50 confirmations are the recommended wait time for exchanges due to the large monetary amounts that can be transferred.

But the Zeitcoin wallet receiving the coins only requires 4 confirmations(2 minutes) before allowing you to spend those coins.

It is like this, if you are buying something for less than $20 then 4 confirmations (2 minutes) are fine.

If you are accepting hundreds or thousands of $ worth of Zeitcoins, then waiting 50 confirmations (25 minutes) are recommended.

As everyone knows Lightning Network is supposed to make bitcoin transactions affordable.

But when you dig into it the question become more affordable than what.

Current comparison

Most Lightning network hubs charges a default base fee of $0.06 US
so to complete a LN offchain transaction will cost you a
minimum of $0.06 US if you only need 1 hub
minimum of $0.12 US if you only need 2 hubs
minimum of $0.18 US if you only need 3 hubs
minimum of $0.24 US if you only need 4 hubs
minimum of $0.30 US if you only need 5 hubs

Now let's compare than with ZEITCOIN's ONCHAIN Network
Cost is usually .1 zeitcoin which currently equals $0.0000025 US
So to complete a Zeitcoin Transaction
the cost is $0.0000025 US

As you can see it is not even in the same ballpark, Zeitcoin transactions are more affordable than LN by a factor of 24000 X .  

So the question becomes , ok well when zeitcoin reaches $0.50 per zeitcoin
then the cost is $0.05 US (still cheaper than LN)

Ok , next level When Zeitcoin reaches $1 per zeitcoin, and the majority of you that read this are multimillionaires.  
then the cost is $0.10 US (still cheaper than LN needing 2 hops)

In LN, you are looking at possibly up to 2 weeks maximum wait time for complete ownership of your newly acquired funds. (when you close your LN Channel)

In ZEITCOIN, you only need to wait 25 minutes for 50 confirmations to feel secure in your ownership of the money you received.

One of the reason ZEIT is the Future and Bitcoin/LN are the past.

The ZEITCOIN Network is Currently 24000X more affordable than LN.

Ok say the amount is .1 btc sent
basefee + (amount * feerate / 1000000)
.00001000 +(.1 *0.00001 / 1000000) =

Converted to US$
$0.06 + (amount so small , it is of no issue)=

Seems to be no point to this as the # is too small to matter, are you sure this is correct?
(amount * feerate / 1000000)
(.1 *0.00001 / 1000000)

Thanks.

Ok ,
Just to make sure I am understanding your #s.
Are you saying you are now charging 0.00001 bitcoin per transaction. (Which is the default.)
Which is at the moment the equivalent of 0.06 US$ per transaction.

Is this per each LN transaction?

Correct me if I misunderstood.

Thanks.

I have a suspicion that wenwen has done absolutely nothing to support zeitcoin.

And I wish he would sell all his zeitcoins as since he does nothing to help , his opinion is worthless.  


@wenwen, why the hell do you even own any zeitcoins , you think so poorly of it ,
then sell your coins and Good Bye. 

For New Users or Exchanges that need to get in Sync

Latest ZEITCOIN Snapshot 8-10-2018
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=487814.msg39618691#msg39618691


Latest ZEITCOIN Bootstrap.dat  8-10-2018
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=487814.msg31894202#msg31894202

If you want to stake in 30 days, ~1 billion coins per block.
Less will take longer , look at the minting tab for details.

So less assume there are no checkpoints to block it.

If the Main Chain is 3 months ahead of your fake chain, (because you purchased old keys)

Detail exactly how you are going to fake the time stamp on your fake chain blocks.

Detail exactly how you are going to fake the required time & hashes between blocks so it's difficulty # matches or exceeds the main chain, while also exceeding the block height.

Your Fake chain has to exceed the length of the main chain and has to have a higher difficulty level for it to be accepted over the main chain.

* Feel free to demonstrate on any PoS coin you own, and prove your theory. *
* We'll need copies of the main chain and your fake chain as proof. *


FYI:
If someone steals coins with a fake wallet download, the incentive is to sell the stolen coins for profit, not waste effort trying to destroy their ill gotten gain.
It be the same as robbing a bank and then setting the money on fire.  

