Unthinkingbit used to regularly grab all the content-pages using wget or something similar, so if it turns out not to be possible to get an archive of the actual database maybe we can still re-create the thing somehow from the pages he captured.

If at all possible though we should get an actual database-backup.

There is lots that can be done with this coin, from my point of view we totally failed to make good use of the ability to use bounties to get code and documentation created, and also failed to keep focus on a larger picture in which DeVCoin was just one of many intergalactic currencies which all interweave in a huge multifacted Galactic Milieu.

I used Devtome as a repository of documentation on the Milieu, and really if you think about it using it to document our projects ought actually to be one of the best ways for it to function as an advertising medium, since instead of intruding ads into the content the actual content would be one huge body of advertising documenting our entire huge multifacted weave of inter-related projects.

My plan was to have Freeciv worlds so that we could build marketplaces, banks and stock exchanges (standard city-improvements in civ-type games), and use Open Transactions to actually IMPLEMENT markets, banks and stock-exchanges, so that creating such things would be as "simple" as just building them in the game! Meanwhile also having both a text mode (CoffeeMUD) interface and a two-dimensional tile-type interface (Crossfire RPG) on an individual roleplaying character scale so people could walk individual characters around the cities to go visit the marketplaces, banks and stock exchanges and all the other interesting things that can be built in cities.

Then too, a three-dimensional immersive graphics interface (Open Simulator).

Just that much provides a huge amount of work that coders and artists could be paid in devcoin shares to produce, and huge amount of strategic planning to work out things like exactly how best to generate three dimensional views of crossfire maps and characters, how best to generate crossfire-scale maps of freeciv worlds and so on.

The idea is to use off the shelf free open source software as much as possible, and get any new code we need to be part of the main distros, such as by using bounties to get the developers to include little tweaks we might need to help facilitate making all those different projects all fit together and work together. Using standard distros of the softare means not having to have a whole bunch of custom hacks that keep having to re-do every time the main distro new version comes out.

Becaquse I have had decades of experience with the problem of economics clobbering large-scale game plans, I figured we start with the purely economic game of currences stocks shares and such, since we know from watching crypto-coin exchanges in action that there are plenty of "players" willing to pour lotgs of money into just the abstract finances aspect of the "game", heck for a lot of thse "players" having an actual charactger who walks across a city map, possibly getting attacked on the way, would not even be seen as a nice added feature of the "game", they LIKE it just bare-bones financial! Thus the oconomics of the game section located at http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=galactic_milieu#Economics

-MarkM-

I thought our forum was something along the lines of coinzen? Currently trying to figure out what forum we have other than this thread...

-MarkM-

WTF ?

It sounds like all the stuff you took away from me is dying?

Why the F take it away if you just want to let it die?

I can redirect all the domains that I control (which I think is most of them) and point them at my own server if the people who insisted I point them at theirs are not doing their jobs...

Unthinkingbit and I built this coin originally, but somewhere along the line some other folks started insisting they wanted to do the websites have the DNS lookups pointed to their own servers, heck even may have bought a few of the domains, although I think I hold most of them.

Unthnkingbit and I have been chugging along all along, I don't think he has missed a cycle yet, he sends me an email saying build the data files, having provided the data in a github repo, I build and upload, then he tells other people to grab copies to make the redundant copies all over the place.

I originally set up the wiki but someone who it seems in retrospect must be just some asshole insisted he could do better and here we are today with people complaining tghe wiki (devtome) is dying.

Give me a download link with which to download the wiki database, I will redirect all the domains I control and set it up again myself...

And fat chance I let some other asshole take control away again most likely, now we have seen where that led...

Do we even have a forum anymore?

On devtome.com wiki I tried one of the main links on the left and it sent me to buybiycoins site! WTF?

I tried to find a forum to see what is happening and dont seem to know anymore what domain if any has our forum, if we even have one anymore?

-MarkM-

I am still looking at whether HORIZON would work for any of the assets shown at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

I have described before in this thread some aspects of my use-cases, here is some more...

