoin Forum
June 20, 2024, 10:03:17 AM *
News: Voting for pizza day contest
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 [102] 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 ... 391 »
2021  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof that Proof of Stake is either extremely vulnerable or totally centralised on: March 04, 2016, 09:03:23 PM
The only way to distinguish which was first is either a decentralized objectivity which is the longest-chain-rule, or a centralized objectivity such as community/developer checkpoints.

There is a 3rd way, Economic Clustering and in Nxt it's implemented in a way that doesn't require human intervention after initial setting.

Thus you mean centralization. Otherwise you get non-convergence of consensus (e.g. three clusters of 33% each). You keep making the same design error, which you've repeated with Iota.
2022  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof that Proof of Stake is either extremely vulnerable or totally centralised on: March 04, 2016, 09:01:46 PM
We are interested in trustless, decentralized crypto currency. That is what Satoshi pitched to us in his white paper. Satoshi's design is also flawed though.

Besides this does nothing to stop the attack monsterer outlined. Whose stake is valid? Whose is current, the reorganized block chain or the reorganized one? Which one was the reorganized one? You see proof-of-shit is self-referential and thus can't prove anything about itself.

Trustless decentralized crypto-currency is probably impossible.*  (http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf)

Section 4 of that white paper is written by an idiot who doesn't understand economics.

51% attacking a coin requires it to be economic. The attacker must be able to make gains which exceed his costs of attacking. The problem for the attacker in PoW is that the attack is only sustained for as long as the attacker continues to spend on electricity. Thus shorting the coin is probably not going to work, since everyone knows the attacker has to sustain a negative income situation indefinitely. Contrasted with PoS where you only need to have owned the coins once (even if you've already spent them!).  Shocked

The attacker can attempt to double-spend his coins, but the community is very like to blacklist his double-spent coins thus removing his income.

The viable 51% attack is the one that forces KYC on all transactions or changes the protocol in ways that the masses don't object to. The State is the one who has the incentive to do this attack.

Or in Bitcoin's example for the mining cartel to block protocol updates such as block size increases to increase their profits via rising transaction fees.

I have a solution for the latter two economic attacks which also will reduce the electricity consumption to an insignificant level.

No matter what the design, in the end you have to trust human beings at some level.

Not in my design.

In my opinion the security trade-offs in proof-of-stake favor decentralization.  The active research in consensus protocols may give us new tools and techniques to sufficiently increase the security of PoS to practical levels of "trustlessness".  The energy efficiency of proof-of-stake consensus as well as the low barrier-to-entry for participants make it a worthwhile pursuit in my opinion, and in the long run Bitcoin itself will benefit from proof-of-stake experimentation.

You are ignorant.
2023  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof that Proof of Stake is either extremely vulnerable or totally centralised on: March 04, 2016, 08:44:35 PM
max reorg depth in NXT is 720 blocks

Checkpoints are centralization.
Mex reorg depth isn't checkpoints.

It is if you expect it to be honored objectively by offline nodes (propagation isn't objective proof because it can be Sybil attacked). I will let monsterer explain that to you, if you don't understand.

May be you will explain us what exactly is centralised in a cryptocurrency (doesn't matter PoS or PoW) whose nodes reject reorgs if they are deeper than the max allowed depth?

Maybe first you can explain why you are too ignorant to understand what I wrote which thus makes your reply irrelevant noise.

I like to quote such sentences for posterity.

Now on the matter. If your node discovers a fork that is longer that the max reorg depth you can interpret that like if the node rejects to resolve the conflict in automatic manner, it prefers to stay on the fork it was before the conflict was discovered and lets you resolve it manually.

You still fail to understand what I wrote the first time. Which is that offline nodes see two chains which disagree, and they don't know which one was first. And they can be lied to by the nodes which claim they were online.

The only solution is to use centralized community/developer checkpoints.

You are very slow minded.

And you can be sure, in the case of such a major attack there will be a lot of forum threads, news, buzz, and it won't be difficult to detect which fork is a legit one.

That is centralization because you must trust some authority to make a decision as to which community decisions should be enacted. The Bitcoin block size debate is an example for you about community consensus not working without a dictator.

