You are right on this, an experiment shows they accept direct transfer to specific person (not company). It's a mistake of my notes, and on this they are exceptional.


If they intend to flee with all trader's money is a subject matter to be decided (not to be mooted). In Zeng Chengjie's case, the company was seized by government, which contain fund from a very large group of people, and most asset was sold by the government in a hurry at low price, then, they accused the company owner for not being able to pay the fund (of course, as they are sold cheap), and execution was fast. So it was not Zeng intend illegal thing for the money, but a decision was made that he must intend so.

From your langauge I assume you are aware things here enought to tell provincial government act differently than a central government. It is harder for central government to direct such a show as in Zeng's case and "find" a money fraud which doesn't exist. So yes, they are not "risking" their lives if the thing is handled by central government. But although central government doesn't often act ruthles childishly, like Zheng Chenjie's case, it nevertheless is ruthless when it consider authority is in danger and an example has to be made, like the other case with another Mr Zeng (Zeng Junjie), so if btcchina people are in real danger depends on two factors, 1: if the case is a central government issue and 2) if the case evolved that needs to be taken as a challane of national authority (e.g. fiscal). I summarized these two factors as "nevertheless they are risking their lifes" because I do think so.

Where is the line?

The behaviour of a gambler and a desperate investor is the same, if they don't have faith in what they are investing in.

For your information, in some areas of Beijing the rent-to-purchase ratio of real estate is already at the level of 1000:1 (norm is 200:1), that is much beyond when Japan had their real estate bubble burst. And real investors, investors betting the happiness of the rest of his life and his family's, are still pouring money into Beijing real estate purchase. Are they investors or gamblers? Just this morning I read a post someone saying he put his life's saving into bitcoin and wishing it to triple, so that he can cash out and buy real estate in Beijing and thus move to live in Beijing. There are much less logic behind investment, only sentiment matters.

I am stil betting this madness can go on a few days - after that, it depends on the sentiment.

I answered this before, and you haven't read it. Just search for keyword "Zeng" in this thread. Here is more information: among the 7 Chinese exchange service providers that I am monitoring, only btcchina published a name and an address on their website, all others anonymous. All exchange providers do not accept direct bank transfer (nor domestic nor international) and only accept money through virtual accounts on alipay/tenpay (like paypal in China) because it is easier to fake personal information on these virtual accounts. Now you realize being anonymous is bad for running exchange service business - how do you entrust others to put money on your trading account? So why do they still choose to be anonymous? Because they want to keep their body alive, even a billionaire like Zeng cannot save his life.

In other words, those who operate btcchina is betting their lives or runnning incognito without our awareness. They are either the bravest or they are the biggest fraud. If they used real names, they still have a good chance to keep their body (not company) alive, as they are betting Central Government being more cautious on killing, while provincial government less, and bitcoin is going to be a central government issue. But nevertheless they are betting their lives. And I am not yet sure if btcchina people deserve a lot of respect, they could be just too greedy than too bold (their 0% trade fee policy and higher volume than MtGox fits the picture of the ubiquitous winner-take-all ambition in China, a characteristic of our time).

Oh yes I forgot that. Thank you! I just added it to my signature.

1H8zTiwu7cLFzoVaUkUSGZhEgE8RKxyQbZ

The need is common. Sell once the price drop below a stop lose line. Or even better, sell when there is a rush sale going on (e.g. price dropped faster than 1USD per minute). 1) does it exist? and 2) what is the best starting point of working out one myself?

Best.

Just when people in the U.S. are sleeping, we reached 220USD (price of fxbtc.com, one exchange that I am tracking)
The time axis in the below chart is GMT.


I hope you read my previous post:

"false signal resulted rally in China, and it won't stop. "

If you haven't, please read it. There are subtle information, very local and fresh, that you must pay attention before your investment decisions.

If we get caught in the typical Chinese gambling spirit, it will be a huge bull followed by a really hard fall. I need some time to study the sentiment on the Chinese forums. Right now I assume it will continue for a few days.

If you have been paying attention, the sudden rises in China for the last one full week, tends to take place by the evening of Beijing time. That is, we may even be luck enough to welcome another peak in one or two hours (from the time I post this).

Good morning. I am surprised to see so many replies overnight.

Before answering please take a look at the new price now, Chinese trader's price is close to price of MtGox, very unusual (China used to be big export country so the price of bitcoins was often the cheapest of all global markets).

