Well, I'm shocked that this hasn't been bigger news on the speculation forum, and I was hoping the price would drop a little before I brought it up, but Startup Engineering, a major online and on campus course run by Stanford University yes , the same one where all the kids got rich making facebook apps is running a course on how to build a Startup from the ground up. And guess what the major project is? A Bitcoin based Crowd Funding site!!!Think about it over 140,000 highly motivated independent entrepreneurs are learning how to build apps for bitcoin! Granted 90% will probably drop out, or have no interest in bitcoin.... But what about the remaining 10%?? 10% of 100k is still 14,000 entrepreneurs. Even if only 90% of those are failures or move onto better things This still leaves 1,400 of the most capable people on earth who are now building new things for bitcoin. An amazing number. At the very least we'll get a new crowdfunding site out of it that will trump anything out there at present. At best we could see a whole new bubble of innovation get spawned from this. Not to mention the crowdfunding site in itself will spawn innovation. I'm cancelling my sell orders. It's only up up up from here! http://startup.stanford.edu/Bring this program to other colleges. Contact your professors. |
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It's going to rise for sure with the rise in difficulty. It's going to have it's difficulty rise because of ASICs and because it's more profitable to mine than Bitcoin. It's supply is controlled by its difficulty. It's price is determined by supply and demand. Demand is going to rise because PPC is more stable than Bitcoin and while Bitcoin is crashing down, people will put their Bitcoin into PPC. On top of that, when you find out your ASICs are now obsolete for Bitcoin that only leaves PPC to mine. PPC is going to become incredibly scarce incredibly fast this summer. If demand stays the same the price will double. If demand increases it could get over $1 or even up to $3. It has 19 million coins like Litecoin but with a lower rate of inflation than Litecoin. It's not vulnerable to 51% attacks and it's very stable in it's price without much volaility. My original prediction (check the date and look at the charts to confirm I know what I'm talking about): Price is determined by market cap and the total coins in circulation. If PPcoin has more total coins in circulation than the market cap then the price of each coin will remain under a dollar. The inflation rate of PPcoin is still high, this means if you're waiting for PPcoins to be worth a dollar anytime soon the difficulty will have to go up sharply within months along with the market cap. There are 19 million PPcoins but PPcoin has a shrinking market cap which just lost 11.02%! Just have a look at the charts. http://coinmarketcap.com/This is a signal to mine PPcoins but do not buy them because the price is going to drop into the single digits soon. Mine them while the difficulty is very low and the inflation rate is high, because eventually the difficulty will be high and you'll have no choice but to buy. The main focus of the PPcoin community should be to increase market cap as quickly as possible. Get businesses to accept PPcoin and build businesses around PPcoin or the prices will continue to drop on your investment if you bought PPcoins. And then I wrote: Just watch, in the next week the price is going to go down even more and it's all because the inflation rate increases while the market cap is shrinking that you have the signal that this about to happen. The supply is going to increase while the demand will decrease which lowers the price. This will continue to happen until the difficulty rises in such a way that the supply doesn't increase faster than demand. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101820.msg2323216#msg2323216The difficulty is going up sharply. The marketcap will lag behind but when it goes up as well the price will shoot up to $1 or more. I made the post to buy PPC because I believe Sunny King has been proven correct with his difficulty formula. He knew ASICs were on the way when he designed PPC and designed PPC to take advantage of this fact within the PPC algorithm itself which is adjusted according to Moore's law and not some arbitrary way. No one listened to me when I said PPC would go down into the single digits and no one listened to me when I said it would rise, now I'm saying it will go to $1 and buy. I don't know how long this will take and anything could happen, so don't buy more than you can afford to lose. But I've bought in. |
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4) Txs, Txs Txs. By the time all Bitcoins have been mined, the transaction fees will make it worthwhile for the miners (Satoshi's white paper)
I don't think you even need to look that far ahead. If Tx fees haven't reached BTC12.5 per block by the time the reward halves again, BTC is probably dead in the water. what are you talkingggg about?! that will actually be a really good thing. tx fees will be negligible PER transaction but if a block has 5000 transactions and packs a nice neglible fee per amount of bitcoins sold it PROVES that bitcoin works well. and keep in mind if bitcoins are worth a lot of money than even 5 bitcoins per block could be worth thousands Thousands might not mean as much when mining equipment costs tens of thousands. |
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ASIC miners killed bitcoin profitability. who knew.
Stop complaining and go mine PPC. |
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And I'm going to predict that miners will figure this out within a few days to a week and the price of PPC will surpass $0.50.
