What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective.
Im all for privacy and anonymity, but there's always a downside. Who would pay for the welfare for the people that really need it (because some do really need it). If nothing is public anymore, how in hell would that be deal with? I don't see it would work in a 100% anonymous individual society.
G.E. coins are “spent” into existence in input-less transactions. Accordingly, civil society can (at least, in part) dictate monetary policy. sendtoaddress [address] [balance + amount]
I was not asking about the money aspect (monero handles this) or the internet aspect (TPTB and I2p are working on this), I'm asking about the political handbook, the plan, the way people get involved, excited, empowered to fight off the shackles of control systems.... It's a question, not shill-bait. |
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I hear you, americanpegasus! Bitcoin is another important component asset to own "Financial Asset Diversification 101" shows us. F.A.D. also teaches us not to put all of our eggs into one basket, not even the Bitcoin one.
Yes, I have done business with BTC, just check out Veldt Gold's thread here.
Bitcoin and gold complement each other wonderfully.
Bearings count as diversification too, for those so inclined.
Police love Bitcoin and that should tell you everything you need to know. coincenter.org/2015/05/how-can-law-enforcement-leverage-the-blockchain-in-investigations/What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective. |
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How many monero do I have? I guess someone can tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose, but they'll get my bank account info, cash, and precious metals, my wife, my dog..... There's no preventing this attack whatever coin you use. But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that.
The amount of your assets can be determined off the blockchain as well and would likely be investigated just like with btc. The point I am trying to make is using a coin specifically intended for better privacy does place you in the camp of users who are likely interested in better privacy which may expose you to extra scrutiny. But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that.
Not a very useful currency if you cannot advertise that you accept it and don't ask to pay In it and don't discuss it openly. I agree with your first point--my point is that any currency can suffer this fate if it is viewed as "unwanted" by TPTB--it isn't a matter of group size as the Nazis proved with wealth seizures and the US government proved with gold bans. The only thing a privacy coin can do is be private on chain, the rest is up to you. In this case i can create an off-chain wallet and fill it with coins bought through I2p/tor using best practices (not revealing an IP) and no one will know the asset I hold or how much. Asking any more of a privacy coin is asking it to control the human actions involved too. The second point misses that black market channels will still be available, and if we are living in this type of draconian control environment, many will only use monero as a wealth protecting asset. The fact that this kind of environment is being talked about as normal (even being taken for granted) should give some insight on how far we've come to the Orwellian idea of thought criminals--asset criminals isn't that big of a step towards the quicksand of full-fledged control systems. |
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Now you are just being disingenuous. I have given you a clear and a specific example that you refuse to acknowledge and are deflecting by discussing blockchain analysis more. No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals. How many monero do I have? I guess someone can tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose, but they'll get my bank account info, cash, and precious metals, my wife, my dog..... There's no preventing this attack whatever coin you use. But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that. |
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Unless a viewkey gives permissions, the addresses are stealth and have no link to a particular transaction or a user's balance information, so I'm not sure I get your point about possible addresses to investigate or how off-chain surveillance affects any user not involved....
You are conflating separate attack vectors. You currently talk about, invest in, and promote Monero. This makes you a bit more interesting to focus upon the average bitcoin user. Just like how I am more of a target than the average fiat only user. Oh, like using richlists? moneroblocks.eu/richlist |
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Based on the current laws, Monero's viewkey allows you to be compliant
Fair point, I will concede that is better as more privacy is default and transparency is optional. as for attention and scrutiny from a source you don't want looking at your finances (competitors, LEA, hackers, mobsters, your wife, husband, ect.) the whole point of a privacy coin is that extra scrutiny means extra time wasted by them.
No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals. Notice how I suggest this could merely be a temporary dilemma because if large parts of society start using Monero or other cryptonote coins than the userbase gets diluted with normal and boring transactions. In the interim this ironic problem is a real concern. Cryptonote coins don't spread taint quicker, they erase it--that's the difference.