People always see what they wish to see. I also read Chinese bitcoin forums, and there is a recent poster, awaring baidu cannot stir up such a rally by the event itself, attribute the rally to that "also in the U.S. after silkroad traders feel positive because crime is purged from bitcoin".

Today's price is rising as usual, and mind the sharp raise of all Chinese exchang's price at GMT 00:00, which is local time 8 in the morning. The excitement yesterday must have made some birds rise early. Please mind that it is definitely not solid, Chinese traders are not confident - you have to decide for your own if there will be a straight bull market as confidence gets confirmed and grow, or an early rush sell. I myself betted the former and am exposed to the risk of latter, because it is too risky to be prudent: the confidence may get past to the west and change the mood globally.


Exactly my take on the things.


How do you even come to that point? This is completely mind-bogging! The government sees tools as means to control people, and obedience as Chinese be, do you think we love to obey? That we have the slightest idea to adore our government? People has to be chained to stay obedient! In my personal opinion, under this pressure people is more likely to develop to scoundrels than docile, begetting more chains.


Answer your first question: I don't even bother to look up, one person 120 Q-coin per month is unbelievable nowadays. Such a limitation would serves better the purpose to test the chain - how willing a company complies with governmental rules that is against its own interest. In reality QQ makes money on entertaining people, which is never bad for a centralized power.

And your second question: I think bitcoin is too small to matter now. Unlike in the U.S. where banks own the government (at least I heard so) here government owns the bank. It look like the kind of issue that the government will take direct action with its prosecutors and police, not through policies in the People's Bank of China. (FYI In China the person prosecuted is always "found" guilty.)


Zeng was not that stupid to challange his government; he didn't. Government is made of people; the official he believe that backs him is removed from high position and his pervious investment stuck in the goverment. He probably tried to get the money back, and was likely killed for that reason. Before you assume him a tough guy, know that he may be well docile with the previous official, just got caught a unmerciful disaster. A good lesson for power strugglers. Also keep in mind that a leader of a province in China has as many man under his reign as an emperor in Europ, not to be trifled with.


So you saw for yourself the roaring 20s franticness.


Can you back that? I also suspected they have fake volume with their 0% fee for a while, but it may even be true.


This is unrealistic. I took it as a typical U.S. idea. Why Chinese government think much of U.S. when it comes to bitcoin? More straight question: why Chinese government should take it a priority to fight the U.S.? Perhaps the people in the U.S. think they are really important and we are here everyday figuring how to fight the U.S. The chief enemy of Chinese government is, frankly, Chinese people. So is the second and third enemy. U.S. lines up the fifth enemy of Chinese government. You are not that important in this decision making.

China blocks western news outlet and facebook; don't have any idea China is doing this to fight U.S., they do it to fight us the people.

Also mind that Q-coin has a different position than Bitcoin. As said, in China (people think that) nothing significant can take root without being part of the government. This holds true with Q-coin. The company behind Q-coin doesn't hesitate to follow governmental scutiny - other big players baidu, sina all show obiendiance to the central governmental the same way, and are allowed to live. The game that is called reguation in the west is equivilent to the game of obiendiance here. So it is not the question whether bitcoin can be regulated, but whether bitcoin can obey. Bitcoin trading can be regulated but bitcoin itself bends to no one - which begets the question whether or not it will be allowed to live.

On the other hand, if Bitcoin becomes so significant that the government has to make a decision, and they decided to let it live, the acceptance of bitcoin will have no consumer psychological barrier, because, as you said, we are pretty familiar with virtual currencies.

On a side note of P2P: a centralized government can only do a handful of things at a time. The fight to copyright protection is dismissed as tirival. it is non trivial in the U.S. because corporates takes root in the government, where here is the opposite, the government take root in companies. In the U.S. big companies plant their people in the government, here the government plant people in the company's board (e.g. through Party Committee which exists within most named vendors). Besides, P2P video exchange, popular in china perhaps more than any other country, happens without much user's awareness. It is not that people are more willing to share, but that the commercialized P2P software does P2P in the background and the companies operating this ain't worried of being sued.

More or less agreed. However if bitcoin present challange to authority (not to actual fiscal power, but to the image of authority, like that "Chinese government can maintain the stability of our own currency"), they treat it differently.

