BFL rewarding Jalapeno orders at the expense of LS/S/MR orders

[wrenchmonkey]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers.  

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense!  

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

[jspielberg]

I think the point is that they should be asking LS/S/MR if they would take 5GHs miners as an alternative.  I don't think a single person who ordered an LS/S/MR would have expected that all they wouldn't all be produced at the same time.

My guess is that they would get pretty good uptake and probably even upsells of 7GHs (if offered).

I am strangely optimistic that Metabank will be able to produce their miner as they only have to worry about a single configuration that goes like stink.

[GigaWave]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense! 

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

I'll run with your analogy eve though it's flawed.

I'm not saying stop shipping. I'm saying when the back ordered items become available. Someone that ordered the same item that bubba ordered 2 months ago should not be shipped their order till bubba and everyone else between bubba and dingdons orders is shipped.

Love the comparison between a novelty item, and something that 99% of people purchased as a investment. Have anymore apples you want to compare to oranges?(BTW, mostly rhetorical as it's close to the end of the week and it's unlikely I'll have time to piss away on nonsense) ...Shit that's even a horrible comparison.

[Bicknellski]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers.  

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense!  

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

IF they actually had crap to sell on the shelf? That would be more than fair... that be N O R M A L.

[wrenchmonkey]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense! 

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

I'll run with your analogy eve though it's flawed.

I'm not saying stop shipping. I'm saying when the back ordered items become available. Someone that ordered the same item that bubba ordered 2 months ago should not be shipped their order till bubba and everyone else between bubba and dingdons orders is shipped.

Love the comparison between a novelty item, and something that 99% of people purchased as a investment. Have anymore apples you want to compare to oranges?(BTW, mostly rhetorical as it's close to the end of the week and it's unlikely I'll have time to piss away on nonsense) ...Shit that's even a horrible comparison.

Pick whatever item you want then. Call the Jalpeno the "singing fish" if Amazon only has singing fish in stock, does that mean they can't ship singing fish until they get some other, higher value, product that is backordered back in stock?

The point is, they don't have your hardware in stock. I agree that if they were in stock, they should ship them. But they're not in stock, so it's a moot issue.

The minute the higher-density options become available, they should definitely take precedence over later orders for other products, but in the mean time, reality is here, and it says that the higher density options aren't available yet, so they're only shipping what's available.

This isn't "taking advantage" of anybody. It's dealing with the reality that development is only complete on the least complex product that they have in their lineup. They'd be stupid to ignore orders that they have the capability of fulfilling TODAY.

[bigdude]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

[relm9]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

Plus, when it comes to tech there is usually a slow rollout of the entire product line, rarely are all parts available at once (see graphics cards).

Anyone upset about this really should have hedged their bets and ordered different models from BFL's product line just in case.

BFL is doing the only thing that makes sense here. Yeah, it's not an ideal situation but 1) they can't just sit on the Jalapeno units, and 2) I highly doubt they have enough Jalapeno on hand to allow bigger orders to convert. How would that even be done fairly?

[wrenchmonkey]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

There was, It was one of Josh's main selling points for their devices. He often commented on how the devices were profitable at different ranges of difficulty and *were* power efficient.

Even up until recently he still talks about it. Both in Dollars and in BTC. So no matter how you shake it, there was several discussions on profitability.

To pretend there was not is to be misinformed.

[Askit2]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

There was, It was one of Josh's main selling points for their devices. He often commented on how the devices were profitable at different ranges of difficulty and *were* power efficient.

Even up until recently he still talks about it. Both in Dollars and in BTC. So no matter how you shake it, there was several discussions on profitability.

To pretend there was not is to be misinformed.

If you think back carefully to the pricing and the implication that the initial customers would be profitable and BFL would do its best to make sure of it consider this. BFL priced the initial units at 50% of the price of new units. People paid initially 50% of the price of current units. This doesn't truly guarantee that the initial units will be profitable but it does point towards it being expensive to make them unprofitable. By buying early (ignoring the mistakes and missed deadlines and only comparing to BFL units because BFL can't control anyone else) BFL setup a situation where early adopters would be rewarded with cheaper hardware and the earliest shipping they have been able to provide.

I'm not saying that the higher density people aren't losing some potential profits. They are. But they also have a greater hash density per $ paid upfront as well and although the product isn't available for mass shipment yet when it is there should be a large advantage for the higher density people. Of course it could be a while to ship out the now hotter, higher powered units to the people that paid for them. I am a little amazed that people are shocked that the more complex units are taking longer to get working acceptably.

[PuertoLibre]

@ askit

There are so many false threads in your post that I don't even know where to begin. Have you been reading for the last few months?

