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2861  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 10:30:15 AM
Want to see what Avalon said about their [BFL] Fab production "a while ago"?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/500-josh-plz-give-us-some-comments-about.html

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/500-josh-plz-give-us-some-comments-about-3.html#post37045

Take a look at the first page where a well known quote from Team Avalon is cited in the first post, then zoom forward "into the future" towards the end. As Josh recently gave the thread a backhand comment for someone bringing it back to bite him in the ass.

The Truth hurts!

Wow.

Even INTEL does not have this kind of capacity. Neither does AMD. They produce, then test, and if things suck, they throw it all away or make a "budget version" of a downclocked chip. If you were ever wondering where these shitty graphics cards came from that nobody wants... take a guess Wink


It's the unicorn blood. Definitely...the unicorn blood.

Too bad the unicorn blood was way over rated. It failed to help the process along in the end...Reality and Physics got in the way of the ritual sacrifices.
2862  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: theASIC miner availible! on: June 02, 2013, 10:27:43 AM
Man, the scams are rolling right in the door today.

Tons of newbies want people to fork over 10's of thousands of dollars.

If theASIC is real, much love to em'. If not, join the crowd.
2863  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: BFL Group buy - flowdab on: June 02, 2013, 10:15:36 AM
Hi everyone. I am purchasing a bit over a 100 chips from BFL and thought I would open this up to a group buy. I don't have a lot of reputation but would be willing to work this out via escrow through John K. or really whatever the group thinks is reasonable. I'm really not too picky but I am  purchasing these A.S.A.P. so I will likely close the group buy on Monday at 11:00 A.M.

Quote
Butterfly Labs will begin selling bulk chips to individuals and companies starting in June, 2013.  Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed.  We will be providing reference documentation, reference design/schematics, and foundry receipt/documentation.

Chips will be graded and priced as follows:
Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip
Grade D: 13 Engines or less - $83/chip

Chip orders will require 50% down and 50% upon order delivery.  Payment can be made via BTC (preferred) or bank wire.

Advantages of BFL chips:
1/2 the power usage per GH as the closest competitor
1/10th the silicon area per GH as the closest competitor (Very high performance density)
You can use off the shelf heat sinks depending on your chip layout due to FCBGA package vs custom underside heat sinks as required on some QFN packages. You don't have to design and manufacture heat sinks!
Proven design currently operating in the field and ready to go.

I will be contacting John. K after I finish this message to see if he will be escrow. I am located in the US and will ship wherever is needed. Shipping and customs will be paid for by the buyer. I will charge a handling fee of .1 BTC fee per order of 50 chips or less and a .2 BTC per order of 50 chips or more.

I will be purchasing Grade A chips. If you would like to purchase other chips, that should be fine as it is my understanding that the chip minimum is not required for each separate Grade.

I will update this message as information becomes available. As I stated earlier, this will be purchased sometime on Monday so time is of the essence.

Cheers!

flow


I'm cancelling this group buy because I really just don't want to deal with all the shit that apparently comes with trying to help people out. I'm taking my ball and going home. Hopefully you can get some chips via the other group buy which is listed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=223335.0
Keep in mind that MrTeal is well regarded and has a higher reputation on these forums.

That guy knows what he is doing.
2864  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: BFL Group buy - flowdab on: June 02, 2013, 06:57:52 AM


+1

So many < 20 post accounts floating around...i wonder why  Roll Eyes
There be sharks!
2865  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: BFL Group buy - flowdab on: June 02, 2013, 06:45:51 AM
It goes without saying you're going to need a top end escrow.

Of course. That is why I thought of JohnK.
After you think of him. Make sure to ACTUALLY CONTACT HIM...and get his approval first.

With a newbie such as yourself (or under a sock account) it tickles the mind that you may just be augmenting your own order using others funds. That is the risk.

Take the matters of Escrow seriously please. Because I seriously don't see how Escrow is protecting anyone in this specific situation.

