Ohh Found some good stuff here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/creditcard-surcharges-lawsuit-idUSL1N0HT18B20131003"Even beyond the informational content of surcharges, sellers' inability to effectively inform consumers of the true costs of credit has the effect of artificially subsidizing credit at the expense of cash, increasing overall credit-card usage and consumer debt," "The card industry wants to perpetuate the myth that using a credit card is free, or priceless. But the cost is baked into the price of all the goods and services we buy." argued that the state law protected shoppers by enabling them to rely on advertised prices, rather than be surprised at checkout with surcharges. tl;dr blah blah blah creditcards companies should get tons of $$$ because we're afraid that dumb people can't grasp the concept of paying 3% more if they want to pay with their credit card Most consumers prefer to use CC because of cash back incentives and an easy way to itemize their spending record. By surcharging it'll just irritate the majority of consumers. Seems like only the small shops care about this. The big shops like Target rather just have one price Ok i can buy the argument that Creditcards are more convenient than cash, and creditcard companies are willing to provide that convenience for a certain fee of course. And they hate for you to know that you're actually paying a 2-3% fee, instead why not give you a 0.5%bonus points and make you feel smart like you're actually making money while at the same time lobby to pass the law that prohibits merchants to directly pass that fee to you and instead just cost average their fees on people who don't even use that "convenience" |
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Ohh Found some good stuff here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/creditcard-surcharges-lawsuit-idUSL1N0HT18B20131003"Even beyond the informational content of surcharges, sellers' inability to effectively inform consumers of the true costs of credit has the effect of artificially subsidizing credit at the expense of cash, increasing overall credit-card usage and consumer debt," "The card industry wants to perpetuate the myth that using a credit card is free, or priceless. But the cost is baked into the price of all the goods and services we buy." argued that the state law protected shoppers by enabling them to rely on advertised prices, rather than be surprised at checkout with surcharges. tl;dr blah blah blah creditcards companies should get tons of $$$ because we're afraid that dumb people can't grasp the concept of paying 3% more if they want to pay with their credit card |
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Bottom lineis if i pay you $100 in BTC you'll get $99.99 worth of BTC. If i pay you $100 via credit card you'll get about $97 and it'll come with additional risk of chargeback if i decide to dispute that transaction as a bonus
why $0.01 less? I suppose you will pay the miner's fee.  normally buyers pay it. So merchants pays nothing unless they want to convert to fiat. Errr ok if $100 leaves my wallet $0.01 will go to miners and $99.99 to receiver, or to put it another way if i want merchant to receive $100 it'll cost me $103 with credit card or $100.01 in BTC. Ok ok BitThink 103.09278350514 in CC geeze  |
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Bottom lineis if i pay you $100 in BTC you'll get $99.99 worth of BTC. If i pay you $100 via credit card you'll get about $97 and it'll come with additional risk of chargeback if i decide to dispute that transaction as a bonus
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... Yes merchants pay a cc fee. But any proof they pass this onto consumer? I think they just eat it in their margin. I know my business did
... If you pay a merchant directly with Bitcoin the transaction fee goes to miner. So who pays for that? If the merchant pays for it what incentive do they have over CC? The whole argument that merchant have incentive to choose Bitcoin over CC and pass the savings to consumer has no legs First that bolded statement is misunderstanding of the basic business principals. Second of all, the chart that you quoted shows the cost of the transaction ON the whole network, and not on parties doing the transaction they couldn't care less about mining rewards their cost is only a cent or so. As far as miners, this is more of a build in mechanism to fairly distribute bitcoins. I guess you can say that people who hold bitcoins ultimately pay that "fee" by having their bitcoins diluted sort of like inflation, which will halve in 2016 and keep getting reduced to nothing once all coins are mined |
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 For reference |
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Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.
But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry. Citation please? People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay. Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees. Yes merchants pay a cc fee. But any proof they pass this onto consumer? I think they just eat it in their margin. I know my business did The intermediary bank and association pays for it. But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification and physical swipe of transaction them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants. Thank you. I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus. Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9. A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transactionWhat does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer. "Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions." Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter The only reason the cost went down is because the price went down. When price is was higher it was way more expensive than CC. Somebody has to pay for that. It's not low cost as many claim Huh what are you talking about? Do explain why i as a consumer or a merchants care how much miners are getting? |
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IN a perfect world, retailers hate credit cards as they lose some profit from the sale.
But in reality and mostly in practice they are willing to give up this small percentage and surcharge as credit cards enable easier funds transfer than cash for many customers.
The result of this may be an increase of sale of 200-1000% for the retailer. So in the end they make more sales to make up for the smaller profit.
The worst example is gas stations which may only make 5-8 cents per gallon of gas, and may lose money when the price of gas is expensive because of the credit card surcharges. But in fact they dont make much from gas sales they make most of their money from the sales inside the market and convenience store. Like cigarettes, candy, soda, chips. The gas is to lure them to the shop.
Sure can't argue with that, but why should it be cost averaged between all payment methods when i pay cash? Apply a convenience fee on the purchasers with credit card. Oops "credit card surcharges are prohibited in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/that-credit-card-convenie_b_4956839.html but they can give discounts on non credit card transactions. And you can't use cash over the internet oh wait... |
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Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.
