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I see no advantage in using Ripple over Mastercoin.
Why would we want to use Ripple when Mastercoin can do the same thing but better?
What are these Ripple gateways? who runs them? Why would we want to trust them? Why choose Ripple? Can we buy Ripples yet?
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Colored VS Master.. sounds a bit racist eh?
It does indeed. But the Master wins every time in that scenario too. There are going to be all sorts of jokes and memes about this if JR becomes the richest man in the world for inventing Mastercoin. It's definitely a possibility. Whether or not he goes to jail? I don't think he will, but Kim Dot Com didn't seem to be breaking the law and they went after him. I think as long as JR has good lawyers and can live where he has to live he will avoid going to jail. The US might not be the most friendly place to live if the laws become bad for Bitcoin. JR will have enough money to move if the time comes and insulate himself from all that. Also if Mastercoin is a success it is unstoppable. Nothing can stop the protocol if it actually works, and even if they started jailing people it wouldn't stop anything but just delay it. Eventually whatever the laws were which put people in jail on political charges could be changed. In fact that is what will have to happen, the laws will have to be adapted to be favorable for innovation. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/dotcom-lawsuit/ |
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Cool story.
Didn't you sell yours for 0.02? If you would have just waited a few days you could have sold for 0.05. |
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Please remove my buy order. Another excellent transaction!
I propose Maxmint receive compensation for providing escrow service in the next Mastercoin bounty.
yep, i will tip Max in the next deal. who can sell msc to me at a reasonable price? just PM me 0.07 each. 250 left. Please stop dumping your coins!!   Yeah! What are you doing? This is a crazy low price. You are giving them away like a fool. Would you like to talk to me about this next year when we are at 1.07 each? Seriously, have some patience. MSC is going to rule the world in about two years. Just sit back and relax. may be you are right in next year, but 0.07B/MSC is too higher right now. there are still some risks in the project in MSC. additionally, you cannot sure what will happen in the future. otherwise, you must invest all of your assets in MSC. try to be a smart businessman, ok? How are you estimating what is too high price at the moment? The price will be more like 20-30 Bitcoins each 2 years from now. It will be 2 BTC each this year, probably by the time we see a working decentralized exchange. Think about it, if the idea works then it's at least worth 2 BTC a share. Asicminer went for 5 BTC a share and it was just an Asicmining company. This is an idea even bigger than Asics in impact. I wont sell for anything less than 2 BTC a share before it goes on the exchange because I expect it to be 2 BTC a share if it works at all. The only reason people are dumping at 0.08 and 0.1 is because no one knows what Mastercoin is yet so the demand isn't there but also because it's being traded on the forum so there is no way to do true price discovery. I think the true price right now is somewhere between 2 BTC and .1 BTC. WTS 50msc @ 0.04
I hope this person has a lot more Mastercoins otherwise they are going to regret it. Paying 10,000 Bitcoins for a pizza? To put it simple, if Mastercoin works and we have a decentralized exchange then it's worth between 1-2 BTC each. If all the planned features work then it's worth 20-30 BTC each. If it doesn't work as planned then its worth a lot less. So where are we right now? We can transfer mastercoins. We can send and receive mastercoins. We still don't have a decentralized exchange or smart property. Once we have a decentralized exchange and smart property then my prices will be considered cheap Mastercoins for the masses. Basically I'm a long term investor and wont be selling until it's close to a working product which will depend on how long it takes the developers to produce a decentralized exchange but also it depends on what happens with that other guy selling at 1 BTC per Mastercoin. My guess is he will sell some at that price and then as demand grows he will raise his prices a bit and I'll lower mine a bit and the true price is going to be somewhere in between.
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Another excellent transaction!
I propose Maxmint receive compensation for providing escrow service in the next Mastercoin bounty.
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I would like to buy 150 MSC for 0.03 each.
I will buy 50msc in 0.04
Added both of you to the order book. I just got 1 BTC to spend. Add me to the order book as well. 25 BTC @ 0.04. I prefer to buy from Lishbtc but will buy from anyone with escrow. |
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I hope I can get another BTC today
I'll buy 1 BTC worth of Mastercoin from Lishbtc. That should be around 25 Mastercoins right?
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Please please design Mastercoin in a way to make attaching it to an altcoin profitable for the current Mastercoin owners. That would be a brilliant move.