[Tehfiend]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

It's not that simple. Profitability depends on the difficulty and exchange rate during the lifespan of a miner so it's very hard to accurately predict. For example if the exchange rate holds at $120/BTC and difficulty increases an average of 15% every 2 weeks, then you would need to receive your jalapeño before difficulty is over 100 million or so to break even.

[hexed]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

in·vest·ment 

/inˈves(t)mənt/

Noun

1.The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.
2.A thing that is worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future.
 

You still have problems comprehending the one fact that these devices are NOTHING like a typical consumer product.  You just don't read or comprehend things well.  These devices ARE an investment because you buy them and they make you money.  Let's put that in perspective so you can understand it.  I'll use the singing fish you love so much.  If I were to go buy a LIMITED EDITION.. only 200 made.. singing fish (let's call him by his name.. Billy Bass).. and you held on to it in its packaging hoping and hopefully after some research.. knowing.. that this thing would increase in price due to its rarity.  If you were buying it to then sell at a later date, it would be an investment... for you.  For a company to care who got #1 billy bass or #200 billy bass is of no concern to them though.  In this situation however, if 200 of them are identical, the difference in price, shipping time, and profitability would not be very different from 1 to 200.  In BFL's case, the amount of time that passes clearly determines how much this investment will pay back.  We are talking about a couple thousand for someone like me, and worse, several 10's of thousands for those who invested a couple of grand.  And for those that actually put in at the beginning, 1K, 2K, 3K, 10K.. those people basically "financially backed" this company when they needed money the most.  You would think with the high risk they had to endure, and the longest wait time (something a April 2013 customer would not understand), that the people who put in first would get the most back on their investment.  If they don't ship their big chip items soon, these jalapenos in the wild are going to seriously affect how much their other clients make.  Once again let me reiterate that these clients are the ones from the beginning.  These are the ones that put some serious money into a company's dream at the time.  If they were April orders, then of course they wouldn't care as much when shipments of one type are going out.  April orders are going to have to wait for a WHILE to get their product.  A person who ordered in June/July could have been receiving their product next week if they had all the working parts in.

And yeah, BFL cannot win right now.. you just said it.  So might as well do the "right" thing over the one that makes them money faster.  Lets be honest... as 100's of people open their Jalapenos and put their reviews up on forums, or videos on youtube, people are going to be putting massive amount back into ordering Butterfly labs.. even if they don't deliver Singles or Mini rigs by then. 

..I guess there is always the possibility that they are not doing well financially.  So many people have said but that is all speculation.  But IF they are not doing well.. I would much rather them get 1000's of jalapenos out if the alternative was them shutting down the doors.

If I had the opportunity I would take 8 Jalapenos for my 40GH/s ordered if it meant I could get my order this month vs next month, or even further out. Some people with 250+GH/s orders.. they would have to manage 50+ Jalapeno devices.  Even though people want their GH asap, I doubt the big orders would put up with having to manage that many devices.

[k9quaint]

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

Customers require a product. BFL did not have them (and is still trying to develop all but one).
The people who put money into BFL were investors just like a kickstarter project. Their money was used to design and prototype the products.
The investors didn't get equity, they only got promises.

[Transisto]

A long time ago BFL decided we would not get what we ordered but instead we'd get an HASHRATE equivalent.

I don't care if they have to ship 300 Jalapenos to match the hashrate of a minirig.
That's the only way for it to be fair.

This or mine with the 300 Jalapeno on behalf of it's owner while the now "1/3" minirigs units are deliverable.

[wrenchmonkey]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

in·vest·ment 

/inˈves(t)mənt/

Noun

1.The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.
2.A thing that is worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future.
 

Everything you buy is an "Investment" that doesn't make you an investor in a company. It makes you an investor in a PRODUCT. Big difference. You're still a customer, unless you have an investment in the company. Learn the difference. It will make this easier for you. If I buy a fleet of Chevy trucks, and use them to make money, I'm not a "Chevy investor", I'm a Chevy customer. Nobody would argue that a fleet of trucks is not an "investment," but nobody would take seriously the assertion that I'm an "investor" in The General Motors Corporation. If I want to be a GM/Chevy investor, I buy STOCK, not their products.

What if I buy a fleet of bulldozers from Caterpillar? Still not an "investor"

You still have problems comprehending the one fact that these devices are NOTHING like a typical consumer product.  You just don't read or comprehend things well.

Bulldozers aren't a "typical consumer product" either. I'm still not a Caterpillar investor.

