Bulls be like haha no one cares about China. Moon.
Bears be like just the last pump before the single digit dump.
Whether a bear or a bull, at some point this train is going to be leaving whether china is on board or NOT. Or is that, just me seeing this matter in terms of bullish tinted glasses? Take for example that we are really getting close to the 10th.. and the market has to account for all the chinese who had wanted to get out have already gotten out. The only chinese left into BTC are the bullish ones. Therefore, let's get this train going forth with whoever happens to be on board. |
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The whole thing is still within the bounds of "extreme incompetence is indistinguishable from malice" so that if the cleaning lady was pilfering on her own account, there needs to be no other malignant actor in the game. It sure felt paranoid at that time, because I had no reason to expect extreme incompetence (nor malice, of course) from a hotel that I had patroned for over 10 years.
As a comparison, Hotel Kämp, which is the only $2,000+ hotel in Finland, also failed in many counts, but I had no reason to expect better, so it was not suspicious, just sad. (And yes, Justin Bieber occupied the small room just next to us.)
This description just shows that Rpietila was and still seems to be incapable of accepting responsibility for his own actions. His action relates to how many BTC he would potentially put at jeaopardy. You gotta expect that some staff or cleaning ladies to be irresponsible and possibly even malice.. so safeguards should have been taken regarding the coins. |
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It means he counted them but had no idea how many there were supposed to be  That is a good way of putting it. A guy who is supposedly and outward appearing to be so meticulous in his accounting does NOT know how many BTC he had.  |
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I'm curious. What actually happened? (about the lost coins / laptop / sauna / beach / moon)
This is the gist of it. It's implied that some number of coins were lost but it's unknown if they were recovered. There's more if you have a look at this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=174620.0Translated text from Finnish original added in blue in front of original text (thank you rebuilder):..... -The staff of the hotel had entered the sauna space on at least 3 separate occasions in the first 24 hours alone, of a sauna reservation of 59 hours length in total, despite prior agreement to the contrary, it being clearly mentioned in the daily order [that the sauna is not to be entered at will, I presume] and repeated reminders of this. Some of the entries happened when we were not guarding the sauna since we had been asked to retire to our rooms by 24:00 at the latest, although the sauna was in our uninterrupted use from thursday 10:00 to saturday 23:00. Already on friday 10.5 between 00 and 12 o'clock personal items belonging to conference participants had gone missing from the sauna. Additionally the sauna had been cleaned, so that our ability to discover the full amount of lost/stolen property immediately as the conference was still ongoing was weakened. The main host of the conference (Pietilä) ordered an internal preliminary investigation on the matter on fri. 10.5. at approx. 18 hours. He used as personnel mainly himself and acting host ["responsible/trustee host"] Roni Blomberg, a hotel employee by the name of "Butler Charlotta" and a representative of the maintenance company, "Mikke". By approximately 8 o'clock saturday morning, the preliminary investigation led to the understanding at least 1 bitcoin worth of property had been lost (repurchase value of identifiably lost items), but private keys possibly used to store bitcoins had been copied/destroyed to a greater extent. Among other things, Pietilä's Macbook Air computer was at the sauna for the entire night, thursday-friday 9.-10.5 Our estimate of the upper bound of damages is 100000 bitcoins (market value approx. 9,1 million euro, repurchase value with immediate market operation approx. 10,2 million euro). Damages are divided in two parts, copied and lost bitcoin private keys. For copied private keys the situation can be sorted out by transferring all the bitcoins of all the participants to different addresses, at which point we weill see, whether they have in the meantime been unrightfully spent. Finding this out must happen a soon as possible (if private keys have been saved, no financial loss will be caused, unless they are unrightfully used before the legal owner transfers them to a new, safe address). Due to the extremely strict security requirements of handling private keys required to use large amounts of bitcoins, the operation is however labour-intensive and carrying it out must be done by each participant such, that most of the work can not be delegated. For example an inventory of bitcoins of Pietilä and the companies he owns/leads requires about 16 hors of work to complete. Pietilä's own consulting fees (list price http://hopea.fi/bitcoin-kurssihistoria/) in April have varied between 600-2400 euro. This is one of the most urgent tasks, which will override most other markings in Pietilä's calendar for the week 13.-19.5. The sum of money lost due to loss of private keys can not be reliably found out, but we believe the participants will notice if the sum rises to the thousands of bitcoins. This will be found out in about a week (a week is also our ETA for finding out the sum total of stolen bitcoins). .... Risto Pietilä. Now I try hard to minimize the risk to the well-being of anyone, and to raise the stakes in the game described as follows: if someone actually copied the private keys there (I had access to over 6000 bitcoins unencrypted, open in my computer browser windows during the time it was compromised), he will have to suffer the fact becoming public in its entirety + all the details, if he spends the bitcoins before I have the time to spend them myself. Due to extensive precautions involved, it will take me approximately a week of calendar time + several thousand dollars, to fully ensure that the bitcoins are safe, by sending them to uncompromised addresses. I plan to concentrate on that during this week.