You don't have a fucking clue. And you are wasting my time.
2024  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proof that Proof of Stake is either extremely vulnerable or totally centralised on: March 04, 2016, 08:40:33 PM
It is so tiring to reply to the hordes of ignorant trolls.

I wrote upthread that one could buy and sell the coins on an exchange. They would then hold the historic private keys to attack with. This would only cost them the average spread between buy and sell prices, so they don't actually have to buy 50%.
Even monsterer doesn't claim that collecting historic priv keys is a viable attack vector. It was explained why it isn't. He claims that it's easy to collect enough priv keys for this attack in a short timeframe.

There is no way to objectively distinguish a historic key that is respent from a historic transaction that had spent that historic key. This is a double-spend with two chains arguing about which was first.

The only way to distinguish which was first is either a decentralized objectivity which is the PoW longest-chain-rule, or for PoS a centralized objectivity such as community/developer checkpoints.

Please stop wasting my time with nonsense replies.
2025  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Ethereum v. Bitcoin - parity on: March 04, 2016, 08:24:40 PM
Parity: 1 million users versus 0 users
2026  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?) on: March 04, 2016, 08:13:22 PM
Back to partitions, I've read about sharding today, the post was written by Vitalik and it describes exactly what is being implemented. It said clearly that if a call from one transaction group is made to another transaction group it would produce "out of range" exception. Its not clear to me why you even discuss the possibility of such calls that would be executed.

Review the upthread discussion of the impossibility of sharding the gas.

Why do I have to repeat myself? You claim to be a programmer of 10 years. You can't remember what you read 2 pages ago in the thread  Huh

The second thing I did I watched an interview with Vitalik where he said that in Ethereum 2.0 they are thinking about getting away from every node executing every transaction. In a paper you quoted before exactly such solution is described with double decker blockchain where one layer is used to simply store the state. This seems to be the exact solution they are going to adopt.

I will repeat again for the 10th time in this thread. Every validator must be able to validate the entire history of the lineage of transactions for the shard that validator is responsible for. Otherwise that validator can't be sure it is not going to lose its funds (i.e. electricity for PoW or deposit for the proposed consensus-by-betting) because it approved an invalid transaction due to some lie in the history as trusted but not validated. Combine this with the impossibility of sharding the gas as explained already to you. The white paper you referred to is for a crypto currency, thus there is no gas (from other shard) that must be atomic with the execution of the sharded script (as was explained to you upthread!).

need_war you need to understand that there are no problems in computer science that can't be solved.

False. Make the Halting Problem decideable.

Please don't insult my superior intelligence and experience again with your (ostensibly not even freshman level) learning curve (and the inability to remember the famous Halting problem from freshman CompSci at the university).



Back to partitions, I've read about sharding today, the post was written by Vitalik and it describes exactly what is being implemented. It said clearly that if a call from one transaction group is made to another transaction group it would produce "out of range" exception. Its not clear to me why you even discuss the possibility of such calls that would be executed.

The second thing I did I watched an interview with Vitalik where he said that in Ethereum 2.0 they are thinking about getting away from every node executing every transaction. In a paper you quoted before exactly such solution is described with double decker blockchain where one layer is used to simply store the state. This seems to be the exact solution they are going to adopt.

need_war you need to understand that there are no problems in computer science that can't be solved. If particular architecture doesn't work they will change it to the one that works. The whole thing about blockchain with all the excitement around it seems to me like we say in Russia "sucked out of finger" . But that doesn't mean that Ethereum is not gonna work and that we won't be able to make money on it. Crazy youngsters like Vitalik will develop lots of shit on Ethereum just because people have nothing better to do. No point to talk further, what I studied so far is enough for me to start pouring money in mining farm for it.

Than they need to come over the CAP theorem - could be a bit tricky. 

'Proof' is there:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.msg13490710#msg13490710

 Grin

Let's talk generalities that apply to any block chain partitioning system.

As monsterer and I discussed upthread, it is possible to partition transactions (and even scripts as "transactions") as long as the partition state is not shared between partitions. Once you need to share any state between partitions (e.g. gas), then those partitions need to validate all the history of each other, otherwise the Prisoner's Dilemma is created and the Nash equilibrium is lost.

