Really depends what you're testing. If you're testing a cooling solution that's one thing--which appears to be what's happening with this picture. They're not saying the chip itself every gets to 125C, but they're saying if it did here's the thermal result based on cooling. At least, that's the most generous way to read the situation. But it's also plausible and even probable if we assume that KNC isn't full of idiots.

That's what I think we're seeing, yes. Who knows the origin of this picture too, it may be a simulation not even provided by KNC but by the documentation around the cooling solution itself.

That makes sense. So the chip survives with this cooling solution at worst case scenario under normal temp conditions.

He's paying his own NRE, right? So he won't be taking money until he's already proved he has working units in hand.

Although, why anyone who can finance their NRE and units would sell to the public at all is beyond me. That's the point where you become a private server farm.

If the dude didn't get it in writing or on video, then he's taking a risk.

Considering that it's being served digitally, changing the rule would be as simple as pulling it up on a smartphone and crossing out that line, sending it to your visitor who then signs it. A 30 second transaction, thus there's no need to rely on verbal commitments and risk death.

In any case, I doubt any independent court would consider it reasonable to shoot someone for having their shoes on. And neither would any guest. If some dude had that rule, whose house you wanted to enter, you'd probably think him insane and refuse to enter in any case.

No, completely optional. If you are public access it's going to be public anyway and that's the scenario I see using that for. If it's a private residence, do it on a case by case basis privately where it's manageable, or w/e.

Communism? Please.

Hey, hey, calm down. They offered a full refund. In bitcoin for god's sake. If you're still in the queue you've made your choice. And they gave 4 days, not 2. Longer would've been preferable but it is what it is.

This is far, far better than what BFL pulled, ending refunds because they'd "shipped" one device. How many thousands of customers does BFL have that will -never- ROI now. At least there's still a chance with your Avalons.

Why do that and achieve only a support and shipping headache? It costs a lot more to support and ship a $70 device than a $7000 device, because the former has 100 times the number of customers compared to the latter on a dollar-by-dollar basis. If you want to turn them into BFL, then yeah, keep suggesting it.

We've got info on KNC's die size and the like, how about an update to the OP?

Won't happen for a couple reasons. One, they don't want the shipping and support headache of having thousands of customers buying a cheap device. Secondly, their chip isn't conducive to USB mining--it's large, huge power draw and heat-spreading needs. The two philosophies go hand in hand.

Thought about that but it's really doubtful. Freezing air coming in at 25F? Nah. We could use an explanation from Knc on what this represents and what's being assumed in this simulation, but I doubt it's that.

Might it be worst-case, maximum-overclock, and possibly ignoring the function of the heat-pipes entirely.

See where it says 'time to delivery,' that uses the historical difficulty increase to predict difficulty out two months. It's true that KNC shipping in Sept will be an above average boost to the difficulty that will be offset a bit by people stopping mining with less efficient hardware but not that much. So, this chart actually represents a best-case scenario of sorts, with 130 days ROI being optimistic. This is yet another reason why I obtained a refund.

Well, again check the 'time to delivery field.' It's zero for the top calculation for the avalon, and two months for the KNC calc.

Naw, it's accounting for that using historical average, which may be high or low but at least is something.

Doubtful. I see no reason why a 4 would be delayed over 3's.

This is what a car-crash looks like when it's on the scale of an economy and political system the size of the US, it takes years, precipitates as various unforeseen crises. And what always results in the final crash is when the leadership in charge at the time of the crash seeks to alleviate a problem with a fix that either makes the problem worse (ie: the don't understand what caused the problem in the first place) or makes one of the other existing problems worse, resulting in systemic crisis and ultimately crash.

You look at someone like Bernanke and he's at least partially aware of the game. Even still he's inflating to all hell under political pressure and due to his Keynesian beliefs, without realizing that it is fiscal pumping that creates the very bubbles he's trying to avoid the down-sides of.

There is no avoiding the down-sides, only pushing them out further in time until they are unavoidable. The market is addicted to easy money, and when that policy ends, as it must, things will get very, very ugly.

QE cannot become the new normal, as some are saying it will be. QE99? It's a dream, peeps.

I can only assume you haven't been paying attention We are in the death-throes / birth-pangs now. Look at Europe. Look at the '08 crash. Crises will begin to hit with increasing frequency until what stability remains fails. The dollar losing reserve currency status will happen at one point and be the likely coup de grace, and China will probably engineer it.

When the dollar crashes you know what will happen? People will flee into hard assets, just like the people in  Argentina are doing now.

And one of the most desirable hard assets at that point will be bitcoin.

Ever bought a house for one or a few bitcoin? There's a good chance you'll be able to do so within your lifetime if the US face fiscal crisis of dollar-crashing magnitude.

Yeah, but even without Knc, Avalon has sold sooo many chips. I mean, you'd def ROI by the time most of those get going, but still. Knc is the major wildcard it seems to me.

So can anyone tell us what the heck this is and means?

Wow, 600 bitcoin for 8 units? That's ~500gigahash/sec. ~23% on your investment, which isn't bad if the diff pans out, for sure, although the amount of time needed to achieve ROI based on expected diff increase of 130 days is why I pulled out, because if KNC ships these may never ROI.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't ask for a refund given how tough ROI looks right now. I guess we all have our different assessments of how quickly difficulty is set to increase right about now.



I look at 600 bitcoin and I see 10 KNC Jupiter miners at 400gh/sec each, that's 4 terahash total and looks like so:



Assuming they do ship in September that's like 400% on your money, with a much more efficient chip as well.

Well, no doubt you know what you're doing! I wish you luck, sir

I did. And yes.

This is the trap of thinking we can hire better politicians.

The reason the outcome is always the same isn't because of good or bad people in politics necessarily, but rather that the system has constraints and incentives built into it, and this is why politicians tend to act as they do, and this won't change unless the incentives on politicians are changed, and that can only happen by a completely structural change in the system, by something radical like abandoning democracy. Trying merely to elect benevolent masters doesn't change the fact that they are being continually given illegitimate and arbitrary power over everyone. That they haven't yet chosen to create a total tyranny with the power given to them is purely due to momentum and tradition, and is slowly chipped away at every year and every election and every crisis.

We have a political system which is predicated on communalistic principles and thus tends towards communalism over time, regardless of the people running the system the structure itself is communalistic and will continue to produce communalist outcomes as time goes on. Isn't that after all why we went from Social Security to Obamacare. There was no major legal change needed in the constitution to make that happen, only the collection of enough political power and will to force it through.

Course not, but if you have a system falling off a cliff you can either try to save it and risk going down with it, most likely, or you can start a new society elsewhere. When Rome fell other societies were still on the way up, naturally.

Society is, sure, we derive many benefits from associating together, naturally. But it doesn't have to be in any one place. People have this attachment to the idea of America, but that idea is in today's world largely an anachronism. "Home of the free?" Hardly.

True, tho we were discussing longevity, and when it comes to that the game is gh/joule. The other major factor in mining longevity is the price of bitcoin. If it doubles before your miner is unprofitable on electricity costs, then that increases the amount of time you can profitably mine as X efficiency.