I don't believe i heard a single serious argument how bigger blocks help decentralization, best case you get is that the benefit outweighs the increase of centralization.
Bigger blocks will decrease potential transaction congestion, enabling a faster user base growth. A bigger user base with more use cases will create a bigger and stronger network, attract more businesses and lead to faster innovation, which will increase bitcoin valuation. This in itself, besides more mining fees from additional transactions, will attract new mining farms. Furthermore; any new mining farms outside of China will not be in a disadvantage because of bigger blocks and the Great Chinese Firewall, since miners can always opt to mine smaller blocks. They will only loose out on some of the additional transaction fees as revenue, but these will be the smaller fees anyway. So yes, bigger blocks, faster network growth, stronger network, more businesses, more use cases, faster innovation, better competitive position against other blockchains, and more farms including farms outside of China, hence more decentralization. In the end it should be the market to dictate where to put a mining farm based on characteristics such as energy prices and optimal block size, and not a coding restriction. A lot of assumptions there, where pretty much ever point can be argued (and has been to death). Like current block size = slowing user base growth. It's all just speculation. How will they not be at disadvantage if new 248MB block will propagate in X seconds in China but X+Y outside? And you lost me on how "bigger blocks...more farms including farms outside of China" then you say "market to dictate where to put a mining farm based on characteristics such as energy prices" So if energy prices are the cheapest in north korea, china, sudan, or russia (due to government subsidies) let all the mining concentrate there? Don't think you'll get a lot of support on this one. Beauty of BTC is that it doesn't care about the vocal minority blowing up forums and reddit on how the world is falling. Most of these are speculators concerned with short term price appreciation on their magical internet money. And they might actually be right, and centralization will be marginal and price will go to da moon, if we put 8MB block in, but even a 10% risk of things blowing up is not acceptable. A basic business vs engineering decision. |
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.... segwit will incress node cost and have the EXACT same "centralizing" effect as a 2MB HF.
segwit's "2MB effective block size".... idk why they didnt just call it segwit's "Magical capacity incress."
lol wake up poeple you've been lied to and manipulated.
True, but segwit enables LN and other off chain solutions that bump all micro payments one layer up. Where 2MB HF just buys short period of time until people start bitching about 4MB HF, then 8MB... how big should the blocks be to match PayPal? Visa? poeple can bitch for GB blocks all day long, miners have orphen risk to worry about they can't won't make blocks that the network can't quickly digest. the TX malleability fix required to allow LN to work properly is another magical piece of code only segwit can deliver....  Meh, let's give them a big red button and hope they don't press it, cause it would negatively effect them as well, just doesn't give that warm fuzzy feeling for a multi billion dollar currency. So you're suggesting just a fork for TX malleability fix? Why does the rest of segwit code bother you so much? Because of HF? Seems like a separate argument from the big blocks |
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.... segwit will incress node cost and have the EXACT same "centralizing" effect as a 2MB HF.
segwit's "2MB effective block size".... idk why they didnt just call it segwit's "Magical capacity incress."
lol wake up poeple you've been lied to and manipulated.
True, but segwit enables LN and other off chain solutions that bump all micro payments one layer up. Where 2MB HF just buys short period of time until people start bitching about 4MB HF, then 8MB... how big should the blocks be to match PayPal? Visa? The potential of on-chain scaling is not restricted to the block size, but keeping limited in discussion politically. Again, the only relevant limit is the 21Mio! Not sure what you mean  But assuming O(n) or leaner scaling, if with 1MB we can handle 7tps, then we'll need 16MB blocks to handle 115tps (PayPal 2014), and 285MB blocks to handle 2000tps (Visa) thats where i loose majority of big blockers  |
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.... segwit will incress node cost and have the EXACT same "centralizing" effect as a 2MB HF.
segwit's "2MB effective block size".... idk why they didnt just call it segwit's "Magical capacity incress."
lol wake up poeple you've been lied to and manipulated.