Fuserleer claimed he had developed a more granular data structure (not precisely a block chain, although discussion revealed the difference from a block chain was semantic illusion) wherein he can isolate only those histories that are dependent and thus I presume more efficiently merge partitions by validating only the relevant history for the state that is being moved cross-partition. That is one way to go that is different than the design I am contemplating (assuming I have described his design correctly since he hasn't revealed the details). Fuserleer's design would I presume in theory allow to partition validation and only validate what you need to when you need to, but there are several issues I can expect:

  • The miner/validator may not have the financial incentive to include transactions which have a high validation burden.
  • The economic problem of validation centralizing over time remains, thus it seems the attempt to keep them decentralized by using partitioning is pointless.
  • The unbounded amount of delayed validation work has implications similar to delays seen when garbage collection locks up your browser for 5 minutes.

I had also pointed out upthread a more high-level reason that scripts can't be assumed to have isolated state due to uncontrollable externalities, but even if someone argues I am incorrect on that point, it is unarguable the gas can't be sharded (again even if we apply Fuserleer's unreleased design, it will economically centralize).
2027  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 05:42:27 PM
I received a shockingly cordial PM from stoat which I appreciate. He and I disagree about the potential of Ethereum, so agree to disagree.

Now this AnonyMint needs to try to find a way to get back to the work habits and patterns that once made him successful.

Yeah, you're both too chicken to fight.

I am itching for a fight to take out my frustations for 3 years of being chronically ill, for doing what I should have done when the gang attacked me and destroyed the vision in my right eye (I was not ruthless back then because I was only 34 years old), and as a motivation to get me to train against all odds to try to break free of this chronic illness. I am not chicken shit. I relish someone who makes me angry enough.
2028  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 04:42:38 PM
My technological statements are fact.

stoat I have challenged you to a video debate and you refuse.

I've challenged you to have Vitalik address these issues and all you do is make excuses.

I can't help it that you don't understand the technological issues thus you are incapable of distinguishing FUD from fact. If you go on video with me, I think we can make this very clear, but you are unwilling to do so.

You've turned this forum into such nonsense that I am leaving. The next you will hear from me is when I replace both Ethereum and Bitcoin with technology that works.

Edit: thanks for the apology. You earned at least my sincere statement above with your apology.

Edit#2: I challenged you to a boxing match because you stated that I look stupid and dress like a child. I challenged you to speak such insults to my face and not from behind an anonymous shield. It escalated from there. I have never threatened to attack you physically unless you accept a duel. Of course I am not going to commit battery, break the law, and end up in jail over nonsense.

Edit#3: Ethereum has really only advanced the concept of a programmable block chain, and for this I was quiet while they raised $18 million and spent it. Waiting to see if they would actually implement it and work out the intractable issues which I and others told them they were facing. I have since that time become much more knowledgable about the intractable issues they face and thus I started to raise warning flags when they ran out of funds and started pumping the stock price in order to raise more funds to waste. When I saw what they are proposing for Casper, I became more adamant that they were really lost. One of the ways to really injure our sector is to have an enormous pump that fails. Crypto currency is gaining the reputation amongst the masses and corporations as being a fraudulent wild west. I tried to interject some sober analysis, not really expecting to stop the pump because no one can stop that given the wide reach of Coindesk and other sites that are willing to promulgate hype. I see an entire lack of ethics in our sector. This isn't anything like software development business. This is like Pink Sheet commodity mining company scams. I wanted to have a technology discussion, mostly because I am refining my presentations for when I launch my own block chain work which will fix the problems. I am not realistically trying to convince the greater fools not to buy ETH.
2029  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Guys, is this why ETH is goin to the moon? on: March 04, 2016, 04:16:40 PM
There's lot's of news.
It will be big.

Rumor is they are announcing the measurement of the ratio of the circumference of Vitalik's head to his bicep. Big ratio expected.
2030  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 04:12:40 PM
So now we know stoat refuses to provide proof and thus is a low life lying scammer who has to beg for funds while lying about a friend in need.
2031  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 04:09:59 PM
You guys should date.
Drink a beer together and relax.

He wouldn't emerge from the pub with the same facial features. Sorry I will only accept to meet him if accepts a boxing duel, because the venom he has stated is unforgivable where I come from (Deep South of the USA and the Philippines).
2032  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 04:08:38 PM
So now we know stoat refuses to provide proof and thus is a low life lying scammer who has to beg for funds while lying about a friend in need.

