Deception doesn't have to involve fiat money. e.g. deception with passport is deception, with or without money. I don't see why assets can't merit deception. I personally did not say bitcoin is money. It is an asset on which we speculate that may become money. Since paltry as the weapons and amors you got in World of Warcraft is considered asset and lawfully protected on the merit that players laboured to obtain it, I don't see why a commodity (bitcoin) widely accepted in the world not counting as asset. If someone says they are to buy gold from me, I give the gold and he disappared, can the police say I am not deceived because no fiat money was paid so far? If ths man instead pays me one Pound for a block of gold before he disappears, will the police say "now your case merit a deception because One Pound of fiat is involved"?

It is not the case that he said I cannot pay your money, it is that the company and website disappared with the money. I am really surprised that you think this is not deception. You asked me not to shoot the messenger, but what you said is simply against my common sense. All these: accepting deposite when withdraw is not possible, fake message of system powered down, and not disclosing the fact of insolvence when they know it. Hell, someone disappeared with a promise-to-pay, and you ask where is the deception. Please other members post to confirm whether or not I am just experiencing a huge culture shock.

There are only two persons who made public big claims, me and icicle. You ask that why do someone "deposite" 30+ coins into an exchange that at any time can only offer to trade 20 bitcoins, the answer is I did not know it was so until today you told me. Admittedly I am far less resourceful and informed as you are, but isn't that the characteristic of victims? I cannot speak for her but to prove my own claim, my biggest deposites are the two following:


The coins, as I track on blockchian, with following transactions, went to multiple addresses after deposited, and most of these addressess show 0BTC as final. If I track further, I am perhaps tracking other customer's wallet, so I stopped in 5 rounds.

So I answered your 'confusion' but may I know why do you think Patrick's asset is not going to be hurt? Is it because Amir is a public figure and Patrick isn't? Saying only Amir's asset at risk is also against my common sense.

Expected to be in Beijing around that time anyway, I may pay a visit, but I expect not very fruitful result. The 3,800CNY ticket will frighten off even the rich investors. We (Chinese) watch our wallets tighter than Jews (referring to the legend version of Jews) and we only spend large on displaying social status (buying lux brands and not removing the label). There will not be many people buying entrance (referring to the Chinese sense of "not many people").

Roger Ver is described as being invited to the meeting. For such a down-to-the-earth man I can feel his surprise on seeing only rich investors around.

It is true that Chinese govt has given implied approval of Bitcoin trading/buying/selling given the fact that most exchanges are operating now under real companies/personages.

About trade volume:

They are major players speaking. In the top-4 exchanges' speakers, 3 of them are either co-founder or CEO, with exception of OKCOIN who sent a customer-service manager to speak.

Out of the top-4 exchange's speakers, one accused their competitors of fake trade volumes, one hinted so. Ironically, the accuser looks terribly untrustworthy. If I am to predict a weak link in the chain, I would bet him (a co-founder of huobi, name's Zhu Jun). This very personage also, in an apparent move to discredit competitors, said that [because no one has the integrity] every company would use customer's money when they are losing the game, only winners can keep fiduciary obligation. The safe way is [not to go with honesty but] to go with the winner - and needless to say his company reports highest trade volume. The audience seems to agree with him under the MtGox saga (they are losing so they decided to violate the trust), not awaring that he is begging the question. What is more interesting is that Mr Zhu's competitiors look admiring him and hoping to get an exuberant bold speaker like him on their side. Very interesting. It takes a westerner's view of the world up-side-down.

True. That is my reading. Techies don't consider themselves rich, but that's because they ignores the poor.

I endeavoured to travel hundreds miles away to Xi'an for last weekend's bitcoin event ( www.yangyang.tv hosted it). Given time I'd write a full report, but in this forum of speculators a few words of sentiments should suffice.

