Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[PuertoLibre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

[smoothie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

+1 more public exposure of Josh/Inaba and his bullshit.

[nottm28]

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

Actually, it was partially thanks to you. In 2012, BFL entered into a forward contract to provide future goods with Xian in exchange for capital upfront. This is a very common occurrence in agriculture for crops, fuel, equipement, seed, fertilizer, etc. It is also common in resource extraction industries like mining (how apropos).

As you noted, these contracts increased dramatically in value since they were first purchased in 2012. You also noted that Xian should have been able to sell another forward contract for the delivery of his units to a third party for a healthy profit. BFL unilaterally terminated the contract, but they did not compensate Xian for market value, only the original face value. BFL then sold the rights to Xian's units to someone else for a higher return. The whole point of a forward contract is to obtain future goods at a fixed price. If the seller could unilaterally change the price at their whim, no forward contract would ever be worth entering.

It should be quite trivial for Xian to obtain a remedy. The courts would probably not be involved unless BFL was unable to pay. It is possible I suppose, that BFL would fight it for pride's sake. I really can't see them winning. This is a clear case of breach of contract.

Assuming xian is willing to pay the $10k initial fee to get one of those 'good' lawyers on his side to file the initial lawsuit. I doubt that he would and I doubt he would win anyway. BFL would likely file a counter lawsuit for defamation - eventually they would both 'lose' - the 'good' lawyers would win and xian would be out of pocket big time. Like I said you are building up his hopes for no real outcome.

[nottm28]

Hey xian, you really need this drlukacs on your side - he's an ace litigator and will get you back the potential $15k you lost due to your inability to hold back you tongue...

That is very kind of you to say, but I must confess that I am not a lawyer. I am a mathematician.

My legal experience is mainly is in the area of air passenger rights (which is an interesting mix of contract law, regulatory law, and administrative law):

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/canadas-airline-industry

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

[EDIT] ... enter puerto - the champion

[PuertoLibre]

A judge will be considering whether in light of an indicated delivery time of October 2012, non-delivery by May 2013 is "reasonable." All I can say that I would not want to be counsel for BFL at that hearing...

No kidding, I was thinking this exact same thought while reading your posts.

They would have one hell of a time coming out of that courtroom unscathed. Whats worse, I believe if a case is extremely similar to another case, the people asking for money can ask for a summary judgement by simply referring to another case where the decision went in their favor. (assuming they make the exact same scenario over again)

If that is the case, then this opens the door to Butterfly Labs opening themselves to a legal attack strategy and losing every time if they even lose once. It is conceivable (I think) that if the community prepared a pamphlet for how to execute an effective case against Butterly Labs then, they can very well get down to dealing with BFL in court for losses and damages incurred from lengthy and unreasonable promises.

I am of the thought that this may lead to BFL simply bending over with settlements every time a horde shows up in court. Then again, if you have a winning case, why would you settle in the first place?

Just some thoughts.

[nottm28]

As if by magic ^^^

[PuertoLibre]

[A forward contract is precisely a "contract for sale of future goods." Xian bought a forward contract. Forward contracts need not specify an exact time in the future to be executed. The traditional measure of damages for a seller’s breach of contract is the difference between the market price and the contract price. The UCC retains this rule.

UCC broadens the damages, because it also allows incidental and consequential damages. It also explicitly allows for recovery of "cover" costs, that is, the purchase of a substitute item.

You mean I could buy an Avalon as a "cover cost". The law is a wonderful process. (I am joking/kidding)

[drlukacs]

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

I am not sure what you mean by "given the facts and numbers." The law does seem to be quite strongly in favour of Xian.

[drlukacs]

UCC broadens the damages, because it also allows incidental and consequential damages. It also explicitly allows for recovery of "cover" costs, that is, the purchase of a substitute item.

You mean I could buy an Avalon as a "cover cost". The law is a wonderful process. (I am joking/kidding)

You may be kidding, but depending on the circumstances, it may be a valid action, and yes, BFL may be on the hook.

[nottm28]

Interesting read. I am a mathematician too as it happens. Makes me unsure why you would jump on board with this guy given the facts and numbers.

I am not sure what you mean by "given the facts and numbers." The law does seem to be quite strongly in favour of Xian.

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

[drlukacs]

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

I do not mind, but would you please be so kind to include a link? There are 49 pages of this thread, so finding the right post is a fairly non-trivial task, unless you know what you are looking for exactly.

[nottm28]

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

I do not mind, but would you please be so kind to include a link? There are 49 pages of this thread, so finding the right post is a fairly non-trivial task, unless you know what you are looking for exactly.

Actually I'd rather not. I really don't mind if you don't want to read the thread before offering your opinion. If you just want to try and re-create the argument that has already been... I'll just skip over your posts.

[k9quaint]

Well I have summarized the facts and the numbers before on this thread. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to go back and actually read the thread rather than have me re-posting my comments ad infinitum.

I do not mind, but would you please be so kind to include a link? There are 49 pages of this thread, so finding the right post is a fairly non-trivial task, unless you know what you are looking for exactly.

Plus examining 49 pages of this particular thread could cause blindness, nausea, vomiting, liver damage, and a diminished outlook on humanity. Did I mention the uncontrollable flatulence?

Nottm28 left the thread for a time and missed the discussion on contract law. I would recommend that he read a few pages, but I wouldn't wish that on another human being.

[MooC Tals]

Is it not sad that BFL has to induce fear in the pre-order customers? To actually pursued them from cancelling their orders!

Now why would BFL cancel an order that has been waiting for so long? Now this is speculation on my part, however it does require you to think that if cancelled they could make more money on new orders at the slightly elevated cost. Now that would be disturbing to me at least if that was true. BFL would never do that.

[nottm28]

Nottm28 left the thread for a time and missed the discussion on contract law. I would recommend that he read a few pages, but I wouldn't wish that on another human being.

Yes I sleep and have a life. Speed read the posts and found little of interest.

[nottm28]

Now this is speculation on my part...

Time for me to retire - I have said my piece. I do hope xian learns something from this (and refrains from telling people to FO - that might help).

[MooC Tals]

I would have nothing to lose if I were you.

Just call the authorities and get this company shut down (they gotta be doing something illegal) after all if you can't have it why should anyone else. I cancelled my orders so no sweat off my brow.

Get the law involved if you want. Up to you. You're just an asshole to Josh remember?

I believe he is in breach of contract and pain and suffering has been endured. As long as you don't provide a paypal information you have them stuck in breach and possibly able to sue.

Call a lawyer! Tell him all about it.

[k9quaint]

@drlukacs

Nottm28's take on the subject revolves around the right to refuse service by a retail establishment and that Xian was complaining about BFL on public forums.

Here are his relevant posts on the subject:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207331.msg2271285#msg2271285
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207331.msg2270639#msg2270639
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207331.msg2266057#msg2266057

After thinking about it for a bit, I don't think a business can force a refund on you after your purchase without incurring some sort of liability.

Nottm28 left the thread for a time and missed the discussion on contract law. I would recommend that he read a few pages, but I wouldn't wish that on another human being.

Yes I sleep and have a life. Speed read the posts and found little of interest.

Fair enough. I was not casting aspersions. I just noted that the conversation had moved forward since your last post.

[PuertoLibre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

[MooC Tals]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

wow