I Second this. Is that even possible? No. But please prove me wrong. It's not impossible. You just have to conceptually think of the current mastercoin owners as shareholders of all future implementations on altcoins. So if there is a mastercoin2, and it's backwards compatible with mastercoin1, then it benefits the owners of mastercoin1. There are probably ways to do it, but I don't know enough about the protocol to tell you exactly how it can be done. I'm just guessing if its just a protocol layer then the same way our Bitcoins became Mastercoins the Mastercoin1 could become Mastercoin2. |
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I was thinking, if you buy your BTC at Coinbase and then transfer them wherever, anyone with access to Coinbase's records will be able to track your BTC and tie them to you. Is that right?
Right. Bitcoins are not anonymous. |
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This logic is way too simple. As I said - and am "this guy" flamed for it - I don't understand the concept. But to reach this the mastercoins need to develop any real advantage over Bitcoins. As I see it by now it only has disadvantages (its not accepted, you can't sell it on exchanges ....)
Mastercoin has every advantage over Bitcoin theoretically. A Mastercoin can represent damn near anything and any altcoin. It can represent bars of gold, it can represent sheep, it can represent websites being sold, it can represent particular items being sold. What this means is I could use Mastercoins to sell particular items over a distributed exchange built into the blockchain itself. That means anyone with the wallet and some Mastercoins can use the Mastercoins are blank tokens which can represent anything and then sell those tokens. Think of Mastercoin as like giftcards which you can generate for yourself to sell your specific product. The customers can buy your giftcard from you in person and then redeem in from the blockchain at any time. Nothing like that has ever existed in the history of mankind. It would change how we all do business. It would allow for barter if we choose, or it could be used as a currency if we choose, or anything we define it as. It can be stocks, it can be bonds, it can be a house, and when you have that much flexibility the demand will definitely be greater than for Bitcoins. If I can sell my car easier with Mastercoins than with Bitcoins then I'll be using Mastercoins. Bitcoins do not have owners but Mastercoins do and you can literally own your own currencies and pay people in that if they are willing to work for your currency. There are different visions about what CC or MC should be used for. For me the main application is company stocks. These require trust in the company anyway, which will be established via traditional means, but it will spare the need to rely on cumbersome, centralized exchanges.
For me I see Mastercoin as an abstraction layer. Like the shift from going from procedural programming to object oriented. It makes it a lot easier to build future protocols on top of it. Mastercoin is actually the start of increasingly complex protocol layers being built on top of Bitcoin. Something will eventually be built on top of Mastercoin and chances are the people who own Mastercoins will be richly rewarded because there are only 600,000. Expect JR to be one of the richest men in the world a few years from now or in jail. Real-World-Problem. How would you close the right to possess a company stock in cc / mc? You need someone owning it and giving you a contract that this coin represents this share ...
If you have smart contracts and smart property, it's really not hard to pass ownership of stocks. That is a problem I could solve with bottle caps. The more interesting thing are the new kinds of exotic contracts which no one can even predict. edit: bitcoin' genius is to make the real-world-problem meaningless through mathematics, cause a bitcoin is not bound to anything in the real world, its just a bitcoin, its value doesn't depend on any contract or any item. cc and mc want to bind a coin to real-world-item, which sounds like a step backward
Bitcoin isn't backed by anything or bound to anything. Mastercoin can bind Bitcoins to anything which changes the game entirely. Now you could use Mastercoins to issue your own corporate coin. People can work for your coin and be paid in your products / gift cards. Later on people can exchange these gift cards to get anything they want using a LETS system. LETS networks use interest-free local credit so direct swaps do not need to be made. For instance, a member may earn credit by doing childcare for one person and spend it later on carpentry with another person in the same network. In LETS, unlike other local currencies, no scrip is issued, but rather transactions are recorded in a central location open to all members. As credit is issued by the network members, for the benefit of the members themselves, LETS are considered mutual credit systems.
A number of people have problems adjusting to the different ways of operating using a LETSystem. A conventional national currency is generally hard to earn, but easy to spend. To date LETSystems are comparatively easy to earn, but harder to spend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Exchange_SystemSo if my understanding is right, we will see a LETS system built on top of Mastercoin and then the real fun starts. |
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Yeah but some of it is bullcrap. Slaves never had to be rewarded, so if we convince people to work for free what could be better? At the end of the day people would rather work for rewards than for free when those are the choices (either work for free and not pay your rent, or work for money and pay your rent) and for many in the Bitcoin community that is exactly what the options are. Rewards alone aren't enough to make you work smarter. You have to get enough sleep, you have to actually enjoy what you're doing and care about what you're doing. Bitcoin offers all of that though. Finally for creative type work or highly intellectual project type work eventually it's not about money anymore. So they are right that you have to pay people enough so they don't have to work for money anymore. Colored Coin is trying to do something that Mastercoin is trying to do, but with Mastercoin you can get paid and work exclusively on Mastercoin while with Colored Coin you wont be able to quit your day job. What about people who don't have day jobs but who want to work and not have to worry about their bills? 50 Mastercoins are enough Mastercoins so that you'll never have to work again in a few years from now. But the rent is due this month... None of them. Both try to fill a gap in the concept of a currency ... Bitcoin is not bound to any real asset like gold etc., mc and cc try to change this. But I doubt either this is necessary and both possible.
