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2501  Economy / Speculation / Re: Totally confused with swaps. on: October 28, 2014, 02:08:40 AM
Ok,  I made an offer at bitfinex:  100 BTC 0.2% 30 days  , i am curious


What does Non-Compounded and Compounded mean at http://bfxdata.com/calculators/swaps.php ?


If your offer is taken and held for full 24hrs, you should get 0.2BTC. Now you can either withdraw that BTC (non-compound) or let it ride and loan it out again, so next day you're lending 100.2BTC and now should get 0.2004 on the second day, that's where compounding comes in
2502  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 11:45:19 AM
22.2 mil vs 17 k

longs going up nicely too.



apples to oranges? USD to BTC

$22.2MM longs vs $6.2M shorts gives a better picture. But we got almost BTC10k new longs opened in the last two days that's like 120% growth (although i don't think i saw all of those borrowed funds hit the market yet! Undecided) so ATH short with 120% growth in two days while market is moving against them VS a typical long volume with maybe 10% rise over the same 2 days period ...
2503  Economy / Speculation / Re: Totally confused with swaps. on: October 27, 2014, 11:26:36 AM
If BTC swaps are high right now does that mean bitcoin is likely to rise in price, or the opposite?

Well, currently there are:
22,193,192.53 USD swaps
17,599.02 BTC swaps (or about $6.1MM at current price)

Say you have $333 and very confident that the current price $1000/btc  Grin  will go up. If you buy 0.333BTC and the price goes up 10% to $1100 next day, and you sell you'd have $366 ($333+$33 ) Yay but that's not good enough for you and instead you decide to leverage long. That is, you come to RyNinDaCleM and say you want to buy a full 1BTC.  RyNinDaCleM, being a loan shark that s/he is, agrees but on the following terms s/he will buy and hold it for you, s/he wants to be paid 1% per day and asks for Initial Margin 3:1 (33%) and warns that Maintenance Margin is 15%. Blah blah STFU you agree and hand him $333 (33% from $1000 as Initial Margin) he puts in $666 of his own money and buys full 1BTC and says he'll keep it for safekeeping you go Whateve's. Now you prop your eyes open with tooth picks and glue yourself to a monitor looking at BTC price charts expecting it to go up. You've entered a leveraged long position.
Outcomes:
A-Day later, price goes up 10% cool!! You ecstatically run to RyNinDaCleM's place tell him to sell that 1BTC and give you your money. He hands you $427.34 ($1100 - $666money he put in - $6.66 his 1%swap interest for day). You come back home and find your girlfriend with another model looking chick having a pillow fight naked on your bed. Cool much better than $366 eh?

B-Day later market moves against you $100 so btc is at $900 now. You kick the cat, lock the dog outside, but hang in there after all you got mad trader skillz and confident that the price MUST go up so must be just a glitch in the matrix. Next day market moves against you again and BTC is at $800 now. You call up your girlfriend and say that she needs to loose few kilos/pounds, call up your mom and say you always hated her cooking. But stick with your btc. After all BTC always rebounds, right? It always does. RIGHT!?! Day three, you wake up and find puke all over your keyboard, empty bottle of vodka and a really fat "thing" passed out in your bed. You really hope it's a chick but can't tell and too afraid to check as to not wake her/him up. You check BTC and it's trading at $700. Damn must be that full moon oh well BTC is only down 30%. You look at the chart and conclude that the pterodactyl's nose points to a trend reversal tomorrow. But phone rings and it's RyNinDaCleM saying it's a margin call and he just sold your BTC and come pick your $14.02 up . WTF thought we were cool bro? Phone ring wakes up the fat dude that was passed out on your bed, he give you a compliment on you pretty mouth while he pukes all over your bed/carpet.  Angry WTF just happened!?!

Well, your equity (your money) started off at $333. 15% Maintenance Margin at price of $1000 is $150 so you're well over that with your $333
-Day one btc is at $900. Your equity is at $227.34 ($900-$666RyNinDaCleM share-$6.66one day 1% swap interest), 15% Maintenance Margin means that you need to be at least at $135 (900*15%). $227.34 > $135 so you're good.
-Day two btc is at $800. Your equity is at $120.68 ($800-$666RyNinDaCleM share-$13.32two day 1% swap interest), 15% Maintenance Margin means that you need to be at least at $120 (800*15%). $120.68 > $120 barely made it.
-Day three btc is at $700. Your equity is at $14.02 ($700-$666RyNinDaCleM share-$19.98three day 1% swap interest), 15% Maintenance Margin means that you need to be at least at $105 (700*15%). But $14.02 < $105 MARGIN CALL!

