I am sorry!

I thought no one (the customers at least) know this much.

I will quit being the boogey man. I apologize to BFL customers for letting them in on the....

Oops:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2925-how-can-refund-i-have-lost-confidence-were-fooled.html

Lets say I took in 4000 orders from June 23rd, 2012.

200 Jally's
800 Little Singles
2998 Singles
2 Minirigs.

Lets say the current date is April 1st 2013. Okay? Good.

Then lets say I ship out 2 Jally's on April 1st 2013. Great.
Then lets say I ship out 35 Jally's on April 23rd 2013. Yippee!
Then lets say I ship out 100 Jally's on May 23rd 2013. Excellent.

Problem. See above, most of my queue hasn't even been executed. It took me the better part of two months to clear out 1 week of received orders [for Jallys only] from 1 year ago....SIGH.

What if I ordered a Jally a whole month after the initial orders being received....well damn...at the current clip of speed...It will take about...<calculates an approximation>...TOO LONG. LOL (On the order of about 2 months to execute every 1 week of received orders = 8 months)

Thats not even talking about the most popular line of products. Yikes. Unless Jody starts blogging about 1000+ orders going out each day, the order queue will never be cleared out anytime soon.

What I currently see is that they are:
--Shipping out their (I think) least popular product at a very slow clip. Certainly slower than they received the orders.

--Have yet to begin shipping out their most popular product line (the Single SC and Little Single).

--Have many months of orders in a backlog and haven't a hope in hell of exceeding their intake. (In my opinion)

Edit: Unless they exceed their intake speed for orders in a given period of time...they will perpetually never be able to catch up to current orders placed just today...in any reasonable time frame.

They aren't even telling anyone what the status of the bulk wafers are.

I'll give you a hint, the silence from BFL over the last two months on any details is probably NOT because they don't have any updates. It's probably because the truth of the matter is INCONVENIENT.

Right now everyone (BFL customers) are high on fumes of a few measly orders being shipped on the (I think) least popular line of products which means it is the smallest order queue.

There is so much spin going on at BFL labs in the way they even release ongoing developments that they could probably start a centrifuge center. (In my opinion.)

If it took them 11 months to accumulate their current order queue. Then, for them to catch up and clear it out they would need to satisfy orders at a faster clip than they received them.

If they received on average 200 orders for every day for 11 months. Then they must ship out 201 orders for every day for the next 11 months.


Question: Do you currently see this happening?

Hopefully, someday, you realize that for a company to satisfy their order queue.....


.....Wait for the bombshell....


....They have to ship out faster than they receive the orders over a given time span.

There is still some missing correspondence you have to fill in.

The above quoted text, for example, is missing from your redacted emails.

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Second, pardon me, but your conclusion that Avalon is "ignoring" wallet bit sounds like it isn't supported in your emails. As far as I have read, Wallet bit only comes to a generalized conclusion out of thin air. They don't even make any remark in the email of trying to contact Avalon.

They only "suppose" they [Avalon] may be shipping out of order.

This is why I asked you for your email correspondence. Since your conclusion seems like a forced one. I think it is only fair to say that Avalon is shipping units with some unknown pattern. But to extend that and also say they Ignored WalletBit (The Payment Processors emails) is disingenuous and probably overreaching as a conclusion.

Endlessa posted the questions here:

http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159009&p=713115

Feel free to review the case they posted and see if they actually did a good job of posing all the questions (with relevant material) attached.

The results sound fairly biased but who knows.

@ Firefop

The only thing I can determine is that the stack of possible dangers BFL faces is getting larger with every [additional] week that this "situation" goes on.

Honestly, I don't see how they are going to extricate themselves from all the mishaps. It just keeps getting worse as time goes on.

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I can't even begin to imagine how their luck has held out this long. I can't even imagine an exit strategy where the customers end up happy and still get their devices...in lets say a month. I have run the numbers (guesstimates) and I keep coming to the conclusion that unless BFL ships out thousands of units per day, they simply won't be able to fulfill the backlog in any reasonable time frame.

The only scenario that BFL can possibly win is:

A) They send out all orders immediately or within a month (not going to happen based on what I can see).

B) They somehow prevent anyone from complaining or seeking judgements against them. <-- Unlikely

I can't imagine a realistic scenario where this ends well.

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There is a rumor on the forum that the boards had the wrong mosfets installed on them and they can't be used or need to be modified. So there again, they lose even more time. Honestly, I don't see how they can pull out of the nose dive. All I do know is we need someone from BFL to ship so that the competition can lower their prices. That is in my best interests.

The premise you put forth is untenable.

If BFL loses X number of customers cases and that drives them to bankruptcy, the affected Y number of customers cannot sue X number of customers because "BFL failed" or was bankrupted via litigation.

That isn't a possibility to start with. Y simply loses out and the only person to blame would be BFL, not anyone else.

Edit: I can only imagine considering the discussion going on, there are probably more than a few members getting legal advice. If it were zero that would indeed surprise me.

It would be (in my opinion) incredibly difficult to win as a defendant if you were BFL. As someone noted above, there are cogent points that would be difficult to navigate around in a court case.

You mean I could buy an Avalon as a "cover cost". The law is a wonderful process. (I am joking/kidding)

No kidding, I was thinking this exact same thought while reading your posts.

They would have one hell of a time coming out of that courtroom unscathed. Whats worse, I believe if a case is extremely similar to another case, the people asking for money can ask for a summary judgement by simply referring to another case where the decision went in their favor. (assuming they make the exact same scenario over again)

If that is the case, then this opens the door to Butterfly Labs opening themselves to a legal attack strategy and losing every time if they even lose once. It is conceivable (I think) that if the community prepared a pamphlet for how to execute an effective case against Butterly Labs then, they can very well get down to dealing with BFL in court for losses and damages incurred from lengthy and unreasonable promises.

I am of the thought that this may lead to BFL simply bending over with settlements every time a horde shows up in court. Then again, if you have a winning case, why would you settle in the first place?

Just some thoughts.

Show us what your wrote to them to elicit that response (no redactions please).

Ugh, the stupidity of that conclusion flys in the face of all logic.

It assumes people can't find the silver lining regardless of the turnout of a situation.

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By those geniuses (nottm28, Endlessa, where is that wrenchmonkey?) mode of thinking there is no way for a miner to profit from either situation. SIGH.

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Whats interesting about their argument is that the premise itself doesn't ultimately make sense. If a miner were worried about the hashrate going through the roof making their miner unprofitable...then wouldn't a moment of thought applied to that logic....also lead a person to resolve the idea in their mind that "then no ASIC unit would be profitable" if that were the case?

Isn't that pretty obvious as a conclusion?

If mine were not profitable in that circumstance then, why would any other ASIC miner in another persons hands help?

They seem to miss the obvious. Or perhaps they have no actual idea of the various solutions you can come up with to resolve every situation. (Of which I am not going to say anything on...if you haven't figure it out, then that is good for me!)

Don't be stupid.

No one is anonymous dummy (unless they are somehow incredibly ignorant of various facts). Don't overlay your own [apparent] stupidity (or nonsense notions) unto others.

To use a phrase that the retard Inaba himself has used in his own defense.

"Well, it's all publicly available information."

And yes, you may send any postcards you wish to the last address. Leave out any anthrax or other dangerous substances, please.

As far as I am concerned you are Inaba.

You used information that was only disclosed by him.