Bit of a leap isn't it? Just because I don't want to dox my friend im therefore a scammer?

No leap at all. When you ask for donations, you have to prove you aren't scamming. That is the choice you make when you are too selfish to help your own friend. No proof and you are scamming.
2033  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 04:07:05 PM
So now we know stoat refuses to provide proof and thus is a low life lying scammer who has to beg for funds while lying about a friend in need.

.. or he made some fortune with ETH and is not willing to share ...

You mean share with his friend. Either poor as shit and has to beg for donations while lying, or he made a lot of money pumping ETH and is too selfish to take care of his friend.

Ethics isn't in stoat's vocabulary.
2034  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The altcoin topic everyone wants to sweep under the rug on: March 04, 2016, 04:01:18 PM
Lol, according to TPDB, every person on this forum should be locked up.

No. As I've pointed out in the past, the securities regulations appear to be lenient against those who were merely buy and selling illegal unregistered and/or manipulated securities. Those who are promoting are dangerously close to the line. Those who are actively manipulating are flirting with the law. Note IANAL.
2035  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:58:20 PM
So now we know stoat refuses to provide proof and thus is a low life lying scammer who has to beg for funds while lying about a friend in need.
2036  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:54:46 PM
An old school friend of mine who has a low paying job and a large family.  His need is money for mortgage payments and to put food on the table for his kids that you would no doubt enjoy the company of.

Prove it. Words are cheap. No proof and you are lying.

(note I am intentionally forcing stoat to reveal his identity because I know he doesn't want to be responsible for his posts)
2037  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:51:43 PM

0x8d1b4e41652eacec5715dc5c4833f6b713573de6 If you agree with me, please support a friend of mine in need.

Who is the friend? What is his need? Prove you are not begging for funds for yourself by pretending there is a friend in need.

Prove you haven't had sex with children m8.  Thats the reason fugitive pedophiles usually flee to the philipines right?

It is impossible to prove that which I did not do, unless there is a specific allegation which I can present evidence against. What do you expect me to provide an accounting of every hour of my life since birth. I already stated that it is impossible for me to be a fugitive because I have a valid passport.

Whereas, I asked you for a specific proof which you are refusing to comply with. Thus you've been DOXXed.



Lool. Its a friend of mine that doesnt have much money.  I don't need to prove anything to you.  I've been topping that wallet up myself because no one donates shit. You can view the transactions at etherscan.io

Who is the friend? What is his need? Prove you are not lying?
2038  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:46:44 PM

0x8d1b4e41652eacec5715dc5c4833f6b713573de6 If you agree with me, please support a friend of mine in need.

Who is the friend? What is his need? Prove you are not begging for funds for yourself by pretending there is a friend in need.

Prove you haven't had sex with children m8.  Thats the reason fugitive pedophiles usually flee to the philipines right?

It is impossible to prove that which I did not do, unless there is a specific allegation which I can present evidence against. What do you expect me to provide an accounting of every hour of my life since birth. I already stated that it is impossible for me to be a fugitive because I have a valid USA passport. I didn't flee to the Philippines. I came here as 20-something man. And yes at that time I had a lot of sex with ladies who were 18 and above. And then I got married and had kids and moved back to the USA with them.

So tell us your life story stoat?

Whereas, I asked you for a specific proof which you are refusing to comply with. Thus you've been DOXXed.

2039  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:42:56 PM
Lol, according to TPDB, every person on this forum should be locked up.

No. As I've pointed out in the past, the securities regulations appear to be lenient against those who were merely buy and selling illegal unregistered and/or manipulated securities. Those who are promoting are dangerously close to the line. Those who are actively manipulating are flirting with the law. Note IANAL.
2040  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: The Ethereum Paradox on: March 04, 2016, 03:39:50 PM

0x8d1b4e41652eacec5715dc5c4833f6b713573de6 If you agree with me, please support a friend of mine in need.

Who is the friend? What is his need? Prove you are not begging for funds for yourself by pretending there is a friend in need.
Pages: « 1 ... 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 [102] 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 ... 391 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!