But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry. Citation please? People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS I assume the merchants are subsidising that in the fees they pay. Mainly is the " interchange fee" the Visa and MC and AMex, Disc pays to the middle merchant banks to promote their cards,which includes interest 2-3% and per transaction fees. Yes merchants pay a cc fee. But any proof they pass this onto consumer? I think they just eat it in their margin. I know my business did The intermediary bank and association pays for it. But the "interchange" association will reimburse some of the loss to the final merchant if they used rules like i.d. verification and physical swipe of transaction them from the buyer, online sales are much higher risk than physical location, therefore the higher interest and swipe charges for online merchants. Thank you. I also think the claim that bitcoin is cheaper than CC is bogus. Cost per transaction is all time low and it's still around $8-9. A year ago it was almost $80 per transaction https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transactionWhat does this "cost per transaction" mean? The price of 0.0001 BTC? The Btcpay or coinbase fee? I think maybe mining cost / transaction count? Then it has nothing to do with the merchants or customer. "Cost per Transaction A chart showing miners revenue divided by the number of transactions." Build in process to distribute decentralized currency taken as a transaction cost, i guess when someone is on the mission to disproof something facts don't matter |
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Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.
But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry. Citation please? People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS Trolling? In US gas stations in some states list prices in cash and credit card. Credit card fraud costs millions each year, doesn't take a genius to realize that someone is paying for that, guess who that someone is  Wow Only one example without citation. They don't do that in my state or any states from NY to VA. By your idiotic logic, I can claim that merchants are passing all their costs to the consumer including rents and payroll insurance, etc.. Try broadening your horizons and getting at least out of your state for starters. Yes they do that's basic business. Covering from their margins lol and where do those margins come from? Ok ok have it your way credit cards cover fraud from their margins, which they get by charging the retailer, who pays it from their margins which they get by charging customers. That's why retailers charge higher fee for credit card use (err give discount when you DON'T use CC) where allowed heres one of the first google results http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/business/merchants-consider-credit-card-surcharges-or-cash-discounts.html?_r=0 i didn't really read the whole thing don't have time to entertain every troll |
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Most credit cards and banks cover for unauthorized losses, which BTC does not have this insurance.
But they pass this cost of fraud onto the consumer, effectively raising the price of everything you buy. BTC insurance could become a fairly large industry. Citation please? People here say that a lot but I've never seen any proof that fraud is a line in COGS Trolling? In US gas stations in some states list prices in cash and credit card. Credit card fraud costs millions each year, doesn't take a genius to realize that someone is paying for that, guess who that someone is |
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Trolls aren't trying. People are actually trying to explain why buying drugs with CC is a bad idea |
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So forums shouldn't integrated tipping because of liability, and that liability shouldn't be outsourced to a third party because they won't do it for free? Now on to teaching Grannies and Grandpas on how to copy/paste addresses into their wallet software to send someone 50cents  |
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And BTC2k till 200 on Finex  |
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So, finally Friday went down and we have nothing so far... It seems it was all a myth that's exposed now...
I can't even trust a random troll on twitter! What is the world coming to? |
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STFU and fill my bids.  Yeah that sums it up |
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If you are here, I would assume you are into bitcoin and learning how to use it. put your receiving address in your sig, at least have one on your profile page. Anyone with btc can send you some love directly from their wallet. Things like changetip are for n00bs and people who have no knowledge of how bitcoin works and is really meant for platforms where you don't know who will come across your content. Its made to facilitate and introduce btc. Is redundant here.
So you're saying tipping should just be exploited to introduce new users but is not actually useful as a service? If so i'll have to disagree. As having alternatives in place yes i agree, i can look it up in profile, i can also ask you for your address in PM, and instead of this forum we can write letters to each other... Would i ever do it probably not, would i click a button for insightful analysis and a good post, probably. All arguments so far seem to fall into: 1-You already have a way to do it so why simplify make it user friendly. 2-Cons outweigh the pros (spam beggers etc...) Which both i disagree with. Would love to see BTC as a standard tipping feature on all forums (sort of like saying Thanks for a post on some platforms). Sure some platforms might benefit more than others (thinking of stackexchange etc...) but still |
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Of cause, anything changed in recent days? nothing, the world is still always not interested in bitcoin,
Exchanges hacked,lost coins,bad pr,10% inflation,etc still happen and getting worse,
So you tell me, why should the price magically goes up while the reasons of the crash remain and getting worse? just because bulltards dream for it?
This question is being asked though all these 10900 pages of the thread. And no has an argument to answer it. Ever. You can't argue with opinion, >anything changed in recent days? nothing I see a million coins being swaped in a day. >world is still always not interested in bitcoin I see some pretty rich folk talking about it, maybe they're onto something  >why should the price magically goes up Why should it magically goes down? Exactly, fundamentals are still strong. It's in proof of concept stage every day it functions it gets stronger. |
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Thanks also. Is there an actual thread where there is serious talk about trading this crazy market. This thread is great for entertainment only. Try troll box on btc-e.com i kid i kid |
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