Shorts are the other way around where you borrow BTC and sell it right away for $ in hopes that it'll go down so you can repurchase it later at a lower price. Don't have time to write up an example for that today  Smiley

TL;DR lots of USD swaps (longs) means a lot of people holding BTC with borrowed money in hopes that BTC will go up so they can sell and pay back the $$$. But they're paying interest daily, and if market goes down too much they might have to sell their BTC before loosing everything, or if it goes down too much the BTC might be sold automatically by exchange in a margin call. Which might cause a domino effect. Price falls, person 1 gets margin called and his coins are sold on the market, causing the price to drop even more, now person 2 gets margin called and now his coins are market sold driving the price even further down now person 3 is in trouble etc...

BTC swaps  (shorts) are the other way around, people borrowed coins, sell right away and sit on fiat. Eventually they have to buy the coins to give them back (close their short). They obviously hope to rebuy at a lower price. You borrowed a coin from me at $1000, price goes up to $5000 but i don't care and want my coin back, so you're forced to buy at the market price. Forcing price up, and possible margin call on other shorts driving the price even higher...
2504  Economy / Speculation / Re: This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well on: October 27, 2014, 08:13:51 AM
Pretty sure this is manipulation. Someone is taking all the btc swap offers but not actually shorting.

So new shorters are not able to open new short positions. Ups. Do i smell direction north?


i explained this above


lets put some logic to the table and to provide proof why hampering the free market by placing arbitrary rules is bad

for some reason BFX have a 1% cap or soft cap at 1% interest per day in a squeeze scenario the price move is much more above (FRR and all that )


1% at current price is 3,52usd this is the maximum interest to pay for 1 day/btc , in a squeeze scenario does the price more above 3,52 USD/24h ? hell yea
so it can be quite profitable so borrow BTC if you are in a long long position just to make the loans BTC loans more expensive

also in a long squeeze scenario it can be quite profitable to borrow USD if you are in a short position just to make USD loans more expensive


Unless he's just accumulating to dump all at once and squeeze longs?
2505  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 07:53:21 AM
Meanwhile, the total amount of BTC swaps (read: shorts) at Bitfinex has reached a historic high of 16.2k BTC.

17,254


and growing.

Guess something big going to happens

Just thinking... how will all that shorts close their positions? I see only two options: short or long squeeze.

Could this be some form of manipulation? Maybe they are already covered?

Annnd we're at 18k shorts with no volume on BFX someone is doing something funny
Ding ding ding! Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Place your bids low cause someone is about to unleash a huge dump on bfx?  Huh
2506  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 07:48:46 AM
Meanwhile, the total amount of BTC swaps (read: shorts) at Bitfinex has reached a historic high of 16.2k BTC.

17,254


and growing.

Guess something big going to happens

Just thinking... how will all that shorts close their positions? I see only two options: short or long squeeze.

Could this be some form of manipulation? Maybe they are already covered?

Annnd we're at 18k shorts with no volume on BFX someone is doing something funny
2507  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 06:36:52 AM
Meanwhile, the total amount of BTC swaps (read: shorts) at Bitfinex has reached a historic high of 16.2k BTC.

17,254


and growing.

Guess something big going to happens

Hmmm but i don't see the corresponding volume on BFX! As if they're borrowing but not opening short positions? Or possibly just accumulating to dump all at once? Shocked
2508  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 05:53:39 AM
Shorts are doubling down about 9k coins shorted in 2days  Shocked while longs are only up about 1MM
2509  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 02:54:17 AM
...what bothers me is weak ask walls, which might cause so called "to the moon"...

Hope you can sleep at night with these kind of thought Grin
2510  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 02:33:29 AM
Sales != profit.

And again you're whole argument seems to be that they're so profitable they can do whatever they want. Even if that the case in one instance, clearly that's not sustainable on a long term scale

Not one instance, most instance.

Tell me exactly how it is not substainable? I should add that most of these companies are now setting up cloud mining services and selling mining contracts at what are most certainly extremely high profit margins.

What is not substainable is this persistent bear market in the face of continuing innovation and development in Bitcoin's infrastructure.

When the price starts shooting up again, these companies will be even less enticed to sell any Bitcoin.

It seems to me you have little to no argument and keep moving the goal posts. I, on the other hand, have brought forward numerous arguments and factual reports to indicate that miners are not all dumping to fiat the BTC they mine.