Look at the difficulty, with PPC the higher the difficulty the more scarce the coin. PPC unlike Bitcoin does not rely on halving but on Moore's law. This means ASICs actually will make PPC supply very scarce. On top of that Proof of Stake will make it even more scarce than it ordinarily could be.
Two suggestions: Buy PPC. Mine PPC.
Throw your ASICs at PPC because it's more profitable to mine than BTC.
Buy PPC right before you do it of course.
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I think he said that to cause people to think. It wont actually happen I don't think. Netcoin also has some ideas which Bitcoin could never compete with even if they changed the core hashing algorithm to Scrypt. Netcoin has the lottery ticket system which is a game changer for doing PoS. It's nothing like PPC. In a way it takes the best of Bitcoin, the best of PPC, the best of Litecoin and combines them all into the Bitcoin killer. As soon as the whitepaper and wiki are finished I will invest a good day studying Netcoin and then see if it's as good as I think it is and if it is then I'll put my full support behind it as the next thing. Here is something to note, PPC is going to rise quite a bit in the next few weeks. It's a good time to buy PPC. SunnyKing turned out to be right, his algorithm aligns scarcity to Moore's law and because there is this ASIC arms race the more that happens the greater the value of PPC. And it seems to do this without the volatility of Bitcoin and Litecoin. But it does have it's flaws as well because the difficulty algorithm was an experiment which could have failed if the ASICs did not come this summer. I'm interested in Primecoin along with Netcoin. |
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There are a few problems with the PoW/PoS method as detailed. I'm trying to upload proposed updates to the wiki, but the wiki is still kind of buggy and won't let me.
Namely:
2) Truncating SHA3-256 to 16 bits is somewhat dangerous from a security perspective for ticket selection. This can be resolved by making the input data for the hash fairly random (ie, hash the concatentation of the last 256-bits of the block header hash + SHA3-256 hash of the stake transaction in the block + bits and pieces of the last n blocks' block header hashes + block header hashes of the stake subblocks). What you really don't want is someone gaming the ticket hashes by manipulating the transaction list, this needs to be thought about a little more to ensure it can not be manipulated.
3) A suitable algorithm needs to exist that takes the most recent transactions seen on the network and the times they saw the transactions as input and then analyzes a new PoW block and returns a boolean value specifying whether or not the transaction list included in the PoW block is actually plausible given what it saw. At high transaction volume, it will be more or less impossible for a PoS miner to calculate hashes for all possible additions of transactions to the ledger, so an algorithm as just described that is less intensive is needed.
4) To keep block timing consistent, we need to adjust difficulty based on the value of N for each new PoW block. This is pretty easy, as hashing performance scales almost linearly with N in the ranges I specified if I remember right.
1) You can't invalidate previous blocks without recursively invalidating the blockchain as described. The solution I am proposing is to make truncated PoS subblocks that verify the PoW blocks (this will make more sense when you read it entirely).If I understand correct the stakeholders are the signatories who vote Yea or Nay to validate whether or not the transaction ledgers match? If they vote 60/40 in Yea then it is true and 60/40 in Nay then it is false? So it creates a validation chain over time, and you're using truncated PoS sub blocks as the mechanism to accomplish this? Complexity is the enemy of security but I also understand that in this case there is no simpler algorithm that I can think of to do it. It seems like it would work on paper but you're going to have to explain in more detail on the wiki.
3) A suitable algorithm needs to exist that takes the most recent transactions seen on the network and the times they saw the transactions as input and then analyzes a new PoW block and returns a boolean value specifying whether or not the transaction list included in the PoW block is actually plausible given what it saw.
So what you're trying to do here is essentially verify the integrity of the transaction list? An algorithm captures the latest snapshot of the list, captures the time stamp as the meta-data part of the input, analyzes the meta-data along with the transaction list to determine whether or not the snapshot is plausible/implausible? This would be narrowed down to a true or false? Will probability be factored in or is it just true or false? This will be used to supplement the PoS solution? Are you saying that the PoS solution you highlight in the paper will not scale? Consistency issues may also arise; for example, if two transactions are sent at nearly the same time, Node A might first see Tx A and Node B might first see Tx B. Node A claims a block and hashes the transaction list with Tx A sorted into the list. Then Node B sees Tx A and makes a list sorted with both A and B in it. Node B will thus never generate the same hash as the one used by Node A to solve the block. To remedy this, stakeholder nodes will have to generate hashes for all possible incorporations for the last n transactions.If the remedy you are describing based around some sort of combinatorics based consistency check? Are you saying all possible Tx orders would have to be included so that they both generate the same hash? I'm confused about this. Are you saying that the transaction list is like a finite Markov chain? |
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It's not practical or easy to own Bitcoins. Thats why so few own any.
