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2561  Other / Off-topic / Re: Consciousness on: March 09, 2012, 05:31:19 PM
2. Just DNA life is bound to happen, given a primordial soup.

3. Life is common in the Universe, and technology wielding life is common, and they have spread through their home galaxy in a diaspora.

3. Even a moderate fraction of light speed is not possible. Consider our technology. Our fastest spacecraft would require something like 70,000 years to reach the nearest star, and it's only 4.5 light years away, as opposed to stars in our own galaxy that are nearly a hundred thousand light years away. Still, consider generation ships migrating outwards, or utilizing the resources in the Oort Cloud to hop our away across the void between the stars the way the Pacific Islands were colonized.

Those three sound the most plausible to me. But I'm just guessing.
2562  Other / Off-topic / Re: Consciousness on: March 09, 2012, 05:28:09 PM
Here's a very sobering thought, though. If we're all descendants from the same species of microscopic DNA based life, then it seems that it only happened once. Why aren't there other descendants from other primordial microscopic forms of life on Earth?

Have you seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7TAGf4lOXA
2563  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 05:22:30 PM
When Bitcoin started it was basically just an experiment. I don't really see any "novelty" use of Bitcoin.

Really? You don't think it's a novelty when a guy buys a pizza with 10.000 BTC instead with a $10 bill?

EDIT: BTW "an experiment" is also 'a use' other than as a currency.. so you kind of already made my point.  Cool

You can also make a joint from a dollar bill. That is also a use other than as a currency. Does that make dollars a commodity?

Of course! The mere fact that it's a paper bill makes it a commodity!
2564  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 05:21:27 PM
What are bitcoins units of? Can you offer a non-circular definition?

Electricity and CPU(GPU) power spent on mining?!
2565  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 05:09:28 PM
Ugh. People and their beliefs.

This is really pointless. I see logically consistent reason to call it a commodity, so that's what I'm going to do. If someone disagrees, well, what the fuck do I care. Be my guest and call it what you will.
2566  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 05:00:52 PM
When Bitcoin started it was basically just an experiment. I don't really see any "novelty" use of Bitcoin.

Really? You don't think it's a novelty when a guy buys a pizza with 10.000 BTC instead with a $10 bill?

EDIT: BTW "an experiment" is also 'a use' other than as a currency.. so you kind of already made my point.  Cool
2567  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 04:58:47 PM
Bitcoin is *effectively* a currency because that is what it does and how people use it. Although, it does have some special properties that make it a very novel and unusual type of currency.

A commodity always has a use by itself. If gold were not used as medium of exchange or storage of value it would still be useful because you can make useful things with it, such as electronics and jewelry.

Bitcoin does not have that property. If I were the only person in the world to have Bitcoins it would be useless, just as with any other currency.

Hmmmm - if you were the only one in the world to have gold, would it not be similarly worthless? One can derive aesthetic value from gold, but a computer nerd can similarly derive tech-geek aesthetic value from Bitcoins. Indeed, before BTC had a market price, people traded them because they are cool - there is an aesthetic property to Bitcoin as a thing, just like a shiny stone or metal.

And further, it is not true that Bitcoin has "no" value other than money. There are a few weird uses people have mentioned - a timestamp, a means of anonymous proof of various info, a distributed record keeper, and certainly others we haven't considered.

So while bitcoin's value may be due 99.999% to its usefulness as money, it has some tiny fraction of value beyond that. Does that not then satisfy your commodity definition? Let's remember too that gold's value is vastly due to its use as money and a store of value (which derives in turn from its usefulness as money). If jewelry and industry were the only uses of gold, it's price would be vastly lower, probably in the single digits of what it is now.

So what then is the fundamental difference that makes gold a commodity money, but not bitcoin? Both are commodity monies in my opinion, the former a physical commodity and the later a digital commodity.

This couldn't be more inline as to how I view the world.
2568  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 04:49:36 PM
Bitcoin is *effectively* a currency because that is what it does and how people use it. Although, it does have some special properties that make it a very novel and unusual type of currency.

Just because some people use it for barter doesn't mean it's a currency. Would you say sheep are currency just because people in Afghanistan use them for trade? At most it's a local currency because it lacks the typical "generally accepted" part of it's definition.

A commodity always has a use by itself. If gold were not used as medium of exchange or storage of value it would still be useful because you can make useful things with it, such as electronics and jewelry.

Bitcoin does not have that property.

What about the use of Bitcoin as a novelty? When Bitcoin got started it had no other use but as novelty much like gold jewelry.

If I were the only person in the world to have Bitcoins it would be useless, just as with any other currency.

Completely irrelevant.
2569  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 03:56:53 PM
Tell me what the bitcoins themselves are useful for beyond a unit of exchange.