==========================

Scenario: John takes the money and orders the chips on your behalf. But then the order still goes to YOU and YOUR HOME Address. At that point it's all on faith that you will actually do your part and ship out the allotted chips to people who pitched in.

I can imagine why JohnK would be hesitant to start being the hub of these Bulk orders. You seriously need reputation references and/or need to tell us where you are in the world so people actually know where to "visit you" if you default on your obligations.

If you default, your gonna take JohnK good name with it.

You need to redo your intro. I could have slapped together a better intro....

Edit: Are you doing a 50% down payment and that is why you are doing escrow? Or are you aiming for the bulk discount at a higher dollar value?
2866  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders on: June 02, 2013, 05:51:51 AM
MLM means Multi-Level Marketing. In case anyone is wondering.

This is not an accusation, simply a definition for those that do not know what an MLM scheme might be.



They are considered bad because the resellers at the very bottom never make their money back. Only those at the start of the pyramid make their money back and then some.
2867  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders on: June 02, 2013, 05:01:02 AM
How to spot a Liar (Video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=100s (Intro)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=194s (Conmen can cost people money and more...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=274s (Liars by type)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=337s (Crosses the boundaries of...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=370s (When it starts...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=427s (Detecting the Lie...The signs and behaviors)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=485s (Non-contracted Denial) <-- Not a clear and definitive Lie at face value. Being vague!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=525s (Body Language) <-- Tell tale signs, behaviors and patterns of behaviors. (including written text, details expressed and subject matters addressed and/or avoided when addressing an issue)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=608s (Attitudes taken)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=761s (Leaky liars...People who express improper emotions...including contempt!)  Wink Cheesy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P_6vDLq64gE#t=886s (Asking the right questions and looking at the behaviors that come out of answering those questions.)

Control your desires when listening!

It is worth your time to see this video.
2868  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 04:37:23 AM
What income have BFL had for the past8 months? Pre sales.

But what happened? Couldn't deliver then missed their specs. Sales would have slowed and refunds grown. How many people have asked for their 30K back from no chance of getting a mini rig? And for the remaining products the profit has been slashed due to pricing against a spec they couldn't deliver, and they bought ALOT of parts they can't use. (I'm thinking about those boxes of 1500W PSUs they showed us).

Now they are doing something strange - instead of concentrating on delivering the orders they already have they are asking 50% up front for a bulk chip order. Why? Because they need the $$$$$$. They are running out of the money they have been donated for the past 12 months, and their on going income is minimal. I'm thinking they are even struggling to pay for their chip orders and hence they need people to down pay for the manufacturing for both bulk chip sales and chips for what ever BFL is able to deliver.

When will there be a class action against BFL for late delivery and failing to meet promised specs?





A quick google search brought up these old memories from months ago. That is alot of parts.
2869  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 03:55:42 AM
So bizarre... it makes me wonder if they have money issues? If you intend to sell chips, why not price them below the competition and release schematics, etc. at the same time? A chip cannot cost them even close to $90 to produce... why not charge $30-$50 and actually present a viable option for miners? As it is, there is absolutely no benefit in investing in their chips over Avalon (that I see).

Maybe they need the 50% upfront to scrounge up some money.  The redesigns cost them a lot, their profit margins in their initial offersings (prior to the price double(!)) were not very large.

All the actions BFL has taken over the last few months are a huge red flag they're having money problems.  They didn't budget for their chips being underperforming, slower, and requiring more to get the same hashrate.  They didn't budget for the expanded PCBs with twice as many chips on them as before.  They didn't budget for double the heatsinks.

According to the thread you're only getting about 10% more GH/sec per dollar, so they didn't undercut Avalon by much. 