FYI2:
N@S is not impossible, just an extreme waste of time and resources, which is why no one has ever even bothered to write a multistaking client.
The supposed benefits are mere hype and bullshit. It won't grant anything worth the time or effort of running one.
You drive up your needed resources for no real benefits.

Europe Users

Go here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0
Click New Topic , and create your sprouts classic topic and don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord Split you.  
(If neither of you has enough sense to create a topic, you might as well log off and mail your PC back to the manufacturer.)

Tired of hearing both of your false propaganda , go create your own forum topic for your classic nonsense.

This is the Sprouts HF topic, go create your own topic , feel free to post 1 link here to your nonsense classic topic then buzz off and see if anyone follows you.

Nope,  
Sybil attacks can not change the program code on my node therefore they can not change the rules of the network.
# of nodes is irrelevant.

You are confusing a hard fork with a sybil attack.  My previous post explained what a sybil attack could do:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4554671.msg43399300#msg43399300

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hard-fork.asp
A hard fork  as it relates to blockchain technology, is a radical change to the protocol that makes previously invalid blocks/transactions valid (or vice-versa).
This requires all nodes or users to upgrade to the latest version of the protocol software.

*Any attempts to change the protocol with less than full consensus of all of the miners does nothing more than create an ALT coin for the splinter group.*

You LN guys are just lemmings running for a cliff.  

Enjoy your Banking 2.0  

George Santayana

And repeat it , you shall.




Last post, Good Luck Lemmings.   

You rather use the cost of a new PC matching the specs of a $60 Monthly VPS instead, knock yourself out.
One time Input Cost : New PC with 8 gig of ram ~3 gigahertz running at least an I7 Processor
Monthly  Input Cost  : Internet Access with DDOS Protection included (Dedicated BANDWIDTH @ 1Gbps up/down minimum)
                                2 internet provider in case the 1st one goes down to block LN funds from being stolen      
Electricity Input Cost : Monthly Electricity bill for PC & internet modem
* and if you really want to get detailed include the amount of bitcoins locked in your Hub *

 

Sadly  , You are stupid too.

No , fraction reserve is taking  $1 but pretending to have $10.
All it takes is 1 software update and when you lock 1 bitcoin with LN , the LN hub owners claims it has 10 bitcoins locked and spends the other 9 fake LN/faux bitcoins, while you still only had 1 bitcoin time locked.
When the majority of people leave their funds locked for the majority of time, this fractional reserve system becomes possible, because not enough people cash out to crash the system. (It is called a Bank run.)
Research how banks were first created, and how the factional reserve system came into effect, it is just history repeating itself with crypto instead of gold.
That time lock of two weeks will be increased longer and longer til eventually onchain redemption of bitcoin will not be allowed or just plain outlawed.
IE: You used to be able to go to the bank and exchange your fiat for gold or silver, government outlawed this in the 1900s.
Which is the same time inflation started going crazy and the value of the dollar started to decline, because it's value is based on nothing but the promise of lying politicians.



Being that clueless comes natural to you.  

Banks will run LN hubs, and they will store all of the data necessary to comply with KYC/AML regulations.
So that when the Feds do come after LN Hub Owners, they can show all of the supporting information, and suffer no issues whatsoever.
It is like you forget , they already have a Banking License so they can transfer money with no worries of legal ramifications and as long as they record the necessary data.
Fed shows up to a bank, they show Banking License and the Fed thanks them for their time and leaves.
Fed shows up at your house, no banking license & no money transmitter license, your ass gets hauled to jail and fined for failing to operate under the KYC/AML regulations.

Users are Users, they only have an effect on the economic power, when they buy or sell bitcoins.
Unless they are buying or selling in the millions per day, their effect on the economics is too small to notice.
Merchants have a greater effect on economic power because of the higher % , that flows thru them.

All of the Merchants using Coinbase , are not running their own node, they are using Coinbase's node and completely trusting coinbase to maintain it ,
they are not even hooked up to the bitcoin network so they could care less what your basement node is doing.