These devices ARE an investment because you buy them and they make you money.  Let's put that in perspective so you can understand it.  I'll use the singing fish you love so much.  If I were to go buy a LIMITED EDITION.. only 200 made.. singing fish (let's call him by his name.. Billy Bass).. and you held on to it in its packaging hoping and hopefully after some research.. knowing.. that this thing would increase in price due to its rarity.  If you were buying it to then sell at a later date, it would be an investment... for you.  For a company to care who got #1 billy bass or #200 billy bass is of no concern to them though. 

Exactly, they are an investment (just like EVERYTHING you buy). That doesn't make you a BFL investor. In your Billy Bass example you made an investment in the Billy Bass fish. You are not one of Amazon's investors. You're one of Amazon's CUSTOMERS. Get it? If you complained to somebody that you weren't being treated fairly as an "Amazon investor" because they delayed sending you your limited edition singing fish, you'd be laughed out of town.

In this situation however, if 200 of them are identical, the difference in price, shipping time, and profitability would not be very different from 1 to 200.  In BFL's case, the amount of time that passes clearly determines how much this investment will pay back.  We are talking about a couple thousand for someone like me, and worse, several 10's of thousands for those who invested a couple of grand.

That's totally immaterial to the discussion. How much money you could have made if the situation were different is just silly speculation. If they'd already shipped everything, difficulty would have risen sooner as well. Moot point, and again has nothing to do with whether you're one of BFL's "investors". You're a consumer who hoped to get a product earlier in order to make more money with it. Nothing more.

And for those that actually put in at the beginning, 1K, 2K, 3K, 10K.. those people basically "financially backed" this company when they needed money the most.  You would think with the high risk they had to endure, and the longest wait time (something a April 2013 customer would not understand), that the people who put in first would get the most back on their investment.

And they will. Those who receive their orders earlier (earlier orders) will make a higher return than those who order later. There was no gurantee that your profit increase would be exponential, you just presumed it. Everybody who ordered higher density hardware earlier will get their higher density hardware earlier than later higher-density orders.

If they don't ship their big chip items soon, these jalapenos in the wild are going to seriously affect how much their other clients make.  Once again let me reiterate that these clients are the ones from the beginning.  These are the ones that put some serious money into a company's dream at the time.  If they were April orders, then of course they wouldn't care as much when shipments of one type are going out.  April orders are going to have to wait for a WHILE to get their product.  A person who ordered in June/July could have been receiving their product next week if they had all the working parts in.

No, these are people who put money into their own dreams. You (along with the others) saw dollar signs for yourself, not for BFL. You placed a pre-order for your high-density BFL hardware, because you wanted to be first in line to receive high-density BFL hardware. And you still have your same spot in line to receive that product. It sucks that it was delayed, but you're still getting EXACTLY what you paid for. A spot in line for a product, as well as having paid only half what others who order(ed) later than you are paying. I understand that it's frustrating that it's taken so much longer to develop than anticipated, but again, this has nothing to do with the Jalpeno orders or Jalpeno customers. and it doesn't make you a "BFL investor".

I have no way of verifying it, but I do believe that BFL has stated from the beginning that pre-order money has not been touched. If that's true, your case is even weaker. Pre-orders for a product a company is making does not make you a "financial backer" of a company. Financial backers assume fiduciary risk with the company, they don't receive a product in return for their money, and they aren't entitled to refunds.

And yeah, BFL cannot win right now.. you just said it.  So might as well do the "right" thing over the one that makes them money faster.  Lets be honest... as 100's of people open their Jalapenos and put their reviews up on forums, or videos on youtube, people are going to be putting massive amount back into ordering Butterfly labs.. even if they don't deliver Singles or Mini rigs by then.

What's "right" is to fulfill all of their obligations as quickly as possible. They have the ability to currently fill a large portion of their obligations by shipping the orders that they have the hardware on hand to fill. Anything less than that would be foolish, bad for the company, bad for their ACTUAL investors, and bad for their customers (which is the category you fall into). If it had happened to be the hardware that YOU have on order that they'd completed first, and they were sitting on it waiting to complete development on all of their other products before shipping YOURS, you'd be pitching a fit. This whole "me, me, me, me" mentality is so transparent. You only want them to do what directly benefits YOU the most, and anything else will net outcry.

..I guess there is always the possibility that they are not doing well financially.  So many people have said but that is all speculation.  But IF they are not doing well.. I would much rather them get 1000's of jalapenos out if the alternative was them shutting down the doors.

It's a possibility, but not altogether likely. I think that it's in their best interest to get as many of their products out the door as possible, regardless of a current financial situation. If, indeed, they are needing more money, it would seem that filling a large number of orders would entitle them to preorder money for those orders that has apparently been stashed away untouched. Perhaps opening up more capital to invest in the development of YOUR ordered products. More money for BFL quite likely will result in faster completion of the development of their other products that they're still working on.

