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Changes that have occurred since October 2012:
BFL has lost,
--They lost 1Gh/w (proposed) advantage.
--They lost their speedy delivery promise.
--They lost the respect of a portion of their product(s) user base.
--They have increased their prices while reducing the performance on their various product lines.
--They have lost their size advantage in an ever increasing manner across their product lines.
--They have reduced the frequency of communication with their customers and potential customers.
etc.
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If a company was in such dire financial straits as you are alluding to, why would they force a refund on a customer?
Probably because they didn't consider the negative legal and public-relation repercussions, or choose to deal with the matter civilly ? I'm not talking about any of the other potential effects. I'm talking about at a strictly financial level: If a company is about to run out of money (as k9quaint would allege) WHY would they be giving any money back? [Speculation] It would be Liability. Keeping old orders on the books is a liability. Replacing old orders with new orders eliminates the long term liability. There is no incentive in such a scenario to treat people decently. The worse you treat them the better off you are. It also allows you an opportunity to change your prices on old orders. Same hardware, new price. --------------- Only if a person is simple minded enough would they not see that the chessboard can be reset if your are astute enough. And if you plug in the scenario I am depicting it makes perfect sense why various actors are taking the attitudes they are assuming. If you think in a simple manner, then a person wouldn't understand. Keep in mind a money printing machine is being sold. The customer can be treated like walking shit and it won't matter. Tommorrow they will be right back at the order window. --------------- The only scenario where such a strategy fails is when you: A) Aren't able to deliver. A1) Are able to deliver but not capable of doing it while the customer see's a profitable scenario. A2) Are able to deliver but the date that you deliver is too late in the profitability curve and your customer never sees a satisfactory profit...thereby limiting future sales of your own product. (Your loss, IS my loss) B) Are sued to such an extent by old customers that remain, that it starts a collapsing precedent. B1) Cause a chain reaction of backlash by general customer dissatisfaction. (Customer comes back to the order window, but out of spite or irate sentiments, causes new problems which may eventually drown the company) C) Another competitor delivers similar products with similar capabilities, making your own products less attractive. C1) Another competitor saturates the market with their own products by being capable of meeting the demand for money printing machines. C2) A competitor provides an upgrade path through their products. Leading the attractiveness of your own products to be marginalized. D) <Etc> |
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The disturbing thing about these group buys for Jupiter, is that they make it very easy for the OP to run away with equipment that is not theirs.
I have more than enough money to buy up several Jupiters but after looking at these group buys...I get the paranoid feeling alot of scamming is going to go down in the near future.
The escrow is nice and all. But it doesn't stop anyone from walking away with the hardware at the end of it all.
Lets say the OP decides he doesn't want to share his profits. What is to stop him from reneging on the entire deal, keeping his/your machines and then continuing mining as if nothing ever happened?
================
What is the worst that can happen? A nick gets a scammer tag?
Even if it is hosted at KNC there is no obligation @ KNC to reprimand the owner for falling through with his obligations. KNC is just going to tell irate group buyers that it is an issue between them and the buyer.
There is very little leverage in this situation keeping the OP's of these threads honest. Those that have reputation actually face some minimal risk. The others with brand new accounts quite literally have no incentive to be honest.
Edit: Look at Adi's account, less than 10 posts.
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@ Kernel32
Congrats on the negotiations. You are (IMO) the most viable thread regarding group buys for BFL. You deserve more than one round of applause. May the chips flow freely through your group buy. Good luck!
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At K9, since you are having some trouble with ThatDGuy. Here is a helpful link that should give you more of a boost in your argument. Just because BFL says they have shipped through a certain date, does not mean they have actually fulfilled all units up to that date. Proof?: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3122-shipping-but-not-your-full-order.html?Master of illusions? The false appearance of having delivered everything (just jally of course) up to a certain date is...just that...an illusion. You have to give it to "them", they sure know how to do a good mind job on their customers. (In my opinion only) If it weren't for K9 and his facts, you'd have almost have believed it were true... |
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My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.
It says, shit is about to hit the fan.
Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!