• First I wish to warn speculators of a possible major fiduciary obligation violation in China in bitcoin circle, can be as early as this year 2014. This is through observation of the death-match-ready culture I occassionally smell (read my other article for culture background). I am not sure if bitcoin circle's event would splash an impact though - Chinese are now more frantic about knock-off altcoins.
• Second: larceny in China is to cause more damage to trust than the same level of security breach would normally cause, because exchanges are playing banks' role. Although everybody are apparently worried about fund security, no one in the event knows electrum and amory. Some use bitcoin client as-is; most keep the money on the exchange and use them as a bank. Most major exchanges offer wallets, but they are only as trust-worthy as the exchanges. Some in the meeting argues that keeping the coins on exchange accounts may be safer than in bitcoin-qt, because few have the resource to secure their own PC (they feel helpless against viruses).
• In the event, any time not spent on discussing security and mining, are spent on discussing margin trading. 3 of the 4 top Chinese exchanges are offering margin trading: they are: chbtc, huobi, okcoin. The one not offering margin trading, but instead offered liquidity rebate (a measurement to stablize price, opposite to margin trading) is BTCChina.
• To my surprise, only a few are geeks, and that many non-geek participants in the Xi'an event look as if they scrapes by. To think these are the ones engaging margin trading frightens me.
• Understand that China has been ruled by a strong government for a long time. The resistance towards centralized power usually is the highest in early stage, later they are tamed. I don't feel any one wish to sign praise to bitcoin for its decentralization nature. Their is no hatred for the government, banks, society: they just want to be allowed to grow rich and bitcoin is the means.

I am only covering a free-to-enter meeting in Xi'an (not nearly as cosmopolitan as Shanghai). The upcoming event in Beijing ( http://www.globalbtcsummit.com ) should offer a chance to have a good look at other players who can afford to pay the 3,800CNY entrance fee (around one bitcoin at the current price), if I can manage to see through Beijing's trademark smog.

Big change from 2013: in the past most exchanges run incognito like BTC-E, now most run under a company umbrella.

I should not be surprised if interest returns to Bitcoin later this year, as mercurial as Chinese players may be.

P.S. In this forum I have fine records of previous speculative opinions. e.g. I bet the price had the gloomy outlook built-in before the Chinese-new-year's dead-line issued by central government, and speculators are wait for nothing. It turns out the price is indeed flat in the days around the deadline.

That's my opinion, because I did it for a financial investment and bitcoin in the current decade is an investment scheme. (WE are investing on the possibility it becomes a currency by 2020, at the current moment we are doing it for digital asset, that's my reading.)



When I deposited the coins into my empty account, I deposite with bitcoins that I bought elsewhere at a recent price, intending to sell them. So I converted that cost to sterlings and filled in the number. But, perhaps even your a few pounds look bigger to the police than mine tens of thouands, because I file for lose of asset and you file for lose of cash investment. Or you can fill in the current value of your asset and explain in a comment? You can refer to my case if you like, I just sent my case number to you in private message.

I did not attempt to call, because I don't know what to say. Should I ask for confirmation of my username and the remain asset? I know them in my heart. Do you ask them again anyway in order to tape the conversation? Or what do everyone call them for?

I expect they moved money away in the two year's span. If it were two years ago, by the time of this asset table, suing them for liability isn't a dead-end, because when you "deposite" money into Intersango, you are the creditor, and the company should pay your credit with current asset, not with net asset.

If the information can be obtained easily, I wonder if the same should be done to all bitcoin businesses in operation, for the benifit of the community. Studies of Mark K.'s personality and background only surfaced in the aftermath, such background study should be done before.

Since you have the printout, can you post so that I can attach it to my fraud report? I perfer if you could file a fraud report yourself too (Action Fraud) if you are a customer, and attach the information. Having there business closed and the deed done, Patrick and Amir have no incentive to accuse you for exposing the record.

To my common sense, any evidence of Fraud could get everything siezed and his personal assets could be at stake. that means not limiting to the 2 pound the company registered with.


I hope I can spare more time on how U.K. system works. Perhaps it is easy, as quoted, but there is a huge culture gap to cross. As much as I want to be an law-abiding citizen, I do not live in the first world.

Today I received an email titled "Fraud Confirmed". The content is an auto-generated message, that if investigation has any progress they would let me know, plus that if they don't inform me, then there is no progress (infer that "don't slow us down by checking").


Thanks a lot! I knew Selachii LLP is representing lots of people to sue MtGox, but I was vainly waiting for them to publish an online form. Thanks to you I just learned they are asking people to register by sending them email! A very inefficient way to handle multitudes of clients. I just emailed them now.

