Four hours have passed and it is now reading as: 11d 7hr 37m 3s No doubt it will shrink even further to less than 7 days. |
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Are BFL customers being offered a greater discount for a conversion of their pre-order?
Are BFL customers also offered a 25$ discount when they do convert their pre-order to a 'bag o' chips'?
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PuertoLibre -
Maybe my reading skills are getting poor... but did the coupon say that this was as a replacement for functional miners?
It seemed like the offer is a gravy add-on for the crazies... I mean fans... who have demonstrated commitment to the BFL product line.
This wouldn't allow them to shirk their existing liabilities... in fact it would only add to the product liability (i.e. a functional miner AND chips).
Am I mistaken in the understanding that the coupon(s) are to sweeten the deal (an add-on to the earlier offer) of early pre-order customer being offered the chance to convert their early pre-orders to chip deliveries? If what you think is true, then there is no reason for BFL to give these perks for free. Someone shine a light on it. I think our interpretation of this offer is out of whack. |
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Is Puerto wrong? I'd love to see a link to a reasonable explanation for any number of things. I asked directly. The response consistently ignores the companies responsibility while attacking detractors.
Ok, invoke away! If you didn't read Puerto's link and haven't been paying attention... you just might want to take a close look.
Got a link? I think you make references to this: Inaba initiates "get out clause" because the effort may not be profitable. (Due to "Electricity" requirements  ) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.msg2473586#msg2473586Or This: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=236050.0 |
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Thank you PuertoLibre for your tool.
If I understand correctly, and looking at your figures, a 10GH/S device will make 6,7BTC in July, 3,3BTC in August, 1,5BTC in September, and 1,5BTC for the rest of its hashing life. Starting @ 01/07/2013. That equals to 13,2BTC.
2 facts then if I am not mistaken :
-If friedcat sets a price higher than 13,2BTC no miner will get a ROI from Asicminer July Batch. (I expect the new price to be 25BTC/Blade)
-the price of a 10GH/s burnin device made with Avalons chips is around 4.5BTC(correct me if wrong).
-> That means the 10GH/S must be hashing before 16/08/2013 or I will not make ROI on my Avalon chips.
Hopefully(best scenario) they will arrive mid July in the hands of burnin(the chips are supposed to leave factory 4 weeks after the samples).
If it happens that in one week he can send the boards as he says, then I will make 3.6BTC from 22/07/2013 to 16/08/2013 and then 4.42BTC for the rest of its life.
It seems it will be a hot summer if the chips are late...
I'd have to check your numbers to be sure. But that sounds about in the right neighborhood. "-If friedcat sets a price higher than 13,2BTC no miner will get a ROI from Asicminer July Batch. (I expect the new price to be 25BTC/Blade)" Correct, if he doesn't lower the price (or dramatically increase the performance), then effectively you'd be pouring money into a losing proposition. If you have doubts as to what the spreadsheet tells you, then feel free to use very conservative percentages and compare that with actual reality. ====================================== If you have serious doubts, simply plug in the current amount you made in one day as the first date. Then set the percentage to 0%. When the next difficulty correction occurs, take note of the percentage the difficulty went up that week. Take note of what you would have made (in BTC) if things remained the same difficulty up to the very end of the year. Now put in that number (manually) into the first percentage deduction. From that you will know just how much of your yearly earnings you lost in just that immediate change. Every week that passes by, simply plug in the actual percentage of difficulty change and you'll see the years end amount decrease by that certain amount. It will give you an irrefutable insight into what you are losing 1 year down the road. It won't take you, or anyone, that long to figure out...your not going to make back what you thought you would. If your miner costs more than that value, then it is overpriced. You'll never make back the money that you put into it. --------------------- The only way I see people making money off ASICMiner is through their shares. If they grow in value then by the shares price alone, you will make money. But buying the hardware itself is simply like throwing money into a fire pit at this point. The current generation and configuration of ASICs aren't as profitable as people believe they are. |
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What is the purpose of these? Is it a promotional aid? e.g. they expected to sell at $50, so they price to $75, then give away effectively enough "coupons", such that their sale price is $50? Or, are they really giving something back to the early orders - is it possible to get a Cash Alternative? Or, say use 3 coupons, such to get a free chip?