To be honest, I didn't understood none of them. I struggled some time to understand Bitcoin and think I reached some basic understanding. So, outside a little circle of advanced users neither of them will find people which gain enough trust through understanding to risk anything. Also I don't get it how you would reach a real connection between coins and assets which is trustworthy enough ...
Personally I like cc a little bit more, cause mc presented itself as "a chance similar to the first bitcoin-mining", which in my view appells too much to greed and naivity to be successfull.
There are different visions about what CC or MC should be used for. For me the main application is company stocks. These require trust in the company anyway, which will be established via traditional means, but it will spare the need to rely on cumbersome, centralized exchanges. Also, it is not clear to me that using Mastercoin will require having significant amounts of mastercoins.
Hey! we finally agree on something. I posted about this a few weeks ago. If I only have 10 mastercoins, presumably I can divide them each into 1 million pieces (or more) and enjoy use of the entire Mastercoin protocol and all the great functionality it brings on 10 different share issues for example. Since nobody will ever practically need more than 10 share issues, there is little or no point in owning more than just a few MSC. Indeed, owning only 1 is probably sufficient as they are practically infinitely divisible. J.R. hasn't commented on this point as far as I can tell. So now you understand one of the problems of MSC as an investment. If mastercoins aren't needed in large quantities to use Mastercoin, then the supply of mastercoins will far exceed their demand, meaning the value of mastercoins will be low - even if Mastercoin is successful. An issue which, by the way, I raised 2 months ago. I agree that JR should comment on that issue. There are 21 million million Bitcoins that will ever exist. There are 600 thousand Mastercoins that will ever exist. I predict each Mastercoin will easily be worth between 20-30 Bitcoins. But if we want to be conservative each Mastercoin is actually going to be worth at least 1 Bitcoin. Assume that everyone who has at least 1 Bitcoin will want at least 1 Mastercoin and you can easily see that the price of Mastercoins will easily surpass 1:1. As for the particulars of how much this or that costs in Mastercoin, who knows? But you can be sure when people figure out what they can do, everyone will want some. I think the balance JR has to reach is to have enough Mastercoins that they wont ever run out, but have it be scarce enough that the value can continue to appreciate over time. 600,000 is a good number, but the main threat I see to Mastercoin value will be from Bitshares. People will probably sell Mastercoins for Bitshares if that idea actually worked as well as they say it will, but it's very possible that Mastercoin could have first mover advantage and work better too. JR will have to explain the math of Mastercoin, I don't fully understand and my calculations could be way off, but based on my calculations I'm not selling Mastercoins for less than 2 BTC each. The reason is I predict the demand for Mastercoins will be far greater than the demand for Bitcoins. People will be buying Bitcoins in order to buy Mastercoins so they can do certain things which can only be done using Mastercoins. Whether my math is off or not depends on whether or not Mastercoins are destroyed after use. If they are destroyed bit by bit over time as I understand it then they'll be absolutely deflationary. The rate of that destruction would determine how deflationary and JR has to answer that. In his whitepaper he suggests 1.5 Mastercoins for 1000 Bitcoins. My calculations suggest that everyone will want to own a few Mastercoins and the price would for sure be at least a few Bitcoins probably prior to the launch and could get as high as 30 Bitcoins per Mastercoin depending on how it works. |
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Break it down for me - crypto for dummies Because the stock exchanges went down. Litecoin was only able to survive because people could use them to buy virtual stocks and bonds and because of stuff like Atlantis. Litecoin will be back and better than ever once there is a place to spend them. But for right now expect the price to go back under $1 where it was before April. |
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(I don't fully understand them so I'm posting this)
Are they even similar? What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?