The shorter URL I was redirected to is:
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/report_fraud

1. Remember don't select "Benifit, Tax or Passport". The Intersango is not a tax fraud, benifit fraud or passport fraud, and Action Fraud site doesn't deal the 3 cases.

2. When selecting Fraud Type, none of the default option seem fit. You can click the last option "give me more options" and this one in the expanded option list seem fit to me:
- Fraud to do with a financial investment, e.g. purchasing stocks or shares, a mortgage or an investment scheme

3. When an address of the fraud is needed, the postal code of 3rd floor, 14 Hangover Street, London, as I looked up, is "W1S 1YH "

I reported lose of bitcoins, but lose of fiat may call more attention? Here is what I reported, in case you want to adjust for your case and report yours:


Surprising to me, the reporting didn't ask for my passport or proof that I exist. Still, I am ready to submit these information. I also forgot to add any informatin of Patrick himself, you can add that part if you want. The combination of U.S.A. owner, British company and Poland bank account must be suspecious enough to call attentio to the officers, but I forgot to address this point and submitted.

Using "digital asset" instead of "digital currency" is intentional, because police vowed to protect people's asset, and digital currency (including in-game asset) are recognized as asset (in many countries, not sure U.K.). We are not asking them to admit Bitcoin as a currency in order to start their work. My naïve understanding is that the police face the dilemma whether or not recognize bitcoin as a currency only when we are buying things with it, so the Intersango case doesn't challange their idea of currency and I wish to address it is their duty after all. This one only my opinion, not a suggestion to everyone.

This is too lively to be true. Who wrote this? A movie script writer? A Polandball comic author?

Actually, we should be forgiving towards anyone apparently speaking English as a second language. He perhaps is acting perfectly OK in his own country. The aversion to poor native English speakers are often mistargeted towards EFL speakers.

A recent newspaper article laments the death of bitcoin, review how it made many rich and more fell. It states, although the bitcoin movement is officially dead, it has been a legacy of wealth. We have been inebriated in the dream of wealth and prosperity, and wake up too late. In the end, it is being said, lamenting spilt milk profits little, we should draw lessons from it. It was written in a sad tone, unlikely governmental propaganda.

But such articles perhaps doesn't have much influnece, because only the weathered has been trading since the government 15th Dec ban. For your information, nobody is discussing bitcoin in any of the common used-to-be-bitcoin QQ group, nobody, . Litecoin is mostly discussed, among many altcoins, some ironically named, e.g. "Dream Coin", others like "Use Horse Coin in the Horse Year" - I don't know how they are going to advertise if they survive past Year of Horse.

To know the thinking of the weathered, there is a coterie QQ group used to offer me sentiments. Recently they deleted me out without a word, and email to group master pleading help unrepied. I'll have to go social, face-to-face, visiting the nearest bitcoin meeting by traveling a few hundred miles, by this weekend (I live in the remote city of Lanzhou now). The only QQ group that still discuss Bitcoin is this coterie group. (Starting from 2011, I am weathered, except having not learned from it, and lost all early investments to the downfall of Intersango and MtGox).

One thing you can be sure, as it been tested with time: we have few idealists in China, to support bitcoin as an idea that can make the world a better one. We have few idealists for any ideas since culture revolution and the 89' Tiananmen square. Not even the China Dream campaign represent any idealism more than an anodyne. The few idealists in existance are not supported by the society in whole, and even among them there seems to be more communism idealists. In fact, under the zeitgeist the word idealism translated directly meant something different than we hitherto discussed: it (为理想奋斗) means being confident that you can be wealthy against all odds = willing to invest labour and is risk-seeking, and that kind of "idealists" we have lots. This offers you a backdrop for your speculative thinking. That is, if the world really scraps bitcoin, we won't be there to keep the tide.

Confirms, it is down for me from China too. We can find some pattern in this. MtGox stoped withdraw 2 weeks before the site went offline. The pattern means, if your exchange is stopping withdraw, you should panic:)

Thank you for your help PaperLess. It's rather professional. You are a person of details and very helpful to others.

The customized google search turns out empty page for me, is it inteded? That there is nothing?

I don't mind buying the report (less than 100 Chinese Yuan) but the problem is what action to take after having it. Even a visit to their office address is perhaps not necessary and should be skipped - you expect to see nothing and nobody there. The company is expected to have one person only, and he is expected to be in the U.S.