Take a look at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/companies.html

It shows what various SHARES (as distinct from CURRENCIES) are valued at, based on what the assets of each company add up to given the supposed values of the assets that company holds.

I have chosen to display the value in dDVC (digiDeVCoins, that is, Open Transactions assets that represent actual DeVCoins) because typically devcoins are the lowest-valued coin we commonly use, thus provide the greatest "granularity" for expressing values.

Those values can be expressed in terms of other currencies and shares ("assets") by use of the conversion rates given in http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc

Obviously there are far from enough actual DeVCoins in existence to buy everything; the values in terms of DeVCoins are using DeVCoins as a "unit of account", not based on how many DeVCoins you could actually lay hands on at any given time. One of the uses of the Current Rates file is to figure out how much a given value of one thing would come out to if expressed in terms of another thing, so that for example if there are not enough DeVCoins on hand you could instead use some other coin, or some share, or some combination.

The conundrum is how best to integrate HORIZON into the family of assets shown at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

Or actually I guess it is the other way around: how to integrate those assets into HORIZON...

Given that we use DeVCoins as a "unit of account" so much, maybe one of the first things we should do is to set up that open source HORIZON-based exchange thing I recall having looked into long ago, if it is working reliably yet? As I recall it was a system for setting up websites that provided gateways into and out of HORIZON whereby blockchain-based coins could be turned into HORIZON-ASSETS and vice-versa, to kind of make hzDVC tokens for example comparable to the dDVC tokens we use in Open Transactions to represent and deal with DeVCoins?

-MarkM-

Probably the solution is to have people buy the asset USING HZ instead of selling to them for bitcoins.

I have been looking into a lot of similar situations myself, in looking for platforms other than Open Transactions that I could use for at least some of the assets you see listed at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

Provided the platform does actually turn out to provide buyers for your asset(s), the fact that the built-in trading system seems to insist that HZ itself must be one of the assets in each traded pair should force HZ up in value because the price per unit of your asset will be such that buying all the units would take more HZ than actually exist. So over time there should be less and less HZ that have not already been used to buy your asset.

My use cases however are typically simpler than yours, because historically I have preferred not to use a dividends system, for one thing I do not like the sawtoothed waves it tends to create in prices as people price in the time remaining to the next dividend payout and the expected amount of that payout. I have preferred to have people have to actually sell some of the asset in order to cash out, so I like to have assets accumulate their earnings, increasing the value of each unit of the asset.

In Open Transactions you get to choose which asset you want to pay out as dividends, it sounds like maybe part of your problem might be that in HORIZON you can only pay out HZ as dividends, instead of getting to choose any existing asset to be your payout-currency at any given payout-time?

If you do get to choose, then just ensure an asset exists, such as NHZBITCOINS or whatever, that is worth enough that it can handle the value you want to pay out.

For me I would probably first put some non-dividend-bearing currencies such as CDN, MBC, NKL or whatever onto the platform, some that are valuable enough to handle any dividends I want to pay out, before bothering to put any dividend-paying assets onto the platform. (Then pay out dividends in those currencies. At least until HZ itself becomes valuable enough to use for paying dividends.)

I do want to find a good solution, because currently Open Transactions has had some development slowdowns that are getting to be a real drag, and I need to make the stuff shown at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html much more accessible...

-MarkM-

SPICE was already lower than one coin per block, it has actually been 0.001 coins per block for a long time I think. So once who-ever megamined it back in the day has dumped, it should be ripe to become a good valuable coin if the blockchain can be secured. Trying to secure a blockchain with proof of work is insanely expensive though unless you use merged mining AND actually have decent amount of miners using the merged mining pools. So maybe proofr of stake is better?

Look at Unobtanium, there are less coins of GPL and maybe even of Diamond than there are of Unobtanium.

QBT used to look pretty good, but with its new hacked up insanly high PoS rate it is set to triple or quadruple its number of coins every year and already has over 50 million coins, so thats maybe 200 million in a year, eight hundred million in two years, two point four billion in tghree years etc, that is crazy, what used to be potentially a good coin is probably screwed now. Lets not do that crap to more coins.