True, but segwit enables LN and other off chain solutions that bump all micro payments one layer up. Where 2MB HF just buys short period of time until people start bitching about 4MB HF, then 8MB... how big should the blocks be to match PayPal? Visa? |
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Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?
You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun. This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep. Really. And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike." Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward). Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: ?? Step3: Profit  Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere How do you think strikes work? Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time." Step3: Profit You're delusional or trolling if you think this will work. Let's try to be civil. I'm not gonna call you a faggot and you're not going to call me delusional or a troll. Shall we give that a try and see how it goes? I'm speculation that majority of miners are also hodler, what will that do to the price of BTC and their investment?
What makes you think that most miners are hodlers? Do you think the guy who works at the gas station is also a gasoline aficionado, and spends his paychecks on 55-gal drums of Premium? Good luck trying to find idiots to sign up to that. Here's a shovel start digging your own graves for the greater good  Remember what I said about acting civil? There's a pretty huge gap between calling someone "delusional or trolling" and a faggot. No, it isn't. Both are meaningless, empty verbiage meant to insult and belittle the person you're talking to. Both carry no information, both are childish and rude. Drawing a parallel between miners and a guy working at the gas station is a pretty dumb weak argument borderline trolling. If you weren't trolling, a more appropriate comparison would be between a miner and an oil drilling company, and arguing how the later doesn't hold any inventory? Or has a trade desk that speculates on oil price Do you think oil drilling companies own oil? Do they store it in their wine Oil Cellars too? In 55-gal drums, and the best in Mason jars, labeled "Sweet Crude"? We live in different worlds. But yeah keep pushing the idea of miners shooting themselves in a foot
Again: Stop trying to provoke me and start reading. I'm not a Miner's advocate. I'm not a big blocker, I'm simply trying to play things through. Now what's the point of turning neutral bystanders into enemies? Why do it? But back on topic: tell me how a mining equivalent of a walkout would hurt them? Or do you think workers who strike never get what they want? For one, BTC is still an experiment, mining has been getting more and more competitive, profit margins are getting thinner. Miners are heavily invested in BTC and their survival depends on the BTC price, to a point where if BTC goes down say 10% they may never see a return on their investment. We've already seen few mining operators closing their doors because of thin margins. Now, one of the worst things for any market is uncertainty. So since their survival depends on BTC price, contributing any uncertainty to the market would be suicidal for them. They're well aware of this this is exactly why they're staying quiet and trying not to breath to hard for a fear of effecting anything. Another aspect of this, is the main reason why we (small blockers?) are against bigger blocks. We feel that centralization is bitcoin's Achilles' Heel and is the #1 cause what might bring BTC down. As such it must be protected at all costs. Right now what is/(should) keep a bunch of devs awake at night is the centralization of miners in China. (Who would've thought that bitcoiners are a paranoid bunch?). Thus any proposed change must above all answer whether it helps security/(decentralization), if not it goes on a risk/benefit analysis and again being a paranoid bunch we tend to err on a side of caution. I don't believe i heard a single serious argument how bigger blocks help decentralization, best case you get is that the benefit outweighs the increase of centralization. With that said, now imagine what would happen to the price when a group that we foresee as the biggest threat to BTC comes out and tries to force a hostile fork that would cause further centralization around them?? I for one say they can keep their inefficient paypal tokens and stick to less centralized chain or switch to alt. tl;dr decentralization is THE REASON why people trust $10B in BTC. Best case for an entity that tries a hostile fork that gives them more centralization might end up being their worst case as they end up with a bunch of worthless ledger entries. |
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think we're due for a matching uptick to maybe 70, before going below 60?
idk probably not... you've forced me to remember just how discontent i am with the direction core has forced upon us, and how i do believe it will ultimately kill bitcoin by ensuring minning can never be sustainable long term. ... suddenly i feel depressed, i'm going to bed. One day it'll become clear, and you'll be thankful that core has some sane people that resisted the pressure to bend over backwards to Chinese miners  |
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Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?
