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2881  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Radical Feminism (continued from Capitalism) on: June 25, 2013, 01:40:30 AM
TECSHARE used the wrong term. This topic isn't "self moderated," it's "OP moderated." Self moderated would be posters moderating, editing, and deleting their own posts. The "Libertarian and Anarchist" thing to do. OP moderated is that other thing.
Or it could be that due to the sensitivity of the subject matter, I feel it's prudent to shield the thread from the prevalent rape culture.

Conversely, I would rather find out if someone is has a prevalent rape culture, and have people's thoughts on it be in public, just in case there are some creeps I'd rather not associate with.
2882  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Radical Feminism (continued from Capitalism) on: June 25, 2013, 01:36:04 AM
Matrilinial culture is a culture that does not rely on state issued receipts called birth certificates that determine one's surname.

Huh? I thought in this country parents decided on a child's name and surname, and the state only recorded the parents' decision?
2883  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Radical Feminism (continued from Capitalism) on: June 25, 2013, 01:33:45 AM
Saying "crime" within anarchist frameworks is a terrible habit.

If enough people in a community consider it a crime, it's a crime, regardless of whether there are governments or laws involved. Whether "crime" is the right word to use at that point is just a question of semantics. I don't like to use "immoral," because not everything considered "immoral" is unethical, and just saying "unethical" just doesn't have the same intensity of meaning. If you would prefer some other term for an act that a society, with or without government, considers extremely wrong and requiring restitution, let me know.
2884  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 25, 2013, 01:27:26 AM
If some rich ass owns an island on the other side of the world, it's just a piece of paper.
...
Thus the concept of property only makes sense when there is a (military) force, mostly supplied by a state, behind it that can protect it.

Say you own a piece of land with a house far away. What you're gonna do against squatters? Today, you'd call the police, right? Also supplied by the state.

Please answer this question, as no one ever does: Who paid for that military force or that police, and why can't they pay for it directly if there was no government?
2885  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 25, 2013, 01:21:39 AM
tracing one's lineage through mothers of any gender is the crucial part, as opposed to relying on state documents.

Question

... and please, keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is a royal count, with a very rich family history spanning centuries, from Italy, through Poland, Russia, and Ukraine, from someone who comes from a long history of very prominent and well known scientists, who's great*3-grandfather even has a giant portrait and permanent exhibit at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington DC ...

Why bother tracing one's lineage, whether through mothers or fathers, in the first place? What's so special about the dead people you came from?
2886  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California on: June 25, 2013, 01:13:08 AM

That was f'in hilarious! Thanks  Grin
2887  Other / Off-topic / Re: Religious beliefs on bitcoin on: June 25, 2013, 01:02:27 AM
But as humans we have finite brains.  There is a limit to what we can understand. 

Please don't call yourself dumb, and don't limit yourself in what you can achieve. That right there is the single worst thing about religion, where it convinces people that they will never understand, and makes them stop trying.
2888  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Would like to hear objections to radical libertarianism on: June 25, 2013, 12:56:31 AM
To use your bully analogy, what if everyone on the school yard had a money system that made it impossible for the bully to collect his yearly gains? Or if enough of the people were so tired of the bully that they started using their untraceable money system to buy protection against the bully, or even worse, fund a private team of bullies to harass and bully that main bully in return? How long would that first big bully maintain power and want to keep bullying? As for the second team of bullies, they were hired to take out the first bully using this system, so they are aware that the same system can be used against them as well, so I would hope they would focus more on protection against other bullies, than just becoming bullies themselves.
So the kids carry paper wallets instead of paper banknotes.
You basically get Bitcoin: a massive power vacuum that encourages lots of corruptible people to try their luck at being "a new bully" (scammers, con artists, etc.)

Won't those corruptible people quickly learn that anyone who gets into that position will get bullied out of it?

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Quote
What if, instead of focusing on taking out number 1 bully, and just having number 2 come in, we focused on making number 1 bully's job irrelevant and impossible to maintain? Simply by abstaining from doing whatever the bully wants, and abstaining from supporting him personally and financially? That was, it wouldn't be bully 1 that fades into obscurity, it would be his seat of power. At that point it won't matter who sits in it. And if everyone abstains from supporting seats of power, by not following their orders or refusing to fund them, then the power vacuum will be taken up by all the people as a whole, holding control over their own governance, as opposed to some individual bully.
The difference seems semantic. Sure, the number 2 bully (a Mafia, drug militia, insurance racket or whoever they are) probably doesn't 'do' healthcare, public education, justice systems or any of that other stuff a de jure government does. However, their status as the highest power in the land would automatically make them the de facto government, regardless of their speciality. And there might be a collection of them.