[speculation] They gotta get rid of legal liability from non-delivery. They also got to lower the bar in delivering thousands of 60Gh/s miners. Delivery of all those 60gh/s miners implies a huge cost at half the price. (1300USD vs 2500USD) It'll cost them a good chunk of change after all the screw up and extra bills they have incurred from redesign to redesign. Sending people 4 $ chips instead of their fully completed order saves them a ton of money. They will turn a massive growing loss into a profit or at the very least a break even. Parts and materials cost alot of money. They have the obligation to deliver these units at cost or above their cost. So some scheming guy at BFL probably came up with the plan to simply lower the bar and cost of legal delivery of those units by asking customers if they want them converted to ASIC chips only. It is just chips! How cost effective is that?   Now short sighted dummies are trading in completed miners for a 'bag o' chips'. Thereby taking the obligation of BFL to deliver 60gh/s miners to simply sending them an incomplete unit with promises that someone else will do it. LMAO. BFL, you have an awesome way of doing things. |
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Hello,
Just used BitInstant for the first time. Everything worked out nice and quickly. Unfortunately, in the half hour it took me to run to the store for the money gram, the price of BTC went up a bit. When all was said and done, I ended up with ~0.978 instead of 1.0 BTC. I guess there is no way to make up that difference? I'd hate to do another full order + fees + trip to the store just for that tiny amount.
Thanks.
Your price is not locked in when you create a quote. Regardless, if you think you have an issue that needs correction then it should go to support.bitinstant.com What do you mean it's not locked? Do you mean if we created a quote when 5 BTC equaled 500 USD...if it took 1 day for you to process and the price per BTC drops to 75...then we will get 375USD (before fees)? Our system has a hard deadline of 24 hours, past which customers are entitled to fee refunds and compensation for price changes. The soft deadline (which is what we aim to deliver the majority of orders in) is 1 hour, and between those 2 timeframes we don't make a formal commitment to prices other than market rate as determined by our partners at coinapult. You do realize that this is not directly implied on your website? That is one hell of a bombshell to drop on people. So basically, we don't actually know what rate we are getting until after we get it....? Everything about the BitInstant website leads a person to believe they are going to get a fixed transaction (1 BTC for a certain amount of USD) as soon as finalized or as soon as it is paid in full. You'd better make it more obvious that prices are honored when executed rather than when paid. (huge variance right there) Anyway: Order: df07ed15-e31f-48be-9d0f-da85a3a59c58 There was some hickups with my order getting processed. Apparently customer service alerted me that the blockchain took its sweet time to confirm my payment. Even though I made the payment a few seconds after receiving the BitInstant address several days ago. You can check the timestamp to confirm when the transfer was made. My order is still in limbo and I am definitely invoking the 24 hours clause. (fee free) |
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Hello,
Just used BitInstant for the first time. Everything worked out nice and quickly. Unfortunately, in the half hour it took me to run to the store for the money gram, the price of BTC went up a bit. When all was said and done, I ended up with ~0.978 instead of 1.0 BTC. I guess there is no way to make up that difference? I'd hate to do another full order + fees + trip to the store just for that tiny amount.
Thanks.
Your price is not locked in when you create a quote. Regardless, if you think you have an issue that needs correction then it should go to support.bitinstant.com What do you mean it's not locked? Do you mean if we created a quote when 5 BTC equaled 500 USD...if it took 1 day for you to process and the price per BTC drops to 75...then we will get 375USD (before fees)? |
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I already was saying when bfl failed to deliver the first time that ebay will be offering asics at 10th of original retail price. Thats the time to buy not a penny more.
Those who hold longest will probably get it the cheapest. But will it be worth it by then? <shrug> |
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This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective. Fallacy. Just because you can run a profitable venture with 60 gold mining pick axes does not mean you "automatically will" as a company. You might wish to sell it to others who will put it to that end use. A real world example is ASICMiner. When their blades were profitable they seemingly couldn't house all of the blades they produced at their farm. They sold units and/or ran them until they could grow and expand their mining farm. They turned to selling them to fund their operations. ====================== Either way, the Logic (if you want to call it that) that BlackArrow uses is broken in such an obvious way...it's not even funny. You can't sell mining equipment above what it actually produces in a reasonable period of time. It would entirely defeat the purpose of mining. Is there something in the drinking water these days or is it me?The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic. A argument that does not apply. BlackArrow is not developing anything. They are simply cloning hardware where all the work has been done. Their expended effort is minimal compared to what the Avalon Team had to put into it. They literally have it put in front of them on a silver platter. Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