In one word competition. If it's so profitable what's stopping 100 new asian manufacturer coming online tomorrow at the fraction of the cost and driving hashrate through the roof squeezing those profits? What about Intel entering the market? It's always a risk/reward game you won't see crazy profits for too long, but when you do and first to the game you reinvest to try as grab as big of the pie early on, not hodle because you get way too much money from other business.

So they're not dumping now, and even less likely to dump when market goes up. Perpetual hodlers?? Great business plan with no exit strategy, but even if that's the case and 1% ASIC manufacturers horde up all new coins there's the risk of the other 99% revolting and hard forking you out of the game.
2511  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 01:57:41 AM
Bottom line is money has to come from somewhere to cover costs and generate fiat profit. And your argument that they'd rather indefinitely raise capital from VCs to cover their costs rather than sell their own inventory is conceptually flawed. Simple as that.

 Cheesy

You are one stubborn fellow

I know people on this forum tend to be very selective in their reading but did you not read the part where they have made/are making millions selling mining gear or did you conveniently ignore it?

On GAWMiners :
Quote
The company was an overnight success and achieved over $10M in sales during its first month and is on schedule to do $100M in this first year.

KNC :
Quote
Since KnC started in June last year, it has sold bitcoin mining computers worth $75 million.

I can't pull up any numbers for BitFury but my guess is it is more than both these two.



Sales != profit.

And again you're whole argument seems to be that they're so profitable they can do whatever they want. Even if that the case in one instance, clearly that's not sustainable on a long term scale
2512  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 01:31:21 AM
Again the fact that this one time event was so against the norm that it made the news should hint on how the normal course of business goes. Would BitFury selling their inventory to fund new farm made the news??? Think that be considered the normal course of business

 Huh

That was no event. This quote made the news because it was a comment made after the announcement of yet another round of VC funding.

Here's another one from Josh Garza from GAWMiners at Hashers United conference :

Quote
Garza voiced the least concern regarding the price, saying that ultimately, the value of bitcoin is underpinned not so much by the consumers and merchants who use and accept digital currency but by the miners who facilitate the whole network.

“Miners believe in the currency the most,” he said.

More from this conference :

Quote
Terpin polled the crowd by asking how many sell a certain percentage of their bitcoins for fiat currencies like the dollar. One only miner raised their hand when Terpin asked if they sold 100% of their bitcoin for dollars, and about one-third of the crowd indicated that they don’t sell any of their generated bitcoins.

Again, I'm not saying all of the miners keep 100% of their coins but it is naive to believe the majority of them dump their Bitcoins for fiat

Bottom line is money has to come from somewhere to cover costs and generate fiat profit. And your argument that they'd rather indefinitely raise capital from VCs to cover their costs rather than sell their own inventory is conceptually flawed. Simple as that.
2513  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 01:15:34 AM
I've already tried to make this same point multiple times in this thread, but it just seems to make the naysayers more stubborn. These mega-mining farms are working to devour their competition while raking in the dough. They're not delusional hodlers who are betting on BTC going to the moon in 10 years or whatever. There's profits to be taken right now, and these people are ready to milk this cash cow dry.


Yeah i'm yet to hear a valid counter point to this. Although i don't see them as evil, just part of the ecosystem/capitalism. Hope the halving and a risk of a hard fork if they get out of control would keep them in check.

Not really a counter, just this: It's possible that nobody who is starting mining now breaks even, even with cheap or stolen electricity. (If you'll assume a constant btc price, free electricity and >2% periodic difficulty increase for instance no consumer miner makes money ever)
In that sense Bitcoin mining is a gamble in it's own and so larger mining farms aren't necessarily more risk-aware.

I think we'll see a few weeks where mining costs more in electricity alone some time in the coming months like we did in 2011.

 not sure how many time "significantly below $400" per unit can be quoted here. If they're profitable why can't other ASIC manufacturers be?
2514  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 01:12:56 AM
Yeah i'm yet to hear a valid counter point to this. Although i don't see them as evil, just part of the ecosystem/capitalism. Hope the halving and a risk of a hard fork if they get out of control would keep them in check.

Quote
BitFury founder and CEO Valery Vavilov indicated that the new funding will allow the company to complete production of its 28nm ASIC chip without selling the reserve bitcoins it has mined from its three industrial-scale data centres.

Quote
Vavilov told CoinDesk that it decided not to tap its bitcoin reserves as it remains bullish on the long-term value of bitcoin.

"We believe in the long-term perspective [the price of bitcoin] will grow and we decided to not to sell [our bitcoin] at such a low price," Vavilov added.