How can I if I just did but you wont listen?:

Those are not uses for bitcoin, nor the bitcoin network at present

Honestly, I know it's an impossible task, as I have already mentioned, bitcoins don't really exist.

There is nothing that says the Bitcoin system can only serve one purpose. Once people clearly understand what it is many different be figured out. But even just the use as a novelty as enough to fulfill the requirement of a commodity. And that's certainly what it was at the very beginning.
2570  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 03:52:51 PM

Bitcoin is definitely NOT a security as it requires the promise or backing of no separate party. The Bitcoin software is indeed an accounting system, but Bitcoins themselves are not an accounting system.


I'm going to have to dissent here for technical reasons.  In reality, bitcoins are no more than a mental construct.  They don't even exist as a digital object.  Only transactions exist, and they are not, themselves, bitcoins.  There is only the accounting system.

I disagree. I mean aren't there tokens within this accounting system? Does it matter that these tokens exist only as part of transactions?

No, there are no tokens, not even in the transactions.  There are only the transactions, with entries on who is sending bitcoins to whom (via addresses) and how much.  That is all.

Well yes but also no. I mean aren't the numbers representing something? It's not like if I'm sending you a 1, I'm sending you 1 bitcoin. Even though in the system there is nothing else recorded but the number 1 in a transactions that 1 still represents something otherwise bitcoins wouldn't really be fungible because once I send you 1, 1 is yours and yours only, and no one else can send 1, no?
2571  Economy / Gambling / Re: StrikeSapphire | We need some support. on: March 09, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
I would sign up and play but I don't want to give out my name or any of my other info. Can I do that?
2572  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 03:43:38 PM

Bitcoin is definitely NOT a security as it requires the promise or backing of no separate party. The Bitcoin software is indeed an accounting system, but Bitcoins themselves are not an accounting system.


I'm going to have to dissent here for technical reasons.  In reality, bitcoins are no more than a mental construct.  They don't even exist as a digital object.  Only transactions exist, and they are not, themselves, bitcoins.  There is only the accounting system.

I disagree. I mean aren't there tokens within this accounting system? Does it matter that these tokens exist only as part of transactions?
2573  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 03:41:46 PM
Tell me what other use bitcoins serve and I'll agree that it's a commodity.

Vote counting, clock, novelty and various other reasons one can use an openly shared digital record that no one can forge but where people can make entries pseudononymously.

There are lots of uses for Bitcoin other than a monetary one. Gold was primarily used a jewelry and one could easily argue "hey that's not a real use for something to just look pretty.."
2574  Other / Off-topic / Re: Consciousness on: March 09, 2012, 03:38:31 PM
Did you watch that video yet?
2575  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Not a currency, not a commodity, but an accounting system on: March 09, 2012, 03:14:44 PM
A digital commodity fits it so perfectly I seriously can't see anything absurd about it.
2576  Economy / Marketplace / Re: The Armory - Weapon Marketplace on: March 09, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
For those of you saying more guns = more crime, how about you explain Switzerland to me then. Almost every house has a military rifle and it's one of the safest low crime places on this planet.
2577  Other / Off-topic / Re: Consciousness on: March 08, 2012, 08:57:52 PM
Consider the amoeba. It is a single celled organism with no neurons at all. Yet under my microscope I can watch them hunt, avoid things, even make choices about what to do next. How?

Well aren't basically the molecules inside the Amoeba reacting with molecules in it's environment? Btw I'm a huge layman when it comes to biology and chemistry and I basically know only as much as I was taught about it in school and seen a documentary or read an article since..

I did however understand what that synthetic cell really was or how it was made but still to me it shows one important thing which is that the crucial molecules needed for life are nothing more than the right chemicals organized in the right way. I wished this stuff was open source and freely shared, I'd bet we'd have a lot of answers very fast.

Also, did you see this TED talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMrzdk_YnYY To me it was really really revealing as to how we should think about consciousness. It gets especially interesting from the 11min mark forward.
2578  Other / Off-topic / Re: Consciousness on: March 08, 2012, 05:18:51 PM
Hmmm have you heard about the synthetic cell? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyAOepIU6uo

Plus aren't you incorrectly describing how life is theorized came to be by saying "a molecule became alive" but rather that once upon a time certain molecules started chain reacting with each other and they still do today?
2579  Other / Meta / [Split] Bitcoin press hits, comments on: March 08, 2012, 04:11:42 PM
Maybe this one could also be a sticky.
2580  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Security update: duplicate transaction vulnerability fix on: March 08, 2012, 03:35:47 PM
Maybe the person who owns http://bitcoinwatch.com/ could post this thread in the "Latest news" section of their website?
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