You are quite bad at generating FUD. Good FUD is slick and subtle. And if it is good FUD you would only need to say it once and it will do its magic. As K9 mentioned earlier, Who needs FUD? The truth is much more potent than any "FUD" could ever be. Moving beyond that, the information that lead to me writting that warning post has no presence on this thread. You don't know what lead to those words or the warning. Don't you think I would have posted it and described the situation clearly so you'd understand "a FUD" scenario? Why didn't I write more than three lines? Consider that. I want you to be utterly dismissive of it. I posted a simple warning without any context. I imagine eventually that piece of information will become widely available. Though honestly, I don't see how it would actually reach the forum. I can only imagine that BFL would have to post it themselves as a notice to it's customers, then again I doubt they actually would as it might hurt confidence in deliveries. Anyway, I didn't post more info because I want you to hang on. In this situation, I want you to be "stuck". No "FUD" is necessary, you just don't know what I am going on about. Dogie by accident or intention hit upon it. Though I deleted any references so that people would not know what my statements were about. I posted it as subtle and without context as I could. Because I know that when it actually hits you or impacts your order(s) it will be too late for you to actually do anything about it. You'll just have to wait, along with everyone else. Anyone who has gotten out "by now" has already done so for the right reasons. Different things motivated them to act on it. Everyone else still left in the order queue is left to gamble their order in whatever way the outcome becomes. Your total desperation to attack BFL makes it almost comical. Now that BFL is shipping in volume it makes you look quite desperate. You know, it almost sounds like you are worried about something. Don't worry, just be happy!   Edit: Everything will be alright in "2 weeks"®, I promise. |
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They are sending out equipment now, despite the longing to hold on to the idea that they aren't. If BFL's order system suddenly had zero orders and tons of refunds, my guess is that they would continue to allow new orders (where they get money right away) in while they send the refunds out. People are waiting already, you can be assured they would be waiting in the odd and unrealistic case presented. This is more than sufficient time to make up the difference, and then some - as BFL could now charge more for each individual unit due to the current market forces, as has been illustrated.
1) 93% of their orders (when measured by hash-rate here http://bfl.ptz.ro/) are in singles and mini-rigs. By BFL's own admission none of those have shipped yet. 2) By BFL's own admission, the 1st of 11 months of Jalapeno pre-orders have shipped. That is roughly 9% of 7% which is 0.63% of the hash rate that they owe their customers. 3) By BFL's own admission, they do not have working singles or mini-rigs that they can ship and there is no firm ETA on when 93% of their pre-orders can actually begin shipping. If the bulk of single and mini-rig sales cancel but the bulk of Jalapeno's stay, BFL could see $6-7 million dollars suddenly vanish from their coffers. They would still need weeks to ship all the Jalapeno's they owe. Shit, you and your dirty facts! The folks at BFL went through all this trouble to make an anthill into a mountain and here you are giving us facts that this mountain is only 12 inches across. (Master BFL Shill) |
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My crystal ball is shuddering terribly.
It says, shit is about to hit the fan.
Horrorscope of the day, if you are in, get out. Quickly!
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@ askit
There are so many false threads in your post that I don't even know where to begin. Have you been reading for the last few months?
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I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue. There was, It was one of Josh's main selling points for their devices. He often commented on how the devices were profitable at different ranges of difficulty and *were* power efficient. Even up until recently he still talks about it. Both in Dollars and in BTC. So no matter how you shake it, there was several discussions on profitability. To pretend there was not is to be misinformed. |
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Could have been a bunch of horseshit, but there are dudes on this forum that are trying to do good via BTC.
Bicknellski (I think) helps a Montessouri school in Indonesia.
I recall someone with a signature line about building homes for the homeless, with BTC.
I hope these folks are helped out by the BFL "charity".
LOL! Do more than help. I own the school. I don't think we need BTC from BFL to keep going but yes there are certainly many charities that could further bitcoin and altcoins in new places. I was sort of tongue and cheek asking for BFL donations. Our school will be building miners with students. The proceeds from the mining go into at scholarship fund for needy students and non-profit micro loan foundation that our students will administrate and then use to reach out in our local area to needy families. You have my deep respect. What you are doing with BitCoin is in so many way, what a real charity is supposed to be about. Building, not just handing out money for the sake of a tax break. (Note: If people think a BitCoin is worth alot in Dollars, imagine how much it is worth in other nations where the income stream for the average person is well below what people enjoy in their home nation.) The thing as a Montessorian and this whole affair is the whole inequity and lack of ethical behavior at every turn and it is shocking given the reality that a 6 year old can and will choose right from wrong each and every day given the right environment. At this point supporting BFL is not really productive for anyone but those with a vested interest in getting mining rigs they were promised delivered. Sickening they have waited this long and it is sickening they will continue to wait.