If Chinese government pays attention to bitcoin, it would act the same way they do towards shadow banking: fine those involved in bitcoin yet backed by government, and prosecute the entities without gvernment backing (even execute a few, like the unlucky millionaire Wu Ying last year and Zeng Chengjie this year). The charge will be as usual: illegal fund-raising.

Right now there are two points that needs to be considered on understaind Chinese behaviour:

1. Chinese traders speculate. Few believed in a non-governmental currency taking root, as few believed anything significant yet non-governmental can take root. This translate to a huge bear market when Chinese government acts.

2. The atomsphere in China is like the roaring twenties which I read from books. Everyone feels like they are ready to make a big fortune. This can translates to potential huge bulls.

My two cents.

I feel it is still years away until Chinese government taking action on bitcoin. A centralized power does only a handful of things at a time, and their hands are full in Xi's first 2 year's reign. (Xi is a surname, not roman number 11)

If you search the topic in baidu of the last week's price rise, and you search in Chinese, most posts and reports ascribe it to the recent adoption of bitcoin payment method by a web service of Baidu (jiasule.baidu.com).

For example this report of sina.com (one of the biggest Chinese online news outlet):
http://tech.sina.com.cn/i/2013-10-17/10248825635.shtml

These reports suggests that the adoption by Baidu is a signal that the big vendors are accepting bitccoin - consider the close tie between baidu and central government, that the government may be interested too. It is like saying Microsoft or Facebook started to accept bitcoin. That tapped on the emotion and BTC rose.

I think the big vendors are no way closer to accepting bitcoin in the last week than any weeks before. It is indeed a small change, and signals nothing from big vendors nor the central government at all.

Chinese information technology vendors, including the big ones, in general prefer the studio model. A big company is devided into multiple studios, some companys have 100 studios. They each compete against each other. They compete on revenue and profit, within the embralla of a same company. Each studio find their own ways of making profit, and enjoy freedom of decision as long as they are making money. The mother company acts like a referee, dismissing unprofitable studios and buying out (admitting) small competitors to form new studios; the mother company also act as a protector, backing the studios with tremendous PR and governmental relationship power in case their competitor choose to fight on a different level (which also happens). This fast-proliferating fast-evoluting style isn't very co-ordinated, but it is effective because in general in China our culture emphasize competition, and we like to compete and win and we work the best if competition is physically next door. If instead big vendors are organized like Microsoft to co-operate and create huge products (Windows 7) in 5-year span, the youngsters wouldn't stay on their edge - they need quick confirmation whether they are wining or not - they work very hard but doesn't have much patience. Skipping between studios is frequent, the fast-growing studios get more resource and people.

The recent acceptance of bitcoin is likely a decision of a single stuidio in the embralla of baidu, perhaps trying to beat other studios of the same company. Baidu HQs speaksman said nothing about bitcoin in the whole year. How Baidu HQs treats the move is unkown, and they probably don't have an attitude, for it (bitcoin) is trivial compare to the huge online information market they are already on. News interview suggests this is a decision of an individual studio: "We always try to satisfy the webmasters, so when they want to pay with bitcoin, we accept them". Notice the interviewee said 'webmasters', that's the customers of this studio, not Baidu in whole, and he speaks for his own studio.

Also take notice the customer of this studio (jiasule.baidu.com), the webmasters, happen to be the major group of bitcoin miners in China.

So why such a small piece of news that indicates nothing for sure, stirs up such a rally? More important than the news itself it says Chinese investors are desperately looking for a reason to rally. They perhaps expected bitcoin to be above 1000¥ for a long time, now they only need a slight upward vibrate to rally. And they have a good reason to hope for a rally, for they bought huge amount of mining equipments in anticipation of raise of bitcoin value.

My reading of the event is, that Chinese investors are anticipating a rally for a long time, thus it won't cool down in just a few days. However they are speculating, not having much faith in sustanibility of bitcoin and may be frighten away by small bad news within China. They are less sensitive to western news like silkroad.

In China we have highly centralized political power. The chance Chinese government allows bitcoin on the markets (when it calls their attention) is like the chance U.S. government raise debt in BTC. The big vendors foresee it and shouldn't be interested. Besides we have a monoplay business atomosphere in China (every player are greedy, wants to win and take all), and you don't monoplay bitcoin. I see no reason Baidu being interested to include bitcoin into their development strategy. Small vendors are much more likely to be interested in btc.