Remember there have been coins around for many years based in sci-fi milieus, remember some of the originals, United Kingdom Britcoin (UKB), Canadian Digital Notes (CDN), General Mining Corp scrip (GMC), General Retirement Fund scrip (GRF), bitNicKeLs (NKL), United Nations Scrip (UNS), Martian BotCoins (MBC) and so on? You can see them listed still at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html

Originally they were cloned from bitcoin much like IXCoin (IXC) and I0Coin (I0C) were, just before we built GRouPcoin (GRP) and DeVCoin (DVC), but it was realised that even merged mining might not suffice to secure their blockchains so GRouPcoin was left as it was to serve as a test and proof of concept to determine whether merged mining would suffice to secure a coin and the "big seven" galactic currencies were switched over to Open Transactions.

All of those coins are still listed, but unfortunately development of Open Transactions has kept stalling so we still do not have the "Open Transactions that even grandma can use" yet which has left most of these currencies being used only within the Milieu gaming environment. This much newer wave of sci-fi coins (SPICE, GPL, UFC and so on) is of much interest to the Milieu though so we expect to integrate them once Open Transactions does get around to finalising its data formats and putting out its GUI client "that even grandmothers can use".


-MarkM-

Not an insane POS like you did to QBT! Spamming out vast numbers of new coins constantly cannot be good for prices, surely?

How about fix QBT to something reasonable instead of screwing yet another coin into the ground?

Maybe make it like GPL, a tiny enough stake rate that inflation won't totally destroy all value almost instantly?

Right now SPICE mining gives tiny enough rewards that inflation is small, spamming trillions of coins is a horrible idea especially for something intended to be rare/precious.

-MarkM-

Is this coin on any exchanges yet?

-MarkM-

This thread is kind of old, is there a new thread or something?

Is this coin on any exchanges at the moment?

-MarkM-

Well looks like my nodes have caught up, now at block 494253 does that seem right?

-MarkM-

No I have avoided buying QBT because of this split. It is AXIOM that I did not discover a problem until I did the withdraw.

Back then there was nothing on their thread now I see they have realised they have problems.

-MarkM-

I withdrew over 140,000 from the exchange earlier this year and never ever saw on the blockchain the transaction they claimed they sent.

I wrote to them repeatedly for months with no results.

It was Yobit exchange and they claimed to have sent this:

FAILED WITHDRAW:
2016-04-22 01:05:48
143226.28403252 AXIOM
041aba1ba22d8fd93ff688f9be32d22eb803f460aa39f7cd31ce400f3d5dbb21

I have never yet seen any such transaction.

I run

    "version" : "v1.0.0.0-g",
    "protocolversion" : 60015,
    "walletversion" : 60000,

on several nodes and have since long ago when the coin was created.

My nodes with ports open  to accept connections are dvcstable01.dvcnode.org, crossciv.no-ip.org and ufbsh.no-ip.org though I have many others behind those IPs.

-MarkM-

The server stuck at block 274305 finished its repair, shows its coins now. Maybe it is slowing itself down by trying to mint with the coins it already has or something.

It has seven connections and keep failing to connect to more, and keeps failing to find previous transaction and finding bad proof of stake.

Maybe there was just a whole bunch of orphans at that point in the past and its taking longer then my other machines to process them.

I stopped it and re-started it and now it seems to be getting blocks again.

Do you also happen to run AXIOM? As it looks like maybe something similar happened to that blockchain, I still have not received, still, a transaction (withdrawal) the exchange claims to have sent out in January. Writing to the exchange seems to do no good, they do not seem to read their tickets. I want to find out if ANYONE has ANY record of the transaction they claim they sent, as it does not seem to be on the blockchain at all.

-MarkM-

Up to block 493830 now, which should be new chain now since it cannot download old past that certain block you mentioned?

One thing that is wierd is along the way sometimes seeing some stake, though so far there is no sign of orignal monies some of which date back to original spawned coins issued to people who had been on the even older versions of cubits.

I think my coins are actually in the node that only got up to block 274305 so far and seems to have been there a while now working through some stuff where it is seeing mismatched transactions or something like that.