I don't even know which way to start to get these thing done - force liquidate the business. The procedure, cost and time etc etc.

Perhaps it make sense to start a small website 'intersango debt collect' to record the loses for the folks and as a basis of some action against Intersango? e.g. for people to file claims and make legal procedure to start.

icicle: I will repeat my case to any police officer who allowed you to file a case, once their contact method is known. I would like to inform the U.K. police officer of our similar stories if they had one assigned to your case. I feel many others would do the same, as you already know, there are many who reported unable to withdraw from Intersango.

And by 'confrontation' I don't mean to tie him to a lamppost (although that seems to work in China - too many population for police to care about such trivil fights, and I was innocently beaten on the street before, police didn't care). English is my second language so I perhaps wasn't clear. A few questions like "Do you still have everybody's coins" and "Are you still going to run the company" may reveal something. Sometimes even a good look at him serves some purpose, e.g. if he avoids eye contact, or if he was found drinking the days off. I don't know U.S. law but confrontation in the sense of self-introduction and asking questions seems common in U.S. movies, although I am not sure if taping the process is legal or not.

Since you found his mom as well, did you try to reach her? I mean, I won't assume she knows everything or is part of the game, but: I have been oversea once, and had a dispute with a local, and a text message asking the father for help solved it instantly when the police can't - the father doesn't even speak English nor my language. Admittedly that was a smaller dispute, and the local wasn't a bad guy, just someone in such a predicament hard to afford to let go that money, unfortunately it was the same to me, or I'd love to spare him of the embarrassment - I know this story may splash a culture shock.

AFAIK, she did not go the civil dispute route, and she did not hire a civil lawyer. Because I remember she said once "don't question me why I don't sue him" or something similiar: can't find the source now. She is following this thread occasional, may come and clearify. I thought that she is firmly on the police/FBI route.

I will help by repeating the story as another creditor, to any police officer who took icicle's case, once she announces the police officer's email address or contact method (icicle: if you are reading this: you can contact us with PM on this forum to avoid exposing the police officer's email address), be it a U.S. police or U.K. police.

I am not giving up the idea of hiring a civil lawyer. Did you check that we must have a civil lawyer to plead to force liquidating the company? And do you know the price range of such a lawyer? You would be helping a lot other people by some digging, and it is still possible to arrange co-share of the cost. That being said, I will continue to support icicle on police route as well as spend effort going through a civil dispute.

Although true, your view is colored optimistic, or the optimistic expression of a truth. Neutral one: The exchanges' safety was overvalued yesterday. Now they are correctly valued and investors are reconsidering their position.

Isn't it a strange post signature? I saw it all the time and the branding works fine, everyone remembers you, and those who didn't have Chinese fonts in their browers are perhaps so weary of the browser's pleads to install one that they eventually did, which is not bad anyway.

The signature makes no more sense in Chinese other than an animal's name. (?)

I didn't find your post, otherwise I would followed instead of posting a new one, but I am concerned of defining new gox as a non-profit, see my post:
Crowd-fund MtGox, a framework, request for comments
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492058.msg5423121

I have been expecting someone to post an idea of crowd-funding MtGox, and there is one. See:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z590j/a_discussion_on_how_to_salvage_mtgox_customer/

The picture said much and I thank its author (presumably coastermonger). There is one flaws and something missing.

The flaw: it entitles MtGox as a non-profit after the event. Most intended to profit by becoming MtGox customer, without profit, customers would wish to withdraw as soon as the assets reache the old value, this way it may never did, because once it did too much stakes will be drained out/ And in this setting, no one wants to plan beyond "repay all debt" stage, defeating the purpose of a non-profit. You see, 'non-profit' defined what new MtGox is not, but failed to define what it is. It's like saying "my life goal is not money but I don't know what it is". "Community-driven" or "community-owned", or "co-op" are better names.

The missing part: it focuses on the method getting the money back. If MtGox can be made community-owned, it means something bigger than dun for debts. And an organization framework to carry out the necessary steps was not mentioned. Typical complaint: why do I trust you to do this?  Companies are made of people, need organization/people to execute the plan.