That is some very concerning bullshit you are posting there. I made plenty profit. Again, is there something in the drinking water that I should know about? Do you people even think before you type? Sorry, but seriously. Your arguments are usually right on the spot, but this is not the case. ASIC miner hardware is hugely overpriced and doesn't allow any kind of ROI, so you are actually confirming what I'm saying with your example. This is why I mentioned in my post it was "Past Tense". You probably have made plenty of profit with an Avalon batch 1, as you were an investor: Avalon needed your money to develop and manufacture its units, there were no guarantees no prototypes whatsoever, the delivery was expected +3 months after payment, and for all these reasons batch 1 customers/investors were offered such a good deal. This is true. But there are/were contradictory statements from Team Avalon. (depending on how you read into it) On the one hand, they said: --If they failed to produce, then they would refund everyone. Though how do you do that if you don't dip into pre-order funds? How do you refund someone if you consume the cash? (Business insurance of some type?) --At Bitcoin 2013 Yifu (from Team Avalon) made mention that they used crowd sourcing. Though he wasn't specific on what he meant by that. (infer as needed) Again, you are confirming my point with your example. Nobody is going to sell you immediately available money minting machines for less money they will likely mint, unless you have a rare case where a company's production capabilities are vastly superior to their deployment capabilities. Even in that case, as per ASIC miner, they will try to price the units so selling them will be at least as profitable as mining with them (as ASIC miner did), making ROI unlikely for the customer. A properly funded company doesn't need "crowd sourcing". Usually they will go to 1 or more investor(s), pitch the idea, and if the the VC thinks it is viable they take most of the risk to get a product to market. When the product is fully developed, then they put it on sale. (of course most bitcoin companies are shady at best...keep that in mind!) So the exception (the bitcoin community) is not actually the rule. The current crop of companies are all (one might say BFL isn't but I am extremely skeptical) based on crowd sourcing. So they push the risk unto their buyers. ---------------------- To get to the heart of your argument, I think a company can sell shovels to miners without charging the weight of the shovel in gold. Or They can charge the shovels weight in gold and thereby burn all the potential customers that are stupid enough to buy the shovels at that price. (bad business model!) That's what we are going to get with ASIC, we better get used to it.
We don't have to get used to it. We can change it. If you point it out to the dummies of the world that they don't have to be financially raped at the online counter, then people will wise up. Companies like BlackArrow who want to sell a Shovel Clone® will be annoyed by people like me warning people about the financial rape. People like BlackArrow will either stop the financial rape at the counter, or close their doors down. So far, it looks like they chose to close their doors. In another thread, a member by the name of Yantis wanted to sell 3 or 4 of his 17 or 18 Avalons. Now everyone knew the price was absurd (250 BTC per Avalon), but did they know by how much? Well a graphic or two later and all illusions were wiped clean. The seller wasn't comfortable in selling his Avalons for far less, so he seemingly called it quits. He himself did not honestly seem to know how much or how little his own Avalon were projected to make in the near future. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=234614.0He asked for the template so he could evaluate his own circumstance. -------------------------- ASICs can be sold at sane prices. There is nothing stopping it from happening. It is entirely beneficial for Mining hardware companies to sell their hardware at profitable (to the buyer) rates. Doubly so, if they are merely a straightforward clone maker. Once a specific mining platform is no longer profitable to produce or sell (by either buyer or seller) there needs to be a model to replace it. Not keep selling it at a price point that benefits the seller and dooms the buyer. We don't mine BitCoins so we can pass our wealth on to the clone manufacturer.  |
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This is what you have with ASIC.
You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective. Fallacy. Just because you can run a profitable venture with 60 gold mining pick axes does not mean you "automatically will" as a company. You might wish to sell it to others who will put it to that end use. A real world example is ASICMiner. When their blades were profitable they seemingly couldn't house all of the blades they produced at their farm. They sold units and/or ran them until they could grow and expand their mining farm. They turned to selling them to fund their operations. ====================== Either way, the Logic (if you want to call it that) that BlackArrow uses is broken in such an obvious way...it's not even funny. You can't sell mining equipment above what it actually produces in a reasonable period of time. It would entirely defeat the purpose of mining. Is there something in the drinking water these days or is it me?The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic. A argument that does not apply. BlackArrow is not developing anything. They are simply cloning hardware where all the work has been done. Their expended effort is minimal compared to what the Avalon Team had to put into it. They literally have it put in front of them on a silver platter. Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.
That is some very concerning bullshit you are posting there. I made plenty profit. Again, is there something in the drinking water that I should know about? Do you people even think before you type? Sorry, but seriously. |
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You are obviously not in hardware business and you are obviously unaware of the prices involved in running one. Also you are unaware of the cost of manufacturing an Avalon.
FYI we did not threw our toys nor shut down our venture we just came to the conclusion that it is more profitable to mine with the Avalon clones ourselves than making a profit by selling them to customers.
Simple as this.
If what you said was true (in any shape, form or way) then Avalon units are no longer sellable. Avalon was able to build the prototypes and units with less than 1/6 of what you are charging. So either your sourcing for parts is absurdly high (and therefore you shouldn't be in business) or you are making it seem as if you can't lower your prices. Since I didn't fall off the turnip truck and have an Avalon that was produced with less than a 6th of what your offering costs....with all sorts of real development costs added...that means you are giving out a lie. I just found out you are still selling FPGA's to folks. Man, not even BFL sells FPGA's anymore. |
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He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.
Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September? Great advice! I am pointing out that the days when bitcoins were pouring from mining into peoples pockets are over. Everyone should just adjust to this. Thats probably the dumbest thing I have seen today. If your clone won't produce a profit at your particular price point, then you are the one who has to adjust your prices. Period. |
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BFL has lowered the cost of their ASIC by almost half.
Perhaps it is time for Avalon to slash prices?
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He is planning to buy the currently available chips coupons in the hopes that someone else will pay him MORE to get the BFL chips sooner than 100 days.
If anything, sellers should make him pay through the nose, or just resell it themselves at a profit.
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I was wondering how long it would take you to respond Puerto. Even faster than I had imagined.
The question is, did you like what I took away from it? |
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As a thank you to our customers for being patient with us as we move towards fulfilling our shipping we are instituting a chip credit program for all pre-orders prior to April 1st, 2013 (Including orders already delivered). This program will allocate a $25 discount per chip up to the number of chips you currently have on order. For example, if you have a Single SC on order, you will receive a $25 credit per chip for 16 chips (Meaning 16 chips can be purchased for $50 each). The chip count for each unit is as follows:
5 GH/s / Jalapeno: 2 chips
25/30 GH/s Miner: 8 chips
50/60 GH/s Miner: 16 chips
500 GH/s Miner: 128 chips
1.5 TH Minirig: 384 chips
Every customer with a current pre-order dated prior to April 1st, 2013 will receive a chip credit for the number of chips/units they have pre-ordered. What this means is that you will be able to purchase raw chips from us for $50 instead of $75 per chip, up to the number of chips you have credit for. We realize that not all of our customers are interested in or have the desire to make use of the chips themselves. To that end, you will be able to sell your chip credit to other people who may be interested in or have the ability to make use of the chips directly. Jokingly Translated: Please, god oh please! Accept our offer to send you chips instead, it is fooking unprofitable for us to meet our 60Gh/s miner goals. We'd rather lower the bar and send you just the chips. We promise we aren't hiding any facts from you which would make this situation a different kind of plea. I promise....let us off the hook. Take your chips and go find someone to put it together. Here, a 25$ discount. We need to really shirk this responsibility. We would be in a hole financially if went sent these all out. So take your dirty chips and GO! Don't ever come back. (ok, a little over dramatic...but that is what crossed my mind)  Joking Caption: "We will even put it in a doggie bag for you...."For our very earliest customers, the first three months of orders (June 23rd to September 23rd orders) will receive 2x the value of the chip credits. For example, a 60 GH/s miner will be worth 32 chips in credit, a Jalapeno will give a 4 chip credit. Jokingly Translated: My god! Take our bloody 4$ chips! (for eh, 50$?) I beg you! Take our damn offer, we need to cut our liability by getting you to agree ASAP! Right here, right now! We don't want you to sue our asses for our huge delay! Seriously! We need to get this monkey off our back immediately. Please, please let us send you a "Bag o' BFL chips"®? Pretty please?! We promise that you will find someone else to put it together!? Someone far more competent than we..."probably"? </Shirk Responsibility> </Shirk Legal Liability> </Sign here> </Invoke Inaba Escape Clause>You should see your chip credit code(s) in your account shortly, and you may do with them as you wish at that time. Jokingly Translated: Take it and go, you dirty apes! There is a 100 chip minimum purchase, so if you are acquiring codes, please be sure to understand that you will need to order a minimum of 100 chips. Jokingly Translated: We still want/need to make money off you, you know! Terms: While we do not have the facilities or the ability to facilitate chip transfers directly, the chip credit codes are transferable from one person to another and we do not limit the resale or transfer of the chip credit codes. The customer is responsible for doing their due diligence when buying, selling or trading the codes, so please be sure to only trade with trusted, verified individuals. Codes can not be refunded, returned or canceled once they have been used or transferred. Butterfly Labs will not be responsible for what a user does with their codes and we are only providing the discount to verified, paid pre-existing pre-orders. Once codes have been redeemed and the payment process has begun, if you do not complete the payment, the codes will be invalid and can not be refunded or returned. Jokingly Translated: Trade amongst yourselves, but if anyone scams ye'...it ain't our problem. We just give out coupons and shirk responsibility...11 months...later? Source: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/3272-customer-appreciation-chip-credit-program.html |
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I am still waiting for my payment via Paypal. I am almost going to Day 5.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Coina--- or zipzap whatever..
Order number: df07ed15-e31f-48be-9d0f-da85a3a59c58
I expect a deposit without any fees!
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