(Check proof of stake failed.)

It shows newmint of 18.75 but no stake nor balance.

And 7 connections.

Both nodes that have existing wallets in them have a lot of mismatched coins shown by checkwallet so I am trying repairwallet on them.

One node completed repair ok so far, is up to block 493844 and seems to have its coins okay. Four connections.

Third party server in the U.S. never had coins of course since I don't physically control the server so obviously stupid to have any coins there, so no repair needed there, it is up to block 493844 also (six connections) so looks like it is probably all caught up, now I am just waiting for my other home server, with a wallet, that is still somehow stuck at ancient block but nonetheless running wallet repair to try to figure out why it shows newmint with no stake nor balance.


-MarkM-

But you also wrote this:


So presumably even though the only node that currently is willing to connect is that bad node you listed as in the U.S., nonetheless I will end up only downloading from it up to that block, then will be stuck until I do manage to connect to one of the nodes that has the new blackchain...

Oh wait also I just noticed that U.S. bad node was my third party server, which I have also re-started. So actually my home nodes are downloading from it as it downloads from someone else.

If there were only three bad nodes they were probably my third party server in the U.S. and my home servers in town and country houses. Country house if off the net for some reason and both nodes in townhouse are starting from scratch some hopefully they will get good blockchain now.


...By the way, isn't multiplying the number of coins by four every year going to get out of hand pretty quick? Or does the staking percentage shrink over the years?

-MarkM-

That addnode does not work, I tried what you say there and it simply results in zero connections.

-MarkM-

The values of assets are provided in an include-file, for example http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/latestrates.inc

The asset whose value is shown as 1.00000000 is, obviously (or hopefully obviously) the asset in terms of which the values are being given in the particular case.

What used to happen, using the Open Transactions platform, was each of the "big seven" had scripts that would have three scales for each trading pair, with slightly different markups / markdowns from the include-file-given values for each scale.

For example the Brits might offer to buy Canadian Digital Notes using United Kingdom Britcoin at the 1000 coin scale, the 10000 coin scale and the 100000 coin scale, and also to sell United Kingdom Britcoin for Canadian Digital Notes at those same three scales.

(Scales seem to be unique to Open Transactions; the idea is that often commodities will be cheaper in bulk than at small scales.)

The offers might be, say, 3%, 2% and 1% above the include-file values for sell and 3%, 2% and 1% below the given values for buy, so people trading with them would get better prices at larger scales.

(The idea there was that for smaller trades, market-makers could buy bulk directly from the governments or corps and sell in bulk directly to the governments or corps, with a margin allowing them to handle smaller scale markets such as buys and sells on a one coin scale or ten coin scale or hundred coin scale making a profit doing so. Similar to how banks buy currencies for sale over the counter to customers, or how money-exchangers near airports might do so.)

So as you hopefully see there is no strategic comparison here to other "current rates" that applied on other days. The scripts just take the base values as given (by head office or wherever, basically just include a file from a URL or somewhere on disk) and place offers computed from those values.

That could mean gains or losses, the scripts do not care, their purpose is simply to make sure that it is always possible to buy or to sell three "lots" at each of three "scales" basically all the time.

So for example you could always buy three batches of 100,000 UKB using CDN, and could always sell up to three batches of 10,000 UKB for CDN, or, since the Canucks would also have such a script, you could always buy up to three batches of 100,000 CDN using UKB, or sell up to three batches of 100,000 CDN for UKB and so on.

Using the scales also gave a way to get more granularity in pricing, since all assets were integers there were only so many integer prices you could have for one coin at a time, but trading at a scale of ten thousand coins you got five times as much price-granularity as the price would be per 10,000 coins not per coin.

The thing is, the details of how Open Transactions executed trades made it un-necessary to cancel yesterday's orders/prices because the default lifetime of all orders was one day so they died automagically, and for those times when you run the script again before a full 24 hours have gone by you did not need to worry about buying from yourself or selling to yourself because if a buy order was about to eat into a sell order the sell order was automatically cancelled and vice versa. So basically your new offers would stand and if old ones would have gotten in their way or eaten into them the old ones conveniently vanished.