Honesty and ethics can be part of any environment... all one has to do is choose to be ethical and honest it is simple as that.
In light of your efforts, your words carry significant weight. BFL? Well, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it never ceases being a pig. (In my opinion) |
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Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.
At 1.9 Billion, what is your profitability index? By the way, I checked your claim, at 5Gh/s you are only making...15cents per day @ 1.9 Billion difficulty. Obviously...I call BS. That is not even including the PC that runs the hardware. You may need to redo your calculations. http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ |
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Well ... I will say I find this thread amusing for a different reason. It's an argument about what they should do with the 1000BTC - rather than many posts before in other threads about saying they wouldn't do anything  Personally, I do think it's great that they are giving it away, even if it isn't to those that specific people want it to be given. Hell I'd say yeah why give any of it to Luke-Jr - I can't stand the guy - he is indeed a low life with an agenda.But that's their choice ... IMO. It doesn't matter who they give it to, there will be some who claim there are others more deserving of it. But as for actually giving it away, there certainly is some amount of it that it has happened with so far, and it is easy to see the amount and where it is going by looking at that address You may be a great programmer, but you are a terrible human being. Who knew you could buy people over so easily? One Jally is all that it took to make someone bend. I understand Kano bending to the weight of a jally because he really does only seem to be out to cover his own ass in his own statements. I see it as a mere byproduct that his programming skills are put to good use in the BitCoin Community. Luke though, as a Christian I can't help but wonder. It took "that little" to make you bend... Make sure when you both throw stones at each other that it doesn't bounce off your heads and right back at you both. Very Disappointing. ------------------------- The only one who has come out clean despite all the "donations" and "gift" giving through programming was cklovias. The funny thing is people call him by his name Con, yet his actions are (as observed) nothing but above par in every respect. Kano do me a favor, and never show up in the same thread as cklovias. You'd tarnish his name just by being present. Thanks. |
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Apparently , according to reddit; 50 BTC has gone to Luke-Jr's charity...
I am literally laughing in the background... |
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Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.
At 1.9 Billion, what is your profitability index? |
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Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.
Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...
God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't BFL massively rewarding purchasers of Bitforce 5 (previously Jalapenos) at the expense of people who have Little Single/Single/Minirigs ordered.
-Consider that some early Bitforce 5 recipients who may have orders placed after LS/S/MR orders have been mining for up to a month now
-Consider that BFL is now allowing optional upgrading from 5GH to 7GH for the Bitforce 5 - 2GH/s for $100 or so which is much less than the same power from ASICMiner. LS/S/MR have not been given the option to buy any additional power.
-Bitforce 5/7 early recipients may possibly see a return of their initial BTC payment if they ordered in the first week. LS/S/MR owners with equally early orders will have decreasing chance for that return as each day passes.
I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.
July Bitforce 5 orders are now shipping (unknown if shipping with 7GH upgrade option as yet) and still not a single LS/S/MR owner from 6/23/12 has received a working unit.
Probably because they understand that 5Gh/s are about to crap out in terms of profit. Yielding too little means that a very high refund rate is very likely. So it gets the priority, I would speculate. |
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Not that I'm advocating for BFL but..
Lots of rich people do exactly that, basically give money to themselves, but a separate tax entity. All of which is perfectly legal.
Bill Gates created the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, which he and his wife controlled, and then donated Micro$oft money to it. Essentially, he donated the money to himself, so he still has a say in where the money goes.
Did you really thing Bill Gates was going to give money to anybody but himself?
So did Guggenheim, Carnegie and many others.
It's standard operating procedure in corporate America. It's always a shady, but perfectly legal.
I already know that. That is one of the references I was thinking of when typing out the above posts. |
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