Wow!!! This is quite the story. To me, the descriptive nature of the story seems to show that rpietila is capable of a considerable amount of engagement in drama, denial of responsibility and engaging in sloppy safeguarding practices... .... Certainly, we cannot judge anyone's character based on one incident, and a lot of things happen in the day to day lives of people; however the potential of having anywhere between 6,000 and 100,000 bitcoins in jeopardy in May 2013 is quite amazing in itself. |
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I'm curious. What actually happened? (about the lost coins / laptop / sauna / beach / moon)
coins / laptop / sauna & beach they ALL went to da moon Like a puzzle to attempt to resolve |
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Like the coins that you allegedly lost by taking an unsecured laptop to an sauna party, where it got stolen.
Source? Not sure if your intention is to troll the troll, but to be fair I read that post of yours too last year. Another reason why the forum should NOT allow the editing of posts or the removal of posts, except under exceptional circumstances. |
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Some things that should be obvious to anyone who has lived for a while in the real world:
* Once you find that someone told a flat out lie (such as "MtGOX is solvent and all your coins are safe"), you should not give ANY weight to absolutely ANYTHING he has said or will say, by voice or in writing. Ditto for any digital data that he may produce.
* Any digital document or database may have been altered or faked. Yes, even cryptographically signed ones..
* An anonymous leak may have been leaked by ANYONE. Yes, even by that guy. Or that other guy.
* When a huge pile of money disappears from inside a company, the first suspects are its top executives, then other staff, then outsiders, then the cat, then time-traveling lizards from an antimatter galaxy, and only lastly errors/bugs/accidents etc..
* Scammers ALWAYS sound and look honest, competent, reliable, etc. If they didn't, they wouldn't be scammers.
* Someone who made a pile of money with a scam, and walked away free with it, is strongly motivated to do it again.
* If someone can pocket a large pile of money without any risk of concrete punishment, he most surely will.