This was awesome as it made the scripting very simple, just put in your markup and markdown from given current purported values and post your offers. No remembering required at all.

Basically the scripts were not bots, they were just blindly posting offers based on purported prices given from on high.

-MarkM-

Well the commandline is the common denominator that everything can access if given permission.

For example the MUD client tinyfugue can make commandline calls, so a character in a MUD who wants to buy or sell something in the MUD could trigger on receipt of something in the MUD a call-out to a commandline program that will send assets or check whether assets were received or whatever.

Basically if you have shell scripts you can then use them from inside all kinds of things, IRC bots, MUD clients, other shell scripts, CGI behind web-pages, whatever.

Also run them every day automatically using the cron daemon, which is probably how most day to market-making would be done.

But if one had to try to "remember" one's previous offers the whole thing gets horribly more complicated.

With offers that expire in a day you can just post new offers without worrying about what prices were yesterday, since yesterday's offers would be expiring automagically.

For a lot of people just including today's values from an include-file and posting various offers based on markups and markdowns on those values probably seems complex enough to daunt most of them.

But its not something people can be expected to do manually, having to log into something every day and post offers would get tiresome really fast, it needs to be done from the cron daemon.

-MarkM-

Has anyone else noticed that minting is broken?

Turn it on, come back a few days later to find it is turned off?

Also, is there some kind of command-line tool one can use to place offers?

In order to do market-making each of the "big seven" currencies for Open Transactions a bunch of bash-scripts that would include the currenct rates include-file for current values of assets and put together offers at three different scales to buy and sell against each of the oter big seven currencies and some of the other currencies.

For example the Brits would put buys and sells on the 1000-scale, 10000-scale and 100000 scale markets to sell at a 3%, 2% and 1% markup respectively and to buy at 1%, 2% and 3% discount respectively.

Also, what happens if your buy price today exceeds your sell price from yesterday? Will your sell offer cancel itself automatically when you go to buy at a price that would otherwise have bought some of your own sell offer?

In Open Transactions the default lifetme of an offer was only 24 hours so as long as you waited longer than that before running your market-maker scripts there was no risk of such overlap, but as soon as it was realised such overlaps could happen if you ran the scripts more often the server code was fixed to prevent buying your own sells or selling to your own buy ofers by simply cancelling any offer of your own that a new offer of your own would have eaten into. But is that the case in HoriZon?

If the default lifespan of an offer is longer than 24 hours, is there an option to specify the lifespan you want? Because trying to regularly place market-making offers at current valuation would be massively harder if you had to somehow figure out, or even somehow actually remember, your existing offers and cancel them to place new offers.

(The automatic cancelling by the server of offers that cross each other though helps a lot with that, since some folk don't so much mind their old-prices offers standing so long as it doesn't mean they end up buying from or selling to themselves, which in any case no one wants to have happen since it makes false volume without even requiring the person creating the false volume use two separate accounts to do it.)

Still I think for the most part folks will want to know their previous offers have died when they place their new offers or will die when the new offers are placed.

-MarkM-

I don't know how long it is going to take / when it will go live on HoriZon network.

Also we might have to use a larger number of shares than one million for HZC, so far we always used one million for Corps but that assumed a platform where any asset can be directly traded against any asset, on HoriZon everything will have to be done via the HZ native currency so smaller shares might be needed so that people don't have to accumulate such large chunks of the native currency in order to facilitate the trades they actually are trying to do. Also just the way the value of HZC works out, having one of each of several currencies in effect per share, makes the shares larger values than the currencies involved. Since it will be probably ten or more currencies maybe it makes sense to split it up into ten or more times as many shares as has hitherto been customary for Corps.

Also it would be nice to try to have the amounts of the other coins also be a whole million of each, which for IXCoin and I0Coin might not be easy to come by. Well for IXCoin anyway since 400,000+ of the Milieu's IXCoins were on Cryptsy when Cryptsy collapsed.

-MarkM-