Too soon to know. Mastercoin has momentum and funding. Coloredcoin does not. I'd say Mastercoin has the advantage but Coloredcoin will be important for altcoins. |
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I'd like to inform you guys of a new alt coin that borrows some basic ideas from Mastercoin. I'm talking about Nxt. I just found it today and skimmed through the thread, so my understanding might be a little off. They are doing some Mastercoin-style fundraiser, and creating a brand new Proof of Stake coin, where the initial stake is based on the donated funds. This does not use the Bitcoin blockchain at all, but is a separate blockchain that can be mined without any electricity burned (is it the first pure PoS alt?) There are missing details, and I think the fundraiser was constructed rather clumsily (The end date wasn't set in stone when the fundraiser started, no bonus for early adopters). The op doesn't intend to actually raise a lot of money ... but the market might decide that they do want to invest in this new alt. I believe the fundraiser ends Jan 3 2014, and you can see their version of 1Exodus at 1BCN1u. Here is my first reply to their thread. FYI, they don't see their creation as a feature-rich protocol such as Mastercoin, but rather just as one more alt that attempts to fix some of bitcoins flaws. It's hard to evaluate this project without whitepaper, source code, or even knowing who is behind it. Still, I won't be surprised if they raise a LOT of money. People have seen this fundraising method work for MSC (and pay off handsomely for our investors), and people will be a lot more willing to give it a try now that it has been proven to work. This may not be a scam, but if we don't see some scam fundraisers using this model, I'll be amazed! Proof of stake is very interesting to me. If we see a POS system take off, we might set up a parallel MSC on top of it someday, just to cover all our bases. Note that if we do something like that on ANY alt chain I'd want to look for a way to seed it by giving current MasterCoin holders the new coins, rather than starting with a new fundraiser. Please please design Mastercoin in a way to make attaching it to an altcoin profitable for the current Mastercoin owners. That would be a brilliant move. |
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Looks like I wont have a chance to buy anymore, the price isn't going to stay under .1 for much longer. Mastercoins are selling out.
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Hey maxmint, luckybit has asked to buy 33MSC for 1BTC with escrow - would you mind?
Cheers
Of course, PM sent to both of you. Another successful transaction. Thanks Maxmint and Lishbtc. |
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I'd like to buy 33 MSC @ 0.03.
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I think the rich guy would prefer to invest in a company that produce ASIC instead of buying Bitcoin, they would earn even more using this strategy.
Buying Bitcoin is the safest investment in a lot of ways but no, a rich person wouldn't touch Bitcoin yet. The ultra rich want to buy control and power over others. Bitcoin companies aren't run in a way which would give them much control over the community yet. In the future that could change if the community depends too much on Bitcoins and does not diversify into altcoins. |
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Please forgive me for my ignorance. But what makes it better with background check on every issuer?
People can still scam. Just like mtgox can any day possible say they got hacked and funds are gone.
It's harder to scam when you're under scrutiny by professionals trained to detect scams. Treat this like a Casino and look for people trying to cheat. What does it matter if you know the identity of the person?
You know, legal accountability? Consequences? They can be blacklisted by the community and then prosecuted by the legal minds of the community. If the SEC has to be called in at that point then they can be called in. The problem isn't that the community doesn't have contacts in authority, it's that the community refuses to use the contacts they do have to solve problems everyone agrees on. We don't all agree that Silk Road is bad, but we all agree that scams and fraud is bad. Can't we adopt a no scam and no fraud policy based on a web of trust protocol? I have not been following labcoin at all so I will not comment if they are a scam or not.
But what if they were not a scam and just a big screw up. If so, what would have helped if you had known their identity?
In the end you always have to trust the issuer, no matter what.
If they are not a scam and just a big screw up then they still have to be documented and the people involved in that level of incompetence should still receive the reputation of being incompetent. Reputation is extremely important. It's too easy for people to start projects, ask for a million dollars, with absolutely no reputation at all and no web of trust? Issuers should at least be people known on Bitcointalk and have a reputation of some sort based on trades they've done, or people who are willing to sponsor or vouch for them. |
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It's not possible to have a completely decentralized exchange. At some point there will always be central hubs and these will be necessary. It's not that simple. Trust doesn't exist in anonymous exchanges. You don't have to trust them (like you don't have to trust a miner) There is no way to audit a corporation or issuer. If someone claims a currency is backed how are you going to check their vaults to see that they have platinum or gold in them?
Trusting the asset issuer has nothing to do with secure asset trading. Check the thread. It has everything to do with investing. Just solving functional problems doesn't mean the software you create will be practically useful. If you want software which will only be used by scammers then go ahead and make it anonymous and issuers will be able to scam with impunity. Just look at Labcoin, there are people still wondering whether or not it's a scam even after evidence came out. When you cannot audit a corporation you do not know what they are doing with your money. If you're talking about smart property and assets then you do need quite a bit more than just what Mastercoin offers. Are you going to background check every issuer? Are you going to solve some of the many risks involved with all this? What are some of your solutions so that we can have distributed regulation along with the exchange? |
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