I did the following draft framework. Take it as an idea, comment and develop it. Karpeles has been silent, some facts are missing. Edit: now they file bankrupt and we know a bit more. Some say don't do planning before we know all facts. But this way you are always one-step behind Karpeles: he acts, we receive action. The disadvantage of lacking a plan, is that the customers have demands but not control over the situation, the decision is still made by Karpeles and other investors Edit: now liquidator, all of them outside of the comunity. Besides, plan-ahead gives time to chew it.

---

Outline:

Each of the outline items are further explained later. What is already mentioned on the sketch are not repeated (e.g. customers can opt-out with a percentage of stuck fund). This plan assumes Karpeles' cooperation is secured.

• Customers agree to convert credits to shares. The company is redefined a community co-op, by/of/for the community.
• All customers vote for a team of supervisors. The supervisors appoint a CEO.
• Transparency is achieved by: 1) if information can be made directly accessable, it should. 2) Otherwise, all information are accessible to the supervisors who are then inquired by the community. 3) regular audit by 3rd party.
• Cost reduction and business development will be aided by distributed teams around the world.

---

On management and transparency

The community and customers demand transparency. This can be achieved by voting a team of supervisors, tasked to supervise the operation. Presumably, in order to get voted as a supervisor, one has to have existing reputation of honesty, responsibility and knowledge of bitcoin. CEO however have a different set of requirements, not only reliable but also having technology development and business skills. It is the responsibility for the supervisors to exam and appoint a CEO to execute the plans, so that a new CEO would not be the "Wizard of Oz" as Karpeles.

Since we urgently need a team to do the audit of existing record, exam existing situation, a short-term general manager can be appointed by the supervisor to conduct the process, before a formal CEO assignment.

Transparency can be done in layers, like existing public companies. Furthermore the most important and sensative information should be made available online directly. Supervisors works tightly with the team, they are burdened with monitoring the operation and can access all information.

All these management framework must be detailed in a charter

On cost reduction and business development

The new business has to be a global one, using comunity power everywhere and having teams in inexpensive countries like India and China.

Beating Bitstamp/BTC-e will no longer be the goal. Business development can be achieved by helping people having easier access to bitcoin. MtGox should extend from exchange market operator to community service provider, providing ease of access to bitcoin in every means. e.g. co-operation with currency exchange booths to let customers convert their money to accessible bitcoin wallets, and get cash from Bitcoin ATMs available in many countries (e.g. Spain), competing with banks instead of exchange markets. Reducing fee and risk for bitcoin buyers who are not speculating the market, and thus opens a door for new customers. The distributed teams can also seek opportunity in other countries to survive new-coming regluation scrutiny.

Managing a network of teams from everywhere will be a huge challange, but it comes together with the challange of managing a global community co-op. You just have to face it.

On technology

The gap that MtGox is out of business must be as short as possible.

The next-generation trade engine being developed in MtGox should made opensource for community patches and white-hat helps - such help may be rewarded with a share of the new business. If it is close to production use, in-time help to make it mature should be rewarded higher, in order to close the gap.

Opensource the software and opensource (made transparent) the management has to be done together.

On risk management

As the first community co-op, the new business can start an alliance of bitcoin service providers, or form a certain unions, with emergency coin stash collected from members, to aid emergency cases and offer a method of garantee for the public - on the condition that the protected partners should operate with a certain level of transparency.

A seperate team / project be started to pursue lost coins.

On procedure

The first step is to start a website, and invite MtGox users to register. The website owner and building team must clearly state they are not self-appointed to manage the transition. Instead, they are merely providing a platform where demands are heard, and aid the process of voting for a supervisor team, who are trusted to proceed on.

If MtGox is found extremely short of coins, a sum of money should be borrowed from reliable sources, with reasonable interest rate, much of them used to acquire coins to balance the coin/fiat ratio for a healthy start of the new business.

P. S.

Typical reply I expect is "Do you honestly believe Karpeles did lost the coins, and not hiding them?"
I doubt everything Karpeles said. Still, if we have a plan, when we know the truth we are prepared. And a test of willingness of forming a community co-op offer some insights even if turns out not needed.

Another typical reply I expect is "In your eyes, does MtGox look worthy business to buy?" (or "take a business of -740BTC is stupid").
Answer: Customer's fund is there (on the book), they could end up getting nothing. Why not use the opportunity to build something.