Well, as I keep saying, the matter is in the hands of the Japanese court to weigh the various risks and likelihood of various outcomes. As my current impression, I think that some form of rehabilitation of GOX would be better than liquidation, but if the rehabilitation proposals do NOT appear to be legit, then liquidation may be the better course of action. I certainly do NOT have enough facts to make such a judgement, even though from what i read there are some pretty decent rehabilitation proposals out there that I believe have been proposed to the japanese court.. I could not find anywhere the details of the proposal - but how can they recover 650,000 BTC lost? My understanding of the GOX rehabilitation plan is that about $10 million would be spent to conduct an investigation presumably to figure out what happened to various GOX assets and to recover any GOX assets, if such assets, such as BTC, are recoverable. I presume the same would apply to fiat that may have disappeared and other assets or if it appears that some of these assets are in the hands of previous owners. I agree that the details remain a bit murky. There have been a few criticisms of such a proposed investigation into Gox: 1) Such an investigation should NOT cost $10 million - actually, it may be true that such an investigation could be accomplished for less than $10 million, but if a serious investigation without limitations were to take place (which I highly doubt), such an investigation could well be worth $10 million to be carried out properly. 2) Such GOX investigation may NOT be carried out genuinely b/c either the agreement (court order) may preclude a full investigation by placing limitations on such investigation or the incoming Gox saviors may be coming in with bad intentions. - it seems very possible that the court may agree to enter into a limited agreement that would set parameters and limitation on the investigation or preclude investigating into certain company heads, such as Karpeles, yet I am NOT sure if there are real meaningful and/or tangible alternatives. For example, I am NOT sure if the court has the power to hold Karpeles in a cell (to my knowledge, he has NOT been charged with any crime) until he cooperates or if there would be a way to get someone else, who was also high up in Gox to show where the bodies are buried. I doubt the liquidation process will require or even allow for any meaningful investigation. It may be practically difficult to get Karpeles or other higher ups in GOX to agree to some meaningful investigation - whether they need to agree seems to be a product of Japanese law, which seems quite deferential to corporate leaders - I am NOT sure how to decipher bad intents of those coming in to save GOX, but the court should have some powers to set parameters and possibly even to retain some supervisory power over this transition. Whether they exercise such powers seems doubtful b/c it would seem that the court may just want to figure out one way or another to quickly dispose of the matter (whether by liquidation or by rehab). Seems that the court would NOT want to continue to be involved, if possible. Any thorough and comprehensive investigation should be able to trace a lot more specifics about what happened to the 650K BTC and should be able to inform about whether those BTC are recoverable or NOT. I really doubt that a thorough and comprehensive investigation is going to take place. Yet, I believe that the intention of the Save GOX plan is that in the worst case scenario that NONE of the 650K BTC are recoverable, then those 650K BTC would be earned back through the operation of the exchange in the next 10-20 years. Surely, there are quite a few puzzles, including the fact that it is NOT clear about whether investors are going to be paid back in fiat or BTC ... which causes additional disputes regarding the pay back, if any, could be prolonged over several years. In spite of these many uncertainties in the direction of the Rehab, if it were to occur, it seems to me that rehab (as opposed to liquidation) would be a much better course of action for the customers of GOX and for bitcoin as a whole. |
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You should head into the #mtgox-talk irc channel to find out all the details of sunlot and their plans. It stinks to be honest.
They also want to spend $10mm on the investigation of the 'theft'.
Why does the sunlot plan stink b/c 1) past customers are going to get scammed, 2) Mark Karples Et al will NOT be held to justice, 3) sunlot is going to run off with GOX assets without bringing any value, and/or 4) some other reason? Does it stink worse than liquidation? Is there a better plan? |
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I understand that there are mixed feelings about what a rehabilitation of Gox may mean to bitcoin, but really your summary seems to be building too much negative into the proposed settlement. I believe that they had put up a real decent FAQ when they were proposing to save gox.... Yeah, NO one really wants to continue to get Goxed... but a rehab of GOX may be better than a liquidation. Better for those who had money in GOX and better for bitcoin as a whole.. that is if the rehab does NOT turn out to be some major sham, as you seem to be suggesting. |