Example:
I have never ran a bitcoin node, because their is no financial incentive for me to do so. (No interest or transaction fees earned)
I gain nothing from keeping a bitcoin wallet maintained and synced and instead use the exchange's wallet to hold my bitcoins and letting their node be the arbiter.
Am I giving up some security because of this , sure. But the additional security is not worth it to me , as I don't hold bitcoin as a store of value but only use it as a payment network when required. I also never break the cardinal rule: Never leave more coins sitting on a single exchange than what you are willing to lose.
Most Merchants are the same as they immediately convert to fiat to avoid fluctuations in btc price verses fiat, because the input costs to run their business are in fiat not crypto.




Sorry to butt in jbreher, I'll leave you guys to your conversation after this.

Sybil attacks
1. can refuse to relay transactions and slow down block propagation to other nodes.
2. can isolate your node from the network and block you from syncing with the network.
3. can in some rare cases cause you to run on a temporary fork.
(In which case, transactions won't match the rest of the network.
Monitoring a trusted 3rd party block explorer that it block height matches your node is a easy way to block sybil attack.)

(Including addnodes in your conf file to a few trusted IPs, blocks Sybil attacks 2 & 3)  

Sybil attacks can not change the program code on my node therefore they can not change the rules of the network.
IE: They can't change hard coded things like block size or block speed or anything that my node program code will reject.

 

I can honestly say, Hell would literally freeze over before that happens.
But it is good to have goals.  



Definition of the word : Assumption
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

I will replace the term Cost Basis with the Term Input Costs,
to see if you understand that better.

Definition of Input Cost:
Cost of direct material, direct labor, and other overhead items devoted to the production of a good or service.

LN hubs requires a computer & internet access, which no one can deny.
Therefore current prices of a decent VPS are ~$60 per month.
So that $60 is your minimum input cost.
(Notice the time to become proficient running a LN hub was not even included in the input costs.)

So calculating the break even point of what each LN transaction has to meet to match the input cost of $60 is pure math , not assumption.



If someone can impose penalties and Take away your funds,
it directly means that you NEVER had Total Control as you like to keep asserting which is a false statement.

Example: In Onchain Bitcoin where you control your private keys,
No one can Take any funds from you unless you agree to send them the payment.
They can send you a bill, but they can't make you pay, it is your choice.

With LN Multi signature, the LN Hub can grant your funds to the counterparties at any time their rule system dictates without you having any ability at all to block it.
Not the total control myth , you keep propagating, the most you can truly say, is that you have shared control of the LN funds with the hub.



https://medium.com/andreas-tries-blockchain/bitcoin-lightning-network-4-what-happens-when-you-close-half-of-the-lightning-network-b25b330dfad2

20180 minutes is ~ 2 weeks.

So until those time locks expire, he will not regain total access to his funds. IE: Can't spend any until the time locks expire.  

You assert that prices will be extremely low without proof, ie: showing no numbers to support your arguments
my assertions are based upon the history of bitcoin and the banking system, along with the walmart effect.
How many guys can mine bitcoin for $60 per month, small guys were pushed out years ago, it will be the same with LN.

I guess the part where a bank could make $6 million per month charging only $.20 per transaction was over your head. 


 

Personally, I don't think Wind_FURY is dishonest,

I believe Wind_FURY is just really really stupid.  

* Agree with jbreher*


FYI:
@Wind_FURY, why don't you re read https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4554671.msg42433804#msg42433804
like a few hundred times and see if it sink in , what jbreher told you and Franky1 one already pointed out.

In the end the Merchants hold the economic power as they are the ones accepting or refusing the transactions as payment for their services or products.
Number of non-mining nodes are irrelevant. One is as good as a billion , as long as you can access the one and trust it.
All they do is verify the same entry, so how many times , would you need someone to tell you 2+2=4 over & over again before you believe them.
The Merchants are trusting whichever crypto service node, they are using, so multiple merchants are all trusting Coinbase's non-mining node and caring little about what the other nodes report, such as the one in your basement.