If I had the opportunity I would take 8 Jalapenos for my 40GH/s ordered if it meant I could get my order this month vs next month, or even further out. Some people with 250+GH/s orders.. they would have to manage 50+ Jalapeno devices.  Even though people want their GH asap, I doubt the big orders would put up with having to manage that many devices.

As I said before, I can understand your point here, but I don't know that it would actually translate into the bulk of high-density people getting their orders any faster, and it's highly likely that it would actually delay it further. This all depends on how close they are to completing development on their other products, but if shipping several thousand more jalpenos pushes everybody in the queue back several more months, vs completing and shipping high-density hardware, en masse, sooner, you might be shooting yourself in the foot by demanding that low volume/high density orders be converted into high volume/low density orders.

[Askit2]

@ askit

There are so many false threads in your post that I don't even know where to begin. Have you been reading for the last few months?

The statements by BFL saying they would have a policy to back the miners that ordered from them was in regards to statements like this one.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg967061#msg967061
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg967182#msg967182
Sadly the mods chopping the thread into pieces left me less then able to locate the exact wording on the profitability statement.

Just some food for thought.
BFL single Preorder 500$
BFL Single Non Preorder 800$
BFL Single Missed Numbers price 600$

I didn't pay attention to the mini rig. It seems like there was a price advantage.

SC units
Preorder early $149 Jalapeno
Working price $274 Jalapeno well 5GHs miner

Now this doesn't prove that BFL intends to help make sure early adopters are profitable. It does show on the two I paid attention to a track record of making sure that early adopters are given lower prices. Yes delays cost money, Yes exchange rates are better now, Yes people are still waiting for nearly year old orders.

Yes I have stated things you think are wrong. Likely you will point out no one paid 800$ for the FPGA single. Missed hashrate cut back the price to keep $/hash in line with their (BFL) post order ratio.

Could all of this be coincidence. Sure. I believe more people would order units at the old prices then at the new prices. I also belive that by making the price higher once the chips worked BFL did in a way lock people into their orders. I choose to see the positive aspect of the whole thing. I choose to see the price increase making later orders less profitable then early orders.

[Morblias]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

[wrenchmonkey]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

There was a lot that happened that they didn't want to happen. Things were delayed WAY more than they intended. Back during the BFL pre-order days, they were they only game in town, so shipping out ASIC units to a few people would have really skewed the market. Well, nothing went as anticipated, and now there are MANY ASICs out in the wild, already driving difficulty.

Things definitely went badly for BFL's plans, but we're to the point where we're talking about what's best for them to do NOW. No doubt things were handled poorly on their part. Their only chance at this point, to make things right, is to get as much hardware to as many customers as they can. They didn't anticipate requiring twice as many chips on their machines (hence not anticipating a cost increase). They didn't anticipate being delayed to the point where other ASIC developers beat them to market, they didn't anticipate the higher-density solutions giving them so much more trouble in development, they didn't anticipate missing the mark on power consumption, etc, etc. We all agree they did a poor job in planing things. And were way more optimistic about things than they realistically ought to have been.

But the question is what is the best course of action from this point? I think they're taking the best course of action that they can, with how totally off the mark current reality is from their original vision.

[allten]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

There was a lot that happened that they didn't want to happen. Things were delayed WAY more than they intended. Back during the BFL pre-order days, they were they only game in town, so shipping out ASIC units to a few people would have really skewed the market. Well, nothing went as anticipated, and now there are MANY ASICs out in the wild, already driving difficulty.

Things definitely went badly for BFL's plans, but we're to the point where we're talking about what's best for them to do NOW. No doubt things were handled poorly on their part. Their only chance at this point, to make things right, is to get as much hardware to as many customers as they can. They didn't anticipate requiring twice as many chips on their machines (hence not anticipating a cost increase). They didn't anticipate being delayed to the point where other ASIC developers beat them to market, they didn't anticipate the higher-density solutions giving them so much more trouble in development, they didn't anticipate missing the mark on power consumption, etc, etc. We all agree they did a poor job in planing things. And were way more optimistic about things than they realistically ought to have been.

But the question is what is the best course of action from this point? I think they're taking the best course of action that they can, with how totally off the mark current reality is from their original vision.

Best course of action? Regarding the OP, it is simple really. Give customers the option to change their orders to jalepenos while maintaining their place in line.

I had ordered several jalapenos but then I was reassured by BFL staff that the bigger stuff was shipping at the same time and they gave an option to Upgrade.
That was several months ago.
Well, now give us an option to downgrade. Seems like a no brainier.

They are probably too stressed out to try to do any thing for their customers other than just shove product out the
door with little regard to the issue in the OP.
The fact they "appear" to still be holding things together and trying to get product to customers is really amazing. I'll give 'em that.