Won't the mafia types quickly learn that if they become bullies there will be other bullies secretly paid to come gunning for them?

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Quote
What if the bully, with all his stolen lunch money, starts buying lots of candy for the kid with gigantism?
You misunderstand. The kid with gigantism (i.e.: the government and its coercive forces) prevents all the smaller would-be bullies from doing too much damage in the first place.

How? Why can't the bully with the most lunch money just convince that kid that all other bullies but him are bad, too? Isn't that's what we're having happen to our government, where the biggest corporate bullies are buying the most candy for the retarded kids in the Senate, so they throw their weight around and bully other smaller businesses and citizens?
2889  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: June 24, 2013, 09:53:34 PM
In a voluntary exchange--a capitalist exchange--I look out for my own interests, and the other party looks out for theirs. There is no conflict of interest, and if a deal completes it is because both participants feel they will be better off after the deal is done than before, or else the deal does not take place. Thus every transaction in a capitalist system results in more and more benefit to society in general.

I don't see how a voluntary exchange implies that there is no conflict of interest.
If the other party withholds information that would make you change your mind about the deal than that is pretty much direct conflict of interest.

Bring in a third party that both of the first two parties agree to use, to make sure there are no conflicts of interest such as these, and have both of the first two pay the third one. Everybody wins.
2890  Other / Off-topic / Re: Religious beliefs on bitcoin on: June 24, 2013, 09:42:39 PM
I have had many times I have had a few angry words with God, to put it nicely.  The amazing thing is when I "have it out" with Him, that is when He comes to me and helps me the most.  I am often a spoiled kid wanting my way though and  He has taught me that He never promised me an easy life but he promised to walk with me through it.

I remember those times, too. I would get angry with him about something in my life, but I would feel comforted, as if he understood me, and that he would stay by my side. Whatever hardships I personally had with god, despite making me a bit angry or frustrated with him at times, never made me question him. The point at which it started to unravel was when I expanded my world from just "me me me" and started being angry at god for others. I couldn't simply be angry at god, have my words with him, have him comfort me, and have that be over with. I would be angry with god about something outside of me, things I saw being done to others I loved or cared about, then I would have words with god, and after seeing nothing be done or changed, things would stay unresolved, and I would be left with nothing but more questions.
2891  Other / Off-topic / Re: Religious beliefs on bitcoin on: June 24, 2013, 09:35:54 PM
I may have said it several times now. If you were in my shoes, you'd be a fool to write off your experiences as fantasy. It'd be like describing the Eiffel Tower as "a bit of metal" or like trying to do a doctoral thesis on quantum mechanics in the style of dr. suess, with a 100 word vocabulary. There's no mistaking the real thing.

And I have said it several times, too. I did not "write off" the experience. It was an integral part of my life, and I've felt the same way you do. So the whole process was quite a gut-wrenching struggle, one I fought very hard against, clinging to my religion as hard as I could, and trying to continue to convince myself of why god and my faith were real. But, at some point, I just got to where I couldn't reconcile what I believed with what I knew. And now I realize that it was all in my head, and I feel so much more free and happy because of it.
2892  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Best/worst places to be in the United States once the USD plummets? on: June 24, 2013, 09:30:20 PM
Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

lol you think you are the only one with guns? Good luck defeating bandits/mobs with guns.

nets and traps. I don't have to go out and look for people to shoot, just sit and wait for them to come to me and check the traps once in a while  Grin
2893  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 24, 2013, 09:29:00 PM
Capitalism, which is a form of collectivism

Sorry to use that way overused meme, but I do not think that word means what you think it means. Either of those. Just so we don't go around in circles, instead of assuming that the rest of us have any clue as to what you are talking about, can you actually explain what you mean, without using words like "capitalism," "collectivism," and "matrilineal"?
2894  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: June 24, 2013, 09:26:01 PM
The USA version of capitalism works this way. No one wants to provide for the needy (even if it may be in their self interest to do so) they have to accumulate as much wealth as they can before the next guy gets it first.