It certainly isn't erasing the taint when an investigator has a group of possible addresses to investigate just like with coinjoin/coinshuffle, especially if your possible txs are coming from a group of individuals really concerned about privacy. Unless a viewkey gives permissions, the addresses are stealth and have no link to a particular transaction or a user's balance information, so I'm not sure I get your point about possible addresses to investigate or how off-chain surveillance affects any user not involved.... |
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The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. T
This makes no sense as bitcoin transactions that seek anonymity--mixers, coinjoin, ect.--would and are being tagged by bitcoin analytic software. The difference here is fungibility: 1 xmr = 1 xmr and 1 untainted btc = 1 untainted btc, but 1 tainted btc doesn't always equal 1 untainted btc--ask the guys who robbed evolution or ask block trail mint (they are selling freshly mined btc at a premium). Monero has a viewkey if you want to be compliant, bitcoin has complicated measures to attempt to be non-compliant that may or may not be effective depending on who's watching. The mere act of accepting and transacting in a privacy coin could draw greater attention and scrutiny to the users(unless it became more mainstream than other cryptocoins that aren't mainly focused on privacy) . Fungibility is an interesting and subtle difference and a unique feature of crypto-note coins where they "spread" taint quicker between all active users and therefore newly minted crypto-note cryptocoins wouldn't fetch as much of a premium when the market grows to a larger level. I believe the slight premium fetched by virgin BTC is temporary and will decrease/evaporate as better privacy tools come online and more btc is tainted with higher volume of txs , especially when decentralized marketplaces grow and high amounts of BTC gets exchanged with both legal and illegal businesses. Based on the current laws, Monero's viewkey allows you to be compliant--as for attention and scrutiny from a source you don't want looking at your finances (competitors, LEA, hackers, mobsters, your wife, husband, ect.) the whole point of a privacy coin is that extra scrutiny means extra time wasted by them. Cryptonote coins don't spread taint quicker, they erase it--that's the difference. I think it's chimerical that you think that the technology that exposes bitcoin's fungibility flaws wont keep pace with those that haven't yet fixed them--i guess the future is whatever you want it to be.... |
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The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. T
This makes no sense as bitcoin transactions that seek anonymity--mixers, coinjoin, ect.--would and are being tagged by bitcoin analytic software. The difference here is fungibility: 1 xmr = 1 xmr and 1 untainted btc = 1 untainted btc, but 1 tainted btc doesn't always equal 1 untainted btc--ask the guys who robbed evolution or ask block trail mint (they are selling freshly mined btc at a premium). Monero has a viewkey if you want to be compliant, bitcoin has complicated measures to attempt to be non-compliant that may or may not be effective depending on who's watching. |
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Monero will not break in the mainstream. Quote me on this tomorrow, in six months, two years and one hundred years.
and why do you think that so? some arguments please! Arguments isn't needed. Or it shouldn't be anyway. It's pretty obvious. Indulge us with the obvious, please. |
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just write a narrative of the diagram following the numbers. I've never tried this, here goes
1. from the blockchain, a transactions public key is mashed together with a random number
2. a specific output is used
3. bobs private key is used
4. the above three things are mashed together into a private key
5. another random number mashes with a public key
6. number 5 gets mashed with the following
and I got lost and im at work and peeps gettin coffee.
let me give it a try  Bob wants to spend XMR he received in his account and send it to Carol. How does he compase the transaction? A: Bob gets acces to his "real input" that was send to his "stealth address" 1. Bob needs the public key from the transaction that contains the output he received and wants to send 2. Bob also selects the exact number of the output from the transaction that contains the output he wants to send. The other output(s) in this transaction is/are change (Bob doesn't have the private key for those other outputs) 3. Bob needs the "master" private key of his account 4. 1,2 and 3 are used to calculate the private key for the specific output he wants to send. (the public key for the transaction can be calculated from this private key) B: to protects Carol's identity, Bob will do the folowing to generate a "one time" public key for this transaction, making it impossible for others to link all transactions send to Carol to the same "stealth address" 5. Bob generates a random number 6. this random number is hashed into the transaction public key 7. he selects the number associated with the output that Carol will receive, the other output(s) is/are change that goes back to Bob. 8. he needs the "master" public key from Carol to be able to send it to her stealth address 9. 6,7 and 8 are used to calulate the public key for the specific output he wants to send C: to "mix" the inputs, Bob creates a ring signature 10. He selects the actual public key from the output he wants to send, but he also adds other public keys into the mix. 11. to prevent double spending, Bob needs to send a valid "key image" together with the public keys of the outputs. 12. he signs the combination of inputs and the key image with his private key, prooving the key image is valid (Bob owns the private key associated with the key image) and that (somehow? I don't know how this works) one of the public keys is used to generate this key image, but as a spectator of the blockchain, we can't know which of the used outputs is "the real one that is being transferred". 13. This is the collection of outputs that is signed. He grabbed the "fake ones" from the blockchain. He doesn't need permission from the owners for that. 14. This is the key image he signed. If Bob ever tries to send the same output again, the exact same key image will be generated and thus the double spend will be detected. 15. this "ring signature" is added to the transaction containing the publi keys that are used in the transaction and proving Bob's ownership of one of those inputs. tell me if I was terribly wrong  edit: damn it, luigiiii is faster than me  This voiced over an animation of the transaction would be a great guide to how a Monero transaction happens. |
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Bad news. If you thought that bitcointalk trolls were isolated in this forum, think again. They have recently started in invade http://www.reddit.com/r/moneroat least https://forum.getmonero.org/ seems safe for now and has been more active recently. Ignore the trolls! Fighting with them only leads to more trolling Unfortunately, if you think we are going to be free of trolls, it hasn't even begun yet, just look at a comment session about Bitcoin on a mainstream article... but the point of moving the conversation to /r/monero and the forums is so the mods can ban the trolls so people can actually have a conversation, think of it like our home, bitcointalk is a nobody's land. Is it just me, or do we have a discussion about trolls every week? I think I've seen enough trolling and discussion thereof that I'm ready to defend my doctorate in trollology This is nothing; the dollar, ruble and yen have whole countries of trolls prepared to go to war for them. And oil trolls! Forget about it--those MFrs rule the world. |
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Ok. And I repeat: to the lurkers/potential Monero investors do your own research, do not believe in threads or hype like this (op main post): What are you going to do with your Monero wealth once your coins hit upwards of $10,000 a pop? And the Monero people don't have a real working forum to work in his own currency. Go figure.  (excuse my grammar and vocabulary mistakes, english is my third language) The forum works fine. Just more traffic here on BCT, on r/monero and on github--I just go to that forum to find specific information and check on funding initiatives. Not sure why you think that is Monero's Achilles's heel, but I don't get a lot of things about dash supporters. |
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edited* the sun sets over friends their dreams--known and new rise a world of concrete double-yellow stripe where God(s) swallow selves in love cherish beauty mystery my serene acceptance flying a kite on a Sunday with you |
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So in the next 3-6 months where do the majority of you see the price of Monero heading? Additionally, what do you think the volume will be looking like?