I'm dumbstruck. It's 3 steps. 1) https://www.bitaddress.org (60 seconds) 2) Print & Store (60 seconds) 3) Publish Address and get to work. (A life time) Without massive amounts of investment there wont be enough market capitalization to create any jobs. When a Bitcoin is worth a few thousand each then there will be more jobs but when they are worth only $100 it's only a billion dollar economy so there are no jobs. Basically you gotta have investors before you can start businesses which is where the jobs come from. |
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Step away for a week and the price has EXPLODED! Pleasant pleasant surprise. Where do you think the ceiling is? Still time to buy in more?
I think the ceiling is around 12BTC per share. I think we will surpass 6 this week and be halfway to what I'd consider to be the reasonable ceiling. If it goes higher than 12BTC per share then we know it's just a bubble. Big players will sell at around 10BTC per share which is why I put 12 as a ceiling because it's psychological similar to when BTC passed $100 the first time. Everybody who got in at 2.5-3 are in a position to keep buying more shares. If you're just getting in now at 5BTC a share you may still profit, and anyone getting in at 6BTC is just speculating that it will get to 10. I predict it will go as high as it can go until a big player decides to sell and even if they do sell it only buys us some time, maybe a couple weeks. |
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The reasoning for N being based on very recent blocks versus the secure hash
algorithm being based on a table and eventually older blocks is to ensure the diversity of
randomization as well as to make sure that the most complex element of the secure hash
function, N, is difficult to predict.
This ^
I think just so long as it's difficult to predict it can work.
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Do we have any update from Taco or regarding the new white paper?
He's going to go into detail (greater detail than the paper) on the Wiki. In all likelihood we'll be able to do that concurrently with crowdfunding the project, and getting paid developers assembled. Unfortunately I don't have a recent update on his thinking, but I'm sure he'll chime in as soon as he gets a chance! Yeah, that's right. Sorry! We'll have to update all those links. Forum is now at netcoin.io/forum. It'll open soon when we move into the next phase. Not trying to be a tease, but we don't have much to talk about until we have a development update, so it makes sense to open up the new forum when that happens. Tacotime for President! Netcoins as the currency. Peace on earth. Can someone give me the cliffnotes on how they decided to fund development? Im all for supporting this in any way possible.  You should start a White House petition so they can talk to TacoTime's prime minister, who can then talk to his school and see if they would let him take off some time to work on this full-time.  Development is going to take the form of a crowdfunding run where the funds raised will go to development of various components of the proposal. The exact terms aren't finalised yet, but essentially the stake funders occupy in the network is required for its security. Ultimately the goal is to contribute to the public domain a body of work, where Netcoin is an implementation of that, which can't function without your stake in it (if that makes sense). Can developers be paid in such a way so that it's not a lump sum payment? Btw the new whitepaper is MUCH easier to follow. I now have a much better understanding on how Netcoin is intended to work. I can't find any faults with it yet but I'll continue looking at it. |
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I have been thinking extensively about Bitcoin's future and have proposed a few questions to discuss.
1) In 2140 when all of the Bitcoins have been mined, what motivation will miners have to continue mining?
2) After the Bitcoins run out, will the experiment be over? Will we just all move to a brand new Bitcoin 2.0?
3) Will testnet Bitcoins ever have any value?
4) Do you think modifying Bitcoin so that it indefinitely inflates over time would be a good idea?
I personally believe that Bitcoin should not stop inflating. Miners will have almost NO incentive when mining after the block reward is gone. Mining fees aren't high enough and people will have to pay a premium to get their transactions completed. Even if we doubled block halving to 8 years instead of 4, it would help.
Also, do you think a shorter confirmation time will help Bitcoin out as well? As adoption grows and the economy expands, confirmation time needs to change. An hour long confirmation time simply isn't acceptable for the majority of people.
Why would anyone want to increase the supply and ruin the main feature of Bitcoin? People want Bitcoins because they are worth $100. Increase the supply and no one will want them. |
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...Once this works, resulting demand for BTC will be absolutely unimaginable for anyone involved in BTC trading right now. 260 usd/btc bubble top? We haven't seen nothing yet, mark my words.
I agree. Once BTC gets more mainstream to these big money investors.. $260 will seem like 'back in the days when it was only $260' $2600 is more like what we will see once the institutional investors get in. |
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It is an interesting development. We have speculated that derivates will not be popular, because as opposed to other types of assets, it is practical and easy to just own the bitcoins. Now we will have the answer to that.