That likely has a lot to do with most people here just struggling to survive paycheck-to-paycheck, bill-to-bill, let along build up capital. Wealthy corporations and individuals give to charity all the time though. Even Wal-Mart.
2895  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California on: June 24, 2013, 09:16:10 PM
Really? Does TBF pay the lead developers salary?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the lead developer work on a software system that can transfer funds for cash out at an exchange?

No. Just software that can store and transfer bitcoins. Exchanges work on the software that transfers between cash and bitcoins. This would be like telling World of Warcraft to get a MTB license because people on eBay trade their currency for cash.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Did TBF spend any funds advertising the recent California conference?

Yes

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
Does the state of California consider that to be enough for violation of the law?

I really don't know. I would think that if my organization was being sponsored by Bank of America, and I pointed that fact out at one of my conferences, thus giving them advertising in exchange, that I would not have to register as a bank?

Quote from: QuestionAuthority
I don't know enough of the inside story to answer all these questions but if you do please enlighten us.  

I wish I could. Logically, none of this makes any sense. But then again not only I Am Not A Lawyer, but I Am Not A Crazy Person either. And I am starting to suspect these people might be.
2896  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Would like to hear objections to radical libertarianism on: June 24, 2013, 08:53:13 PM
Flawed premises, and circularity.

Flawed premises: Libertarians (and some varieties of Anarchists) often have a wish-list for things that they want for society, i.e.: "goals", but they generally don't specify realistic means to achieve them.

E.g.: "No centralized coercive monopoly on force"

It seems that some monopolies occur naturally. If left untouched by politics, it seems they would just happen. If the top spots in political power are supported by violent institutions (police force, armies, etc.), then obviously violence is helpful to them. Violence and monopolies sometimes go together. To bring it down to school-yard level: bullies get what they want by abusing everyone else's peace-loving system. They use their early gains (e.g.: stolen pocket money) to consolidate power (e.g.: buy more water pistols) and fend off attackers. Off course it's 'unfair' but it's primary school 101 stuff.

To use your bully analogy, what if everyone on the school yard had a money system that made it impossible for the bully to collect his yearly gains? Or if enough of the people were so tired of the bully that they started using their untraceable money system to buy protection against the bully, or even worse, fund a private team of bullies to harass and bully that main bully in return? How long would that first big bully maintain power and want to keep bullying? As for the second team of bullies, they were hired to take out the first bully using this system, so they are aware that the same system can be used against them as well, so I would hope they would focus more on protection against other bullies, than just becoming bullies themselves.

Circularity.

The next step? Ban the biggest bully. "Educate", "change people's mindsets" -- whatever. Somehow influence things so that the biggest bully loses his power. What happens then? There's obviously a new biggest bully because number 2 is now number 1. What's worse is that the new bully has a nice warm seat left for him and could end up worse than the predecessor. Libertarians seem to constantly scapegoat 'government' bullies, without much consideration for who is waiting in the wings. Never mind the "world-wide collection of Smurf villages" ideas (or some variation thereof) they want to achieve.

Apart from being unrealistic, their ideas always seem to ignore the concept of a power vacuum. Why? Too inconvenient? Surely others have mentioned it before?

What if, instead of focusing on taking out number 1 bully, and just having number 2 come in, we focused on making number 1 bully's job irrelevant and impossible to maintain? Simply by abstaining from doing whatever the bully wants, and abstaining from supporting him personally and financially? That was, it wouldn't be bully 1 that fades into obscurity, it would be his seat of power. At that point it won't matter who sits in it. And if everyone abstains from supporting seats of power, by not following their orders or refusing to fund them, then the power vacuum will be taken up by all the people as a whole, holding control over their own governance, as opposed to some individual bully.

To me Libertarian thinking seems dogmatic and black-or-white with no shades of grey. What about a third possibility? Returning to the metaphor, the kids in the school-yard rally around and by-and-large support the friendly disabled kid with gigantism. Since he's bigger than everyone else, he has the means to use violence to keep everyone else in line. He's not very ambitious or smart, but often takes advice from smarter kids who lobby him one way or another. This seems pretty much what the entire developed world is trying to work with -- a relatively benign force on the throne which keeps power away from those who would be more evil.