Or having to produce 60,000 units + and only having 60~65 wafers with....1,100 chips each. (assuming 100% perfect chips...which is improbable)

Does anyone see a math problem above?
2870  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 03:52:04 AM
Want to see what Avalon said about their [BFL] Fab production "a while ago"?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/500-josh-plz-give-us-some-comments-about.html

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/500-josh-plz-give-us-some-comments-about-3.html#post37045

Take a look at the first page where a well known quote from Team Avalon is cited in the first post, then zoom forward "into the future" towards the end. As Josh recently gave the thread a backhand comment for someone bringing it back to bite him in the ass.

The Truth hurts!
2871  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: BFL Group Buy[ANY GRADE] on: June 02, 2013, 03:25:09 AM
Having chips is nice.....BUT,who's doing the board design  Huh

I don't see BFL releasing specs anytime soon...............................
The big question is, can the open source guys:

A) figure out what is wrong with the design themselves?
B) Do what BFL fails to do and what keeps BFL from en masse shipping?

It seems strange at this point to start selling chips when the design(s) across several product lines aren't even really properly working or fully implemented yet.

It is gonna be a gamble at this point to buy into it. If the problems are good enough to keep BFL going into delay after delay, then what are open source manufacturers going to do better?
2872  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 03:14:51 AM

One avalon chip costs $10.0109. If one $97 with 16 engines has 2880MH/s and one chip of avalon has 282MH/s then the MH/s for avalon would cost: $0.0355 and bfl's MH/s $0.03368. Man i hope thats correct finally... Smiley


Thats about what I got. Its almost 1:1. With no real big power savings either  Cheesy

Its getting the PCBs made for these things and then getting them assembled that scares me. Not that I ever expect these to show up in quantitys. The thing that amazes me is that they are offering a 20% discount on orders over 10,000 chips. Like anyone will be spending $8,000,000 on chips alone. Do you think they could deliver 10,000+ of these in the next 100 days? Its just like the miners where they are taking as many pre-orders as they can, and they will quickly get in over their heads on this as well.
Gotta power the next die shrink...though honestly, if they are getting 110nm performance at 65nm with their designs...I doubt a die shrink will do them much good.
2873  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 03:13:22 AM
I think what's going on is that BFL can not order chips in large enough quantities to fullfil their orders... they just order a certain amount at a time and their product is just trickling out.

now if they have a way to raise a gazzilion dollars again (let's sell chips!!) then they could place very large orders of chips.

then they will use the chips received to fullfil the orders while those who ordered chips will wait again...

Let's rob Peter to rob pay Paul.
Bingo, that my reasoning and speculation as well...
2874  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 01:13:12 AM
Theres already a thread with the exact same name: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222983
Seems like this is the next wave of scams. People with barely any posts are asking people to send them a load of money.

Guarantees they won't run with the money instead of ordering? Close to none.
2875  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 01:03:43 AM
So one chip has 180MH/s. 14 engines per chip means $89/chip. $89000 per 10k. -10% means $80100 for 10k chips. Avalon charges 782.1BTC * $128 = $100109. Doesnt sound bad. But avalons chips have 282MH/s standard. So the GH costs $3.55 for avalon and $4.45 for BFL. The half power usage doesnt mean much at the current time. And isnt it still open if that is true at the end?

Then 100 days mean 14,28 weeks. Avalon claims to need 9-10 weeks only.

So im not sure if BFL will make a fortune with this... but... when i think about it... i believe most BFL customers will happily get their chips instead nothing. At least they know the chips are working. Even when this means they have to wait some time to have a working miner... its still more reliable to wait for someone in the community to build a miner.

Maybe some people will prefer to buy BFL chips too instead having to trust a groupbuy. Its a good move to lower the minimum amount of chips needed to order.

Something wrong with my calculations?

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when I am considering converting my orders to ships because I trust yet unnamed DIY builders to deliver working miners before a multi million dollar company that has had 12 months to get a product out.