It is not an assumption , it is a cost basis from the break even point of maintaining a $60 per month VPS.
Right now people are just doing it for Free and just losing money in the hope profit comes later.

People will only lose money giving you free transactions UNTIL they at least want to break even, and when they want a profit , the hub fees will go even higher.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mega Hubs/Banks are the only ones that are going to make large profits from LN and centralized control of bitcoin while doing it.
(No different than Walmart bankrupting the Mom & Pop Stores by competing at a lower price margin and having a higher volume to still make a profit.)

Your lack of understanding , gets really old.
A small code change is all it takes to make 10 LN notes from 1 bitcoin, only a mutiplier in the program code.
LN is only a representation of a bitcoin, not the real bitcoin , as such code changes can easily multiply the representation.
Fractional Reserve is just a software update away.

Your belief that you control your funds is naive.
Broadcast an old transaction and the LN hub will seize your funds and give it to the counterparty and their is nothing you can do to stop it.
Get DDOS and be unable to broadcast the final transaction and have your counterparty broadcast the previous transaction and steal your funds.
The Fees the hubs take from you , you can't stop the hubs from getting their fees.
Close a channel and immediately use your funds , You can't do it because they are time locked and you do not have full control of your funds.*Until the Time Locks Expire.*

Go ask Franky1 to explain it to you for like the 100th time, he has more patience for stupid people than I do.  

To run what I consider a nice VPS is ~$60 per month.
So just to break even means for the VPS cost only, $60 /30 days = $2 per day
If I get
1000 transactions per day, meaning I have to charge $0.002 per transaction  (30000 transactions per month)
100 transactions per day, meaning I have to charge $0.02 per transaction   (3000 transactions per month)
10 transactions per day, meaning I have to charge $0.20 per transaction     (300 transactions per month)
1 transaction per day , meaning I have to charge $2 per transaction            (30 transactions per month)
1 transaction per every 5 days, meaning I have to charge $10 per transaction (6 transactions per month)

Looking at the above rates gives me a basis line for the competition of small hubs.

But let say I want to make a profit and am not working just to break even
To make a profit I charge based on the LN transaction volume , since small nodes can't go lower than breaking even
1000 transactions per day at $0.02 per transaction  (30000 transactions per month)
100 transactions per day at $0.20 per transaction (3000 transactions per month)
10 transactions per day at $2 per transaction (300 transactions per month)
The above all give me $20 per day or $600 per month or $7200 per year

$7200 is not really a high enough wage to support a family, still below the poverty line.

so to make a living wage in California  
1000 transactions per day at $0.20 per transaction  (30000 transactions per month)
100 transactions per day at $2 per transaction (3000 transactions per month)  
10 transactions per day at $20 per transaction (300 transactions per month)

The above all give me $200 per day or $6000 per month or $72000 per year
LN could support someone quite nicely , but only at $2 per transaction and if they can get ~3000 transactions every month.

So from the above the people working for free with small hubs will
break even charging between $0.02 & $2 per transaction.
While Large Hubs with 1000 transaction per day
can charge $0.20 per transactions and make a living for their owner.

Even considering 3rd world people running LN nodes and being happy with the $7200 only per year due to exchange rates.
It means that once the people get tired of just working for free,
that the bare minimum fees per LN transaction will be between $0.20 & $2 per hub.

Not the super low costs that were predicted, and still higher than many altcoins, including litecoin onchain which was ~2 to 5 cents per transaction last I looked.

Now a Mega Hub /Bank
that process 1 million transactions per day at $0.20 each transaction would earn their corporation $200000 per day or $6 Million Dollars per month
(Most channels & Users would centralize to this Mega Hub as to avoid additional fees further choking out the smaller players.)

If you can not see than LN was designed to be Banking 2.0 after reading the above, you were not paying attention to who can really profit from it at lower fees.  

FYI:  https://cryptoslate.com/bitcoin-lightning-capacity-rises-68-in-1-month-progress-in-scaling-and-micropayments/