What if the bully, with all his stolen lunch money, starts buying lots of candy for the kid with gigantism?
2897  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Radical Feminism (continued from Capitalism) on: June 24, 2013, 08:28:52 PM
A self moderated topic in politics and society. This thread is going places.

This.

Lol! I find this highly ironic. The forum is filled with Libertarians and Anarchists who want the whole world to be "self-moderated", yet the thought of a self-moderated Interwebs thread scares them. So they trust 'authority' more than they trust their peers, as long as the authority hasn't taxed/done anything bad to them yet? Out with the old, and in with the new!

TECSHARE used the wrong term. This topic isn't "self moderated," it's "OP moderated." Self moderated would be posters moderating, editing, and deleting their own posts. The "Libertarian and Anarchist" thing to do. OP moderated is that other thing.
2898  Other / Off-topic / Re: Religious beliefs on bitcoin on: June 24, 2013, 08:25:58 PM
If I were in your shoes I'd probably agree with you. However, it turned out that my friend was not only not imaginary, but also faithful with matters well beyond my influence.

Suppose that you had a personal relationship with someone for years, and you learned that you could count on them to keep their promises. Can you imagine how ridiculous it sounds when someone tries to calmly explain to you that you're imagining them?

As a matter of fact, yes, I can. I grew up non-religious (was just never taught anything about it, coming from USSR, which is why I believe babies are both atheist), then I was taught about religion, and was a catholic for many years growing up. I believed wholeheartedly, and got all those friend benefits and happy feelings from my personal relationship with god, thinking god was looking over me and such. So I know the feeling you describe. I just got over it, and now look back at it in much the same way you probably remember the glee and excitement you've felt as a child, when you were expecting Santa to come with gifts.

And thing is, many, if not almost all, atheists from USA were religious at one point, too, feeling the same way you do. We all live in a very religious country, and it's almost impossible to grow up without someone trying to convince you of christianity (at least it was a few decades ago). So it's not that atheists "don't get it" because they "don't understand the feeling and relationship you get from god." They do, because they've had it too. So it's not that atheists think you guys are crazy. They just think you are still diluded and confused. Which is perfectly fine, as long as you keep your fantasies to yourselves. In part because we feel embarrassed for you, and in part because you guys try to convince those in power to turn your fantasies into laws.
2899  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California on: June 24, 2013, 08:16:10 PM
If you're audited by the IRS, and I hope you never are, the way to solve it is to lawyer up, get your paperwork gathered and go in shooting. That will lessen your costs. Doing nothing but saying, "yep' I did everything right" on a response letter without providing proof is the way to get a full judgement against you for unpaid taxes and possibly jail time. Not a good plan.

I'm sure that applies to taxes, as a he-said-she-said kinda dispute about revenues that needs to be resolved, but this seems pretty cut and dry. They said Bitcoin Foundation does the functions of a money transmitter. Bitcoin Foundation does no such thing. Not even close. There isn't even anything for TBF to show to prove that they are not. Unless these bureaucrats come up with something like "Bitcoin Foundation is hiding the evidence that they are transmitting money!" there is quite literally nothing for TBF to show or prove...
right?
2900  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Bitcoin Foundation receives cease and desist order from California on: June 24, 2013, 08:03:29 PM
IANAL, but...


I think it would be amusing if the Bitcoin Foundation sent back a reply, stating simply

Done!

and just continued to do what it's doing. If that's the end of this amusement, some California bureaucrat will smile smugly, feeling that mission has been accomplished. If we are lucky enough for this amusement to continue, then they will (I hope I hope I hope) keep sending more C&D letters, to which TBF can just keep replying, "Done!" until those bureaucrats actually spend some time to try to prove that TBF is actually doing any money transmitting. And fail.

Downside, though, is that they would be too embarrassed about wasting a few hundred thousand tax payer dollars, and will probably try to pin some BS on TBF, just so none of them get in trouble for wasting everyone's time.

That would be funny until you find out the burden of proof is on you and not them and your facing a nice big fat fine. I guess that's ok though because the community would be paying the fine from member donations.


But if you are not actually doing the thing they are accusing you of doing, and you tell them that you have stopped doing it, you aren't lying, right? It wouldn't be saying, "I am not doing this, please prove that I am," it's simply "I stopped doing it."
I guess they can still fine you, claiming that you are still doing the thing you've never done in the first place Sad
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