probably more of the same for 6 months, then both going UP. just takes someone like Roger Ver to focus for 5 minutes on XMR maybe we should mail charlie shrem something to read about monero. IIRC, he is in jail now for selling BTC to a dark market guy, so plenty of time for him to read (this is a serious idea) Yup, great Idea to give this guy access in an anon coin... READ THIS. http://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shrem-sentenced-two-years-prison/Like worse criminals--El Chapo, et all--aren't going to use monero and other digital currencies to steamline international drug trafficking? If I was a drug lord, I'd be having wet dreams about ring signitures. Of course talking about it open channels probably isn't as smart as just doing it.* *Drugs are bad and shouldn't be endorsed by anyone other than the FDA. |
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Bitcoin is experiment. Litecoin and Monero are real future of crypto.
Litecoin is a joke. Monero could replace Bitcoin, but only if it develops an offline transaction signature platform.
NR 1 DEMAND IS SECURITY, YOU NEED TO HAVE COLD STORAGE TRANSACTION CAPABILITYOtherwise your altcoin is worth shit. Here's a start: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg11626658#msg11626658 |
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Well it's been a couple of months. Things are slow on the Monero development front, but the price has remained stable. I'm still plugging along, buying what Monero I can with my extra income and encouraging crypto-enthusaists to do the same. In an image that will surely be historic one day, we sit in 6th place behind a few unworthy opponents with some shining exceptions:  Bragging about being in sixth place crypto marketwise is equivalent to bragging about your site ranking top of page 8 in the Google index. ~BCX~ If you time-warp back a few months, you'll see that it's heading in the right direction--which I think is AP's point. Who knows, maybe someone will attack it again and prove how well it scales--that could bump it a couple more spots. Let's hope. |
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Anti-money folks have not given an explanation on how to efficiently produce anything absent the price mechanism.
Eg. pencil production consists of 80 phases, from assembling the machines used to mine graphite and fell trees (and the property rights to conduct such activities), to machine the pencils, pack, ship and distribute them for delivery to end customers. The decisions that people make to allocate the resources and intermediate goods, and the finished goods, and the information on supply and demand, are done on monetary terms.
Many supposedly bright minds have said that money (unit of account for financial calculations) can be done away with, but if they don't solve this issue, their world would not have pencils nor anything more complicated than that, because the production and distribution chain would be totally invalidated, and a tribal economy with organic food would result.
Even as we near zero marginal costs things will need to be able to compute energy and supply costs. Assuming we or AI do not discover unbounded renewable energies and materials or a new symbol to covet as as/more/somewhat important. |
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I've been using a variety of tumbling services but the taint analysis reveals them to be complete sh*t (with the exception of Helix...usually). I'm looking for a more full proof method. I'm skeptical of localbitcoin, and anyways live in an area that makes it difficult to find enough buyers/sellers. A number of threads have suggested exchanging BTC for crypto currencies such as litecoin, but I'm not certain how this method is any more secure than others. Does the exchange to a cryptocurrency and back to BTC (or my bank) completely break any trace on my coins? Is there another step I can put in there to improve security?
Looking for some advice - thanks in advance
Buy XMR, send it to wallet, send from wallet (mix-in 3+) to XMR.TO (automatic) or Shapeshift (another step) to send BTC. How are you keeping your IP private? |
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Why so much hate on Dash? You can say what you like, tech wise superiour to any other anon coin in my book...
Your book is wrong. I'd read another one. Good arguments As good as yours but here you go: Masternodes are human dependent points of failure that have as much business being in a crypto-system as a hole at the bottom of a bucket--keep on plugging it.  |
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