Again the fact that this one time event was so against the norm that it made the news should hint on how the normal course of business goes. Would BitFury selling their inventory to fund new farm made the news??? Think that be considered the normal course of business
2515  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 27, 2014, 12:36:42 AM
Adam etc, when will we see 390 again hehe..?

Also, how is it possible that if someone starts to dump on let's say Bitfinex. Bitstamp for some reason follows instantly (or the opposite)?

If you're selling you want to minimize your slippage, so you need volume. Instead of dumping on one exchange you split the dumping across multiple exchanges. And of course the other part (like with Mr 30k bearwhale on stamp) is arbitragers (sp?). Bots buy on cheaper exchanges and sell on higher for profit.
2516  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 12:31:40 AM
I've already tried to make this same point multiple times in this thread, but it just seems to make the naysayers more stubborn. These mega-mining farms are working to devour their competition while raking in the dough. They're not delusional hodlers who are betting on BTC going to the moon in 10 years or whatever. There's profits to be taken right now, and these people are ready to milk this cash cow dry.


Yeah i'm yet to hear a valid counter point to this. Although i don't see them as evil, just part of the ecosystem/capitalism. Hope the halving and a risk of a hard fork if they get out of control would keep them in check.
2517  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 27, 2014, 12:12:45 AM
Larger and larger mining farms are not what's increasing selling pressure. To the contrary, the larger the farm the cheaper the electricity and the cheaper the hardware to better the operating margin becomes.
A high operating margin gives miners the option to retain more of the mined Bitcoins while a low operating margin forces the miner to sell or at least get more capital by other means to pay bills.

Mining farms are in the business of mining, not risk taking on currency fluctuation. Once gain if they're so profitable in mining the logical thing is to reinvest that income and expand the profitable mining operation, not horde your inventory in hopes it goes up. Just like a gold mining, i'm assuming they sell most of their resources as soon if not before they get it, they don't speculate on price swings (much).

And once again there are 3600BTC mined EVERY day. Either by mega farms or solo miners across the glove. In both cases i think everyone agrees that MAJORITY of those BTC will end up on the market, so market needs to find a price point at which those BTC can be absorbed. Now the argument is:
1-who is more likely to sell most of mined coins, mega farms or your solo farmers?
2-And by how much? If it's by 1-2% does it really make a difference.

I think history shows that first miners were horders, and actually just did it as a hobby at a loss. So i tend to lean that mega farmers would sell more, but again how much does it matter? There will be 3600new btc today and someone will own them
2518  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: October 26, 2014, 04:14:08 AM



every time I buy BTC goes down at least $50 3 days later...beginning to think it is ME...sorry guys...best I not buy....the btc karma guys hate my ass

(besides you all will likely hunt me down if I continue such actions!)

so maybe I will just sit on hands for a bit....



Last time I bought the price plummeted $200.  So ... ya .... sitting on hands here too.

When I sell it goes up!  Sold one coin today.  Had to because too many bills to pay.  But it should help the price at least! Wink

Then don't stop keep on selling think it's working
2519  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 26, 2014, 04:12:32 AM
I tried  Tongue

But how's that different from say have just google run one large mega farm, as long as you own stocks of google and get your share of btc through dividends you're good right? ...right?

I can't see why a company running a mining farm would want to cause harm to bitcoin. They're all deeply invested and are actively profiting from it, therefore keeping their business alive. Killing it would hurt them more as a company than it would hurt you and me. Remember that one time the evil GHASh.IO reached 51% of the total hashrate? It wasn't even entirely their fault that the pool held 51% of the network's hashing power for a moment since people willingly choose to mine there. Yet no harm was caused.

Don't think they ever reached 51% did they? thought they just got close.

And there are so many arguments against centralization i don't even know where to start. I guess the easiest is regulations, even if it's not in the companies interest, companies are easily manipulated and have to report to government. Regulation will go in place to try to control it/shut it down/freeze accounts etc etc etc etc...
2520  Economy / Speculation / Re: The negative impact of mining farms on: October 26, 2014, 03:37:58 AM
...Maybe in the end centralised mining is not all that bad... 

Most people invested in BTC would strongly disagree.

Super strongly. Isn't there a hard fork for this kind of thing?

I'd agree that you cherry picked the worst part out of my post. Tongue The part you quoted arguably sounds bad. Especially since you left out my explanation on why I don't think it's all that bad since most of the mined bitcoins (although mined from a a few companies) are still distributed and circulated from/to a large range of individuals.


I tried  Tongue

But how's that different from say have just google run one large mega farm, as long as you own stocks of google and get your share of btc through dividends you're good right? ...right?
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