You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun. This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep. Really. And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike." Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward). Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: ?? Step3: Profit Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere How do you think strikes work? Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time." Step3: Profit You're delusional or trolling if you think this will work. Let's try to be civil. I'm not gonna call you a faggot and you're not going to call me delusional or a troll. Shall we give that a try and see how it goes? I'm speculation that majority of miners are also hodler, what will that do to the price of BTC and their investment?
What makes you think that most miners are hodlers? Do you think the guy who works at the gas station is also a gasoline aficionado, and spends his paychecks on 55-gal drums of Premium? Good luck trying to find idiots to sign up to that. Here's a shovel start digging your own graves for the greater good Remember what I said about acting civil? There's a pretty huge gap between calling someone "delusional or trolling" and a faggot. Drawing a parallel between miners and a guy working at the gas station is a pretty dumb weak argument borderline trolling. If you weren't trolling, a more appropriate comparison would be between a miner and an oil drilling company, and arguing how the later doesn't hold any inventory? Or has a trade desk that speculates on oil price But yeah keep pushing the idea of miners shooting themselves in a foot |
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Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?
You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun. This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep. Really. And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike." Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward). Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: ?? Step3: Profit Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere How do you think strikes work? Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: "Your coin isn't worth dick until you let us have what we want. While we're on strike, we're making only 4% less than when we're working for you. Think about it. Take your time." Step3: Profit You're delusional or trolling if you think this will work. I'm speculation that majority of miners are also hodler, what will that do to the price of BTC and their investment? Good luck trying to find idiots to sign up to that. Here's a shovel start digging your own graves for the greater good |
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Don't we have a not-so-top secret algo change from hell in case of emergencies?
You can start mining a worthless alt with a new algo. Have fun. This is no different than a typical business/labor dispute, the sort that happens when bosses make promises they don't keep. Really. And the slimmer the miner's (it's, like, 9 pool operators, who are we kidding?) current margin is, the more incentive they have to "Unionize" and "strike." Only when IRL workers strike, they don't get to draw 96% of their paycheck, as the miners will (because block reward). Step1: Grind BTC to a complete stop Step2: ?? Step3: Profit Think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere |
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The miners get their block reward (12.5 BTC) whether they include transactions or not. Transactions are a pretty insignificant percentage on top of that (bouncing between .3 and .5 BTC, here: https://www.smartbit.com.au/charts/transaction-fees-per-block). If the miners come to an agreement among themselves not to include any transactions, the impact on their bottom line would be pretty small (12.5 BTC per block solved, vs. 12.9 BTC). But the bargaining power that gives them... Yeah they're so profitable especially now, what's another 4% cut from their profit margins and another 25%+ cut due to price tanking because of this retardedness |
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What do miners have to do with how much buyers are willing to pay per btc again? |
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The thing is this. At the moment, we've got speculative traffic in both directions. Fundamental traffic in none. After the halving: Speculative traffic on one direction and fundamental traffic in one. ...since we have 1 known direction (the fundamental), the worst that can happen is the speculative traffic cancels it and we go horizontal. On the other hand if the speculative trading follows the fundamentals, well....  Problem being is that currently there are $40MM in longs that went full retard and paying $24k/day in fees, and i don't think they're expecting to go horizontal. Luckily shorts are starting to creep up so that might help canceling it out |
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IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD! If you want to have any gains from bitcoin or avoid further losses, then you should sell all your bitcoins now. We are in a clearly confirmed long term downtrend toward historical analysis lows based on all confirmed forum data and databases confirmed by all government sources. These are just the facts.
No way, is proudhon saying that ... bitcoin ... is ... dead?? NO WAY!!! Yes it's been confirmed! |
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Halving being priced out.
I wonder what effect "actual halving" will have (as opposed to speculative halving).