It's not practical or easy to own Bitcoins. Thats why so few own any. |
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any thoughts on how to catch up to bitcoin's 4 year head start and the amount of adoption they already have?
I always thought this was an interesting perspective when it comes to Bitcoin versus others. I don't look at it as competition. Netcoin is the beginning of what some guy thought would be an improvement on what Bitcoin developed into. So he decided to share those ideas just like Bitcoin shared its ideas. It's all about building on top of what's good. At the end of the day, I will call Netcoin good on a personal level if it's freedom-enabling for people, as opposed to systems that are about controlling people (like most scamcoins - just my opinion, no flaming intended). That's what I want to work toward and play a part in! This is an interesting model: http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/07/01/winklevoss-twins-file-to-launch-bitcoin-exchange-traded-product/I could see this idea working for Litecoin or Netcoin. Simply set up a product similar to this and then sell passthrough shares in the Netcoin on the official stock market to marketed to the mainstream investor. I would say keep an eye on this to see if it works because this could be what brings Bitcoin to the investor mainstream. The main problem people have with Bitcoin is they don't know how to get them, and when they get them they don't know how to keep them safe, this solves both those problems by treating Bitcoin as an ordinary share like any other on the stock market. Now a billionaire can buy shares in Bitcoin and add it to their portfolio. |
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But I think the shares are worth around 5BTC and while I wouldn't buy them at 10BTC (I cannot afford to at that price) I'm sure some people can. It's a good place to put your Bitcoins and it's better than leaving it in cold storage or hot wallet. You might have to deal with the fluctuations but if it gets to 5BTC it's not going back down to 4.5 so the problem of fluctuations mostly affects people who get in too late. If you're getting in at 5+ then I would think it's far more risky than getting in right now at 4.5.
Emphasis mine, and I agree with the points in bold. To extend it another step, getting in at 4.5 is riskier than if you'd done so at 4. If you bought in at a lower price (let's say <2 for the sake of the discussion), the question is not whether you lost or gained money, but how much profit you've made. I disagree with your statement that share price won't drop to 4.5 once it passes 5; all I can see are those "hold, spartans!" memes on /r/Bitcoin when BTC/USD was $200+. If x can go up, x can go down, which leads me to your statement that AM is a better parking spot than cold storage; that's only true if AM shares don't decrease in value. There is no reason to move the Bitcoins because there is nothing else paying dividends this much. So where else will people put their savings? You keep it in a cold storage and it doesn't collect 20-30% APR. And there is really nothing to spend it on except BFL and we see where that goes. For the next month dividends will be high and there is no better investment. In August we can look at the share price then but I suspect it could be over 6 or even over 7 by then and the pressure will exist to sell but will that be enough to out pace demand? If the price of Bitcoins keep dropping then I would say no. The cheaper Bitcoins are the more demand there will be for these particular shares. |
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When stories spread about people paying off their college loans or tripling their Bitcoins just from buying shares they'll get in.
I've tripled my investment in under 2 months.
For the record, I think anybody who buys shares at current prices (~4.5) is making a bad decision. Why would you consider it a bad decisions with the ridiculous dividends coming in the future? Because daily fluctuations in share prices are already orders of magnitude larger than any dividend payment to date. A BTC0.04 dividend equals a net loss if the shares you bought at BTC4.5 are now selling for BTC4.45. But I think the shares are worth around 5BTC and while I wouldn't buy them at 10BTC (I cannot afford to at that price) I'm sure some people can. It's a good place to put your Bitcoins and it's better than leaving it in cold storage or hot wallet. You might have to deal with the fluctuations but if it gets to 5BTC it's not going back down to 4.5 so the problem of fluctuations mostly affects people who get in too late. If you're getting in at 5+ then I would think it's far more risky than getting in right now at 4.5. |
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When stories spread about people paying off their college loans or tripling their Bitcoins just from buying shares they'll get in.
I've tripled my investment in under 2 months.
For the record, I think anybody who buys shares at current prices (~4.5) is making a bad decision. Why would you consider it a bad decisions with the ridiculous dividends coming in the future? |
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I think its cool. We can all buy them and resell them to bubble-boys  The bubble-boys will be coming. We just gotta call them up and tell them what an awesome opportunity they are missing. When stories spread about people paying off their college loans or tripling their Bitcoins just from buying shares they'll get in. By the way, 1000 shares @ 4.5? That guy is a millionaire. |
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