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In another thread people are arguing that SecondMarket's BIT fund only buys bitcoins on Thursdays. That could be wrong (perhaps they merely update their accounting weekly on Thursdays). I believe that it would be a bad business practice for any big player trader to publicly disclose any exact details of its buy/sell pattern ahead of time. Accordingly, the logic does NOT make sense that any big player trader would engage in such a before-hand disclosure of such. Maybe, but they have been buying less than 2000 BTC per week on average. Does that make them "big players", enough to influence the market price? I am making the statement of best business practice as a general principle, and the point that I was making is NOT really whether they are big enough to affect the market, but whether other traders will time their trading behavior based on Second Market's announced behavior. Even 50BTC a week may be considered big, if you know that it is going to take place every week at a specific time. |
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In another thread people are arguing that SecondMarket's BIT fund only buys bitcoins on Thursdays. That could be wrong (perhaps they merely update their accounting weekly on Thursdays). But, assuming that the conjecture is true, here is a theory for the "Thursday dumps": SMBIT are said to buy opportunistically from various sources, but only if and when some investor buys their shares. Perhaps miners and other habitual SMBIT sources hold their bitcoins until Thursday waiting for a possible SMBIT call, and when that doesn't materialize they sell them on market instead. (OK, ok, but it this still not the silliest theory on this thread, is it?) I believe that it would be a bad business practice for any big player trader to publicly disclose any exact details of its buy/sell pattern ahead of time. Accordingly, the logic does NOT make sense that any big player trader would engage in such a before-hand disclosure of such. |
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what a fucking joke, the last couple of days some of you were crying all around the place about the rounding up and about Bitstamp ripping customers off, and most of you agreed on the $5 min order, in fact most of you said it should minimize the effect, but today you are crying again about them doing what you wished for !!!!! what the heck is wrong with people  Too much coffee, huh? By my count, 3 out of 4 posts here welcome the decision. Maybe he got his numbers from another thread? I think I saw a thread related to this bitstamp move earlier davout is pissing me off on the other thread, but we all know why What other thread? Thnx Mmitech. Personally, I like the $5 minimum trade solution - mostly b/c I am a little bit irritated by bots... he he he... |
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what a fucking joke, the last couple of days some of you were crying all around the place about the rounding up and about Bitstamp ripping customers off, and most of you agreed on the $5 min order, in fact most of you said it should minimize the effect, but today you are crying again about them doing what you wished for !!!!! what the heck is wrong with people Too much coffee, huh? By my count, 3 out of 4 posts here welcome the decision. Maybe he got his numbers from another thread? I think I saw a thread related to this bitstamp move earlier davout is pissing me off on the other thread, but we all know why What other thread? |
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I didn't say a word about China. This is strictly technical. The end of a trend needs to be marked with an increase in volume.
I would not wait for an increase in volume, I don't think it will ever come. Mt Gox ruined that trust, these exchanges are just too amatuer. Nobody feels comfortable putting large amounts of fiat/coins into them anymore. Large buyers and sellers will wait for institutional level exchanges, and in the meantime the buying will happen through Second Market, dark pools, and directly from miners. There won't be an uptick in volume on Bitstamp, the stream of coins coming in for sale will slowly dwindle as the off chain buying increases. You will wait for large volume, but suddenly there will hardly be any coins for sale. Buying on Stamp-level exchanges will be for small fish and last-resort larger traders. Nailed it. So what happens to price under this scenario? Price slowly trickles upward due to lack of coins, without volume? It will trickle slowly at first, because experienced bitcoin traders will scoff at such a low volume rally. Then panic will grow as they notice that the sell walls are not being replaced. Price will then rocket on the low volume of traders who still use these exchanges. The hole these traders will be trying to fit through will be much smaller than anticipated because large buyers have cut off the stream of coins for sale nearer to the source. I really do NOT have any significant dispute with the practice that you are describing; however, I remain concerned that BTC prices seem to continue to be set by the exchanges. Accordingly, it remains easy and inexpensive to transfer BTC around, including quickly transferring BTC to any exchange, and if there is NOT much fiat on these various exchanges, the BTC that is transferred onto the exchanges can purposefully be used to manipulate BTC prices downward. So, even though it may NOT be profitable to sell the BTC on the exchange at the lowered price, BTC could be bought off of the exchanges at the purposefully lowered exchange price. Hopefully someday soon BTC price can be reflected by overall supply and demand of BTC rather than price manipulation that seems to be based on the ease of moving BTC as compared with the difficulties and expense in moving fiat. |
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I didn't say a word about China. This is strictly technical. The end of a trend needs to be marked with an increase in volume.