 Undecided
It makes you wonder what is wrong with the general design that it needs that many revisions. Lets hope they will provide technical support for those that take the reins in the future.
2876  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: BFL Group Buy[ANY GRADE] on: June 02, 2013, 01:01:51 AM
Question:

Why should we trust you?

Why aren't you offering escrow?
2877  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 12:51:12 AM
BFL is always behind Yifu!
You are wise beyond all men!
2878  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 12:39:27 AM
i chuckled at this as well. i guess if they convert all the pre-orders to chip sales, they won't need to worry about fixing problems with their boards  Wink
Bingo,

It also lowers the bar with respect to complexity in the delivery of orders. If it's only chips...they can manage that much right? Grin

That is one way of resolving the issue.

2879  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales on: June 02, 2013, 12:37:46 AM
So now they are also in the chip selling business:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/3014-butterfly-labs-announces-bulk-chip-sales.html

Quote
Butterfly Labs will begin selling bulk chips to individuals and companies starting in June, 2013. Chip delivery schedule is approximately 100 days through end packaging once your order is placed. We will be providing reference documentation, reference design/schematics, and foundry receipt/documentation.

Chips will be graded and priced as follows:

Grade A: 16 Engines - $97/chip
Grade B: 15 Engines - $93/chip
Grade C: 14 Engines - $89/chip

Grade D: 13 Engines or less - $83/chip

Our chips will be provided in minimum lots of 100 with the following price structure:

100 - 999 chips - Regular Price
1000 - 9999 chips - 5% discount
10,000 - 99,999 chips - 10% discount
100,000 or more - 20% discount

Chip orders will require 50% down and 50% upon order delivery. Payment can be made via BTC (preferred) or bank wire.

Advantages of BFL chips:

1/2 the power usage per GH as the closest competitor
1/10th the silicon area per GH as the closest competitor (Very high performance density)
You can use off the shelf heat sinks depending on your chip layout due to FCBGA package vs custom underside heat sinks as required on some QFN packages. You don't have to design and manufacture heat sinks!
Proven design currently operating in the field and ready to go.

We will allow you to convert current orders with us into chip orders if you would rather design your own.

If you would like to place an order, please email chipsales@butterflylabs.com
Blows on his BS decoder ring.

The following is imaginary and simply wild speculation without a basis...allegedly

A) Oh shit, we have a shit ton of orders and little or no funding to pay for new wafers!
A1) I know, let just pass the cost of new wafers to our customers!
A2) I know, lets pitch the idea Avalon is doing to our boss. Surely he would love to see us sell 2$ chips for 97$!


B) Oh shit, we might not be able to complete our huge order backlog!
B1) I know, let get this monkey off our backs and shift the blame of bad boards to open source vendors. We will sell our yet to be made chips with an extra 50% downpayment for quick liquidity! That way we can clear our backlog of orders and prevent our asses from getting thrown into court.
B2) I know, lets lull people into thinking they can just make our boards for us. In this way we will only be responsible to order chips from the fab and the packaging people....and the rest will work itself out! We can't possibly screw this up....We are probably going to collapse soon, so we might as well open source our design. We are knee deep in commitments/liability we won't be able to fulfill anytime soon. Don't let them see the panic in our eyes?!

60 days to fulfill 2 days worth of orders.

How many days between june 23, 2012 and December 31, 2012? Alot. How many from Jan 1, 2013 till today? Can anyone say, entering PANIC mode?

So sometime in 2020? Right? I hope!
2880  Economy / Services / Re: B-BOT: New MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: June 01, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
I have a question:

What are the upgrades going to cost on average?

Hi Smiley,
   We are working on a new payment structure, so this isn't a complete answer, but for the next generation it should be about 15 USD. For V3 there will likely be a different payment structure so I can't fully answer the question. It will never be unreasonable, always optional, and the added features of each new generation will be significant.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Pablo.
I am also a customer of https://www.bit-trader.net/ as well so I will let you know which platform does a better job of trading.

Any plans to create a standalone module (without Chrome)?
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