(OP is a Chinese citizen in Beijing)

And a lot of mining machines are built in Poland too.

I remember marveling at it by the year 2011, that there are two bitcoin markets operating in poland, one of them I can still remember being intersango, and now MtGox's bank account is in Poland again. Why all these market flock in Poland? Is it because it, despite being in eurozone, doesn't use EURO thus is less restrictive about transfers in EURO?

Can you back your statement of "living 6 months"? If you do a Google search it traces back exactly to your post.

The requirement to open a bank account for foreigners can be found by just googling. keyword I used is "Documents required to open a personal account in  poland" and the following is discovered on the FIRST PAGE of google search result, how hard can it be?

http://www.polishforums.com/business-economy-14/essential-information-opening-first-personal-bank-account-53874/

that forum discussion specificly said you don't need a permanent address in Poland. Check it for details.


I think the only secrect OP possesses is about the names of the two banks, that's why he won't tell. Now you know which banks can do that for you (mind that the quoted information dates Sep 2011, hope someone is kind enough to verify that nowadays)

By the way, if I were you, I wouldn't waste an opportunity to experience the exotic Nordic countries. Do you only see money in your eyes? If you acquire a tourism VISA to europ - the easiest type to get, the longest period you can apply for is 3 months. If people believed your 6-month statement, which is exactly twice you can get and not found elserwhere on the Internet, they would think they cannot do that through a tour, and that they must use the service of the OP.

Thanks! tested and it works for me. Here is a minimalist sample that works on python3. There are a lot of changes needed for python3, including frequently converting str to bytes, incompatible urlencode() and lack of urllib2. This example uses python-requests to shorten the code in attempt to manifest the security measurement:

Output (activated the last most-complicated example)

Thanks a lot! Decyphering the MtGox API really need some team work, because it is plain trial and error. The error message was never clear and some thing works something not. It is a waste of intelligence to try individually. For example I cannot figure out why I used to be able to repeatedly check order result this mid day and now I am not able to do it even once (HTTP Error 403: Forbidden) with exactly the same code -- guessing tounce can help exclude some causes. I am going to try it as soon as I am sober, now I am drinking because I got sick of it.

Sadly, It again showed that one doesn't have to be able to design well in order to occupy the market...

Turns out this is exactly the problem: if the order is open, there won't be any result of it. Only closed orders can be inquired with this API.

On another topic, there is little information about how to authenticate against MtGox STREAMING API. Do I must overcome the API2 authentication problem in order to attempt Stream API?

Quote from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API/Streaming#Authenticated_commands

So, if I use Streaming API I cannot use API2, right? I really need the feature like MONEY/ORDER/RESULT which doesn't seem to work in API_1†

--

† with API_1, MONEY/ORDER/RESULT always complain:
{'error': 'No data found', 'result': 'error', 'token': 'unknown_order_id'}

When I know the order ID is prefect existing and open, by double checking result from MONEY/ORDERS, and finding the order ID I request is byte-identical to what MONEY/ORDERS returns. I also know the POST parameters are correct, because if I change post parameter from 'order_id' to 'oid' (as the way it was returned from MONEY/ORDERS) I got missing order_id parameter error.

Hi. I have been trying to follow the unofficial documentation for 2 days without success. What frastrate me is even the simpliest case directly taken from example code doesn't work.

The first example code is, forgive me putting up all:

And it fail out of the box:

I "fix" it by renaming the variable hmac to hmac2, and I get:


This is really clueless, if the server just give an 5xxx without any detail. The key/secret used in my case works fine on API_1, and I tried again by applying a new key/secret, which failed with exactly the same 500.

Do you have a code snippet of minimal working code to access an authenticated-user-only feature? E.g. to access wallet information would be perfect. I usually use python3 and am happy to morph a piece of working python2 code to a piece of working python3 code.

The documentation is a rather big topic, worth making up a mailing list or separate board. I feel guilty to make this disordered thread even longer.

The next example I can look up is this:

http://pastebin.com/aXQfULyq

Which also stopped working as soon as I need to do something that requires authentication. From their source it seems they don't even encrypt post data as part of their Sign, thus must fail authentication -> only work for public accessible URIs.

They could be the arbitrageurs. Consider mtgox price tops the world's market, there is an incentive for people to sell in that market and at the mean time spend the same money to buy more bitoins in their home market at cheaper price, and wait for the withdraw comes back to their home market in the following days/weeks.