I would not wait for an increase in volume, I don't think it will ever come. Mt Gox ruined that trust, these exchanges are just too amatuer. Nobody feels comfortable putting large amounts of fiat/coins into them anymore. Large buyers and sellers will wait for institutional level exchanges, and in the meantime the buying will happen through Second Market, dark pools, and directly from miners. There won't be an uptick in volume on Bitstamp, the stream of coins coming in for sale will slowly dwindle as the off chain buying increases. You will wait for large volume, but suddenly there will hardly be any coins for sale. Buying on Stamp-level exchanges will be for small fish and last-resort larger traders. Nailed it. So what happens to price under this scenario? Price slowly trickles upward due to lack of coins, without volume? |
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I keep waiting and waiting for my cheap coins and dumbass politicians do something to convince the world that they are going to screw up everything they can screw up and Bitcoin is needed more than ever.
The waiting is over: JPMorgan Shut Down A World-Famous Economist's Bank Account With No Warning http://www.businessinsider.com/jpm-shuts-down-ocampos-bank-account-2014-5 Heh, this JP Morgan Chase thing is fascinating. They are shutting down "high risk" accounts, which essentially translates to anyone not meeting the status quo, I guess. The definition of "high risk" is probably going to become really fuzzy soon (more so than now), as they realize that it's in their best interest to freeze pretty much any account. High balance accounts provide them with free liquidity which they can play with until the entire process is resolved, while low balance accounts threaten to take them in the red otherwise, and have their own maintenance costs associated. The best part is, it's all state sanctioned! They've essentially made themselves immune to a bank run, at the cost of perhaps driving away some customers to the competition. But what are customers during a run on banks? Liabilities. With quantitative easing and fractional reserve banking, they really do NOT need customers. We are redundant, and that is one of the reasons why they charge us to use their bank and to keep our money there or possibly, if we are lucky and keep large sums of money with them, they will pay us .001% interest on our balances. |
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Seems like a losing strategy to wait for the best possible price to buy BTC. Seems better (and safer) to buy BTC as the price is going down. Even though you may NOT minimize your average price per BTC, at least you will NOT be chasing the price up or be left at the train station.
Translation: Contrary to the advice of almost every experienced trader, trying to call the bottom is a good idea. *edit* And I bought a lot of bitcoin at much higher price and desperately need the support of greater fools. Your "translation" makes LITTLE to NO sense, and seems to be an attempt to be argumentative b/c you seem to be butt hurt that BTC is NOT going to zero or to double digits or anywhere near those prices that you have been projecting. You seem to have unrealistic and overly pessimistic views about the long term potentials for BTC, which makes me wonder why you participate in this thread? Are you trying to "save" us from bitcoin or do you merely get joy in the spreading of FUD? My comment in the above post is NOT based on my own position in BTC. I am saying what I believe to be a good BTC investment strategy for someone who wants to get into BTC. In sum, invest in BTC on the way down, b/c currently BTC prices are good and inevitably in the medium term they will be going up (likely this calendar year or even within the coming months). I am NEITHER biased by NOR worried about my own position in BTC (currently average buy-in price of $599) either b/c I am in BTC long, and I have considerable confidence that BTC is on its way up, at least in the next couple of years (or sooner) and that fairly easily BTC prices will go above my average buy-in price of $599. Accordingly, I feel that I do NOT need to convince anyone else to buy into BTC b/c it seems very likely that BTC prices will be going up - NO matter what I say.. As you may or may NOT have heard, there is network momentum with BTC that will likely continue to cause exponential growth in BTC prices - whether that growth is 10x (as it has been historically in the last 4 years) or 2x (which is more modest), I am fairly confident that some form of exponential growth in BTC will continue to take place. I am more inclined to think that exponential growth will be 2x to 5x in the next few years rather than 10x, as it had been. Yet, my investment in BTC does NOT rely upon exponential growth b/c I invested only as much as I am willing to lose. I would be completely happy with BTC performance that beats my average stock index fund returns (which is about 6% per year), yet in my view, even if BTC does NOT meet or beat that 6% per year, for me, it remains a diversified investment in my portfolio that is worth the risk b/c of a considerable upside potential. You are a fool who wastes many words. And, you are profound and pithy. I'm impressed.  |
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Seems like a losing strategy to wait for the best possible price to buy BTC. Seems better (and safer) to buy BTC as the price is going down. Even though you may NOT minimize your average price per BTC, at least you will NOT be chasing the price up or be left at the train station.