Come back in 2 months, considering the state of current economy most likely creeping up after we settle this mess of speculations |
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We go down and longs go over $42MM someone doubling down big time, the one positive is shorts smelling the blood and are up BTC5k which should offset and bring some volume
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LOL I'm gonna laugh so hard when the price gradually goes down after halving.
People think it's just gonna shoot up on halving day lmao
Why would it gradually go down when the reduced supply of coins restricts the miners to only dumping half the coins they could beforehand? Most posts here expect a gradual increase in the price, not a huge price spike on halving day. Good thing major players don't understand how this price rise is a sure thing. More cheap coins for us! It's all about expectations. If market over estimated the effects of the halving, people borrowed say $10MM to leverage long and pay $5k a day, expecting BTC to go to da moon on the halvening day. Then halvening comes, and the price is stable (or worse some short decided to dump and it goes down) now you're disappointed and have to cover your long, by selling $10MM in BTC which squeezes other leveraged longs. It shouldn't be gradual though but rather sudden, and then the bigger market forces come in play and if true demand goes up (or even stays constant) BTC will gradually crawl up |
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Jezus people, learn to spot a troll. The only question is whether Bulgarian is Lambie again or not. My money is on yes.
 Haha that was actually funny. Wondering if people engaging NLC are really that dumb or just clones/NLC talking to him/herself prostitutka Nika me English no good yeah? |
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Most buying is done off exchanges and OTC. By a wide margin too.
I always suspected this. I'm curious if you have any figures or links related to this fact. P.S. Welcome back. You need to take that notion with a grain of salt. Because... it might be less likely to see that happening in the West, and more likely happening in the East. That "off exchanges" notion is mostly related to the mentality of nations and cultures. And basically in Ukrain / China / Russia / Mongolia / India .. it would be more likely to see "hand to hand" = "black market" transactions going on. All this compared to the West, where people would be more scared and paranoid of doing this sort of transactions. Also... in the East, people tend to not do business with strangers! Usually they need to be family, they need to live in the city, you need to know where they live, you need to consolidate the trust. Because I'm from the East(even if I live in Central Europe)... and I can tell you as a weird notion out there... I live in a small city of 50.000 people and I know where everyone lives, what part of the city if I don't know their exact address or who they are related with, and especially if I want to make transactions with them! And I would expect to be invited in their home or something like that if they want me to sell me something (like bitcoins), and in rest... everyone knows everyone! And you don't do business without knowing someone. No strangers allowed! Off exchange transactions is neither an east or west phenomenon, but merely a prudent practice for someone who is able to establish such connections. If prices can be driven down on exchanges with 10k coins, and those same 10k coins can be bought back at a lower price off the exchanges, without moving the price back up, then conducting off chain transactions makes sense for those individuals with a large number of coins whether they are in the east, west, weast or in the snourth.  The logic seems reasonable, but it'd still prefer to see some facts. You would have to do it across all exchanges simultaneously. Split BTC10k only puts like BTC2k on each major exchange and then market sell? How much slippage will that get you? What will you do with all those yuans after that? What are the chances that another whale gets you and market actually moves against you? Now you sold your coins for cheap and got to buy them back at higher rate OTC? I'm sure it does happen, but would probably take more than BTC10k What's most likely is someone cornering the Chinese miners, wouldn't be surprised if one broker contracted them all, and all mined coins have been already presold with futures. Luckily that funny business would be cut in half in about 10days |
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A few thing people here don't seem to understand:
Most buying is done off exchanges and OTC. By a wide margin too.
China is not leading this market.
No fee Chinese exchanges are being used to "control" the market, because bots are linked and people think China is leading the market.
...
The rise to nearly 800 was one entity
...
If you figured this much out, then you probably also figured out that the one entity is not done yet either. If one entity managed to corner BTC already, we have bigger issues |
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Amazing how price can stay relatively stable when volume doubles |
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