Translation: Contrary to the advice of almost every experienced trader, trying to call the bottom is a good idea. *edit* And I bought a lot of bitcoin at much higher price and desperately need the support of greater fools. Your "translation" makes LITTLE to NO sense, and seems to be an attempt to be argumentative b/c you seem to be butt hurt that BTC is NOT going to zero or to double digits or anywhere near those prices that you have been projecting. You seem to have unrealistic and overly pessimistic views about the long term potentials for BTC, which makes me wonder why you participate in this thread? Are you trying to "save" us from bitcoin or do you merely get joy in the spreading of FUD? My comment in the above post is NOT based on my own position in BTC. I am saying what I believe to be a good BTC investment strategy for someone who wants to get into BTC. In sum, invest in BTC on the way down, b/c currently BTC prices are good and inevitably in the medium term they will be going up (likely this calendar year or even within the coming months). I am NEITHER biased by NOR worried about my own position in BTC (currently average buy-in price of $599) either b/c I am in BTC long, and I have considerable confidence that BTC is on its way up, at least in the next couple of years (or sooner) and that fairly easily BTC prices will go above my average buy-in price of $599. Accordingly, I feel that I do NOT need to convince anyone else to buy into BTC b/c it seems very likely that BTC prices will be going up - NO matter what I say.. As you may or may NOT have heard, there is network momentum with BTC that will likely continue to cause exponential growth in BTC prices - whether that growth is 10x (as it has been historically in the last 4 years) or 2x (which is more modest), I am fairly confident that some form of exponential growth in BTC will continue to take place. I am more inclined to think that exponential growth will be 2x to 5x in the next few years rather than 10x, as it had been. Yet, my investment in BTC does NOT rely upon exponential growth b/c I invested only as much as I am willing to lose. I would be completely happy with BTC performance that beats my average stock index fund returns (which is about 6% per year), yet in my view, even if BTC does NOT meet or beat that 6% per year, for me, it remains a diversified investment in my portfolio that is worth the risk b/c of a considerable upside potential. |
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Isn't it 1h am in china ? They don't sleep ?
usually things append around 8h am chinese time no ?
We are ignoring China now. They can join us or get left behind.  I don't think so. High volume on all the exchanges. yes, now, but when I look the charts, it seems that the last big dump moove were in the morning around 6-8h am chinese time...And usually quite at this evening time... May the gravity law be the stronger, I want to buy some coins at good price before I die ! It could very well be a "good price" right now. Please no ! I'm loosing my hair ! Was about to buy at 420 ( trigger at 403 ) And I'm waiting for a good pump...Is it make me what you call a bear ( beer ? ) EDIT : waiting for a dump, not a pump. Seems like a losing strategy to wait for the best possible price to buy BTC. Seems better (and safer) to buy BTC as the price is going down. Even though you may NOT minimize your average price per BTC, at least you will NOT be chasing the price up or be left at the train station. |
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PBOC can't kill bitcoin. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
I agree with this, but in the short term that which doesn't kill you makes you cheaper. I used to agree with this, until a few years ago. I no longer believe that statement to be true. |
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